Charcoal HQ

Catija

17:00

@Glorfindel Nope. It was posted today. I was here when it happened.

Andy

No, it's only been up a day

Glorfindel

ah, right, sorry

Jake Symons

@Andy You need a comment telling people to save their upvotes :)

SmokeDetector

New metasmoke user 'nvoigt' created

Jake Symons

Although the idea is obviously to get community opinion, not for the rep. That's just an added bonus

Catija

17:01

... Weird @Andy your profile says you've earned 202 :P

Andy

@Catija I bet that lasts until a rep recalc takes place.

Catija

Probably.

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in body: i'm having some python 3 code problems by Zachary Pease on stackoverflow.com

fp- by Glorfindel

quartata

@ArtOfCode When building a Rails app, where does the finalized JavaScript go?

app/assets/javascripts/application.js?

SmokeDetector

New metasmoke user 'Korcholis' created

Undo

17:08

Let's take an inventory of the issues raised so far:

(1) Defaulting to 5 based on the mSE post

(2) Visibility of the system to moderators

Looks like everything is a variation on those two?

The "use dedicated accounts for flagged" suggestion is a variation of (2)

If that's all, we're doing pretty well. Pretty sure Shog will back us on (1), and (2) is so far entirely addressable technically.

SmokeDetector

New metasmoke user 'Duncan X Simpson' created

Undo

It looks like a lot of concerns, but I think it's actually those two things in different wordings

Andy

@Undo It's a pretty big variation of #2. Using other accounts is a way to provide visibility, but I don't think it's the same as just "visibility"

Undo

@Andy I think this would be doable and reasonable:

Let's explore that a bit @MadScientist. I'm not promising this, but it's an option: What if each post got one flag from the SmokeDetector account (with relevant profile links), and the rest done the same way as now? I think that'd solve your concern without burdening us with creating 5-10 accounts and getting rep. — Undo 1 hour ago

It's still in the broad "Moderators should know this is working on their site and how" category

Andy

I've got to admit, I'm surprised by the suggestion from moderators to make these dedicated, essentially sock puppets. But, I understand where they are coming from too.

K.Dᴀᴠɪs

17:18

Your website at metasmoke.erwaysoftware.com is throwing errors whenever I go to half the pages on it. Doesn't exactly instill confidence. — Duncan X Simpson 4 mins ago

Sounds like a troll to me... I've never had an error

Undo

@K.Dᴀᴠɪs Could be load

Catija

I guess I don't really understand that. I can pretty easily find stuff that's been deleted by just ... using search.

Undo

Seems faster than ever, though. Pages are nice and warm.

@DuncanXSimpson Mind throwing me a stack trace? — Undo 41 secs ago

quartata

Yeah MS has been performing really well the past couple days

Nginx is getting to do its job probably

Catija

Is there a way to find out if the auto flags were removed from a post?

Andy

17:23

Not via the API

Henders

metasmoke.erwaysoftware.com/reason/35

> ActiveRecord::StatementInvalid in ReasonsController#show

When logged out

SmokeDetector

New metasmoke user 'esqew' created

Andy

@Henders And logged in

Undo

error 28?

Andy

Mysql2::Error: Got error 28 from storage engine: SELECT posts.id, posts.created_at, posts.link, posts.title, posts.site_id, posts.username, posts.stack_exchange_user_id, IF(LENGTH(body)>1,1,0) as body_exists FROM posts` INNER JOIN posts_reasons ON posts.id = posts_reasons.post_id WHERE posts_reasons.reason_id = 35 ORDER BY created_at DESC LIMIT 100 OFFSET 0 `

Henders

17:25

> Got error 28 from storage engine

quartata

of course

Undo

hah, disk space

hold on

raddish0

wouldn't it make more sense to use machine learning + nlp than hand-written regex?

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] URL in title: wget ethereum.github.io/go-ethereum/downloads/$(uname -m)/latest/ arch dependent image by Stachu Barański on ethereum.SE

raddish0

(sort of off topic)

Henders

17:26

Anyone got 50p for the storage metre?

SmokeDetector

fp- by Glorfindel

Undo

@raddish0 We've tried that a few times, actually.

Totally on topic

raddish0

how did it go?

Undo

Each time we've tried it, the results have been wildly inferior to handwritten regexes.

raddish0

oh, maybe I'll start working on something. I'll tell you here if it works

Undo

17:27

I'm mostly incompetent around the ML world. If you've got knowledge there and want to give it a try, I can give you any data you ask for.

Awesome! Let me know what you need.

Magisch

Anyone heard anything from tanmay lately?

Wasn't he working on something like this?

Undo

I haven't

raddish0

alright. is there a place where I can find copies of flagged posts?

JAD

hmmm, I guess the problem is getting hold on a sizeable amount of true negatives

Magisch

figures

@JAD Download the entire data dump and use the posts without deleted table?

JAD

17:28

yeah nevermind. I can't think

Undo

@raddish0 I can give you posts we marked as spam, and you can get not-spam true negatives from SEDE

raddish0

It would be nice to have one place where I can get some of the flagged posts

ok

Magisch

we have like 85k of those

so brace yourself :D

raddish0

lol

Undo

Fixing the MS error now

quartata

17:30

@raddish0 You can fetch them from the MS API, but be warned: it's very unbalanced

raddish0

alright

Undo

MS rebooting

quartata

Even heavy class weighting doesn't help much

raddish0

I have to leave now, I'll be looking into it. ;)

Undo

@raddish0 I'll ping when when I have a dump ready. SQL okay?

raddish0

17:32

yuo

*yup

Undo

Awesome, thanks!

Henders

@Undo Looks good!

Undo

Getting a working ML implementation would be awesome.

quartata

@ArtOfCode is domain parsing retroactive?

Undo

yes

K.Dᴀᴠɪs

17:32

Well that could be interesting

Magisch

definitely off topic but anyone here in data protection compliance or anyone got a good grip of the new EU rules due in may?

quartata

@Undo My current philosophy on ML (and the one that I've been working towards on and off) is that it needs to be used as a "discovery" reason to find bad domains

nothing will be any better than the blacklist once we know the URL

raddish0

just FYI: I'm a 14yr old who has done extensive research on ML/AI, not an adult, though I want to work in this field

Catija

That's OK... @Undo is a dog. :P

raddish0

lol

Henders

17:34

In fact, a lot of SE is held together by dogs...

raddish0

hope that explains my slow typing

Magisch

what is it with 14 year olds and artificial intelligence

WELZ

woof

Magisch

you're the second 14 year old taking a crack at this :D

raddish0

I am making a heuristic learning AI simlar to Eurisko

Who was the first?

Undo

17:36

Young people are awesome. I'm 18, started doing this 4-5 years ago... Pretty easy to do the math

raddish0

alright, my dad's gonna kill me if I don't leave now, bye

Undo

Cya :)

try not to get murdered

K.Dᴀᴠɪs

Ugh I feel old now

Magisch

@Undo I think I might be ancient by this room's standard

Andy

@K.Dᴀᴠɪs Welcome to the club :)

Tinkeringbell

17:38

@WELZ weren't you the one that collected ages a while ago? What was the outcome?

WELZ

@Tinkeringbell absolute joke!

Some immature people...!!

Undo

we can't share it, turns out everyone is under 10 years old /s

quartata

@raddish0 tanmay bakshi

Tinkeringbell

:( I'll just continue feeling old then

Magisch

@Tinkeringbell I think I'm almost as old as you are

K.Dᴀᴠɪs

17:40

Someone almost half my age is competent in ML. I got some work to do

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch Nice, you just found a subtle way of calling me old, thanks...

Magisch

@K.Dᴀᴠɪs don't compare yourself to people on this website, you'll only get depressed

K.Dᴀᴠɪs

too late xD

Magisch

it's like going to harvard. Suddenly you're not the smart one anymore

WELZ

-_-

SmokeDetector

17:42

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Few unique characters in answer, repeating characters in answer: Access object.variable in an array of objects by Bobby Garcia on stackoverflow.com

M.A.R.

@SmokeDetector K IDK

The now featured coal meta posts seems larger

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Phone number detected in title: Arlo Phone Number +1833350-8094 Service For Arlo by angelina on stackoverflow.com

M.A.R.

@SmokeDetector K

K.Dᴀᴠɪs

!!/test arlo

SmokeDetector

> Would not be caught as a post, title or username.

Undo

17:49

If we stay on this trajectory, I think we're going to get 5 flags. There are no huge outstanding concerns; I bet we'll be able to go to Shog and say "We addressed these concerns with x and y, good to go?"

He'll say "yes", we'll turn it on and ping the concerned people.

And maybe don't turn it on for the ones that have expressed huge concerns (JG?) to let them ask their communities.

Magisch

@Undo hm?

Undo

forces a chat separation

Magisch

hm

Undo

Proposal: Change title from "A machine can flag spam automatically. Can it do it better?" to "A machine can flag spam automatically. Can it do better?"

The two it's in the last sentence seem awkward to me, but I'm crazy. Thoughts?

Magisch

@Undo sounds good

quartata

17:56

@Undo definitely, didn't even notice

I've been reading it the latter the entire time

Undo

done

SmokeDetector

CI on 79af969 succeeded.

Merged SmokeDetector #1679.

CI on d8242c0 failed.

M.A.R.

@Undo still sounds kinda too much to me

Undo

Elaborate?

Supposing no new big concerns are raised, everything there right now can be addressed.

Magisch

@Undo The core disagreement is between opt in and opt out

People proposing opt in won't be happy until we make it opt in for the entire network

M.A.R.

18:02

@Undo 1000 tps won't cause a problem, 1 fp will

I'm not bringing anything new to the table

Just reminding that this could be risky

John Dvorak

ideally, moderators would be able to review 6-flag nukes on their sites no matter where they came from ... but it isn't important enough, apparently

SmokeDetector

CI on b1c2553 failed.

Undo

@Magisch Shog will probably back us on that.

quartata

gahhh

duplicate PRs

someone fix that, I can't

K.Dᴀᴠɪs

@Undo You can stir up the pot and make it "Can I do better? Hint: No You Can't" :)

Magisch

18:10

@Undo You know him better then I do

M.A.R.

You should always be scared of 99 something percents.

John Dvorak

Proposed wording: can it do so better?

Magisch

not looking forward to doing my hundred and fifty or so custom flags for the week

wtb a userscript to custom flag a post from the user's reputation page directly

M.A.R.

@Magisch "What The Butt"?

K.Dᴀᴠɪs

@Magisch that would actually be useful.

@M.A.R. want to buy .... I think

M.A.R.

18:14

Waiting to Board

K.Dᴀᴠɪs

Writing to Bob

M.A.R.

Washed Through Birds

I have no idea how to get washed through

Probably ugly

Waggling Tough Bandits

K.Dᴀᴠɪs

Wingdings and Text

Magisch

I have no idea how to userscript tbh

might be time to get into that

M.A.R.

@Magisch I think one of the steps requires turning on a computer

Mithrandir

18:17

@raddish0 cool; I was 14 when I started, too (15 now)! Welcome! :D

quartata

@Undo can you fix this CI failure, there's a duplicate watchlist entry

I can't fix it on mobile

Mithrandir

@raddish0 If you want to take a look at our last attempt, developed by Tanmay Bakshi (who, incidentally, is also 14), it's here - github.com/tanmayb123/DeepSPADE

SmokeDetector

@quartata teward/Solar Flare 3e4fba4 (SmokeDetector: Auto watch of tvideos\.net by WELZ --autopull)

quartata

!!/rev

ah that's why

Undo

@Magisch It's pretty simple, really: We were planning to do 170+ meta posts, Shog gave us this alternative.

He's pretty consistent once he makes a decision.

quartata

18:22

Please be careful that there are no outstanding pull requests with the same blacklist/watch before you do a direct blacklist. It lays an unpleasant trap for any other code admins.

2

Magisch

@Undo Haven't had much to do with him tbh

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Link at end of answer: DNS request sample traffic by Sampath Madala on opendata.SE

Magisch

So I'll take your word for it

to normal users, shog comes across more like a force of nature

Undo

Oh, he absolutely is.

quartata

the CM of all CMs

Undo

18:24

Still, if there are dark clouds above you, it's probably gonna rain. If the sun is shining, it's probably gonna get warmer. You can predict nature ;)

Magisch

not someone you talk to like a normal user - he's rarely got the time

M.A.R.

@SmokeDetector F meh

Mithrandir

@Magisch I prefer to think of Shog more like this:

Smaug - I am Fire! I am death!

►

M.A.R.

@Undo No, dark clouds are robot apocalypse. They always were

Magisch

@Undo or it's perfectly sunny and then you get struck by dry lightning

SmokeDetector

18:25

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Few unique characters in answer: Disable "OS verification is turned off" screen on Chromebook by Cat on superuser.com

M.A.R.

And with the weather I'm used to, sun shining means you freeze because of the heavy snow about to drop in two minutes

Undo

@quartata done, I think. github.com/Charcoal-SE/SmokeDetector/commit/…

Roy Sullivan

Roy Cleveland Sullivan (February 7, 1912 – September 28, 1983) was a United States park ranger in Shenandoah National Park in Virginia. Between 1942 and 1977, Sullivan was hit by lightning on seven different occasions and survived all of them. For this reason, he gained a nickname "Human Lightning Conductor" and "Human Lightning Rod". Sullivan is recognized by Guinness World Records as the person struck by lightning more recorded times than any other human being. == Personal life == Sullivan was born in Greene County, Virginia, on February 7, 1912. He started working as a ranger in Shenan...

M.A.R.

@SmokeDetector K this is not your diary dude

SmokeDetector

CI on 980ed29 succeeded. Message contains 'autopull', pulling...

quartata

@Undo yes thank you

SmokeDetector

18:26

[ SmokeDetector ] SmokeDetector started at rev 980ed29 (Undo1: -duplicate --autopull) (running on teward/Solar Flare)

Restart: API quota is 11046.

quartata

Can't do reviews either, GH web mobile is lame

DJMcMayhem

@SmokeDetector k

SmokeDetector

New metasmoke user 'recursive' created

New metasmoke user 'Violet Giraffe' created

M.A.R.

Ha, [featured] is evil. It has multiplied the -/+ ratio

Floern

uh.. how did I end up as a core flagger?

M.A.R.

18:38

@Floern you're cool, that's why

Floern

:P

M.A.R.

Ha, I should really be asking that. You have an awesome userscript

Maybe coreness would be >1000 feedbacks? CC @Undo

I was either not present or not paying attention in the core definition discussion, and last I checked, it wasn't defined

Glorfindel

Core <=> 60 feedbacks per month.

Feb 23 at 15:24, by ArtOfCode

If you hit 60 feedbacks in 30 days, you get the core role

(if you don't, the role gets revoked)

Floern

ah thx, that explains it

Magisch

18:56

@Mithrandir sounds like scifi will be opting out if we allow that

Mithrandir

@Magisch annoyed sounds

I'm a 20ker on SFF but a large percentage of the people active on meta... kinda don't like me :P

Magisch

@Mithrandir No idea why that could possibly be the case :D

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] No whitespace in answer: Encryption in Vivo android phones by Sonu on android.SE (@iBug)

naa- by Floern

Andy

@Mithrandir Can you edit that to include the spam tag?

SmokeDetector

tpu- by Glorfindel

Loong

19:05

Feb 16 at 21:36, by Catija

Tell members that if they don't have X rep on the site, stay away from the vote buttons...

quartata

@Mithrandir ok I'm not sure what the deal is here but this is flat out misinformation

hopefully the mods will handle that

Glorfindel

@Loong X = 103?

Loong

Feb 16 at 21:35, by Undo

Also, we're going to have to figure out how to not be a vote cartel on these meta posts

quartata

also isn't this the person who got chat banned and mos eisley nuked? He's actively insulting "certain moderators" in the comments

Glorfindel

it's an ex-mod

quartata

19:13

did a nice job of finding the only auto flagged FP SFF has ever gotten

like, of all time

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in title, phone number detected in title: official 1800 921 4167 quickbooks enterprise phone number by qckspprt on stackoverflow.com

Catija

... Does it seem a bit redundant to have the two reasons be that the same word shows up in the title and the body? If the question is about that, then it's probably going to be in both ...

SmokeDetector

New metasmoke user 'LowlyDBA' created

Andy

19:28

@Mithrandir I don't have 20K, but I do have some numbers on SFF. I posted a response

Processed Meat

0

Q: Do we want Smoke Detector to auto flag spam?

As some of you may have seen already there is this post on mother meta. To save a bad explanation by me here's the TL;DR from the post. Charcoal is the organisation behind SmokeDetector. Since January 2017, we've been casting up to 3 flags automatically on posts that our systems are confident...

terdon

@Andy I think you forgot the link to the dashboard.

Mith added it.

Magisch

@Andy valorum seems to really, really hate bots

terdon

Maybe if you called it a robot?

Andy

Thanks @Mithrandir.

SmokeDetector

19:35

New metasmoke user 'vkehayas' created

John Dvorak

@ProcessedMeat should I refrain from voting on those?

Andy

Yes.

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Manually reported answer: How can I debug a .BAT script? by DenkDirNix on stackoverflow.com

tpu- by Jake Symons

Magisch

@JohnDvorak too late

How democratic is it if the people asking for the change discuss voting and meta posts while this is entirely speculative I would not be surprised if the voting swayed in favour. — Edlothiad 7 mins ago

whether we vote or not (we shouldn't) we'll be accused of it

Andy

Ignore it

Jake Symons

19:42

I guess a backlash is almost always inevitable with these kind of issues :)

Andy

You're right we will. We've provided guidance to not do so above. It was a direct reply to the posted meta question. The best we can do is follow that guidance.

SmokeDetector

fp- by Makyen

Conflicting feedback on How can I debug a .BAT script?.

Magisch

I have 0 votes cast on scifi meta so if anyone votes it's not me

SmokeDetector

naa- by Glorfindel

Conflicting feedback on How can I debug a .BAT script?.

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Link at end of answer, pattern-matching website in answer: How can I stop harassment about my medical condition by the boss's friend? by sulmank178 on workplace.SE

tpu- by Glorfindel

New metasmoke user 'Hosch250' created

bwDraco

!!/location

SmokeDetector

19:51

@bwDraco teward/Solar Flare

Magisch

@Andy It's a lose lose situation

Andy

@Magisch Come on, man. I said ignore it. Why add more to the fire when there are already two people saying the same thing?

@Magisch No it's not. They are talking about it.

Magisch

@Andy I don't think that was adding fuel to the fire

Undo

Sometimes it's best to just let someone else think they won. That's a powerful lesson I should have learned earlier.

Magisch

But I can delete the comment if you like

@Undo I hate doing that. It's so disingenous

Undo

19:54

I do too. But it works.

And I've gotta ask you to make an attempt, or stay away from those posts entirely. Hope you understand where I'm coming from there.

Magisch

I was trying to assuade fears there

K.Dᴀᴠɪs

"I really don't like the idea of robots flagging stuff on our site without supervision". The issue is that SD is supervised. It's supervised by anyone willing to hop into this chatroom. This is not a secret project.

Magisch

There was a comment calling out all users in this room so I thought it was going to assuage some fears for them to know we don't vote on these

Undo

It's valid - but if someone shows that they're not listening, don't give them anything more to not listen to

It's just unnecessary wear on your keyboard at that point.

Magisch

@Undo Assuming good faith and all I wasn't completly convinced

Maybe I'm not cynical enough

Stack does something to your assumptions. A lot of my hard earned cynicism from reddit and mcf went away

Catija

19:57

When someone's already implying that you're not acting in good faith... probably a good time to walk away.

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector ] SmokeDetector started in standby mode at rev 0233577 (SmokeDetector: Auto blacklist of tinnitus\W?911 by tripleee --autopull) (running on bwDraco/Linode)

New metasmoke user 'Slater' created

Andy

@Undo 2+x: Oversight/protection from a human mistake. A post is fine with 4 flags because it requires 2 users to flag still, but not 5 because one human could mistakenly nuke something

John Dvorak

@Undo I'm bad at picking up the hint that they don't

Undo

It's probably learned from moderating SO (more importantly mSO)

And I'm probably a little too cynical. Take my advice with that in mind.

Mithrandir

Note to self: write a SFF story about Smokey taking over the world, ask about it on SFF, watch fireworks

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