in the second case I simply edited the book link out

@ArtOfCode Are we going to action any of that criticism?

If it's actionable, yes

or is it already decided what we'll do and this is just going through the motions

If the general reception is no, we won't do it

@Federico Was there a third google.com/url?q=https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/…?

Or at least that's what I've assumed that we'll do

@Mithrandir first account

@Magisch If you mean Journeyman's answer, it's been heavily discussed in Tavern just a while ago

could !!/watch Ted\WWells

@JohnDvorak I've read most of it, my question is who gets to decide what and whatnot

Because the meta post reads like "Here is what we're planning, you're given the opportunity to agree"

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] URL in title, bad keyword in body, bad keyword in title, blacklisted website in body, blacklisted website in title, +2 more: maximizedmuscleideas.com/lyaxtin/ by aulzynch on graphicdesign.SE

tpu- by K.Dᴀᴠɪs

@Magisch I think at one point we said that we'll ask for a CM to make a final judgement on the reaction to the post

I think publicizing it to this extent may even be a mistake

Do you propose putting the system in and not telling the sites?

@Glorfindel I think you may be interested in this FR:

+1, good idea

@JohnDvorak In analogue to what shog basicly said "treat the flags as if they came from a normal user" I don't see the benefit in telling people

The entire round about discussion was basically invalidated by this - if the flags are treated like they came from a normal user (declined / approved as usual) then any site differences can be self corrected by us by analyzing declined / helpful rates.

@Magisch put it this way: given what you saw in here on March 1, imagine the reaction if we just did it without telling anyone.

@ArtOfCode You could deflect any negative reaction by linking to shog's post though

You could attempt to, yes, but it wouldn't stop the tide

People, on the whole, are not logical beings. While logically Shog's message combined with all the other stuff we know about this project does invalidate most if not all arguments, that won't stop people having different opinions.

If you're supposed to handle these flags like normal (like shog's post says - I read that as moderator guidance, so, binding) then any further discussion is purely courtesy

Courtesy... is not a bad thing.

I get where you're coming from but part of why march 1 annoyed me so much is people acting entitled like they have a say in what we as individual users flag

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad NS for domain in body, bad keyword in body, bad keyword in title, blacklisted website in body, pattern-matching website in body: Dream Fit Garcinia and your feet flat on the floor by vnjyrqqvt on apple.SE

If I think a post is spam I'll flag it and the mod's prerogative is to decline that flag if they feel it's invalid

There is a difference between what would be right and what would be ethical. Sadly, human beings aren't always logical and those things aren't always the same thing.

tpu- by Glorfindel

@Magisch they kinda do

@JohnDvorak Yeah they're free to decline my flag, if I do that often enough I'll even get flag banned

But beyond that - why?

Anything beyond declines is courtesy

just like kicked out of a country instead of getting shot at the gate

I wonder what exactly the basis of this discussion is

Which discussion?

Do we seek permission or acceptance? Because some people think either or the other

March 1 read very much like they thought we need to seek permission - but we already have it by way of how stack works. I think the fact that the only reason we're even entertaining the argument is because we want broad acceptance got lost

Kinda both

If the reaction is "this is terrible plz no" then we're not going to do it in face of that whether we have technical permission or not

Feels like we're bypassing the normal way user -> moderator interactions should work

Oh, we went beyond that a long time ago

Maybe we need to return to that - we do our thing and the mods handle it the way they handle normal users too

I'm being quite serious there. What we do here has no equivalent. That is going to unnerve some people and provoke discussions about whether existing policy covers it, whether we like it or not.

sorry, is there a brief tl;dr of what happened on March 1st?

@Federico not really

We can do this with or without moderation buy-in, but when we're basically operating a bot that can destroy posts at whim with minimal oversight from non-moderators, doing it without buy-in is perilous.

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword with email in body, email in body: Let's Reach the Huge Market in China by Jiminy Wong on gamedev.SE

tpu- by K.Dᴀᴠɪs

@doppelgreener What's the worst that could happen - everyone that signed on knows the risks. In the worst case a bunch of declined flags will happen

In fact doing it despite protests is a sign we'd be going off a deep end, especially to the people with those protests.

action beyond that is outside the scope of reacting to misplaced spam flags

I get why we want buy in but it shouldn't be paramount

@ArtOfCode thanks

Accomodating people is nice but only to an extent

Similarly ignoring people is only acceptable to a limited extent

@Magisch If the response is "eh", we'll have a discussion (or get a CM to rule), but I suspect we'll go ahead. If it's "plz no", then going against that would be... a very not good idea

!!/watch (?:1\W*)?852\W*6446\W*7029

@K.Dᴀᴠɪs You don't have code privileges, but I've created PR#1675 for you.

@ArtOfCode I mean I guess

Oh how I wish Stack Overflow actually cared for users. For answerers, I mean, not for homework dumpers.

Do we have a 1 person per comment chain rule for meta?

Feels like we should have to avoid dogpiling or feeling like dogpiling

No, not necessarily. Just... y'know, don't overwhelm people

We have rules?

occasionally

Rule 1: We don't speak about SD

The way other people treat us you'd think we're a global conglomerate

we pretty much are, in the scope of SE

And not a group of mostly students and bored people flagging spam because it feels like a slighly lesser waste of time than other things

@Magisch *than

^ Kinda proving your point

:D

Whether we like it or not, we're an organised bunch of people with a powerful set of tools... and people are going to treat us like we have responsibility for that, because... uh... we do

@Art in your last comment it might be worth emphasising how self-promotion style posts won't go anywhere near the autoflagging threshold

In the context of self promotion the autoflagging discussion is pointless anyways

@angussidney Technical details. I'll go into 'em if someone asks why or how

I wonder if even a single post containing only self promotion has ever made it near the threshold

I wouldn't be surprised, @Magisch.

But then again, isn't that basically spam?

would have to be pretty unlucky

Technically, yes, practically, it's complicated

@Cerbrus ....if so, March 1st wouldn't have been a thing

If only it were that simple

@ArtOfCode I'm here because of the responsibility and capacity to do something for the network I like.

right, we'd have gone from Feb 28 to Mar 2

wasn't march 1st about manual flagging?

Yes and no. You don't want to punish people for not knowing the site rules past what we force them to read.

(sorry, I'm feeling snarky)

@Magisch commenting on self-promotion

@angussidney What'd I miss?

-100 rep for linking to your library and not saying it's yours is pretty harsh

ahh even that

@ArtOfCode dark part of myself wants to leave the most condescending comment possible that doesn't get deleted as not nice

with some "AAAAHH ALL THE DISCUSSIONS" in the middle

But thats so unhelpful for this

yeah maaaaybe not

Right

@Magisch our old "please be nice" comment basically amounted to that

Time to waste some time reading.

see you next week

good luck, I nearly lost it twice being in there

@Cerbrus start here

What's the "policy"? The "Only comment on sites you know" one?

aye

@ArtOfCode wow that was dramatic

'kay

ironically, bioinformatics is now a site I know

I sure hope that policy isn't final

streisand effect and all that

non-moderation comments excluded

Plus, I've learned for a fact that Churchill wouldn't have won against Terdon

even that policy can only be a suggestion

we don't have any enforcement mechanism here - it's basicly all about voluntary compliance

New proposed policy: commenting is fine, except on bi.se? (/me expects getting shouted at)

Gary Oldman should get an Oscar, BTW.

@Magisch true, hence the no rules thing

@Magisch but at least we have something to point to to shield ourselvs in another public image issue

@JohnDvorak get your site names straight

It's bionfrmtc.SE

Sloppy short form

b12s.se

@Magisch Enforcement = MS account deletion

@K.Dᴀᴠɪs isn't that like a permaban?

@K.Dᴀᴠɪs won'd do much to actually enforce anything

standard ton-of-bricks enforcement

@JohnDvorak well, it dissociates the user's actions from SD

again, public image

And well, anyone could open an incognito tab, watch Smokey for posts, then be a jerk on the site

sure

just like anyone can flag anything with red flags, but then it's SE's problem

that's disownment, not enforcement

"others could do worse things" is not a good argument.

weeeeelll

if you want real enforcement...

we've got access tokens for all your accounts on metasmoke... we could just go delete the comment :P

yeah......

Nice

Dictatorship

Hail Art

@ArtOfCode Hey can you post some LQP for me as well?

@ArtOfCode I like that idea ... in a morbid kind of way

@JohnDvorak excellent verbalisation of ton-of-bricks enforcement

@K.Dᴀᴠɪs sure, I'll insult some mods and get you suspended while I'm at it

@Mithrandir I probably woundn't bring up sockpuppeting on a post about autoflagging, given that the line unclear and we don't want to bring up that discussion again

@ArtOfCode :o

Right, so it was all just a comment that wasn't even related to Charcoal...

*Shrug*

@ArtOfCode do it with style. Like telling @Mith that he can't read, Madara that he doesn't know scrap about anime, Journeyman that MS paint is better than whatever he's using, and GD mods that they suck at drawing

@M.A.R. I'd have to tell myself that I know nothing about computers, too, just to be fair

That implies you know a lot about computers right now

@M.A.R. OH SNAP

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad NS for domain in body, blacklisted website in body, link at end of body, pattern-matching website in body: The mix quality in labor offers few by Larat1945 on askubuntu.com

tpu- by Mithrandir

@SmokeDetector K

@M.A.R. touche

@Mithrandir suspend me! I double dare ya

@Art Can ^this be taken as a formal request?

;)

totally

nuke account with prejudicial fire

Hah, I am UNSUSPEN . . . UNSUSPENSDABLE

@K.Dᴀᴠɪs smokey is open source

@M.A.R. sure, not suspendable, but I've got a nice orange button here that says "destroy user"

In reality, the most charcoal can do is kindly suggest how you're going to conduct yourself

I am an immovable object

In fact, nothing stops anyone else from making their own charcoal with their own guidelines

I wonder if that works...

and yes all chat user profiles have a nondescript red scribble in the top corner

Thats why I found the "restrict access" threat from the one mod so condescending btw

Like they think they can ban people from analyzing post data on their site

I don't think that was the intention

@ArtOfCode What library is used to render that freehand scribble?

@ArtOfCode well, on my side, you've created the infinitely spinning circle

just considering the ramifications of limiting access to Charcoal Smokey reports

I don't wanna turn on the VPN with all its hassle

@Cerbrus Polyline.js with PLFreehand plugin

@ArtOfCode The ramifications of that would be that you can't actually do it

And suggesting like it is some random mod could just decide sounds mighty condescending

@Magisch You could. You couldn't stop people creating their own, no, but you could limit access to Charcoal reports and that would prevent the majority of people seeing it

meta.stackexchange.com/questions/307585/… -- 20 years into the future. Charcoal has become the 6th tech giant. Google manages your searches, and Charcoal your spam.

Art went mad, killed Undo, and sold his soul to Pharma spammers

poor Undo

@ArtOfCode Until someone else runs smokey on their own machine in their own room

@Magisch "the majority"

@Mithrandir he's too nice to go mad. He would've.

@M.A.R. Pharma spammers? Please, credit me with some class. I sold it to the ethical hackers and they paid me a million Bitcoins.

@ArtOfCode I think you underestimate the streisand effect

@ArtOfCode the YouTube miner guys?

@Magisch no... needs to be reasonably widely known that an active censor is attempting to censor a thing. We'd have to be complicit to limit access to Charcoal, so that's not going to be much of a thing.

@ArtOfCode The way the mod phrased it it sounded very much like it'd be against our will

that... literally ain't possible

QFT and stuff

@ArtOfCode It was mentioned they could just suspend / destroy the bot account

Which was the point when I said that'd probably be a way to lose your diamond before undo told me to stfu

No mod in their right mind would do that.

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Few unique characters in answer, no whitespace in answer, repeating characters in answer: C-simplest way to http post image and consume response by Nitesh jain on stackoverflow.com

Look, this is blown out of proportion. It was a idle wonder, not a deliberate threat.

tpu- by A J

Going around saying "we have the technical power to go ahead anyway even if people hate the idea" is a good way to get the entire network very annoyed at us. We want to maintain good relationship with mods and the people on the network, not just to plow ahead disregarding everything except our one specific goal.

That is too long to be wrong.

@ArtOfCode I shall take it that way then

The reason there aren't more restrictions around that is that most people who have the tech to do something against community consensus are single people who don't cause any major effect. Charcoal reaches literally over a hundred people. We don't have the luxury of our actions being invisible.