English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

3:00 PM

Nobody who studies Chinese uses IPA.

at least, not here.

For instance, my son does not know about creationism yet. Also, he was pushed up to second grade for reading, first grade for math, because his ability level suited.

RegDwigнt

@Robusto I'm sorry, are you saying I can play the flute?

tchrist

If you say so. It’s all ~~chink~~ Greek to me.

KitFox

And they don't make him sit still.

tchrist

Actually, that’s unfair to Greek, or perhaps to me.

KitFox

3:01 PM

@tchrist Please be careful with that word.

Robusto

@RegDwigнt For all I know, you can play the flute. But you still need some work on your analogies.

RegDwigнt

I am not using any analogies at all.

tchrist

@KitFox I know. That’s why I crossed it out.

RegDwigнt

I am just making conversation.

I say, circular reasoning is circular and that is all.

Robusto

@RegDwigнt So "If I can't play the flute, I can't just say "yeah but I can play the piano". I still can't play the flute" wasn't an analogy?

KitFox

3:02 PM

Also, he gets lots of physical activity and creative thinking work in his daily routine.

RegDwigнt

An analogy to what?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwigнt The point is this: if someone sets up a system where you need to be able to play music to pass, but requires that everyone use a flute, only flute players can get in. Maybe that's fine, but maybe they should stop and consider that approximately nobody in the US plays flute, but approximately all of them play piano or guitar.

Matt Эллен

or the spoons

everyone can play kazoo

KitFox

I can't.

RegDwigнt

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 and that is how you stay the only country on Earth that still uses Imperial.

tchrist

3:03 PM

macbook# make light conversation
make: Circular conversation <- light dependency dropped.
making conversation
making light
make: `conversation' is up to date.

KitFox

I am hopeless on the kazoo. Also the triangle.

Matt Эллен

@KitFox first step is buying a kazoo

KitFox

And sandpaper blocks.

kwak

@GeorgePompidou disorders? you called me

Matt Эллен

I don't think I've ever seen sandpaper blocks

KitFox

3:03 PM

@tchrist hahaha

@MattЭллен You weren't one of the slow kids, I imagine.

tchrist

macbook# cat Makefile
conversation: light
	@echo making conversation

light: conversation
	@echo making light

kwak

engineeringtoolbox.com/particle-sizes-d_934.html sizes matter

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwigнt Well, not me. My country is Metric. But actually, that's a good comparison. Would you argue that Wikipedia should always use metric for everything? Or would you agree that sometimes it's way more practical for the huge English-speaking American audience if they include imperial?

tchrist

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Did you know that imperial is British for what in American we call English?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@tchrist lol. You call them English units?

Matt Эллен

3:05 PM

metric for all!

RegDwigнt

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Only if they also include Russian measurements in verst and sazhen. Hundreds of thousands of people around the world still use those.

Matt Эллен

down with the imperium

tchrist

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Duh! You really didn’t know that??

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@tchrist We call them Imperial.

RegDwigнt

There's nothing wrong with catering to minorities, but you can't just stop at catering to exactly one.

You want to show both C and F, then pretty please also show me R.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:06 PM

@RegDwigнt Um. But what about catering to majorities.

KitFox

We're hardly a minority.

tchrist

I’m sure you do. We don’t. And shouldn’t. Since an imperial gallon or froughtnot is not the same measure.

kwak

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/41/… you can see smokers from the space

RegDwigнt

@KitFox very American thinking.

tchrist

@KitFox Especially in America.

KitFox

3:07 PM

@RegDwigнt No need to be snippy.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwigнt Why can't you stop catering at just one, anyway? Who says you need to include them all?

Andrew Leach

@MattЭллен Absolutely not.

tchrist

@RegDwigнt Wouldn’t A♭ be good enough for minority use here?

kwak

stop dogering

RegDwigнt

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 nobody says anything. We're just asking each other questions.

tchrist

3:08 PM

Thus spake Socrates.

Andrew Leach

I think @Matt and I are on opposite sides of The Great Divide instilled by our schooling.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwigнt Yes, the ol' Journalist's Question Mark

tchrist

@AndrewLeach Etonian, eh?

Matt Эллен

@AndrewLeach It seems so!

Andrew Leach

@tchrist No, older. I still remember twelve pence in a shilling (just).

RegDwigнt

3:09 PM

@KitFox how is that snippy? You are a minority. That's a fact.

KitFox

@RegDwigнt I'm pretty sure that we are competitive in the world market.

terdon

Who's a minority? People who use Imperial?

RegDwigнt

Majority is not about competitiveness.

kwak

Foxes are minorities? yes indubitably

tchrist

@AndrewLeach I think we have a scale for that, but I’m not sure twelvetone would go over well. Europeans seem to have an allergy to divisibility by 3.

KitFox

3:10 PM

@RegDwigнt I'm referring to cultural dominance.

RegDwigнt

Ten people are a minority even if they rule absolutely everything in the entire universe.

terdon

That's a minority rule.

KitFox

OK. Still doesn't mean you'll get your way.

It's not about how many there are, it's about how influential they are.

RegDwigнt

@KitFox you conveniently disregard that the aspects under discussion are precisely not part of said dominance.

KitFox

Hence my opinion that we do have a considerable portion of cultural dominance, sufficient to warrant Wikipedia exceptions anyway.

@RegDwigнt Metric v. Imperial?

RegDwigнt

3:13 PM

@KitFox exempli gratia.

KitFox

It's because of our cultural power that it persists.

RegDwigнt

Didn't work for any of the other 190 countries.

terdon

Not so much "power" as "how many Wikipedia editors are American".

RegDwigнt

Wishful thinking. It's just inertia. Laziness.

KitFox

@RegDwigнt Exactly my point.

RegDwigнt

3:15 PM

@KitFox oh you're saying that no other country has sufficient cultural power? Now that is American...

terdon

In terms of numbers, I'm pretty sure that say China has a greater influence worldwide than the US. It's just that the US culture is dominant in the countries most of us live in. Not at all sure how that translates to a percentage of world population.

KitFox

@RegDwigнt That may be true. I don't know the cost-benefit of converting all our factories to metric, but it must be too high a cost or market pressure would have forced it by now.

RegDwigнt

@KitFox you have 99% of the world proving to you that it is possible at negligible cost.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox Factories are practical. They use whatever system works best. Probably lots of them use metric already if they sell stuff internationally or have to comply with standards.

RegDwigнt

Otherwise they wouldn't have converted themselves.

KitFox

3:17 PM

@RegDwigнt I'm saying that despite the other 190 countries doing it differently, we have sufficient mainstay to do it our way.

RegDwigнt

That is the whole point.

It's been tried and tested.

George Pompidou

is there any situation in which I can go wrong 'flagging' a question?

KitFox

@GeorgePompidou Lots.

Johan Larsson

> negligible cost

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwigнt There are huge costs. Don't forget that the US is more like 50 countries than one country when it comes to stuff like Metric.

It's worse than the EU in some regards.

terdon

3:17 PM

53

Q: Why does the United States keep using "old" date representations and imperial system, while being in the minority?

Other than the US (and a few other countries), the vast majority of countries use International System of Units (SI). Celsius temperature scale. DMY or YMD date format¹. 24-hour clock when written². Monday as the first day of week³. These differences can cause technical difficulties. What ...

George Pompidou

for example, if a question is debatably off-topic but I maintain it is off-topic, is there a situation in which someone will get notified that there's been a flagged question and I'm bothering that person with an opinionated flag?

RegDwigнt

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 again, you have all the proof that it is easily possible for 50+ countries. I really do not understand.

terdon

@KitFox Not sure about "mainstay". More like "we don't give a damn what all you other people are doing".

George Pompidou

in other words, is my flagging my prerogative?

RegDwigнt

And I didn't say the costs weren't huge. I said they were negligible.

And at this point they are all sunk costs, even.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:19 PM

@RegDwigнt But 50+ countries, simultaneously? It'll never happen in the US. Not until they establish metric colonies on the moon or something.

George Pompidou

that was aimed at you @KitFox since you answered me.

RegDwigнt

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I'd actually have to look up how many countries converted how quickly. I don't know it by heart.

KitFox

@GeorgePompidou You can comment that you think it is off-topic and why, and wait for the reps to close vote. You can flag it, but the response will vary.

RegDwigнt

I know it was spread out, just like with the calendar, and a ton of other things. But it was always in bunches.

KitFox

Because we have lots of people for closing questions.

George Pompidou

3:20 PM

@KitFox okay. what if tchrist already commented that it's off topic and I agree and would like to "cast a vote" somehow in his favor?

is upvoting his comment sufficient?

Robusto

@RegDwigнt He's Canadian.

KitFox

You could do that.

George Pompidou

also, in which situation would you recommend I flag something? or should I abstain from that in general?

KitFox

You could post it in here too.

RegDwigнt

@Robusto I know.

KitFox

3:21 PM

@GeorgePompidou Andrew has some nice guidelines for that.

RegDwigнt

There's a nice quote of yourself in this very room where you explain the different meanings of "you", but I'm too lazy to search for it.

Robusto

That's you all over.

RegDwigнt

I'm trying hard.

user116848

Hello folks

Cerberus

It's either of you all over.

George Pompidou

3:22 PM

where?

RegDwigнt

@Cerberus roll over, the three of you.

@GeorgePompidou seven. I already told you.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwigнt According to terdon's link, most of Europe standardized on metric in the 19th century. It'd be much harder to change it now.

George Pompidou

@RegDwigнt well for god's sake

shut up.

Robusto

@RegDwigнt *hardly (ftfy)

RegDwigнt

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 oh you can always say things like that. In fact through the entire history people did say things like that.

terdon

3:24 PM

Also, given that we've moved just about everything else to a decimal scale, using Imperial is just odd.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwigнt I'm sure throughout history almost nobody has ever said "According to terdon's link"

RegDwigнt

@Robusto nonono, I shall try hardly only after trying hard first. And then having a glass of water.

Robusto

linguism.co.uk/language/ipa-versus-respelling/…

terdon

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Why would it be harder now than it was then? If anything, what with global culture and the interwebs and all it would be easier.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@terdon Because there is more stuff to change.

RegDwigнt

3:25 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 don't make me fire up COHA because you know I will.

KitFox

4

Q: Do we have any general guidelines on flagging?

There are a number of Meta posts about flags, both here on Meta.ELU and on Meta.SE. Do we have any guidelines for flagging comment as offense? (mELU) Why can’t I flag a question as offensive? (mELU) What is considered hate speech? (mSE) Official guidelines for flagging answer as offensive/hate ...

support flagging moderation

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

As your link points out, much of Europe rebuilt from scratch after WWII

@RegDwigнt go nuts

Robusto

@terdon Said the man whose work was done before he ever got there to the man who still faced a daunting task.

George Pompidou

@KitFox theeeeeeeenks ^.^

KitFox

Sure thing. Next time, you try.

George Pompidou

3:26 PM

that's exactement what I was looking for. but I suppose I'm dumb for not searching.

Robusto

"Hey, our forefathers switched to metric and it was easy for us to simply learn it. I don't see what you're griping about."

KitFox

Not dumb, just lazy.

RegDwigнt

SUFFOLK: Stay, Whitmore; for thy prisoner is a prince,
The Duke of Suffolk, William de la Pole.

WHITMORE: According to terdon's link,
The Duke of Suffolk muffled up in rags!

George Pompidou

no, dumb. it just flat out didn't occur to me to search.

RegDwigнt

See. Took me but a minute.

terdon

3:26 PM

@Robusto True enough, better you than me. Still, get with the 21st century already. Hell, get with the 19th!

KitFox

I'm listening to an ASMR video where she's talking about My Friend Totoro @Reg.

She's got a stuffy and things.

Robusto

@terdon The 19th is just as outmoded. Also, Celsius truly does suck for non-scientific purposes.

terdon

@Robusto Huh? Why? Anything is better than F really.

Robusto

@terdon Tell that to @tchrist and we'll both beat you up.

RegDwigнt

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 see, that was a whole friggin century after converting to metric!

terdon

3:28 PM

You're gonna have to catch me first.

Robusto

@terdon Fahrenheit is the humanist temperature scale.

It's based on human beings' temperature perceptions. Not scientific absolutism.

Cerberus

@terdon That answer is not bad.

terdon

@Robusto How so? Using the temperatures at which water changes phase seems very intuitive to me.

Cerberus

@RegDwigнt sits

terdon

@Cerberus Yeah, it was a nice thread.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:29 PM

@RegDwigнt The point being that at that point there was no inertia. ANY measurement system would do. May as well go with the official one, and stamp out any vestiges of the old systems.

Cerberus

@terdon Although the focus on "manufacturing" is a bit odd.

RegDwigнt

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 well, invade the US then, you slackers.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus why? manufacturing is where lots of the costs lie.

KitFox

giggles at the thought of Canada invading the US

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwigнt We can't, really. We still have some remnants of Imperial here. Most people describe their height and weight in feet/inches or pounds.

@KitFox We kicked your asses in 1812!

Robusto

3:31 PM

May 12 '13 at 2:45, by tchrist

You always adjust your frame of reference so that you are at 0. That’s what Fahrenheit does, because most of us live between 0 and 100F all our lives, and complain bitterly when it is outside that range.

Matt Эллен

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I weigh 5 foot 7

RegDwigнt

@Robusto er. He set 0° to represent the point he could cool brine down to.

terdon

@Robusto 0 F? Are you kidding?

Where do you live?

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It was hard then, and it would be hard now. But you can do it one step at a time. Getting used to the Euro happened in my time, and it went pretty well.

Robusto

Salt water freezes at 0 F. At ~100 F the body can no longer cool itself via the air.

terdon

3:31 PM

And the 0F is just ridiculous. Granted that 100 might make some intuitive sense but 0?

> On Fahrenheit's original scale the lower defining point was the lowest temperature to which he could reproducibly cool brine (defining 0 degrees), while the highest was that of the average human core body temperature (defining 100 degrees).

@Robusto That's just silly. It depends entirely on the amount of salt in solution.

Cerberus

@Robusto Indeed, I should be greatly inconvenienced during my daily salt-water freezings!!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus That's totally different. Imagine if every product has produced in a new size with new units you weren't familiar with; every cookbook used units and temps you didn't know; every speed limit sign and distance sign was unfamiliar to you; etc, etc.

terdon

On the other hand, we've all seen water freeze and boil and have an intuitive grasp of the temperatures involved.

KitFox

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes, we're obviously still reeling from that.

RegDwigнt

@KitFox famous last words.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:33 PM

@KitFox Well, you've never tried anything so brazen again.

Here, anyway

RegDwigнt

Hochmut kommt vor dem Fall

Johan Larsson

@Robusto you need to specify the % of NaCl

terdon

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 That's what everyone else who had to change went through. Why not the US?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

leans back in chair, smugly

terdon

1 min ago, by terdon

@Robusto That's just silly. It depends entirely on the amount of salt in solution.

Cerberus

3:33 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I use American recipes sometimes. It is annoying because I don't do it often, but I would get used to it soon enough. So I said one step at a time: first weights, then in 5 years speeds, etc.

Robusto

@terdon I grant you that it varies, but not significantly enough to make a difference over average ocean samples. Also Fahrenheit misrecorded the human body temperature as 100 (whereas it's more like 98.6), but that is variable as well. Still, the point stands that it represents a human response of temperature.

Andrew Leach

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Ha. Just wait. Your whole life flashes before you.

KitFox

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes. My statement was without irony.

user116848

@MattЭллен I thought you were almost 6 foot :-D

Robusto

@RegDwigнt Hochmutt und Jeff.

Matt Эллен

3:34 PM

@Arrowfar does my photo make look fat?

Cerberus

@Robusto I think the freezing point of water is very human, it is actually useful in daily life.

Robusto

@Cerberus That's the whole point!

terdon

@Robusto Exactly. The point stands that it is basically arbitrary while water freezing/boiling is entirely human and intuitive. If it were the melting/boiling point of methane or something I'd agree with you. Kelvin for example is useless for anything outside science.

user116848

@MattЭллен No. But I didn't know you were 5 foot 7 inches

RegDwigнt

@Robusto I dunno, I use 100°C and 0°C every day. When cooking and drinking. I only care about 100°F when I am sick. And 0°F literally never.

KitFox

3:35 PM

Don't forget that all your construction and tooling and mechanical parts would change.

Cerberus

@Robusto I know! It would be a horrible ordeal.

KitFox

So all our engineering would shift.

Matt Эллен

@Arrowfar that's how much I weigh. I'm 64kg tall

Robusto

@RegDwigнt You obviously don't live in a place that ever has outside temps near 100 F.

KitFox

And architectural considerations.

terdon

3:35 PM

@KitFox I think that would be the greater problem. But it must be hell trying to get engineers to communicate across the pond. Just 'cause the US is stuck with an outmoded system :P

Johan Larsson

unit-war

RegDwigнt

@KitFox they change all the time anyway. Otherwise the tool industry would have been dead centuries ago.

Cerberus

@KitFox Engineering in science is already largely metric, isn't it?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@terdon Because other people changed it in different ways and at different times a long time ago. In the 19th century literacy wasn't even that high, let alone numeric literacy. And metric provided obvious benefits, viz standardization. There was less inertia and more benefit. Now for the US there is way more inertia and little benefit.

KitFox

@Cerberus What about all the building trades?

user116848

3:36 PM

@MattЭллен What does that mean? Height for weight? :)

Matt Эллен

@Arrowfar I'm just messing about :D

KitFox

@RegDwigнt Not at all.

terdon

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 A lot of benefit, though I grant inertia.

RegDwigнt

@Robusto we had 100°F outside just a week ago, for a full week.

user116848

@MattЭллен Oh, :)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:36 PM

@terdon What benefit is there? For regular people?

RegDwigнt

In fact it's quite typical for a summer here.

Johan Larsson

@KitFox building converted to metric in the 90's here. Think plumbing is still lagging.

Cerberus

@KitFox Nobody said it was easy. But if you just change one industry at a time, or one set of units at a time, it's really not that hard. Like the Euro, which is a unit we use every day, and which all industries use every day!

KitFox

You can't change one industry at a time.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox hell. We're a metric country and our building trades still use 2x4s and measure stuff in feet/inches.

terdon

3:37 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Using a reasonable scale?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus The Euro is not at all in the same league of problems as changing to metric.

Robusto

Also, I notice that the golf courses in England and Scotland still use yards, not meters.

RegDwigнt

@KitFox and how is that a bad thing? That's a huge benefit.

KitFox

I find tablespoons to be perfectly reasonable.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@terdon define "reasonable" and describe the benefits.

terdon

3:37 PM

No, seriously, for internal US use not much benefit to normal people, OK.

Cerberus

People still order "a pound/ounce of cheese" at the market here or at the butcher's. Apparently, 130 years wasn't enough.

George Pompidou

who would name their child Gretchen

that's such a witch name.

terdon

It just makes sense to use the same scale as everyone else.

KitFox

We do all use the same scale.

George Pompidou

quietly recedes into the shadow again

terdon

3:38 PM

@KitFox We do? How tall are you?

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It is in the same league as changing one set of units, like weight. As I said, step by step, not all at once.

KitFox

@terdon I use the same scale that my neighbors do, and that my relatives do when I go visit them.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Every country everywhere deals with multiple currencies. Especially in Europe. The Euro is just another currency. BIG DEAL. The only problem is adding the symbol to the fonts.

Robusto

@Cerberus Said the ~~man~~ dog who never had to undergo that sort of change.

terdon

@Cerberus No because you don't need to redefine the size of screws for example.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:39 PM

@Cerberus No. It's not at all in the same league. Not a single bit of manufacturing needed to change.

terdon

@KitFox I meant all as in all countries, united in a brotherhood or sisterhood of common scales.

Matt Эллен

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 analogue cash registers!

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 No, it is the main currency that everyone uses everyday! Most people and company only ever use one currency on a daily basis, then and now.

Johan Larsson

We should put unit-war on a schedule here :)

KitFox

@terdon How does that make sense? I don't do business with other countries.

Cerberus

3:39 PM

@Robusto Umm I went through the Euro change when I was 19.

KitFox

Why should I change my everything to match when I match already with my neighbors?

terdon

@Cerberus Yes but changing currency is easy. Think about it, the value of 1cent or whatever fluctuates anyway.

Matt Эллен

@KitFox the Internet is another country!

terdon

@KitFox Brotherhood!

RegDwigнt

@Robusto yeah, and then they're gonna die, wearing those stupid little hats. How does it feel?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:40 PM

@Cerberus But so what. Literally all that needs to happen to support the Euro is you add the € to the font and then program new numbers into your calculator.

Customers have to get used to new prices, but prices change all the time.

Cerberus

@terdon You do need to redesign lots of computer programmes for banks and companies. Cash registers. The tax agencies (which are HORRIBLE at change), all shops, etc. etc.

terdon

Also, objectively (that is, in my opinion), metric just makes more sense. It is on a decimal scale just like everything else we measure except time.

@Cerberus Yes, but not the sizes of things.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

And people may not use other currencies every day, but exchange rates are a simple concept and it's really just a labelling change in the end.

RegDwigнt

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 you have to change the price on every product in every shop in ever country, and reprogram every register.

KitFox

It's more like if adopting the Euro meant moving to base-8 for your currency.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:42 PM

@Cerberus Speaking as a programmer, I can tell you that changing to Euro is not that big a deal, unless you are dealing with a system that cannot handle multiple currencies at all. It just isn't.

Cerberus

@terdon Euro coins and notes have different sizes, so banks need to change, vending machines, various machines related to money in shops, etc.

terdon

@RegDwigнt Why reprogram? The only difference would be the unit, all the calculations are the same. Changing to metric would mean reprogramming everything since imperial is not a base 10 system.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwigнt Yes but they do that all the time anyway. Changing prices on products.

KitFox

@RegDwigнt Items get priced daily. Registers are frequently updated. Not really much change there.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Ah, finally, a real difference. Vending machines.

terdon

3:42 PM

@Cerberus Yes, but changing to metric would mean all of that and way, way more.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Many companies still use cash registers that are in black and white, they look like they're from the 80s...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus That's neither here nor there.

RegDwigнt

@terdon so you are saying some math is just math, but other math is not just math. Sorry, the math does not check out.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

All you do is change the prices in the machine and specify an exchange rate for the old currency and BOOM DONE

It's literally that easy

KitFox

Literally that easy.

Cerberus

3:43 PM

@terdon Hence: one step at a time! If Cheese-makers switch to metric weights, that is a nice way of getting used to it.

RegDwigнt

@KitFox Items do not get priced daily in every shop in every country. And certainly not all items all at once.

Matt Эллен

Figuratively that easy

terdon

@RegDwigнt Huh? No, I mean that changing from one base 10 currency to another means that all the calculations your software was doing still work. They won't if you change base unless you re-write them to use the new base.

KitFox

@RegDwigнt You have to price the item when you put it on the shelf.

You do that anyway.

It's not a change.

RegDwigнt

No you don't.

The price is on the shelf.

It does not change for years.

I don't know how they run things in your country, but this is how it's done here.

KitFox

3:44 PM

Ah, well. Different here.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwigнt You can change the prices of everything in the store in a weekend. Or over a few days if you take your time.

KitFox

Even shelf tags are updated periodically.

RegDwigнt

Why would you price-gun every chocolate bar?

Matt Эллен

prices on the selves change frequently here. not all at once, though

KitFox

When they do inventory, at least.

Johan Larsson

3:45 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I can tell the CAD program to use inches with a click, my OCD will not make it easy seeing three digits on everything though.

KitFox

You might do more of it, but it's not a new thing.

Anonymous

@Cerberus ping ??

RegDwigнt

And if you do price-gun every chocolate bar in your country, how is that not all the perfect proof you need that you have enough resources to switch to metric?

Cerberus

As usual, people say "it cannot be done" when a change is proposed. It's human nature to overestimate the difficulty of change, which is in a way a good thing.

Matt Эллен

supermarkets have weekly/monthly/daily deals that they're doing and so forth

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:45 PM

I mean, look. lots of stores in the world use multiple currencies (typically local currency + USD or local + EUR). They get by with prices in both currencies or with a posted exchange rate. That process is identical to the process required for switching to EUR.

Cerberus

@bivoc Oh, I thought you said Bing!

Andrew Leach

@MattЭллен Yes: but it's only one ticket per item, and it can be done in conjunction with a master price change on the barcode record.

Matt Эллен

true

KitFox

Right. Alter your pricebook, print new labels. Done.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 We have almost zero stores here that do that!

Andrew Leach

3:46 PM

Which in fact triggers the printing of the new shelf tag.

RegDwigнt

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 you can change the five tools that use Imperial, too. In fact most you don't have to change because they already are compatible.

Anonymous

@Cerberus :) I was looking for you last time. Did you, by any chance happened to read my question?

Cerberus

And you can start by using both units at the same time.

Johan Larsson

Pneumatics and hydraulics are changing to metric as we speak I think

Cerberus

@bivoc Um no, I didn't see any question?

RegDwigнt

3:47 PM

@Cerberus which, again, is already ubiquitous.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwigнt But switching to metric is more than just a labelling change. I have two sets of some tools, a metric set and an imperial set, because the physical sizes of things are different.

user116848

They don't have a good "accounting SE site". Anyone knows why?

Cerberus

@RegDwigнt Indeed.

terdon

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 And that's a good reason to switch right there.

Cerberus

2 mins ago, by Cerberus

As usual, people say "it cannot be done" when a change is proposed. It's human nature to overestimate the difficulty of change, which is in a way a good thing.

Andrew Leach

3:47 PM

@JohanLarsson Tyre pressures are in psi. Bars are too big.

Matt Эллен

@Arrowfar Personal Finance & Money

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@terdon Yes. That is ONE good reason. But sadly not a sufficient reason.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Then you are in the middle of a switch. How does it feel? Is it killing you? That is exactly how switches work.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

And esp. in the USA that problem happens less often.

KitFox

You don't understand. You're talking about going from base-whatever to base-10. That's a hellaciousness of epic proportions.

Johan Larsson

3:48 PM

@AndrewLeach We have dual labeling on many devices. Also *MPa

RegDwigнt

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 the physical sizes of coins were completely different for the Euro, too. You had to change every vending machine on the entire continent. Over just one night.

KitFox

Whoa, server lag.

Johan Larsson

@AndrewLeach I meant the threads.

RegDwigнt

Ticket vending machines, coke vending machines, cigarette vending machines. Everywhere.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I'm not in the middle of a switch. My country switched to Metric 50 years ago. It's the US selling me non-metric stuff that causes that to be a headache.

Robusto

3:49 PM

How about this: we'll switch to metric when you all switch to English as your primary language.

RegDwigнt

One day they accepted Francs/Marks/Liras, the very next day they accepted Euros.

@Robusto done. Your turn.

terdon

@KitFox Well, yes. But it has to be done at some point. The world, including our most basic system of math, works on a base 10 system. At some point, even you recalcitrant backwards types will have to adapt.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwigнt You don't need to change it overnight. You had years and years to retrofit the machines to accept different coins. And I bet when the Euro started there were millions of machines that didn't accept the new coins.

Robusto

@RegDwigнt I said primary. Not tertiary.

KitFox

@terdon There is no compelling reason.

RegDwigнt

3:49 PM

@Robusto I said done.

I am thinking in English right now.

Robusto

Jul 18 at 19:35, by Robusto

We actually started to switch to the metric system under Jimmy Carter. Then Reagan got in and killed that whole thing.

I blame the Republicans.

RegDwigнt

Now you go think in Celcius.

Anonymous

No problem. I wanted to explain to someone how a root verb, the infinitive, and its conjugation relate to the a verb, or in other words.. if you were to teach someone about those concepts, how would you finish of this sentences a very has...?

Andrew Leach

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@AndrewLeach the time's wrong on that clock

Anonymous

3:51 PM

@Cerberus Very much like, how we can group articles, nouns, verbs ... under the theme of parts of speech.

RegDwigнt

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 okay, so same for your tools. Where's the problem, then?

Basically every side cherry-picks arguments that cut both ways.

terdon

10 mins ago, by terdon

Also, objectively (that is, in my opinion), metric just makes more sense. It is on a decimal scale just like everything else we measure except time.

RegDwigнt

Had you just switched, we wouldn't be having this conversation right now.

And you'd be fiercely proclaiming anything Imperial as deeply Unamerican. Buddies face down in the mud.

But I gotta mute commies. Sorry.

terdon

@KitFox There are many. For example 1) Simplicity: having everyone reading from the same page 2) Simplicity: our brains are used to base 10 for everything except time (and you imperial types)

KitFox

@RegDwigнt That's the thing. There is no problem. Therefore, we will not change.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

3:53 PM

@RegDwigнt You are forgetting, or ignoring, that Canada IS a metric country. We switched. But we still have to deal with stuff from other places that didn't switch, hence the need for two sets of tools.

KitFox

@terdon Everyone I know uses the same system I do. Everyone.

Well, not counting you people.

terdon

@KitFox That is not an argument, come on. I could say the same for metric. The point is to break out of parochial provincialism.

Cerberus

@bivoc I'm not sure I understand the question. I would probably give this person a basic English grammar book and have them read it and do exercises?

KitFox

@terdon Which no one ever does, not without a compelling reason or large benefit.

Which "because" doesn't satisfy.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@terdon 1) The Imperial system does have some practical benefits and it IS a national standard, unlike what was in place in Europe before metrification. 2) Some parts of Imperial are simpler to use than metric. eg dividing feet by 3 or 4 gives you whole inches.

terdon

3:54 PM

No but standardization does.

KitFox

@terdon Right. And my system that I use is standard.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@terdon 320M use the Imperial standard. How many people does it take?

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I think we had already standardised most things within countries in Europe.

terdon

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Huh? I don't get 2. What if I want to divide by something strange like 2?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@terdon 12 divides by 2.

terdon

3:56 PM

@KitFox Even the US uses metric in science.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

but 10 doesn't divide evenly by 3 or 4.

Cerberus

But 12 does!

KitFox

@terdon No we don't. Science is metric.

terdon

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 No but it divides by 5. Come on, that's not an argument.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@terdon No. More and more science and engineering uses SI.

terdon

3:56 PM

@KitFox Sorry, meant metric.

Cerberus

@terdon Of course they will change. It just takes a while when you are a large country and relatively isolated.

Anonymous

@Cerberus I'm afraid it's not as simple as that. Suppose you wanted to explain what a root verb is, what what the infinitive is/does. Would it be correct to say: "a verb has two forms .. the root, and the infinitive."

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@terdon No, it IS an argument. 12 divides evenly by 2, 3, and 4. That is useful. The babylonians had a base-60 counting system which would have made you happy by including 5 in there.

Cerberus

@bivoc What do you mean by "root" in this case? A verb without any endings or affixes?

Johan Larsson

confirmed argument

KitFox

3:58 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 And 6.

terdon

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 But 10 divides evenly by 2 and 5. More importantly, 100 divides evenly by all sorts of things.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@terdon but not 3.

terdon