English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room - 2014-08-05 (page 5 of 9)

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4:00 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Which one? The British or the American?

Anonymous

I was thought that a root is the base of the verb, as in eat, drink, drive whereas its infinitive form equals to eat, to drink, to drive and the conjugations. I thought those three were forms of a verb. @Cerberus

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@terdon Doesn't matter much, does it? I'm not doing engineering with my coffee

@terdon be honest. When was the last time you needed to convert a km distance into a cm distance?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Well, it does if you want to know the size. A British and American pint are not even similar really.

Imperial pints are better.

@terdon I like the imperial pint for beer.

4:01 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Not very often. I have often needed to convert m/s to km/h though.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@terdon well, I guess I use the US oz.

Anonymous

Now, I am not sure if that is how I should introduce them to a beginner, and if true, then if they are all the forms or if there are more..

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 You mean the guy at the end of the yellow brick road?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@terdon really? I never need to do that.

In fact, pint is just another term for beer, right?

4:02 PM

Of course, we do have some things measured in liters, like soda.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 You don't read enough science fiction. High speeds are given in meters per second and my brain needs kilometers per hour to understand.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I like my distance in m/km but I like my coffee in fl oz.

@KitFox And kittens!

That's litters.

@KitFox Fine, spoil a perfectly good pun by orthographic pedantry :P

4:03 PM

:/

I knew it was litters.

Hmm. Wrong emoticon.

consternation

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

fl oz are useful for me too because most of my recipes are imperial on account of being American(-ized). And there is rarely a case when I need to care about how many this are in that or whatever.

@bivoc I not sure I understand that. The root of a verb can indeed be what you say in English. The infinitive is either drink or both drink and to drink, but in a certain syntactic construction. I didn't see a "third form" in your line, but there are of course many other forms of the verb.

George Pompidou

has it always been possible to click on a vote count and it shows how many up/down votes it has specifically?

O.o

I guess I accidentally figured out that feature today. very nice.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

4:05 PM

@GeorgePompidou once you have a certain rep you can do that.

Who's got my pen?

George Pompidou

hmm.

Hi @JSB!

hi

Did you send your excerpt off?

4:10 PM

@GeorgePompidou i saw that you and reg were reading my romania articles

@KitFox yep. no response yet.

no news is good news.

@GeorgePompidou I think the threshold is 1000, so you would have just recently had that turned on.

Yes, I should think so.

Did you make some revisions? Do you want me to read more?

@KitFox no, i'll be waiting a while

George Pompidou

@Robusto you are correct, and I am once again a fool.

Anonymous

So, aside from the role a verb plays in giving a meaning to a sentence/phrase, would it be ok to go on a little further by saying, "a verb can take (has) three forms, the root, infinitive, and its conjugation.."? Just to make a way and explain the meaning of those three concepts in their relation to the verb, or where they fit inside the branches of the grammar.

Anonymous

4:16 PM

@Cerberus

George Pompidou

@JSBձոգչ yes, for someone who isn't Romanian/has family in Romania, you have remarkably perfect grasp of Romanians.

haha

Anonymous

Last question, I swear :)

@GeorgePompidou No one is born knowing this stuff.

George Pompidou

I barely gathered that much knowledge, and I've been spending almost each summer for all of my 23 years in Romania with my family.

@GeorgePompidou i have family in Romania. all of my in-laws.

George Pompidou

4:17 PM

ah, yes.

@JSBձոգչ sad panda

George Pompidou

and your take on Gypsies is perfect too.

@bivoc Hmm no, I would not say that.

George Pompidou

I'm a bit harsher in judging them because my parents/grandparents are all accustomed to hating their guts and that being okay.

Anonymous

@Cerberus Well, that is also what I felt.

4:18 PM

The conjugation of a verb is either all the forms that a verb can take, or possibly all the forms that have a person (first person, second person, third person).

But it is not what you say.

George Pompidou

@JSBձոգչ I, in fact, used your article as part of my explanation to my girlfriend of why my family may appear racist to her when she meets them.

@GeorgePompidou my brother-in-law works with gypsies. so they have a love-hate relationship with them.

@GeorgePompidou Your family appears racist, by doing what?

Anonymous

Well, I wish there was just a common name to explain them all, in the same manner we say, " parts of speech are ... "

Gypsies are not really a race, are they?

@bivoc All the forms of a verb is what you could say, or the conjugation of a verb.

George Pompidou

4:22 PM

@Cerberus they are Romanian. they don't have the western sensitivity when talking about race/racial matters. they also hate gypsies, and some of them, like my grandmother, do not notice that it's not okay to speak harshly of certain demographics here in the US.

That's what I would say.

Anonymous

@GeorgePompidou I don't mean to pry but I am pretty curious about the contents of that article :)

George Pompidou

check it out. it's on JS's website.

@GeorgePompidou The American sensitivity, probably? We're not so sensitive here. But saying you hate an entire group of people is of course not very nice. It can be excused in a moment of passion, of course...

George Pompidou

that's what I meant.

4:24 PM

But I see the issue.

George Pompidou

check out his articles about Gypsies. it's quite different from western race issues.

I mean, when another Moroccan has stolen my bag, second time this month, I might curse "always those damned Moroccans". I think that is to be excused.

George Pompidou

it's different. just check it out.

with the Gypsies in Romania it's more of a set of cultural problems.

I know some people in eastern Europe can be very discriminatory towards gypsies...

George Pompidou

I think for good reason. but I'm biased.

4:25 PM

But surely your grandmother would admit that some gypsies can be nice people?

@bivoc jsbangs.com/2011/07/21/visitors-guide-to-romanian-racism

George Pompidou

depends how you define Gypsies. what my grandmother refers to as 'țigani' is the group whose culture is to steal, rip off, and in general do sketchy things.

@Cerberus certainly, but that's not really relevant or helpful.

@GeorgePompidou yes. and the culture's the thing. gypsies who are romanianized, who work and follow Romanian cultural norms are generally treated quite well.

@GeorgePompidou tigani? Really? In what language, is that Romanian?

@GeorgePompidou There is usually a grain of truth in it. Moroccans here have thrice the crime rate. Although of course still not all Moroccans are criminals, only maybe 25% or so are "in contact with the justice system", as it is called here.

George Pompidou

4:27 PM

one of my biggest problems with them is the way they beg around more rural areas of Romania. my grandmother always shows me how they live in their giant mansions and send their kids off to beg/steal. often times they mutilate their kids (like poke an eye out or cut their arm off) to appear more decrepit and troubled.

@JSBձոգչ Well, that's what I would say to her to calm her down if she were in a rant or something.

George Pompidou

țigani is the Romanian word for Gypsies, yes.

@GeorgePompidou How often do they do that? Research?

Huh, it comes from Greek and means "untouchable".

Huh, what is it in Greek?

George Pompidou

4:28 PM

I don't need research to complement what I have seen every summer in Romania for about 20 years.

and to know that it's horrible, and they have huge cultural problems.

Most people are easily misled by anecdotal evidence.

Which is why I asked about "oftentimes".

George Pompidou

anecdotal to you, firsthand to me.

No, that is the same thing.

@Cerberus The "nice" word is αθίγγανος

My father is like that: because he is a criminal lawyer, he sees only criminal Moroccans, and lots of them. He thinks the majority are criminals, even though statistics show they're not.

He was even once physically assaulted by an unhappy client.

4:30 PM

@GeorgePompidou That just makes it your anecdote but no less anecdotal.

When he was like 65 years old.

George Pompidou

it is completely different with Gypsies in Romania @Cerberus. a whole different world.

@Cerberus I thought all foreigners were criminals. QED

@terdon Hmm from what verb is that? I can only think of engus, "close".

@GeorgePompidou That's really hard to judge. You have a very specific vision of them which may or may not be representative.

Anonymous

4:31 PM

@JSBձոգչ interesting.

@Cerberus θιγγάνω

@GeorgePompidou I'm sure.

George Pompidou

@terdon it's not my vision. it's the vision of Romanian people. definitely both of you check out JS's article.

@Robusto They are! Especially foreigners on the Internet, like...Americans in a chat room OMG!

George Pompidou

haha.

4:32 PM

@GeorgePompidou Oh, I believe you, we have a very similar opinion of gypsies in Greece and again, it is not based on racism alone.

@Cerberus Well, birds of a feather . . .

George Pompidou

that's why it's nice being me. I'm American when it's convenient. otherwise, Romanian or Swiss.

@terdon OK thanks. It appears I just didn't know or remember it. archimedes.fas.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/…

@Robusto Argh very well, I concede.

@GeorgePompidou however, I know that the only contacts I've had with gypsies has been with precisely that part of gypsy society that is problematic. I don't know what percentage of the gypsy population that represents.

@GeorgePompidou I thought you were a Chicagoan. That's more American than most.

4:33 PM

@GeorgePompidou Yeah, I do the same. I switch between being Greek or American depending on context :)

George Pompidou

@Robusto why do you say that? Chicago is mostly Polish people.

@terdon Moroccans also often confirm the stereotype for me. But I am still aware that the majority are fairly OK, from statistics.

George Pompidou

and definitely mostly immigrants.

@terdon I switch to being Greek when I want a great Mediterranean meal.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus You can't look at a minority's crime rate and make any kind of conclusion. The police will focus their efforts on finding crime where they think it is, not necessarily where it really is.

George Pompidou

4:34 PM

I guess not 'mostly' but the largest blocks of people in Chicago are Polish and other immigrants.

Anonymous

@GeorgePompidou I doubt being an American serves any purpose these days.

@JohanLarsson That is pretty impressive. I was expecting something to horribly wrong, for the tree to crush the men and the house in one fell swoop!

@Robusto Good man!

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 that's a lovely piece of rationalization. police magically make crime appear through the power of racism.

Anonymous

That is to say ... if you are a foreigner.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

4:36 PM

@JSBձոգչ No. But they magically make crime statistics appear by the power of racism.

@JSBձոգչ Well... they do. Not always of course but it certainly happens. In some countries more than in others.

@terdon i'll grant you that

@GeorgePompidou No it isn't either. Chicago itself is mostly black and Latino. It's mostly "minority" (ironically enough).

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

It happens everywhere there is prejudice among the people who are cops.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It's not just that statistic. Maybe there is a small bias, but Moroccans are the poorest segment of the population, with the lowest education, etc. They really are a lot more criminal than autochthones. Our police are among the nicest in the world, much better than that of, say, France.

4:37 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 And of course, where there is prejudice, you will find it more evident among the cops.

@terdon You have something against cops?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@terdon I don't know about that. I think it's more of a problem when a copy is prejudiced, but I don't know if cops have more prejudice.

@Robusto Only when they're copping a feel.

@JSBձոգչ They did issue them magic wands.

@terdon One man's meat . . .

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

4:38 PM

@Cerberus How nice the police are isn't really the point. Are they free of prejudice? I doubt it.

I'm not saying they are.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Well, 1) they come into contact with the uglier side of minorities most often 2) they tend not to be very educated 3) they often lean towards the authoritarian (they're cops after all). Those factors combined often lead to a high level of xenophobia and/or racism in police forces.

@Robusto ... is another man's mate.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I'm just saying there is a wealth of statistics, not just from the police. And there is some sort of bias in the police, but it's not that huge.

George Pompidou

@Robusto fair enough. still have like a million Polish people. second most after Warsaw.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@terdon 1) they come into contact with the ugly sides of everyone though, not just minorities. 2) and 3) I'll grant you

4:40 PM

@GeorgePompidou I know. I grew up in the Chicago area and lived in the city itself for about 17 years.

George Pompidou

oh! cool! where?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Of course. But that does tend to skew their vision some. And because of 3 they tend to start off skewed already.

@GeorgePompidou North Side.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Well, you said "crime rate", you didn't mention this wealth of other, non-police-derived statistics. And I just felt that it deserves a dose of caution, because a crime-rate statistic is a self-fulfilling prophesy.

George Pompidou

4:41 PM

me too!

I'm from LP. ^.^

Cool.

I lived variously in Lincoln Park area, Wrigleyville, and Lakeview.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I understand the mechanism. It's just not the largest factor in this case.

George Pompidou

all great places. except Wrigleyville when there's a stupid cubs game.

then you have to run drunk idiots over to get anywhere by car.

You learn not to drive anywhere when a Cubs game is in the offing.

George Pompidou

yep.

I actually rarely drove anywhere back home. we have a decent transport system for an American city.

4:43 PM

Also, if you get a parking space near your apartment you tend to only drive somewhere if you have a Very Good Reason.

George Pompidou

here though, I have to drive to get to the corner store.

:<

When you say LP, you mean Lincoln Park, yeah?

George Pompidou

around my house it wasn't terrible, since most had garages and permit parking.

yes.

Whereabouts?

George Pompidou

but then to get anywhere out of the neighborhood it's impossible.

last house I lived in was near Clark and Fullerton

4:45 PM

I lived on Seminary in the first block north of Armitage, among other places.

@GeorgePompidou I've lived there as well.

George Pompidou

my best friend lives at Webster and Seminary.

Today's Listening | Indie Dance / Nu Disco (Mixsets day 5)

George Pompidou

also on Orchard just south of Armitage.

@GeorgePompidou I lived on Arlington, just north of Fullerton.

George Pompidou

no way.

me too!

4:46 PM

Way.

George Pompidou

Arlington and Geneva

Very close by.

George Pompidou

about two houses east

I was in an apt. building.

Don't recall the address.

George Pompidou

not 555 Arlington, was it

4:47 PM

CC @KitFox

George Pompidou

because my mom bought a few apartments in there to have parking space. haha.

@GeorgePompidou I don't recall. It was a larger building. Not a six-flat or anything like that.

@GnomeSlice Oh thanks!

George Pompidou

it may not seem so to casual bychatters, but I think it's nuts that we lived on the same block in a city that size.

Or in a world that size.

George Pompidou

4:49 PM

this is true also.

Oh, I do know you. I think you are my cousin.

No, that's not it. You're too young to be my cousin. Must have worked for him.

George Pompidou

me?

Yes.

George Pompidou

gets dizzy

if your name is Maia and you live in Queens, I am your cousin.

or if your name is Olga and you live in Zürich. then I am your bourgeois cousin.

@GeorgePompidou I once met someone for the first time in a bar in a small town in South Dakota. After talking for a while, we realized we knew the same people in Lake County, we'd been at some of the same parties in Lake Forest, IL, had lived around the corner from each other around Seminary and Dickens, and that we had the same birthday. How's that for piling up the coincidences

George Pompidou

4:51 PM

my friend David lives at Seminary and Dickens. we hang out at his house way too much.

That was my stamping grounds for 2 years.

Is Olga a Victoria's Secret model?

George Pompidou

quite the opposite.

@Robusto a great place. right near the Armitage L stop. have you ever been to Charlie Trotter's?

that was my best friend's dad's restaurant.

@GeorgePompidou Haven't lived there for decades.

George Pompidou

and it's really sad that Charlie died recently.

4:53 PM

We used to walk over and eat at The Bakery when they had it on Lincoln.

George Pompidou

they named that part of Armitage after him.

how about CBA?

right under the L tracks

Louis Szathmary

Louis Szathmary (born Lajos Istvan Szathmáry II June 2, 1919 – October 4, 1996) was a Hungarian-American chef, writer, and public personality. A pioneering force in the food service profession, he is best known for heading the Bakery Restaurant and writing the New York Times bestseller The Chef’s Secret Cookbook. Szathmary’s involvement with the early frozen food industry, his numerous cookbooks and articles and his persona established him as an icon in the culinary arts industry. == Early life == Louis Szathmary was born on June 2, 1919 on a train heading from Transylvania to Budapest as his...

That guy was the chef.

George Pompidou

very cool. I was not aware of him.

out of respect, here's the guy I'm talking about

Charlie Trotter

Charles "Charlie" Trotter (September 8, 1959 – November 5, 2013) was an American chef and restaurateur. == Early life == A graduate of New Trier High School in Winnetka, Illinois, Trotter started cooking professionally in 1982 after earning a degree in political science from the University of Wisconsin–Madison. == Career == For five years after college, he worked and studied in Chicago, San Francisco (at the California Culinary Academy), Florida and Europe. Trotter was the host of the 1999 PBS cooking show The Kitchen Sessions with Charlie Trotter, in which he details his recipes and co...

Too recent for me to have been there.

BTW, I don't suppose they still have Frances' Food Shop on Clark Street and Arlington? That place was great too.

George Pompidou

they do. I always see it but never have been.

oh wait no. I'm thinking of another place called Frances

4:57 PM

I don't know if it's changed at all.

George Pompidou

are you talking about Frances' Deli?

@GeorgePompidou Might have changed the name.

George Pompidou

(worst website on earth) francesdeli.com this place

They used to have lots of steam tables with mainly comfort food.

I think it has a new name. It was called Frances' Food Shop (or Kitchen, idk). Not called Deli, I'm sure of that.

I remember because the name sounded so quaint.

I also used to drink at O'Rourke's on North Ave. Back when Ebert would hold court there.

George Pompidou

that definitely doesn't exist anymore.

5:03 PM

I know.

Do you know any of these: Nellcôte, Old Town Social, RM Champagne Salon, Leghorn, Owen + Alchemy, Kinmont, Ampersand, or Quality Social?

George Pompidou

I frequent Old Town Social, right near where it was though.

Neither does Ebert.

George Pompidou

@KitFox that was coinci-mental

user image

5:03 PM

@GeorgePompidou That's one of my cousin's.

George Pompidou

my friend Ben works there and gets me half off my food all the time.

tremendous beer selection. I love the place.

Does Lettuce Entertain You Enterprises still have restaurants around town?

George Pompidou

yep.

@KitFox I may have met your cousin several times.

I told you.

George Pompidou

and many who work for him.

hahaha.

5:04 PM

We used to favor a little sushi shop on North Clark Street called Sanko. Not sure if it's still around, or still any good.

George Pompidou

Sai Cafe is the best sushi place in Chicago, in my opinion.

my family is good friends with the owner too.

Jimmy Bee.

I don't eat Sushi since Fukushima

George Pompidou

^.^

I could eat them now, it's a bit safer

Very little the sushi consumed in America comes from around the Fukushima reactor.

5:07 PM

however not so far away, in the japanese fishing area

George Pompidou

most sushi at the best Chicago restaurants comes from pacific coast of the US I believe and is flown in every morning.

hmm, makes sense to use local fishes to make sushi

George Pompidou

@Robusto Sanko closed recently. it was right near Deming.

nope, thinking of a different one again.

haha.

5:22 PM

Chica...

George Pompidou

sings it's a small world

@GeorgePompidou Sanko used to be on Clark on that long block just south of Wrigley.

My fave Chicago pizza was Giordano's. Also Gino's East.

i had giordano's a few months ago when i was in the city. it was quite good.

@JohanLarsson hehe

George Pompidou

I can't stand deep dish. but I go to Gino's East to write on the walls and such.

all the cool people know Chicago!

5:26 PM

@GeorgePompidou Blasphemer! Thou art no true Chicagoan!

George Pompidou

I honestly know nobody from Chicago who likes it.

it's just blobs of cheese!

No it isn't either.

George Pompidou

I know a girl from central Illinois (eww) who likes it

Admit it. You're not native Chicagoan.

George Pompidou

I am more so than you are.

5:27 PM

Oh really?

George Pompidou

and I certainly am a native Chicagoan. I was born in Chicago, and lived there for about 16/23 years.

yes really.

I was born in Chicago and lived there for my first 4 years, then suburbs for the next 13, then back to Chicago for 17.

George Pompidou

so you're older than me. great.

> Respect for one's elders shows character.

George Pompidou

where were you born exactly? I was born at Northwestern, downtown.

5:29 PM

@GeorgePompidou I didn't know you Imperialists counted in 23ths of years...

@GeorgePompidou My son was born there.

I recommend metric!!

@GeorgePompidou I was technically born in Evanston. But we were living in Chicago at the time.

We have 365 1/4 + a small fraction of days in a year, extremely convenient!

GTG to meeting.

5:29 PM

Bai!

George Pompidou

@Robusto :O TRAVESTY! YOU ARE NO CHICAGOAN.

THE SUBURBS ARE NOT CHICAGO

goes to lunch

youtube.com/watch?v=Uc1GP_MUnMk&t=0m45s running on the water? (careful, shitty music) and youtube.com/watch?v=Uc1GP_MUnMk&t=3m45s

@GeorgePompidou Noted. Have a nice lunch.

@GeorgePompidou newrepublic.com/article/118967/…

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JSBձոգչ pssh. Most people don't know geography. They don't actually care about the intricacies of some random place's municipal culture. Just use the best signpost you can find. If they want to dig deeper, you can provide higher-resolution details. Anyone who gets offended by that needs to chill. You can quote me on that.

5:39 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 i entirely agree with you. i was signposting @George's reaction

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I was just discussing the other day how when I was growing up I considered the entire Greater Toronto Area to be all one big city. That's Toronto, plus the suburbs, plus the suburbs' suburbs

(now the "suburbs" ARE part of Toronto, thanks to municipal amalgamation forced on us by the province)

Now that I live in Toronto, I consider the rest of the province to be Toronto's suburbs

Your friend is looking for an English equivalent for the Russian oskomina, which is probably on every list of popular untranslatables ever created, precisely because no English equivalent exists. Sorry. — RegDwigнt ♦ 52 secs ago

@Kit

He is not asking for a definition of "set your teeth on edge". He is asking if we can allow him to misuse it in a completely inappropriate way. Which we can't.

I found it to be more confusing the more he explained it.

5:55 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 wait, municipal nonsense is geography now?

It's politics, man. Local politics at that. Very local. Too localized [TM].

Oh that mouth-puckery feeling.

You could probably use "sets my teeth on edge" for that.

Or puckers.

George Pompidou

@Robusto I was half kidding (playing on both your comment about pizza and the attitude Chicaoans have toward suburban people) and didn't mean to be rude. you are of course a Chicagoan.

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