English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

8:00 PM

Of course there are more possibilities. I just gave the ones that I would expect to have the highest frequency.

Vitaly

@Cerberus Ah but the dictionary is employing a frequency-based corpus-based approach

in fact, it marks + to INF and + that as “frequent”

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

There you go, @Rob. Get that book that @Vit just posted.

Cerberus

@Vitaly Right, that is good. But do they mean that to is more frequent than (that)?

I guess it greatly depends on your corpus.

In newspapers, perhaps. But in the kind of sentences Rob seemed to be after, I'd say (that) is the first one that comes to mind?

Vitaly

@Cerberus Probably not.

Cerberus

OK.

Vitaly

8:05 PM

@Cerberus They have apparently used the Cobuild corpus as their data. Which was the largest corpus in existence at that time.

Cerberus

It is good that they describe frequency at all.

@Vitaly It is not so much about size as about genre.

Vitaly

Yeah, right, I was just saying. :P

Rob

@MrShinyandNew安宇 It costs $300!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Rob yikes

looks like you can get it a bit cheaper. $278 on Amazon

but once you've memorized that whole book, you won't need to ask any more verb questions here. :)

Rob

:-)

That's the thing with English, there is too much to memorize.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

8:17 PM

@Rob what other languages have you studied?

because in my experience they're all like that

RegDwight Ѭſ道

0

A: Is "errored" correct usage?

Right click on the word. Select Add to Dictionary. Error is defined as a Noun, but we use it as a Verb, in another 10 years or so the Language Police will see the error in their ways, and allow us to use it as a Verb as well as a Noun, like Googling. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/...

I am right clicking like mad. No Add to Dictionary option.

Rob

@MrShinyandNew安宇 none (formally)

Cerberus

8:39 PM

@RegDwightѬſ道 Are you serious? You need to right-click on a red-underlined word.

In a text box.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Well that's not what the answer says.

Are you serious?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Man, after all this time and Shinto Sherlock's answer is still higher-rated than mine on that question? sheesh

Cerberus

RegDwight Ѭſ道

That is not what the answer says.

Cerberus

No? That's how I read it.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

8:45 PM

But whatever. Let you have it your way. I still do not have that option in any of the text boxes here.

@Cerberus The answer says, and I quote, "Right click on the word."

Well, I'm clicking.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I don't know, I would probably sit a bit closer to him than to you, I'm sorry to say.

@RegDwightѬſ道 I right-clicked on the word.

You mean the answer didn't mention it has to be in a text box?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

No, you cheated. You first typed the word in an environment you knew would have that option.

Here is the word: errored. Right-click on it now.

Cerberus

I personally inferred that from context.

Is it logical that you can add a word from a non-textbox?

I think not, so I didn't try that.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Cerberus where in the context does it so much as mention text boxes?

Cerberus

You mean the answerer should clarify that for inexperienced users?

@RegDwightѬſ道 The idea about context is that it doesn't mention anything...

RegDwight Ѭſ道

8:48 PM

No.

The answere should go away with that bit altogether.

Cerberus

I'm trying to understand your point but I don't see it, sorry.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Cerberus well sorry, the context does not make me think of textboxes.

Cerberus

It's clear to me.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus That's because you're a prescriptivist. Whereas I actually encounter the word "error" as a verb almost daily, thus, it's a word.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

The question asks, "why is errored wrong?" The answer says, "right click". What the hell?

Cerberus

8:49 PM

@RegDwightѬſ道 Why not? Don't you ever add things to your dictionary, or at least notice the option?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Cerberus what dictionary?

What options?

Cerberus

Sorry, I am nonplussed.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

I have right-clicked on a word for the first time in my life today.

Cerberus

I feel like I'm in a bog black hole.

@RegDwightѬſ道 Huh? Seriously?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Why would I right click on words?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

8:50 PM

@RegDwight The answer's assumption is that the OP's problem was discovered when a program underlined "errored" in red, as the SE chat does for me right now.

Cerberus

@RegDwightѬſ道 To auto-correct them, just as in Word?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Of course. I know that. That is Cerberus' assumption as well.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwightѬſ道 It's probably lots of people's assumptions.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

But I don't see a) how it is justified and b) how it helps people who do not assume that.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 It is not mine.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I want to give the answerer the kind of advice that he is looking for, which is style advice. And "errored" is just not the best choice, so I would emphasize that.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

8:52 PM

Yeah but you're not "most people".

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Cerberus what is Word?

We had that discussion before.

I never use Word. Ever.

Cerberus

LibreOffice, then.

Hotmail.

Anything.

Gmail.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Now you're just making fun of me.

Cerberus

?

I think it is the other way around.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Never used LibreOffice, wouldn't touch Hotmail.

Gmail I will give you.

Still, I use Gmail to compose emails. I do not use Gmail to right-click on words.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

8:54 PM

@Cerberus He said "If 'errored' is not a word... But why is 'errored' wrong? " To which I replied "It is a word. some people will consider it informal or slang." and I also provided some other ways to say it. Whereas Shinto's "erred" is not correct at all IMO. Computers don't "err" in the same way that they "error".

Cerberus

Anywhere with a spelling checker.

@RegDwightѬſ道 Okay, if you use neither Word nor LibreOffice, then what do you use to write stuff?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

I ignore spelling checkers because they are dumb computer programs and I am a human with a brain.

@Cerberus Kate.

Vitaly

@Cerberus some of us (I know I do) go FFFFUUUUU whenever a spellchecker is enabled by default and try to either disable it or stop using the software

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus @RegDwight doesn't write stuff. He only merges accounts into Thursagen.

3

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Oh. Well, I would not consider "is x a word" a serious question. I wouldn't even answer that. Anything is a word.

@Vitaly Why?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

8:55 PM

But anyhoo. Why oh why are we discussing my habits now, rather than the answer?

Cerberus

Look, I am a bit too tired for this. Most people use spelling checkers, and they are enabled by default in many, many programs, so it is not strange to expect someone to know how they work.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus You don't think the OP was feeling that "is x a word" is a serious question? Not everyone is secure in the knowledge that a word is a word if more than one person agrees that it is.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Even if I right-click on a word in a text box, I do not necessarily get the "Add to Dictionary" option. I have tried it in three programs now, and it was in zero of them.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 It is a question like "are these lines I draw a drawing?".

You could say yes, you could say no.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Cerberus it absolutely is.

Cerberus

8:57 PM

It is not a useful question.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

If most people can use spellcheckers, how do you explain the way people spell on the Internet?

How do you explain YouTube comments?

Cerberus

@RegDwightѬſ道 Most people use browsers, and it is enabled in most browsers by default.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Cerberus All people on YouTube use browsers.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus It is a question like that, except, that not everyone sees it that way. Some people, including, I would say, most school teachers, have very strong feelings about what is a word and what isn't. And they pass that on to their students in the form of an anxiety about what is/isn't a word.

@RegDwightѬſ道 Hey, I use youtube on a phone app, you insensitive clod!

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 It is either disguised style advice, or...what else?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

8:58 PM

How dare you make those assumptions.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@MrShinyandNew安宇 what options do you get if you right click on a word there?

Can you right click on a phone at all?

Does your phone have a mouse?

Cerberus

Phones have context menus.

But let's agree to disagree.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Cerberus The answer says "right click".

Cerberus

It is not a very important matter.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

I am holding a phone right now.

I cannot right click.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

8:59 PM

@Cerberus It functions as style advice. But it is not actually presented that way and I would guess that some teachers and some students actually believe that there is an authority (i.e. the dictionary, or someone) who decrees what is and isn't a word.

Cerberus

Call the context menu.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwightѬſ道 I can use my right hand to tap. I can't so much click.

@Cerberus Have you ever used an android phone? It doesn't really have context menus the way a PC does.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

I have called the context menu now.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Anyway, @Reg, would you feel better if the advice were just "Just tell your spell-checker to ignore that word"

@RegDwightѬſ道 Was it home? or did it go to voice mail

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Well, unless you're prepared to explain lots of basic concepts, why bother going into that at all with a novice user? Just give him the recommendation that you think he is actually after. So it's fine to tell him that some people use the word, but I wouldn't emphasise that so much that he thinks everybody will approve of it in any context. The safe choice is what such users are after.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Then how do you handle a particular file or selection or button or whatever?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

9:02 PM

The options are: "Symbol hinzu", "Objekt hinzu", "In MMS", "Schreiboptionen", "Kopieren+Einfüg.", "Hilfe".

Cerberus

So it has no spelling checker?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@MrShinyandNew安宇 that has been precisely my point all along. Thank you.

Cerberus

No red underlining?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

No red underlining.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I started by trying to correct his fundamental misunderstanding of language, i.e. that some words which he intuitively knows are words might not be words because someone told him so. Then I said that he might not want to use those words because they might be considered informal. I also gave him rewordings. Honestly how much more do you want? The shirt off my back?

Cerberus

9:05 PM

@MrShinyandNew安宇 That's OK, I have nothing against your answer. I didn't down-vote it or anything.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus "handle a particular file"... I'm not sure what you mean. These phones don't typically expect you to use a file manager to do things. You have a gallery app which lets you browse pics, media, etc. You tap an item and it plays. other actions appear on the screen. it varies from app to app.

Cerberus

It's just a matter of emphasis, as I have discussed with Kosmo on several occasions.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Whereas Shinto's answer "err" is just plain wrong.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Well, full disclosure. I never upvoted delete's answer, but I seem to have upvoted MrShiny's on 15 Sep 10. So sorry, I can't help.

Anyway. I'm off to color eggs.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Wrong? How so? He was explaining what kind of verb we have that is derived from the stem er-, and he said it was no good in that context.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

9:07 PM

@RegDwightѬſ道 My full disclosure: I recently downvoted Shinto's answer because more and more I think it's wrong. As Kosmo said in the comments to that answer.

Vitaly

@RegDwightѬſ道 Have fun colouring your eggs!

Cerberus

@RegDwightѬſ道 Break an egg!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

> You can actually say "The program erred at line 44", but it's not very idiomatic. "Err" also occurs in the saying "To err is human, to forgive is divine".

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 What if you want to copy a file, then?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I have never wanted to do that.

Cerberus

9:08 PM

Well, if you do, I bet you will use a context menu in whatever file explorer you use!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Saying that a program "errs" at line 44 is completely different than "errored" at line 44. Not just "not idiomatic". Completely different.

Cerberus

Would you ever say the former?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Not likely, but if I did, it would be because the logic of the program is incorrect, as opposed to a programming error that causes the program to fail.

eg. If the program is supposed to sort alphabetically but is case-sensitive (and shouldn't be) then you could say it "errs". If it's supposed to sort alphabetically but it crashes, then it errored.

But also I would probably only say "errored" if it showed an error message.

Cerberus

Right, well, I think the "not likely" is what matters: it is just unidiomatic. But, sure, he could have emphasised that a bit more, as in "the verb err exists, but it is normally used with a person, not a computer programme".

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus No, it's not just that it's unlikely. It's that it refers to two different kinds of actions.

Anyway I must be off. Happy easter everyone!

Cerberus

9:14 PM

OK bye!

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Perhaps it is that I am unfamiliar with using err for a programme. I guess it is a technical word, then?

I would never use that, ever.

So, if I understood you correctly, Shinto's answer could be improved by adding that it has a special meaning in a technical context that many people won't know about? Because I have never seen that anywhere in Windows or elsewhere. It is always about encountering errors. And the AHK manual doesn't use it either, hehe.

Vitaly

9:27 PM

patternbank.uni-erlangen.de/cgi-bin/…

user19161

9:38 PM

I think the last time I coloured an egg was two decades ago.

David Wallace

10:04 PM

@Cerberus You're assuming he makes mistakes.

Cerberus

@DavidWallace Right! Stupid of me.

David Wallace

One day, Reg will spell something wrong as he types a document. Then he'll say to himself "I wonder what that red, wavy line means. I've never seen that before".

5

Cerberus

Hahaha exactly.

Then look who's crying and who's laughing!

And who's hooting and who's barking! Or something.

Mahnax

Hello everybody.

Cerberus

Hai.

Back from school?

Mahnax

10:18 PM

Yep.

I'm all wet.

Cerberus

I have been badgering the people in Cooking for more than an hours about the lemon cake I'm going to bake.

Mahnax

Wherefore badgerest thou?

kiamlaluno

I cake a lemon, and I bake a cake.

Mahnax

Wherefore thou badgerest? I don't even know any more.

kiamlaluno

Should I call that a lemon cake, or a cake bake?

Mahnax

10:20 PM

Bake a lemon, get a cake, throw a rake, show a fake.

Crow a lake.

David Wallace

Good morning.

Mahnax

Gosh, even low a shake.

David Wallace

I tried to say it earlier, but my internet died just as Mahnax arrived.

Mahnax

Hm, my presence disturbed your internet connection.

kiamlaluno

@Mahnax That is to complete the stuff, isn't it?

Mahnax

10:21 PM

@kiamlaluno Stuff a crake!

kiamlaluno

I feel a disturbance in the Internets.

Mahnax

You have much to learn, padawan.

user19161

@Mahnax You call everyone a Padawan.

Mahnax

@WillHunting Yes indeed, padawan.

kiamlaluno

I am a Padan.

user19161

10:23 PM

I answered a religious question on Good Friday. How befitting!

kiamlaluno

Bewell, befitting, beyourself.

user19161

But I don't get the other two answers on the yield question. Maybe they misread the question.

Mahnax

Stow a-wake!

kiamlaluno

What happens if I summon all the EL&U users?

Mahnax

Uh, nothing.

user19161

10:26 PM

@kiamlaluno How?

Mahnax

You can't just summon all of the EL&Uers.

kiamlaluno

Would not that cause a disturbance on the Internets?

@Mahnax I can. :)

Mahnax

@kiamlaluno ORLY HOWZ

user19161

@Mahnax It is a secret.

user19161

I watched "Angels and demons". The ending surprised me.

Mahnax

10:28 PM

@WillHunting FYNE

user19161

But I much prefer "The Da Vinci code".

kiamlaluno

That would be 1503 users called in chat. Uhmmm… ;)

user19161

@kiamlaluno The chat will collapse.

kiamlaluno

How many users would actually enter in chat?

Mahnax

Three.

No, seven.

kiamlaluno

10:31 PM

I would bet on 20-30 users, not more.

Including Shinto Shirlock, of course.

Mahnax

Didn't he delete his account?

user19161

I only know Sherlock Holmes.

user19161

And his dear Watson.

kiamlaluno

@Mahnax I said I would summon users. How good would I be, if I cannot get him to use this chat? ;)

Mahnax

@kiamlaluno Summon him then!

user19161

10:39 PM

If we cannot summon him, we can summons him!

kiamlaluno

@WillHunting Exactly! If we can bake a cake, we can bake a lemon!

Mahnax

And then shake a gremlin!

kiamlaluno

@Mahnax That is only for limes. It's because the color.

user19161

Wait, do you guys get my joke above?

Mahnax

@kiamlaluno Colour-schmolour. Shake a gremlin, pick a lemon.

@WillHunting What joke?

kiamlaluno

10:42 PM

@WillHunting It is midnight here. I will possibly get it when I wake up.

user19161

oald8.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/dictionary/summons_2

user19161

3 mins ago, by Will Hunting

If we cannot summon him, we can summons him!

Mahnax

@WillHunting No offence, but I wouldn't call it a joke, per se.

user19161

@Mahnax My humour is beyond your understanding, padawan.

Mahnax

@WillHunting Thou shall not refer to me as padawan. It is a title that I have reserved for others.

user19161

10:45 PM

@kiamlaluno Then go to bed!

Mahnax

I understand it perfectly well.

kiamlaluno

There, you got your star too. :)

@WillHunting I wish I could sleep, but it's a wish without hopes. :)

user19161

@kiamlaluno Well, you can sleep if you believe.

user19161

There can be miracles when you believe.

kiamlaluno

It sounds like Paduan.

I suddenly feel the urge of… BRB.

user19161

10:52 PM

@kiamlaluno Sounds like pee or poo. Enjoy!

Mahnax

@WillHunting headdesk

user19161

@Mahnax facepalm

Mahnax

@WillHunting neighs

RegDwight Ѭſ道

-1

A: "Plausible" vs. "possible"

Possible is when catepillars that are native to South America wiggle around in ferocious movements. Plausible is when Kelsea wiggles around in ferocious movements.

A more plausible answer is not possible.

user19161

@RegDwightѬſ道 If thou canst believe, all things are possible.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

10:59 PM

0

Q: Using Conform(s) to/ Confirm

Which one of these sentences is better to use?: 1)The media and policymakers divide the world into the bad guys and good guys, and many news coverage conforms to such division. 2)The media and policymakers divide the world into the bad guys and good guys, and many news coverage conform to such ...

grammar

This question is hilarious.

Mahnax

user19161

@Mahnax That looks like Jackie Chan.

Mahnax

@WillHunting It is.

user19161

@Mahnax His Chinese name is Chen Long.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

And his wife's name is Chaise.

Vitaly

11:18 PM

Okay, why hasn't anyone here mentioned that EL&U was linked to on LanguageLog in a post dated March 26?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

In the post proper?

Vitaly

Well, it is quite visible: languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3866

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Yeah I'm halfway through already.

And the first comment is by one John Lawler.

John Lawler, Bellingham WA

10.2k 7 28

grammaticality verbs meaning word-choice single-word-requests etymology grammar

And the original request was sent by one Brett Reynolds.

Brett Reynolds, Toronto, Canada

4.2k 5 17

grammaticality meaning single-word-requests grammar differences word-choice grammatical-number

Everybody high five Brett.

Vitaly

@Reg how do you feel about most are far from avid about Judaism and being arrogant to the weak?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Er what?

Vitaly

11:30 PM

do those phrases strike you as unusual word-choice-wise?

kiamlaluno

@WillHunting It's what I would have said myself.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Vitaly they kind of do, indeed.

Vitaly

@RegDwightѬſ道 How so?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

But that could be due to your suggestive question.

Vitaly

I am asking because avid about and arrogant to are marked rare in A Valency Dictionary

RegDwight Ѭſ道

11:41 PM

@Vitaly I don't think "avid" and "Judaism" mix like that. In fact I am pretty sure that if I googled for "be avid about" I would get exceptionally few results.

Oh, jinx.

KitFox

I would think "avid users" and related constructions sound more common than "avid about" something, but it is understandable and doesn't sound particularly odd.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Vitaly I wouldn't say "arrogant" is rare per se... but again, it somehow doesn't mix with the "to the weak" following it.

KitFox

But "arrogant to" sounds dated to me.

Vitaly

Okay, thanks.

KitFox

Usually people are arrogant about something, not toward a group of people.

It's still understandable, but the modern expression would probably be "snobbish toward" or something.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

11:43 PM

@KitFox that's a good example. I was thinking how "avid" would totally work simply as an adjective before a noun.

In fact now that you've mentioned "avid users" I remember that that's the phrase they use throughout Area 51.

KitFox

I imagine it is pretty common.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

0

Q: Word implying hopes, dreams, and cynicism

commented: @RegDwight - please, reopen my question. Other people may be interested.

Somehow Carlo still doesn't get why his questions get closed.

A pity!

KitFox

Maybe we can explain it better the next time he is in here.

If only I knew Italian.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

I hope so.

KitFox

And teenspeak.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

11:46 PM

I did leave a comment for the time being.

But seriously, what kind of site would we be (or any of our siblings, for that matter), if people would just close vote things as uninteresting.

We wouldn't have a single question open, except a bunch of really poor bikesheddings.

KitFox

He's going to claw his way to 10K.

I can feel it in my bones.

How do I find IIS on a SQL server installation?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Given enough time, everyone here will be at 10k. Except Thursagen, of course.

KitFox

And Joe Blow?

kiamlaluno

@KitFox I know Italian!

KitFox

Great! Can you explain our question guidelines to Carlo?

Mahnax

11:49 PM

@RegDwightѬſ道 Even me?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@KitFox well he's at 30 already. Consult your bones' feelings.

No wait. He's at 30 for this year.

KitFox

Bones feel...nope. He's not gonna make it.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

1,128 in toto.

kiamlaluno

@KitFox Do I explain it the usual Italian way? È così (it is so).

RegDwight Ѭſ道

This stupid default sorting on the Users page keeps playing tricks on me.

kiamlaluno

11:51 PM

And they say Italian sentences are longer.

@RegDwightѬſ道 I would start worrying when it starts playing cards.

Mahnax

@kiamlaluno Yeah, then you've got a problem.

KitFox

I would start worrying when it starts turning tricks on you.

A man's got to get his percentage, you know what I'm saying?

kiamlaluno

@Mahnax The problem is that I play a card game, and it plays a different, unrelated one.

Mahnax

@kiamlaluno Darn, eh?

kiamlaluno

@KitFox I turn bricks. Does that count, in someway?

Well, I count bricks too.

KitFox

11:55 PM

Uh, not so much.

kiamlaluno

@Mahnax Yes, and it even pretends it is the winner!

Mahnax

@kiamlaluno Okay, that's just ridiculous.

KitFox

@Vitaly How are you feeling today?

kiamlaluno

I can also turn bricks in … never mind. That is super-secret; I can just talk about that with me, myself, and Albert. (We must be in three, or we cannot even start talking about that.)

KitFox

Very good.

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…