English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

RegDwight ΒВB

09:07

Wow, this one takes the prize.

-1

A: "half an hour" or "half hour"

Why use "an" instead of "a" ???

This is an answer.

Matt Эллен

salty

@Reg do you remember if we have a question about words like barely, nearly, almost, etc. tending to mean less than unless otherwise specified?

RegDwight ΒВB

Hm. Don't think so.

-1

A: When should I use "do I" versus "am I" when asking a question?

The verb "need" cannot be used as a gerund (needing) in a progressive/continuous tense sentence although many non-native speakers of English use it because they were never taught the rule (Judge Milan from the People's Court often says, I am knowing or I am liking, which are both incorrect): othe...

This is just awful.

Matt Эллен

I was writing a comment refuting his claim, but then I thought I misunderstood what he was saying, so I didn't

RegDwight ΒВB

09:22

He has a point. But he brings it across in the worst way imaginable.

He doesn't even know what a gerund is.

Wevs. Not an answer.

And the question is a prime candidate for ELL.

Gigili

09:51

@JasperLoy Because.

@Vitaly: What do you suggest?

And why on-line?

Matt Эллен

10:09

@Gigili because online isn't a word in their spell checker? My spell checker gives me a red squigley for it. I'm happy to ignore it, knowing one day usage will prevail

RegDwight ΒВB

I think your title needs some use–mention distinction, @Matt. I had trouble deciphering it.)))

Matt Эллен

OK

RegDwight ΒВB

Ah. So much better grammar for to increase.

Matt Эллен

:D

Gigili

@MattЭллен Gee, for online or on-line? On line?

Matt Эллен

10:13

@Gigili for online. my spell checker does not think online is a word, but I think it is

RegDwight ΒВB

On line is just a misspelling of en lion. Also, an anagram thereof.

Gigili

@MattЭллен I hate to say it but your spell checker is stupid.

Matt Эллен

@Gigili I prefer inaccurate ;)

RegDwight ΒВB

Are there spell checkers that are not?

Spell checker, n.: (techn.) inaccurate stupid thing. (Marryam-Webstar).

3

Matt Эллен

:D

RegDwight ΒВB

10:18

0

Q: Look Out Over Garden

I have a question. The room looks out over the garden. The room looks over the garden. Are look out over and look over different? What does out add?

I've been living in a déjà vu for days on end.

Matt Эллен

courage. Nortonn S could be said to have courage.

if by courage I mean bloodymindedness

RegDwight ΒВB

Yeah. I was just going to say that courage is when you go fight pirates in Somalia. Posting on the Internet courage is not.

Matt Эллен

:D indeed

well, unless you're in an oppressive regime that arrests people who post online

That's not what happens at EL&U. Right?

RegDwight ΒВB

Wait and see. It's seeing that is believing, after all.

Matt Эллен

The proof of the believing is in the seeing

not that my eyes have ever played tricks on me

RegDwight ΒВB

10:22

This is the entire idea behind the Internet: siteseeing.

2

Matt Эллен

:D

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

11:47

-1

Q: When should I use "do I" versus "am I" when asking a question?

I'm confused about when to use "do I" and "am I." For example, if a student wants to ask my teacher if it is necessary to read this book to get an A, what should be asked between "do I need to read this book to get an A" or "am I need to read this book to get an A"?

verbs questions

Why is this question off topic?

Gigili

It is not off topic, it's awful.

2 hours ago, by RegDwight ΒВB

This is just awful.

Awfully off topic, maybe.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I guess I'm not even sure what our topic is anymore.

Matt Эллен

Why do my posts cause such controversy? Suddenly 30.001 isn't almost 30?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattЭллен suddenly? Like, it was almost 30, until BANG! it wasn't

I guess when your limit of 30.00099999999999999999999999999999999999... was finally reached at 30.001, that was when it happened.

Matt Эллен

31 down to 30 in thousandths. 30.001 is almost 30

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

11:51

@MattЭллен I'm not disagreeing.

Matt Эллен

30.001 is still greater than 30

@MrShinyandNew安宇 oh ok. Roaring Fish has me all confushed

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

who?

Matt Эллен

I have a question: english.stackexchange.com/questions/73457/…

and roaring fish disagrees with me that almost can mean greater than. I'm saying some synonyms are greater than by default and some are less than by default

I don't know anymore

Anyway. I'm not going to look at it again until I'm home.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I just posted an answer for you

Gigili

Haha, he's going to look at it again.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

12:01

I wonder how many US users will be here today

Matt Эллен

@MrShinyandNew安宇 thanks! I will have a look later.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 oh yeah! It's the day they celebrate their betrayal of their King.

RegDwight ΒВB

@MrShinyandNew安宇 because it's too basic. No native speaker would ever ask it.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwightΒВB That's our new criteria?

RegDwight ΒВB

@MrShinyandNew安宇 no.

That's our old criteria.

> This is a free, community driven Q&A for linguists, etymologists, and serious English language enthusiasts.

We expect you to have a certain basic grasp of English. Always have.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwightΒВB I dunno. Some aspects of English are really complicated and worth discussing even if native users never think about these things and would never ask the question.

RegDwight ΒВB

12:15

@MrShinyandNew安宇 oh absolutely.

Note how this very question could have been turned into something way more interesting (even though still very basic) by asking "why" instead of "what".

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwightΒВB and do-support is one of those topics, and that's what that question was about.

Matt Эллен

I ask the questions other native speakers don't bother with!

RegDwight ΒВB

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I beg to differ.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwightΒВB well, whatever. It just seems to me that by having "writers", "ELL", "Linguistics", etc, there is not much else left for us to discuss here.

RegDwight ΒВB

The question was simply, do I have to use do-support or am-support for this particular verb in this particular situation.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

12:18

I guess part of my problem is that I fundamentally disagree with the notion that a slightly different topic requires a wholly separate site.

Even if that site doesn't exist yet

RegDwight ΒВB

Yeah.

Well that's the other direction that we could go. Allow any and all questions about English.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Oh well. Stackexchange is just this chat room for me now.

RegDwight ΒВB

I think there are like 60 sites in beta right now. It sure is frightening.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwightΒВB That's what most people expect when they come here, and then they are surprised when their question about poetry interpretation is off-topic, or their ELL grammar question is off-topic, or their linguistics question which uses English as an example is off-topic, or their "I have two synonyms, what's the difference" question is off-topic, or their "what are some/all the examples of X" is off-topic.

@RegDwightΒВB It is brand fragmentation

And a PITA to have to create different accounts, even if the creation is mostly automatic.

RegDwight ΒВB

I honestly have no idea what TPTB want.

Matt Эллен

12:25

they want to pretend that all other subjects can be treated like programming in c#

RegDwight ΒВB

That's a tad over the top. I think they are well aware that there are subjects for which the SE format just does not work. We have all seen those sites fail.

Matt Эллен

true

Jeff criticised Arqade née Gaming several times, despite it being a success, because he didn't like the types of questions that the site attracts. Luckily the user base was stronger than him.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I mean, I can agree with the notion of separating, say, the religion sites from the programming sites. But why separate the language sites so much? Part of the problem is that the "community" defines the sites and the "community" just parrots back whatever Joel and Jeff blogged about or talked about in the podcast.

@MattЭллен What about how in the early days the sites like cooking, gaming, etc, had their own domains? And it was decided that that was dumb, so they all went to *.stackexchange.com

RegDwight ΒВB

Part of the problem is that there is no community.

People will answer anything and everything. Random passersby coming via the MC will upvote the worst shit.

We have what, 12k users now? How many of them do you think even know who Joel or Jeff even are?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwightΒВB Yes, but I was referring to the a51 community, who define the sites, and make little silos because that's what J&J wanted

RegDwight ΒВB

12:34

Hah. Well, on that site there is even less of a community.

Matt Эллен

@RegDwightΒВB I want to do a poll now.

RegDwight ΒВB

But anyway. I don't think little silos are a problem per se. When they are, stuff just gets merged.

Gigili

I believe it valid sounds awkward to me. Shouldn't it be "I believe it's valid" or "I believe it to be valid"?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

If you ask me, I think the language sites, or at least the "english" sites, should all be one site, just like StackOverflow is one big site with lots of sub-topics. That's what tags are for. And SO even has that feature where you can have a subdomain that shows tag-specific reputation.

@Gigili Yes. Well... maybe.

RegDwight ΒВB

Guitars got merged into Musical Performance, Poker got merged into Board Games...

Matt Эллен

12:36

@Gigili it's kinda archaic

like "I believe him honest" or something

RegDwight ΒВB

@MrShinyandNew安宇 well there is one rather obvious problem with languages. They are different languages. You'd have a front page 90% of which you just plain can't read. And the remaining 10% would be a vs. an questions.

Matt Эллен

lol

RegDwight ΒВB

I wouldn't frequent that site.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwightΒВB I don't think it needs to be that way

Matt Эллен

I suppose human language differ from the programming ones

even I can read ruby

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

12:38

For one thing, your browser advertises a language you probably can read

RegDwight ΒВB

@MrShinyandNew安宇 yeah I suppose there can be a technical solution. But that's not the direction we've been taking.

Matt Эллен

I'm not so sure about perl...

Gigili

@MattЭллен Isn't it different from "I found it nice"?

RegDwight ΒВB

@MrShinyandNew安宇 my browser advertises French and Japanese. I don't know shit about either. And I am someone who knows what that even is. Most people can't tell a browser from a hole in the ground. They just want to know why "an chair" is correct but everyone says "a chair" instead.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwightΒВB Most people's browser advertises the language of their OS which they can read.

RegDwight ΒВB

12:40

It would also be a hell of a task to moderate that site.

Matt Эллен

@Gigili it's similar. the problem comes from the simple use of believe e.g "I believe him"

RegDwight ΒВB

You'd need several mods per language allowed.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Anyway, fine, I agree that it might be cumbersome to mix the various languages together, though we could just easily restrict them to subdomains by default unless you opt-in.

@RegDwightΒВB Sure, fine. That's how it is already

Gigili

@MattЭллен I see, thanks.

Matt Эллен

or does it?

RegDwight ΒВB

12:41

@MrShinyandNew安宇 just look at it this way: we still can't have umlauts in tags. It's ASCII. And you are talking about some shit that's way more advanced than Unicode support.

Matt Эллен

@Gigili actually I'm talking nonsense.

hmmm

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwightΒВB What does umlauts in tags have to do with it? And why do tags have to be ascii?

RegDwight ΒВB

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I am just saying that you are talking about a technical solution to a non-trivial problem. So far we can't have technical solutions even to laughably trivial problems.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Gigili I think you can say something like "I believe it true"... so why not "believe it valid". But I wouldn't call it common.

@RegDwightΒВB I don't see how it differs materially from what they are already doing on facebook.stackexchange.com

Matt Эллен

I believe
I think
I know
I believe him
*I think him
I know him
I believe him nice
I think him nice
*I know him nice

RegDwight ΒВB

12:43

@MrShinyandNew安宇 well, yes and no. In order to mirror the current situation on a single site, you'd expressly have to say, "French, Russian, English, German, Japanese are on-topic; Ukrainian, Tamil, Portuguese are not."

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwightΒВB True. If we require a mod who can speak a certain language before we can support that language, that could be a problem. But that isn't a new problem.

Matt Эллен

I believe him to be nice
I think him to be nice
I know him to be nice

RegDwight ΒВB

@MattЭллен I think we have a question for that.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I think it's dumb that if I am a language student, I have to visit a bunch of separate sites to get my questions answered. Not just separate pages on one site, separate sites.

RegDwight ΒВB

13

Q: I think him to be about 50 or I think he is about 50?

I have two options. Which one is correct? a) I think him to be about 50. b) I think he is about 50 If both are correct, should I avoid one or the other?

grammar

@MrShinyandNew安宇 that is true, but the idea is that you don't have to worry because the nice people will handle the migration for you.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

12:46

I would probably spend more time asking and answering on French and Chinese if their questions could be mixed in with English.

@RegDwightΒВB Well, the migration isn't all that automatic. Most migration paths require mods or are impossible.

RegDwight ΒВB

Plus they are working hard on turning StackExchange into a central hub where you have all your stuff in one place.

Robusto

@Cerberus What software is that? I use Digital Performer with its QuickScribe music notation feature.

RegDwight ΒВB

People have been asking for that for years.

This is not a new problem.

Robusto

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Poor you.

RegDwight ΒВB

I think once they have 800 sites rather than 8 it will become apparent to everyone.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

12:49

AFK

Robusto

@RegDwightΒВB I just can't wait till we can "Like" corporations and products on StackExchange. That's what is chiefly needed around here.

Matt Эллен

@RegDwightΒВB Interesting. I think I've read it before. I disagree with Peter Shor, and agree with FumbleFingers.

RegDwight ΒВB

There should be a Dislike Facebook button. No wait, that's ambiguous. There should be a "Dislike Facebook" button. On every page on the Internet.

Matt Эллен

:D

Robusto

How about a "Fuck Facebook" button?

The design could be cool, with that double F.

Gigili

12:51

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Umm, I find it true sounds fine but I believe it true does not."believe". Perhaps I should go to see a doctor.

Matt Эллен

how about a "book a face fuck" button?

Robusto

FFITA. Or FFBITA.

RegDwight ΒВB

May 7 at 18:48, by RegDwight ΒВBẞ8

There they had the chance of a lifetime to go with Fecebook, and they went with Fuckbook instead. Morons, what should I say.

Robusto

Hey, there will always be a market for poontang.

RegDwight ΒВB

Yeah, in Bang Kok.

Robusto

12:53

In Djerbouti, no less.

RegDwight ΒВB

Greece is always helpful, too.

Robusto

So that's where sodomy got started. Or at least popularized.

Matt Эллен

I hear some enjoy Spain

Robusto

@MattЭллен You mean European Football Champion Spain?

RegDwight ΒВB

May 11 at 16:24, by Robusto

@MattЭллен Nothing could be Worcester.

Robusto

12:55

Sauce for the goose.

RegDwight ΒВB

Srauce for the grouse.

Robusto

May 11 at 16:09, by Robusto

I was Woking down in Surrey the other day ... damn me if I didn't feel like doing a couple of Somersets. But then I would have had to take a Bath.

Why does the porridge bird lay its eggs in the air?

Matt Эллен

I don't know. Why does the porridge bird lay its eggs in the air?

Robusto

To get to the other slide.

Matt Эллен

lol

RegDwight ΒВB

12:58

I thought that's what Powerpoint was for.

Robusto

That's what a lot of people think. Powerpoint is actually a powerful sleep-inducing agent.

RegDwight ΒВB

Agent dormeur, huh.

Robusto

In fact, if I'm ever having difficulty sleeping, I open my laptop and open up any of the marketing department's Powerpoint attachments and set it on auto. My record for staying awake after that is four slides.

@RegDwightΒВB Farce majeure.

You know, I try to abstract away the work I do from its marketing origins. I try to think of it as a simple building process, finding the best way to accomplish a result. But then marketing keeps rubbing my nose in its useless purpose. It's almost like they're trying to ruin my fun.

RegDwight ΒВB

@Robusto I like playing in Farce major but I like singing in Farce sharp.

Robusto

I didn't think you spoke Farcee — oh wait, now I remember. That's all you speak, no matter the language.

Would you describe George W. Bush as being the Heir Farce? He flew a fighter jet from time to time in the Heir National Guard, IIRC.

RegDwight ΒВB

13:05

Farcee is for protégés. Farcer is for mentors.

Robusto

@RegDwightΒВB Thanks for reminding me. I had almost forgotten about the downvotes I received for pairing those two.

RegDwight ΒВB

Dubya's hair sure is a farce.

@Robusto +44 -5. You will survive.

Robusto

Wanna play spellcheckers? It's easier than spellchess, I hear.

RegDwight ΒВB

I am not familiar with French titles of nobility.

Robusto

@RegDwightΒВB Still, no check mark.

@RegDwightΒВB It's a British title, actually. Haven't you ever heard of the Chancellor of the Ex-Spellchecker?

Matt Эллен

13:10

@RegDwightΒВB how do you spell chess in French you're welcome

RegDwight ΒВB

@MattЭллен that's not chess in French. That's ass in Turkish.

Robusto

@MattЭллен It's pronounced "lazy chicks."

Matt Эллен

gotcha!

I'll be sure to say that next time I'm in France

Robusto

In France, "lazy chick" is an idiom meaning "virgin."

Matt Эллен

:D

RegDwight ΒВB

13:12

There are virgins in France? Now you're just making stuff up.

Robusto

I am.

RegDwight ΒВB

Therefore you think?

Robusto

There are, in fact, no virgins in all of Europe, IIRC.

Well, maybe in Greece.

Matt Эллен

What about the Virgin Mary? Isn't she in the Vatican?

RegDwight ΒВB

Was Vati kann, kann Mutti auch.

Robusto

13:15

She's just a concept, a figment of a fevered clerical imagination.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Robusto

@RegDwightΒВB Also, Mutti kann Vati im Arsch ficken?

RegDwight ΒВB

Wait, is our premise that Europe actually exists? I'm still catching up.

@Robusto hahaha. The dative makes it so much funnier.

Robusto

@RegDwightΒВB Europe is just a concept, a figment of a fevered clerical imagination.

Matt Эллен

clerics are just concepts, figments of a fevered clerical imagination

Robusto

13:17

@RegDwightΒВB Ah, you're right. Should be in den Arsch. Well, like I say, I've forgotten nearly all my German.

RegDwight ΒВB

Kelly Clerk's Son is just a concept, a figment of a fevered clerical imagination.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

13

Q: I think him to be about 50 or I think he is about 50?

I have two options. Which one is correct? a) I think him to be about 50. b) I think he is about 50 If both are correct, should I avoid one or the other?

grammar

Robusto

Let's not bring American Idle into this.

RegDwight ΒВB

Billy or Eric?

Matt Эллен

33 mins ago, by RegDwight ΒВB

13

Q: I think him to be about 50 or I think he is about 50?

I have two options. Which one is correct? a) I think him to be about 50. b) I think he is about 50 If both are correct, should I avoid one or the other?

grammar

RegDwight ΒВB

13:19

What is this grammar?

Robusto

@RegDwightΒВB Tennyson. Idles of the King.

RegDwight ΒВB

@Robusto I think you mean Idle of Man.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattЭллен What? 33 mins? my screen said 9... wtf?

RegDwight ΒВB

Your screen talks?

Robusto

@RegDwightΒВB I mean Circe's Aisle.

Matt Эллен

13:20

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I don't make the times

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Whoops wrong tab

2

Q: To Look Out Over Garden

"The room looks out over the garden." "The room looks over the garden." Are look out over and look over different? What does "out" add?

grammar idioms prepositions usage

RegDwight ΒВB

@Robusto It's the Circe of life.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Is this a user we've been banning or something?

Matt Эллен

I'm sure it's Nortonn S

Robusto

"Circe's Aisle" by me

It's hard to tell why feminine hygiene
hides on the other side of a pegged divide,
turned away from all the mouthwash, floss,
balms and oil of clove; or why so many
faces on so many boxes and cans so full
of so much promise of beauty and sex so much
avoid your eye as if they understand one day
you'll walk in here and buy a tube of toothpaste
that will last you the rest of your life.

RegDwight ΒВB

13:22

Beautiful. A flying circe's.

Robusto

1

Q: ..can stop the equipement work/working/from working?

Just returned from the English exam and there was one sentence, not exatly sure about the wording the point was: The overheating can stop the equipement FUNCTION/TO FUNCTION/FROM FUNCTIONING/FUNCTIONING What is the correct one and why? Thank you

word-choice grammar

ESL.

Matt Эллен

I can't stop dance/to dance/dancing/from dancing

RegDwight ΒВB

Someone post an ELL promo comment. I'm tired.

Robusto

I did.

Matt Эллен

So did I

damn it

RegDwight ΒВB

13:27

We already have three questions at 11. Someone's not getting it.

I keep revoking my upvotes from highest-voted questions and putting them on lower ones.

We need more example questions, too.

Cerberus

13:48

Hi.

> In a 478 to 39 vote, the Parliament decided to reject ACTA once and for all. This means that the deceptive treaty is now dead globally.

Yay!

Fuck you, Van der Gucht!

Matt Эллен

yay!

we should throw a street party

RegDwight ΒВB

Cerberus

Haha very nice!

The European system is just too big and complex to destroy by lobbying and bribing.

Matt Эллен

at the moment

RegDwight ΒВB

Nah. It's just that all those people download music, too.

Matt Эллен

13:52

:D

RegDwight ΒВB

When it comes to cucumbers, they suddenly are much less reasonable.

Matt Эллен

me too

cucumbers don't grow on trees, you know?

RegDwight ΒВB

You can bribe the European system into coercing them into.

Cerberus

@MattЭллен I think this is the tipping point.

RegDwight ΒВB

@Cerberus wait till Ipred comes along.

Oh wait, it already is coming along.

Cerberus

13:54

We already have Ipred.

RegDwight ΒВB

QED

Matt Эллен

iPred 2. hmmmm

RegDwight ΒВB

The new iPred.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus where we start our slide into a new era of small, decentralised, communal states?

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Errr no.

RegDwight ΒВB

13:56

Communist states.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus oh, then it's not important

I'm only interested if it involves unisex showering

Cerberus

Where the music labels die, and consensus emerges about internet freedom.

RegDwight ΒВB

Dream on, dreamer.

Cerberus

@MattЭллен You are free to view unisex showering on the internet, without having to opt in, as your government proposes.

Matt Эллен

it would be interesting if the US kept the old model for entertainment production, while Europe embraces the internet's scattershot approach

RegDwight ΒВB

13:58

If the past 20 years have proven anything, it's that they have all the money in the world and they are not in a hurry. It might take them another 20 years to come up with the next ACTA, but come up with the next ACTA they will.

Cerberus

@RegDwightΒВB I don't know. There already is consensus in Holland, and so far we have never gone back on our course.

RegDwight ΒВB

@Cerberus yeah, right. Like with Moslems or drugs or anything.

Cerberus

@MattЭллен The US cannot do that, unless they completely destroy the Internets.

@RegDwightΒВB Why pessimistic?

RegDwight ΒВB

How is that pessimistic?

It is their damn job to do that.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus they can make it illegal in their country and try and prosecute anyone caught in their country.

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…