English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

12:00 AM

They are yours!

Joseph Weissman

@Cerberus so you think Android is coming into its own as a real rival platform?

Cerberus

Joseph Weissman

Wow! Though I'm having trouble figuring out the timescale

Cerberus

The months in 2010 and 2011. First 1/1/2010, then 2/1/2010, etc.

I actually think the predictions didn't entirely come true.

Joseph Weissman

Some of that has just got to be expected given the pricing model, right? There's such a wide variety of Android devices, a lot of which don't cost a few hundred bucks -- and not all of which have feature parity with iOS devices

David Wallace

12:10 AM

Do you guys feel that there's a minimum standard that answers ought to be?

0

Q: Tagged question and perfect tence

I've just passed one of numerous English grammar online tests. And I agree with all the mistakes I've made except of this one: You ??? put it back before the boss comes back, won't you? will have won't have will have The system has marked my answer 3 as incorrect, and 1 as ...

grammar

I don't want to honour this person's request - my comment is not detailed enough to be an answer. Or am I being too hard on myself?

Jez

perfect tence? is that like the perfect nince?

Joseph Weissman

@David If it could (easily) fit in a comment, it's probably a comment...

I don't get why you wouldn't want to "honor the request" -- it seems like an earnest question. Maybe I'm just misunderstanding you, though.

Cerberus

@JosephWeissman That is possible...

(Reformatted the table.

In Photoshop.)

But "smartphones" implies fairly capable phones.

David Wallace

@JosephWeissman No, I mean, he wants me to turn my comment into an answer. Presumably so he can accept it.

Joseph Weissman

@DavidWallace ahhh, sorry!

Yeah, I probably wouldn't either.

@Cerberus yeah, the feature parity point is definitely not sufficient to explain the gap.

Cerberus

12:19 AM

@JosephWeissman Android is just winning, that's all.

Joseph Weissman

I might suggest it's about ecosystem -- what I might call the 'crystal palace sandbox' Apple puts you in.

David Wallace

@JosephWeissman OK, thanks.

Cerberus

@JosephWeissman As in, it closes people off, and they don't like it?

^ Applications in the App Store.

^ Android store.

Joseph Weissman

Jeepers.

Cerberus

Android's store is probably overtaking Apple's as we speak.

Joseph Weissman

12:23 AM

This very instant perhaps!

Cerberus

Wow, what was that?

I heard a woosh.

Joseph Weissman

A tremor in the force.

Cerberus

Oh, dear.

A shift in the Balance of Power.

I still wonder about that first sales table.

Oh, no, it is in thousands.

So 80 million Android smartphones were sold in Q1.

That makes sense.

Joseph Weissman

So what would be the message for Apple? Open up your platform, make more cost-friendly iToys?

Jez

►

I guess I'm asking the wrong people in here, but....... why would you vote for the GOP, especially in Texas?

Joseph Weissman

12:27 AM

Because you're a nihilist?

Jez

hardly

they love established religion

and the big oil companies, and plenty of other authorities

David Wallace

@Jez you don't like Obama?

Joseph Weissman

> We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority.

Cerberus

@JosephWeissman I think so...but Android itself seems to have advanced way past IOS (thanks to IOS, by the way). In any case, they still have tablet dominance, at least fora year or so.

Jez

@DavidWallace That's no reason to vote GOP, is it?

Joseph Weissman

12:30 AM

@Jez I love Cenk. "Bow your head! Bow your head and listen to authority!"

David Wallace

@Jez Isn't it?

Joseph Weissman

Good times.

Jez

@DavidWallace of course not

you don't instill Hitler to get rid of Mugabe

Cerberus

@JosephWeissman Haha, that is incredibly funny. Such self-mockery!

I'm not sure what OBE is, but it may be something I deplore.

Not for the same reasons as these silly people, however.

Joseph Weissman

Outcome-based education

Outcome-based education (OBE) is a student-centered learning philosophy that focuses on empirically measuring student performance, which are called outcomes. OBE contrasts with traditional education, which primarily focuses on the resources that are available to the student, which are called inputs. While OBE implementations often incorporate a host of many progressive pedagogical models and ideas, such as reform mathematics, block scheduling, project-based learning and whole language reading, OBE in itself does not specify or require any particular style of teaching or learning. Instead...

David Wallace

12:32 AM

@Jez If there are only two alternatives, you might.

Joseph Weissman

It's a weird boogeyman.

Jez

@DavidWallace I can assure you that I wouldn't, and I don't see why any sane person would

Cerberus

@JosephWeissman Yes, I think I strongly deplore this current trend.

Joseph Weissman

@Cerberus "Agile education" might be one way to put it

Cerberus

We have had some waves if it here, and it is terrible, according to nearly all teachers and other people in the field.

Jez

12:35 AM

@Cerberus that would be funny if people didn't vote for them

and therefore vote for this platform

Cerberus

@JosephWeissman As in evading learning actual stuff by students?

Joseph Weissman

@Cerberus buzzword-based educational development

But yes, that too, of course :D

Cerberus

@Jez In this case, I am Machiavelli.

@JosephWeissman Haha, yes! Well said.

The sad thing about new teaching is that some of the stuff can be great, at least in theory.

But in practice...

A big part of the problem is the current trend, as I see it, of trying to measure the immeasurable.

Which emphasises quantity and harms quality.

Dixi.

Jez

whereas the GOP want to go back to teaching conformity

Cerberus

They should just eat a sock and choke on it.

Jez

12:39 AM

i haven't disagreed with the views of people as much as I do with the current GOP's for a long time

they really piss me off in so many ways

virtually everything they stand for is utterly contemptible bullshit

Cerberus

How about when the Tea Party was all over the news?

Joseph Weissman

How about when they were all up in the congress preventing the people's business from being done?

The reactionary madness that has overtaken the States is a bit unnerving

Jez

you can just picture a bunch of old white mean-spirited assholes writing that document.

Cerberus

@JosephWeissman What did they do exactly?

Jez

dreaming of the days when the negro was kept down

Cerberus

12:43 AM

@JosephWeissman Economic crises usually cause reactionary shifts.

Joseph Weissman

The right has turned itself into a bulwark against almost any progressive legislation

Jez

or any existing legislation that could be viewed by a racist prick as progressive

Cerberus

A ripple.

In the river of history, it will soon be.

Jez

as in, unimportant?

Joseph Weissman

Sure, from a world-historical perspective

Jez

12:46 AM

that remains to be seen

they could ruin the environment, help start a nuclear war, pressure other countries into locking people up for cannabis or copyright infringement, etc

Cerberus

Ruin the environment, not on their own.

Start a nuclear war, unlikely.

Cannabis, many countries have already been doing that for decades.

Jez

not on their own? by virtue of the US not taking action, it encourages others not to

so I'd say pretty much yes on their own, with their influence

Cerberus

Copyright, yes, but that will eventually be overturned again.

Jez

@Cerberus because of dumb US pressure

Cerberus

China is worse.

Jez

12:48 AM

worse about what?

Joseph Weissman

Right, Jez. They're bad but they're not fascists/authoritarian.

Yet, or openly, anyway.

Cerberus

@Jez Not nearly only the US. France has been pressuring us for decades.

@Jez The environment.

Joseph Weissman

I really like Jon Stewart's point about being able to disagree without calling one another "Mao" and "Stalin"

Jez

@JosephWeissman really? fascism is the marriage of government and corporation. if they're not married to Koch Industries and Hollywood, I don't know who is

Cerberus

@JosephWeissman Agreed.

Jez

12:49 AM

@Cerberus really? oh well, fuck France too.

Cerberus

@Jez Haha. And look at your own government...

Jez

I'd say our government takes its drugs policy from the US

Cerberus

Nevertheless, I think the trend towards legalizing cannabis will slowly continue to advance.

Jez

that's why my biggest hope of legalizing it here is for the US to do so first

Cerberus

It is already semi-tolerated in many American states.

Jez

12:50 AM

then even our incredibly stupid politicians will just copy the US and legalize it

@Cerberus yeah, and the Obama admin crackdown on it

Cerberus

Crackdown on cannabis?

Joseph Weissman

Okay, for some reason I'm really hungry now.

Cerberus

In any case, you guys need to switch to proportional representation.

Joseph Weissman

Back in a bit.

Jez

@Cerberus indeed. raids on dispensaries

Joseph Weissman

12:52 AM

@Cerberus and that.

Cerberus

@JosephWeissman You mean...

@JosephWeissman Right, we've already discussed this.

Jez

@Cerberus lol, yeah. and the UK public voted no to AV.

Cerberus

@Jez Well, Obama is a fairly big disappointment.

AV?

Jez

no kidding

Cerberus

Alien Vaporization?

How odd.

Jez

12:54 AM

alternative vote. a small (but nevertheless substantive) improvement to our electoral system

Cerberus

Oh, yes.

I read about that.

Was there really a referendum?

And why did they vote against it?

Jez

yes, and i have No Frigging Clue.

but it has made me believe that referendums are a waste of time and a terrible idea

people seem to vote based on how much they currently like the politicians in favour

Cerberus

Yes.

Jez

they should have just implemented AV and said Fuck You

David Wallace

Where I come from, people vote based on whichever side sinks more money into advertising their position.

Cerberus

12:56 AM

The problem is just that people are stupid, and politicians are people, alas.

@DavidWallace Is that really so? How come people are convinced by advertisements?

I mean, they know they are advertisements, don't they?

Jez

@Cerberus hah, take a look at how money buys a US election. through advertising.

David Wallace

@Cerberus The problem is just that people are stupid.

Jez

indeed.

Cerberus

I don't know, how much of a difference does advertising really make in US elections?

@DavidWallace But that stupid?

Jez

it's incredible that any American still looks at the myriad negative political ads on TV and thinks anything other than "yet another load of crap with probably little-to-no veracity"

Cerberus

12:58 AM

"Hello, vote for Mr X, because he is Good, and I am a company that has some financial interest in his candidature. Ta!"

Jez

instead, many view it as some kind of sport. whoever can get the most nasty ads wins their vote

Cerberus

I would like to see scientific evidence of how much of a difference such advertising really makes.

Jez

@Cerberus TYT talked about some study a while back where 90% of the time, the candidate with the most money won.

Cerberus

People who work in advertising are notoriously stupid, no offence. Recently it was all over the news that "people walk away or change the channel during commercials". Shocking!

Jez

something like that.

Cerberus

1:00 AM

TYT?

Jez

the young turks

Cerberus

I am sceptical.

Ah.

I think the main proven function of advertising is brand awareness.

As to the rest...

Jez

i'm at a loss to explain why many Americans see lots of TV ads as justification to change their vote, but then I'm at a loss to explain why they believe a lot of things.

more guns are always good, religion is good, abortion is bad, drugs are bad...

Cerberus

I still doubt whether it has that much influence.

Advertising people like to make you think that, like a mystical caste of priests, because they have nothing else.

cpx

Hi @JasperLoy. Is that your picture?

user19161

1:14 AM

@cpx No, that is Taylor Lautner as it says in my profile.

cpx

Ah, I see.

Good.

user19161

1:30 AM

@cpx Sometimes I use Justin Bieber pics instead.

cpx

I like his hairdo.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus You think advertising has no effect? Its effects can be measured

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Is that what I said?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

"I doubt it has that much influence. Advertising people like to make you think that, like a mystical caste of priests"

Is that not what you said

Cerberus

"No effect"?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

1:39 AM

Well, if they are a mystical caste of priests, surely the effects of advertising must be on par with rain dances, virgin sacrifice, and prayer.

When in reality the effects of advertising are real, strong, and well-understood

Cerberus

When I say "that bar was so boring, it was like a deserted island", do you think I mean to say that there were exactly zero people in the bar?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

In fact I'm at a lost to explain why @Jez doesn't understand how advertising works, to the point that he can't understand political advertising and its effects on voters.

@Cerberus When you say "I doubt it has much influence" and I say "you think it has no effect", did you think I meant absolutely zero? Or "little or no"?

Cerberus

Are you sure you are interpreting him correctly? Are you applying the principle of charity?

@MrShinyandNew安宇 All right, fair enough; but even that is too strong. I said "I doubt whether", not "I don't believe that"; and I said "that much influence", not "much influence".

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Well, fine. I will admit that I didn't read the transcript, but having just read part of it the picture doesn't improve :) "people in advertising are stupid", etc.

Cerberus

It is just my general impression. Based also on any person I have ever spoken to of that "profession".

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

1:49 AM

Well, let's just say that advertising works. For example, the company I work for advertises on other websites, such as Google. We have people who analyze the cost/benefit of the ads and change the ads and where we advertise in order to maximize the return. There is a definite cost/benefit analysis that shows their effectiveness.

And we are a small-time company. Other companies do this way, way more.

Cerberus

How is it tested? A double-blind test is impossible...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus What do you mean? why would a test need to be double-blind?

Cerberus

At least double, then.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Well, everything is automated. We don't need blinding because the systems are not intelligent or motivated to look for certain outcomes

Let's say we want to show two ads and see which convert better. Show the ads to two sets of people, see which group of people has more signups. The signups are unequivocal success/failure tests and the assignment of the users to one group or another is random. It's very similar to a clinical trial.

There are other strategies that also work. We don't need blinding.

Or rather, we don't need to do anything special to get blinding: the systems are already blind.

however you want to look at it.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 This seems fairly blind.

So how many sign-ups do you normally get in a week? How many less do you get if you substitute the worse advertisement for the better, as a percentage of your normal weekly sign-ups?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

1:56 AM

Granted, with something like TV ads it's harder to measure the performance. But over time, using a variety of methods, you can do that. You can do surveys. You can monitor sales. You can poll people. etc.

Cerberus

Or, better, how does it affect your long-term revenue?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I don't have the numbers on hand. But I can assure you, this is something we definitely work on all the time.

Cerberus

I'm interested in "how much".

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I'm also sceptical of polls. I used to take some internet polls for major brands, and they were ridiculous.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Hm, at least 60% of our revenue comes directly from ads or some kind of advertising such as a referral.

Mitch

@jez : "i'm at a loss to explain why many Americans see lots of TV ads as justification to change their vote, but then I'm at a loss to explain why they believe a lot of things." are you American? (or may I be so bold as to ask what your nationality is)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

1:59 AM

@Mitch Jez is from the UK

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 How have you measured that? How can you tell whether a person clicking through an advertisement was mainly motivated to buy by the advertisement, or whether it was just one of the factors?

And what kind of advertisements do you use, and where?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Well, it's not fool-proof, but when someone clicks on an ad and follows through with a signup, it's a pretty strong indication that the ad had something to do with it.

@Cerberus Various ads on the internet. Pretty much nothing in meat-space.

Cerberus

Meat-space?

Is that like sub-space, but meatier?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus meat space is where the meat is.

you haven't heard of meat-space?

Cerberus

Apparently not.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

2:03 AM

it's the opposite of cyberspace

Ah.

I am meatspace.

Show it!

...meat, in normal space.

Cerberus

Oh, that.

Joseph Weissman

2:05 AM

Real life

Real life is an actual event or life lived by real people, contrasted to that lived by fiction or fantasy characters, or real people interacting on the Internet. Usage online and in fiction On the Internet, "real life" refers to life in the real world. It generally references life or consensus reality, in contrast to an environment seen as fiction or fantasy, such as virtual reality, lifelike experience, dreams, novels, or movies. Online, the acronym "IRL" stands for "in real life", with the meaning "not on the Internet". When used to distinguish from fictional worlds or universes aga...

You know, that thing.

Cerberus

Huh?

Is that like Second Life?

Or like WoWoW?

Do you know WoWoW?

►

It's awesome.

Joseph Weissman

Briliant.

Putting you in the shoes of someone putting themselves in the shoes of an elf.

Cerberus

Hehe.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus world of warcraft of warcraft?

Joseph Weissman

world of world of warcraft

craft

your character can do anything that a real person playing warcraft can do

there's no limit

Cerberus

2:10 AM

@MrShinyandNew安宇 You didn't know it? Then watch the video.

Joseph Weissman

It might merit a quick view.

Cerberus

@JosephWeissman Almost like zombo.com !

Another one of my favourites. Reg showed it to me a long time ago.

Joseph Weissman

YOU CAN DO ANYTHING. ANYTHING AT ALL.

THE ONLY LIMIT IS YOURSELF.

Welcome to Zombo.com.

Robusto

Real Life (1979 film)

Real Life is an American comedy film released in 1979. The first feature directed by Albert Brooks, who also co-authored the screenplay, it is a spoof of the 1973 reality television program An American Family and portrays a documentary filmmaker named Albert Brooks who attempts to live with and film a dysfunctional family for one full year. Charles Grodin co-stars as the family's patriarch who consents to permit cameras in his Arizona home. Real-life producer Jennings Lang also has an acting role in Real Life. Plot Ordinary family man Warren Yeager and his wife Jeannette are delighted ...

Joseph Weissman

Also amazing.

Cerberus

2:13 AM

Glad to have been of help.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I actually played a video game where I had to make the guy in the game play a videogame

It was one of the space-quest games

Joseph Weissman

Awesome!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I miss those old games. I should see if I can get them working in emulation

Cerberus

Nice.

You know what I don't understand?

If An American Family was broadcast in the seventies, why was Big Brother so controversial in the aughties?

Robusto

@Cerberus Yes. He knows everything you don't understand.

3

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

2:19 AM

@Cerberus wait, let me go to the washroom first, I think this might take a while

Cerberus

Well, well.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Big Brother was controversial?

Cerberus

It was here? And it was purchased all over the world, so I got the impression that it was somehow novel in North America as well.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Well, I don't know precisely how controversial it was. Maybe a controversy in a teapot?

Cerberus

So, if it wasn't, then why was/is it at all popular?

It doesn't seem novel at all.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

2:22 AM

Big Brother wasn't even that novel, there was a show on MTV for years called "The Real World" that had a similar premise, minus the game-show aspects

Cerberus

I remember that.

It was indeed similar.

So what was all the fuss about with BB?

Why did/do so many people watch it?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Well, for one thing, there wasn't much else on tv at the time. "Reality" TV was the big fad. Lots of people loudly professed their distaste for the genre. And yet lots of people watched it, maybe out of boredom, or morbid curiosity, who knows

Also the game-show aspects make the show more interesting than a shitty documentary about dumb people.

I mean, Survivor, The Amazing Race, Big Brother, these are all game-shows

just like Wheel of Fortune, only, the game lasts a whole season

Also game shows: The Bachelor, The Bachelorette, American Idol, etc.

They have way more in common with game shows than with documentaries or reality.

So I guess that's probably it.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 But why should RTV have been the big fad, when it had existed since the seventies?

@MrShinyandNew安宇 So this must be it, then?

Even though the game aspect is not at all interesting in any way...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Well, "had existed", I mean, it's not like there were lots of shows of this format on tv.

Cerberus

The Real World.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

2:28 AM

When shows like this appeared, they were maybe not new inventions, but they were relatively new to prime-time tv and there wasn't much out there that was the same.

@Cerberus well, yes. but it wasn't on prime-time and it wasn't the same as Survivor or Idol or most of the other shows.

Cerberus

Why wasn't it on prime time?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

It was similar to Big Brother. But then lots of shows are similar to other shows. Consider cop shows. How many of those have there been? Yet they still make new ones. It's not like they say "Nothing else should ever be said again about cops on TV, let's do something different". They say "People like cop shows. How about a cop show where the main cop is also a straight stripper at a gay bar on weekends, and his wife is having an affair with a zombie"

@Cerberus I don't know. Actually it might have been. but MTV is not the biggest broadcaster out there. Lots of people don't even get MTV.

Cerberus

I sense a void in your explanation.

It seems we can only explain it by some combination of Zeitgeist and the gaming aspect.

Joseph Weissman

Reality TV is our (cultural) bad conscience. ("...this instinct for freedom pushed back and repressed, incarcerated within and finally able to discharge and vent itself only on itself: that, and that alone, is what the bad conscience is in its beginnings...")

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus well, how else do fads of any kind form?

Nummer 28

Nummer 28 was a Dutch reality soap, directed by Joost Tholens and produced by Today TV, shown as part of the youth show "1-4-U" of public broadcaster KRO in 1991. The name of the show was directly derived from the number of the house in that street (Number 28). The show ran only for one season. For this show, seven strangers (all starting students) were put together in a student house in Amsterdam, and their lives were followed for several months. Unlike later versions of the concept, no game-aspects were included in the show, and the inhabitants of the house were also not isolated from th...

Cerberus

2:34 AM

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I am just a bit surprised that apparently the genre was popular so long ago, and yet it seemed somehow "novel" in the 90s and became another fad.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I don't know if the genre was "popular" so long ago. Yes, there had been successes in the field, but starting around 2000 there was an explosion in the number of shows of this kind that were produced.

Joseph Weissman

It's more than a question of style, though -- it's entirely fake television, in a much deeper and weirder way than fiction is fake. It's fiction in the guise of the truth.

A psychoanalytic paradox.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I was 8 then.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

This could be caused by network executives just playing it safe and copying what has worked elsewhere.

@JosephWeissman Yeah, the question is more about "why now" rather than "what is it"

Cerberus

@JosephWeissman Yes, absolutely. Because many people probably believe that more aspects of it are true than there are in fact.

Joseph Weissman

2:37 AM

@MrShinyandNew sorry, not trying to take us on the high seas again :)

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 And the question is why, when it was an old genre.

@JosephWeissman What high seas have you been on?

Joseph Weissman

@Cerberus oh, you

Cerberus

No, you.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Sure, but so what? For a period of time there were like 200 different "Law and Order" shows on TV, along with 5,403 "CSI" shows etc. Just about every timeslot had one or two cop shows playing on a major network.

But cop shows have been around since forever

Cerberus

You don't find that interesting? All right.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

2:39 AM

Their popularity waxes and wanes. And since the selection of TV material is limited, people watch what's there

Cerberus

It's just that the invasiveness of BB was a scandal here. It was discussed in newspapers. I remember. And that while we had this "Nummer 28" already, which was also very invasive.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Well, I suppose if you want to broaden the question to "how do fads work, period", then I guess it's interesting. "Reality TV" as a fad is not, to me, remarkable... it's a fad, like hip hop music is a fad. When I was a kid, Alternative Rock was the thing. Now it's hip hop. oh well.

Cerberus

Perhaps the fact that people were supposed to try to get the other people to quit added to the immorality of the programme?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Yeah... I remember it being discuss. I don't remember it being all that controversial. more like the media was trying to be sensational about it.

Cerberus

That combined with the invasion of privacy, which was already to some degree considered immoral.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I remember discussing it and being appalled.

We considered the question whether it ought to be outlawed.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

2:42 AM

I don't remember people being all that incensed about its immorality here.

Cerberus

Of course we didn't think that it ought to be.

People hurting themselves and all.

But still.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus appalled that people would volunteer? or appalled that people would watch? or what

Cerberus

Everything.

The whole concept, setting people up against each other while destroying their privacy.

Of course it was then a secret, at least in 1999 (the first season), that they all got € 500 a day anyway.

Which makes it less immoral and therefore less controversial and less interesting to the average viewer.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I still don't really see how the concept is immoral. These people were at least volunteers; as long as they knew what they were getting into, and the show's producers weren't resorting to tactics such as forcible confinement, how could it really be immoral?

Cerberus

Making people disgrace and potentially harm themselves and each other?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

2:47 AM

"Making" them?

Cerberus

Enticing them with money.

Like offering a poor girl money for unpleasant sex.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I dunno.... I guess I'm not that familiar with what goes on on the show?

Cerberus

Nothing that would shock you.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Yeah, I dunno. I suppose to some degree it could be considered immoral to take a regular person, then, say, yell at them until they break down and start crying, put that on TV, and then pay them $100, even if they volunteered. But I'm not really sure to what degree.

Cerberus

Agreed.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

2:54 AM

I certainly don't consider it immoral for them to be living in a house full of cameras, whether those cameras show lots of private details or only a little. They did volunteer, after all.

Just like it's not immoral for someone to pose in playboy. Yeah, you'll regret that later when you run for office, but too bad.

Cerberus

What things can volunteering moralize?

@MrShinyandNew安宇 *to make someone pose

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus No, "to pose", pose is a verb

Cerberus

?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Well, nobody "makes" anyone pose in playboy. Or rather, coercing someone to do that would be wrong. But if you want to pose, go ahead

Cerberus

Again, making as in enticing.