English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

6:00 PM

Minor crack in a disc?

Vitaly

in a vertebra

Cerberus

Oh...is that nothing to worry about?

So what are you supposed to do: wait it out?

Vitaly

pretty much

Cerberus

OK.

How do you feel?

Vitaly

Confused. Why is Code2000 refusing to display those characters?

Cerberus

6:04 PM

Code2000 never displayed all characters for me.

This is not a first.

wazu.jp/gallery/Fonts_Glagolitic.html

The third font works for me.

Vitaly

And why can't my browsers hook Quivira up for those characters?

JSBᾶngs

i installed both Code2000 and the one that Cerb just linked, but it still doesn't display for me

it displays fine on my ubuntu laptop at home (where i originally made the change)

@Vitaly gorgeous

And yet…

6:07 PM

i find it amusing that the windows font dialog in the romanian locale displays a translation of "the quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog", completely missing the point of the sentence

@Vitaly maybe it's something about how the font gets displayed on web pages?

Vitaly

I can't find Glagolithic in my Opera settings where you choose what fonts should be used when something is not displayed correctly

No idea if anything like that setting exists in Chrome

Apparently neither Opera nor Chrome even know that it's Glagolithic

Cerberus

@JSBᾶngs Huh weird? And you have restarted your browser and all?

FF searches through fonts automatically, I believe.

JSBᾶngs

@Vitaly googling turned up this, but it doesn't help

Cerberus

Have you tried FF?

JSBᾶngs

i don't have ff installed (and dislike it, anyway)

Vitaly

6:13 PM

same here

JSBᾶngs

the quivira glagolitic is gorgeous, but the Latin is awful. unreadable.

font-family: Verdana,Arial,sans-serif;

so i'm guessing this overrides the local font settings, and that (for whatever reason) the browsers won't go looking through other fonts for the characters

user19161

I see everyone is having problems displaying jsb's name!

JSBᾶngs

next time i'll have to pick something with better font support

user19161

You'll need to wait 30 days!

JSBᾶngs

alas...

user19161

6:18 PM

Also I am now the black square.

Vitaly

@JSBᾶngs alanwood.net/unicode/glagolitic.html no overriding there but the browsers still won't go looking for them

JSBᾶngs

@Vitaly nothing but squares. i don't get it.

Vitaly

WTF? Surely there's been enough time for browser vendors to implement some Glagolitic support (it was added in Unicode 4.1 in 2005)

JSBᾶngs

it's font support more than browser support, no? i mean, it's not like glagolitic requires special rendering logic

and in any case, font rendering logic is deferred to the OS by pretty much all modern browsers

maybe except for Safari on Windows (cuz apple's gotta be special and show off their rendering engine)

Vitaly

haha

but why would it work for Cerb in FF then?

Cerberus

6:27 PM

Cuz I'm mythic.

Epic.

Monstrous.

user19161

Debian does not seem to have code2000 in its repos.

Cerberus

Fantastic.

user19161

Or maybe it is under some obscure name I cannot find.

JSBᾶngs

well i know that FF does have support for looking up missing chars in other fonts

i thought the other browsers also did that now, but i could be wrong

Cerberus

Exactly.

user19161

6:29 PM

I take my hats off Ubuntu for getting it right since that's where the font was changed.

JSBᾶngs

this could be a reason to look at FF again

Cerberus

Why do you dislike it?

Vitaly

@JSBᾶngs i know for a fact that opera and chrome support looking up missing chars in other fonts, i tested it right here with Akkadian cuneiform and so on; they fail to do it with Glagolitic for some reason

user19161

I am using FF too, sort of.

JSBᾶngs

@Vitaly paste an example?

Cerberus

6:30 PM

Current versions appear to be as fast as Chrome.

user19161

I am sick of google wanting to save everything and making it so hard to delete anything.

Vitaly

@JSBᾶngs ]𒆭𒆠

user19161

OK so what is jsb's name supposed to look like now?

Vitaly

That's what it looks like for me in this chat (not JSB's name, the Akkadian cuneiform stuff above)

user19161

@Vitaly OMG, no wonder it cannot be displayed!

Cerberus

6:33 PM

@Vitaly Huh I can't see this!

JSBᾶngs

@Vitaly yeah, i see boxes

Cerberus

I too!

JSBᾶngs

28 mins ago, by Vitaly

those are my boxen

user19161

@JSBᾶngs This is too exotic as well!

user19161

I think people who come to ELU will check if this is aliens.stackexchange.com.

Cerberus

6:35 PM

Ah I see it now.

JSBᾶngs

conclusion: font rendering, and especially unicode, is governed by alien logics from the cold depths of time, not to be understood by mortal men

3

Cerberus

I forgot to install my Cuneiform and Egyptian fonts.

No, I just forgot.

I restored a clone not long ago, that's why.

user19161

@Cerberus You and your clones!

Cerberus

International Phonetic Alphabet

The International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)"The acronym 'IPA' strictly refers [...] to the 'International Phonetic Association'. But it is now such a common practice to use the acronym also to refer to the alphabet itself (from the phrase 'International Phonetic Alphabet') that resistance seems pedantic. Context usually serves to disambiguate the two usages." (Laver 1994:561) is an alphabetic system of phonetic notation based primarily on the Latin alphabet. It was devised by the International Phonetic Association as a standardized representation of the sounds of spoken language. The IP...

Can you see these?

JSBᾶngs

yes. IPA is small potatoes

Cerberus

6:36 PM

It links to the consonants.

Even the rarer ones?

user19161

@Cerberus Yes.

Cerberus

Good.

JSBᾶngs

actually, let me take that back. i do see a lot of squares there, but in weird places

user19161

@Cerberus Seems to be not too clear.

JSBᾶngs

i see no squares in the IPA chart itself

but i do see squares in the text

Cerberus

6:38 PM

Perhaps you don't realize that you're missing diacritics.

They should appear as boxes after the letter.

user19161

Yeah we don't know what we are missing until we miss it.

Cerberus

@WillHunting What do you mean?

Carlo_R.

Please, is there somebody who can vote to reopen my question?

user19161

@Cerberus I mean the screenshot is very clear but what is rendered in my browser is not, so not a very satisfactory font.

user19161

@Carlo_R I think it is too vague.

user19161

6:41 PM

What do you mean by hopes, dreams and cynicism?

Cerberus

@WillHunting Hmm OK. Well, Arial isn't very clear either, but I don't know of a font that is always clear and easy on the eyes.

user19161

Well, I give up on trying to see all the fonts on ELU.

user19161

I don't need extra fonts anywhere else on earth.

Mahnax

Hi guys.

Cerberus

◌˞ ɚ ɝ Rhotacized

[ʔ͡t] glottal closure

Can y'all see these?

Carlo_R.

6:42 PM

I will try to improve the question. Thanks.

Vitaly

Mar 24 at 5:40, by Vitaly

Cerberus

Mahnax

@Cerberus I'm on IE. I can, actually.

Cerberus

@Vitaly Oh God, what was this again?

Vitaly

Cerberus

6:43 PM

@Mahnax On IE even? Nice.

user19161

@Vitaly That is what I see too.

Cerberus

@Vitaly Hmm what font is this?

Mahnax

@Cerberus Yeah, but the ping count is an ugly square.

Vitaly

Feb 26 at 15:26, by Vitaly

via http://dotsies.org/

Mahnax

I'm downloading Chrome as we speak.

Vitaly

6:44 PM

@Cerberus IDK.

Cerberus

You probably won't know. I don't know mine either.

@Mahnax A square!?

Odd.

Never seen that.

Mahnax

@Cerberus Yes.

Ping me and I will take a screen shot.

@Mahnax

Nah, that doesn't work.

Cerberus

@Vitaly Oh God, that again. You're actually reading all your text like this? How do you like it?

@Mahnax Boo.

JSBᾶngs

@Cerberus i don't believe he's reading all of his text like this. OTOH it would be an interesting experiment to try

Cerberus

@JSBᾶngs Don't underestimate Vit...

Mahnax

6:48 PM

Vitaly

@Cerberus I read it like that for a while, but it's messing up some websites so I've turned it off (see the screenshot above where you can discern “Rh” and “glot”)

Cerberus

@Mahnax Haha...hey, that doesn't look so bad.

user19161

@Cerberus "Vit" sounds like "Kit", I just realized.

Mahnax

@Cerberus It's terrible!

I can't use this keyboard.

Blah.

Cerberus

@Vitaly Ah OK. And did it increase your reading speed?

@Mahnax Apple boy, Apple boy!

Vitaly

6:48 PM

@Cerberus Not really. Same speed as with usual Latin fonts. But it was cool.

Mahnax

@Cerberus It's mostly the the transition from laptop to desktop.

Cerberus

Heh OK.

@Mahnax No you're it.

Mahnax

@Cerberus Shh.

I keep hitting enter instead of '.

JSBᾶngs

@Vitaly it seems that it would have a similar advantage/drawback profile to using hangul

Mahnax

My Chrome install failed!

What the smurf!?

Cerberus

6:50 PM

@Mahnax Larger keyboard = good!

user19161

@Mahnax What happened?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

> You have been on a raft with a chicken for 24 hours 3 minutes 22 seconds.

JSBᾶngs

@Vitaly since both writing systems consist of complex glyphs which can theoretically be decomposed into atomic parts, but which fluent readers recognize wholistically

Mahnax

@WillHunting It just said that it failed.

user19161

@MrShinyandNew安宇 You should save electricity.

Mahnax

6:51 PM

@Cerberus This keyboard is actually smaller.

user19161

@Mahnax No reason given? Then try installing again.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@WillHunting How? I have to leave that computer on all the time so that I can access it remotely

Mahnax

@MrShinyandNew安宇 But you haven't been listening for all that time.

@WillHunting I am.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mahnax true. I left work yesterday and forgot to close the tab.

it's closed now.

user19161

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Oh I thought you left it on just to break the chicken record.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

6:52 PM

@WillHunting The chicken record is easy to "break".

> You have been on a raft with a chicken for 34 hours 31 minutes 23 seconds.

there

Mahnax

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Oh, haha.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

> You have been on a raft with a chicken for over 9000 hours 7 minutes almost 7 seconds.

JSBᾶngs

@MrShinyandNew安宇 i was just about to say that

Mahnax

> You have been on a chicken with a raft for 67789 hours 988 minutes and -234^5 seconds.

Cerberus

@JSBᾶngs True: we recognize word shapes. But fewer superfluous curves might theoretically be more efficient.

@Mahnax Then you're doing something wrong!

JSBᾶngs

6:54 PM

> You have been on a raft with a chicken for longer than ANYBODY, EVER. YOU WIN. Now please leave the chicken alone.

Mahnax

@Cerberus It's too cramped!

Save me!

I would use my Precious, but I probably won't have internet access.

Cerberus

saves you

Mahnax

Thanks!

Cerberus

The Precious is of the Fiery Eye, it's evil.

It seeks to find you and in white plastic bind you.

Mahnax

Polished aluminum, actually.

And I have internet!

I am using the Precious!

Oh, I went to school, @Cerb.

Cerberus

6:58 PM

Oh, bummer.

Mahnax

I needed my Bio books for studying this weekend.

There aren't many people here.

Cerberus

Poor you.

Mahnax

Ehh, lunchtime was fun.

Went to the mall with some friends.

Cerberus

Oh good.

From the advanced something class?

Mahnax

Yeah.

Cerberus

7:05 PM

Cool.

What did you talk about?

Mahnax

We played Monopoly in French class, too.

Cerberus

Oh, Parisian streets?

Mahnax

Yeah.

Cerberus

Les Champs Elysées?

Mahnax

The only one I remember is Avenue Foch.

And Les Champs Elysées.

Rob

7:06 PM

@Cerberus Which of these is more idiomatically correct: "I hope you all the best and a full recovery." or "I wish you all the best and a full recovery."?

Mahnax

jsfiddle.net/maniator/K3wCM/embedded/result

Cerberus

Pronounced /'tʃæmps i'laizɪs/?

@Rob The second one.

The first one is not correct.

You can't hope someone something.

@Mahnax Huh what's this?

Rob

@Cerberus Even if that something is better health?

Mahnax

@Cerberus Baseball!

Courtesy of Neal.

Neal, New York, NY

101 2

Cerberus

@Rob Yes.

Rob

7:10 PM

@Cerberus I don't understand why.

Cerberus

@Rob Well, there isn't really a reason. Each verb has different restrictions.

Mahnax

@Rob You just can't use hope like that.

Cerberus

You can say I hope (that) you will recover.

Rob

What is the difference between a "hope" and a"wish"?

Cerberus

Usually you don't use an article with hope.

It is a more general word.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

7:13 PM

@Cerberus You do if it's a noun

Cerberus

You can say I have hope.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Usually not.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

If people can have "hopes and dreams" then they can have "a hope"

Cerberus

It is typically uncountable, though of course you can make it countable. But then you would usually use the, not a: the hope that he would return was absent in her mind.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

But getting back to Rob's first question, @Rob I agree with @Cerb and @Mahnax, you can wish someone something but you can't hope someone something. You need some other construction after "hope".

Cerberus

Wish is typically countable: *I have wish is impossible, but I have a wish is typical.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

7:16 PM

@Cerberus either way. Rob's question was about verbs.

Cerberus

4 mins ago, by Rob

What is the difference between a "hope" and a"wish"?

Nouns.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

The original question.

Cerberus

He asked this. I was answering it.

New question > older question.

Rob

I tried to simplify my question by talking about the nouns

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Rob: conceptually "hope" and "wish" are very similar and often have nearly identical meanings. However, as you can see, grammatically they are used differently.

Cerberus

7:18 PM

If I had to describe the general difference in meaning between the two, I would say a wish is more active: it is more like an act of the will. Hope is more like an emotion that occurs involuntarily.

Rob

This helps me use them as verbs

Cerberus

This only explains some of the differences in the way the words can be used, not nearly all.

@Rob In your original examples, you should just use the verb hope with a that clause and you'll be fine.

Rob

Is this approach good in general?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Rob When you out and state that you hope for something to happen or wish some consequence on someone, they become synonyms in my mind.

Cerberus

@Rob Probably not for determining which constructions are possible.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Yes, because then the voluntary aspect is added by the speech act itself.

Rob

7:21 PM

What is the best general approach?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Rob It helps when you want to determine which synonym to pick from a list. But it's not always accurate.

@Rob There is no best approach aside from being born in an English-speaking country.

Rob

I find nouns easier to understand.

Cerberus

@Rob Just memorize a few basic constructions. I wish you good health (wish + person + thing). I wish (that) you were here (wish + that[optional] + past subjunctive).

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Rob I suspect they are.

Rob

They are more concrete.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

7:23 PM

I noticed with my children that they started saying noun words long before they ever used a verb.

Cerberus

I hope (that) you will recover soon (hope + that[optional] + regular tenses).

I think these are the main uses for the verbs.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus What about "I wish you well", "I wish you good fortune", "I wish you happy birthday"

oh you already covered that under "wish person thing" but what is "thing"

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 They are of the same type as the first construction, though well is idiomatic.

A thing is a non-person.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I wish you car

Cerberus

"A car".

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

7:26 PM

hm

Cerberus

It is possible, though unlikely.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I suppose.

Rob

"I hope you all the best and a full recovery." or "I wish you all the best and a full recovery."?

Cerberus

You would usually wish someone an abstract thing.

JSBᾶngs

@Rob the latter

Cerberus

7:27 PM

@Rob Which of the two did you see among the constructions I gave?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Rob you can't "hope" a thing.

Rob

I need a definition.

Cerberus

20 mins ago, by Cerberus

You can't hope someone something.

The best I can give you is example constructions: if you stick with those, you will be OK.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JSB @Cerberus what about * I hope for you all the best

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Sounds a bit awkward to me.

I'd make that an asterisk.

Especially because hope for usually has something as its object.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

7:29 PM

It sounds a bit awkward to me too but not exactly wrong

Cerberus

She hoped for a car.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Would you ever say it?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I don't think so. But I can't be sure.

Maybe if I really wanted to use the words "hope" and "all the best" for some reason

Cerberus

I might use hope for with a that clause.

I hope for you that she will recover.

Sounds a bit colloquial perhaps.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus sure, that's different though.

Cerberus

Yes.

I can't bring myself to accept your example, hehe.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

7:32 PM

@Cerberus yeah me neither.

Vitaly

google.com/trends/correlate/…

Cerberus

You could say she hoped for her mother to come visit her.

Rob

I hope for you both all the best.

Thank you.

;-)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Rob No, we just finished agreeing that this construction is awkward

It should be wish

wish + someone (you both) + something (all the best)

Vitaly

Rob

7:36 PM

@Cerberus Is this question worth posting?

Vitaly

for some reason, that spike for Chinese in 2008 correlates with the Georgian war

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Dragging to zoom does not work. Bug report!

Cerberus

@Rob Depends on what you would ask exactly?

@RegDwightѬſ道 Works for me.

It works just like the rep graph on SE.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Cerberus right! Now it does for me as well. I forgot to press Ю while holding down Ъ.

Cerberus

Haha...

Stupid SE is so slow that it miscatches my shift.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

7:38 PM

As long as it catches your drift...

Cerberus

Not that either, alas.

Rob

@MrShinyandNew安宇 @Cerberus So you wish someone something but you only hope for something?

Cerberus

@Vit: I can't seem to use it for something useful, somehow.

I either get lots of synonyms, or just obvious things.

Vitaly

WTF? WHY?

@Cerberus Neither do I. But it's fun.

Cerberus

@Vitaly I got that too for political parties.

Vitaly

7:42 PM

@Cerberus Well, explain that trend. I don't see an obvious reason.

Cerberus

Nor I.

Vitaly

But you said it was obvious. :P

JSBᾶngs

@Vitaly i'm guessing they get mentioned together in general religion-y articles or something

i have no idea why they both cycle up and down like that

Cerberus

@Vitaly Okay, not obvious.

JSBᾶngs

could be an artifact of the search algorithm

Cerberus

7:44 PM

Just nonsense.

At least I can't think of anything that would give such a pattern.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Rob You can hope for someone to do something. But you can't hope for someone something.

Vitaly

@JSBᾶngs does it roughly overlap with when the kids are out of school in the US?

JSBᾶngs

it does... roughly

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

actually... hm. can you hope for someone to do something? no. you can hope someone do something. argh I'm getting confused now.

Rob

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I think "hope" needs a reference word like "for" so it refers to something.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

7:48 PM

@Rob Not necessarily.

I hope you learned your lesson.

I wish I could think of all the ways to use "hope"

Rob

hope for, hope to

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I hope we can come to an agreement.

Rob

Me to.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

?I hope for peace in the middle east.

I hope to pass my driving test.

Anyway, @Rob: follow Cerb's three forms and you'll be ok. You can often use wish instead of hope in a sentence without significantly changing the meaning. So pick whichever fits better.

Vitaly

A Valency Dictionary of English @ Google Books

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…