English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

14:00

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Because I would like to be sure that it is illegal in Canada (because I am almost certain that it is legal here). Are you 100 % sure you didn't just think so because published put that stuff on their products?

Mitch

yes way

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Wrong, perhaps; but illegal?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I was a kid. I didn't read the legal code. But I have since then and know that it is, and was, illegal.

KitFox

@Mitch I am looking for it.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I still wonder how you came to know this.

KitFox

14:01

►

Cerberus

I'm trying to remember ever reading the law about this or remembering a statement from someone who did.

But I can't.

KitFox

Well, I knew if I copied someone's answers on a test, that was cheating.

Cerberus

Yes. But illegal?

KitFox

Well, if you take something without paying for it, that's stealing.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Wait, are you trying to frame this in terms of "Mr. S&N was brainwashed by the industry goons at an early age, because he didn't acquire all of his legal knowledge from primary sources"?

KitFox

14:02

I knew that when I was a kid.

Mitch

@KitFox nice

Cerberus

The law is probably different for children anyway.

KitFox

@Cerberus Yes. They punish your parents.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus: I have read the entire copyright act of canada a few times. Copying software is only permitted in certain narrow cases.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I don't know, it could be? Not many people actually know the law here except from what other people tell them.

user19161

14:03

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Like when someone points a gun at you and tells you to do it.

KitFox

And anyway, if you copy disks, you get something for free when you would otherwise pay for it. I knew that was stealing when I was a kid.

It's kind of a no-brainer.

Cerberus

@KitFox Yeah OK, that is possible. But I don't think that applies to anything that would normally be a crime.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus They never read about it in a fact-checked newspaper article? Or anything like that?

Mitch

but listening to the radio is free.

Cerberus

@KitFox That still doesn't mean it is illegal.

user19161

14:04

@KitFox Unless it's an Ubuntu CD of course, mwahaha.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@ClarkKent No, it might not be permitted. "Necessity" is only a defense against guilt, it doesn't make things "legal". That is an important distinction.

KitFox

@Cerberus Stealing is illegal here. Maybe not in your country though.

Mitch

and making a recording of the radio is easy, and frankly making a casssette recording is so easily done...(all I'm saying is that it's not obvious sometimes)

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 As I was saying, I'm trying to remember whether I actually read something definitive on this. I can't. And I bet that 99 % of the people here wouldn't know any of the less well-known laws.

user19161

People here jaywalk all the time.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

14:05

@Mitch agreed, and agreed, and it doesn't matter if it's obvious or not. The fact is I, personally, knew it was both illegal and (at least somewhat) wrong.

Cerberus

@KitFox Now you're mocking me.

I know for a fact that recording anything off television is legal in America.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I repeat: so what?

Mitch

@ClarkKent it's only illegal if there's a law...and it's enforced...and it's enforceable

Cerberus

The Betamax case(?), I think it is called.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus for personal use, yes. For giving that to someone else? less so. it depends.

KitFox

14:06

You can record a baseball game, but you can't legally watch it.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox No, you can watch it. But you can't give out copies to your friends.

user19161

@Mitch It is an offence, but you would be damned unlucky to get caught for it.

Mitch

@KitFox that's like having a sign that says 'it is illegal to read this sign'

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So @Cerberus: did you know? Copying a CD onto your MP3 player is ILLEGAL in Canada.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 So it is not so strange to ask whether you actually knew knew this, or just thought you knew, as a kid. I don't meam to imply that you were stupid or that you should known, because few people normally know these things. Loads of urban myths. Like the one about removing the label from a mattress?

KitFox

14:08

@MrShinyandNew安宇 You can't reproduce baseball broadcasts in whole or in part.

Cerberus

@KitFox I don't think that's true.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Is that really true? Can you prove it?

Because that is perfectly legal here.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox It falls under fair use. I'm fairly certain. No matter what disclaimers they add to the broadcasts, etc.

Cerberus

And when did that become illegal in Canada?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Is it an urban myth if it's true, though?

Cerberus

Uh, no.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

14:09

@Cerberus The copyright act used to have a section allowing personal copies. That section was repealed pending a re-write that never occurred.

KitFox

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I don't think they would ever be so stupid as to pursue it, but it's technically illegal.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox I don't think is is even technically illegal.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 And then does the law say anything now about making a personal copy?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Your Fair Use allowance is pretty strong.

Cerberus

Yeah it's better in America than here.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

14:10

@Cerberus The law is quite clear that only the allowed cases in the Act are permitted. anything else is not.

Cerberus

Are you sure?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

for fuck's sake I've read the god-damned law

Cerberus

And what does the law say exactly about copying digital music?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

And it has been widely discussed in the media

Cerberus

All right, then.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

14:12

@Cerberus Here you go: laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-42/index.html

KitFox

@MrShinyandNew安宇 That's true. It is something I appreciate.

Cerberus

If a reputable newspaper says that Canadian law is clear about not allowing your to copy a CD onto an mp3 player, then that's certain enough.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 All right then, if you're sure, I believe you.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus In fact it's a bit of a joke because just about every consumer electronics device that works with "media" violates the law (when used in the way it is intended to be used)

Cerberus

Of course that is possible.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

i.e. VCRs that can record. PVRs.

Cerberus

14:13

By the way, this still doesn't mean that it was illegal to copy a floppy with copyrighted material for a friend in 1993.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

PVRs are the biggest joke, actually: their one and only purpose is to make copying possible.

Cerberus

PVR?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus But I also know the law that was in place at the time

@Cerberus Personal Video Recorder

Cerberus

All right, and you are sure it was illegal then?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

A device that records TV... like a modern VCR

@Cerberus YES I'm sure

honestly I don't know why you are grilling me like this

Cerberus

14:15

I am more than prepared to believe you: but I needed you to be as specific as this (because most people think they know what's illegal while in fact they don't, even intelligent people). So now I believe you.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Mainly because it seemed absurd to me that that should be illegal in 1993, so I had a hard time believing it.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus if it's illegal now, why wouldn't it have been then?

Cerberus

Because much digital stuff wasn't regulated then, and the whole copyright thing was less strict.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 You even said yourself that this section about making personal copies existed?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus music only

and only in certain cases

Cerberus

Oh. Well, I think most countries allow personal copies of anything.

KitFox

sighs

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

14:20

AND media which is sold for the (potential) purposes of storing copied music, i.e. blank CDs, blank tapes, has a levy collected which is handed to copyright groups

Cerberus

Yes, we have that too.

KitFox

@MrShiny Why won't my datepicker validate my date range when it closes?

Cerberus

Which is usually coupled with allowing personal copies.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox javascript error?

KitFox

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Well, I suppose. But why?

I have been really nice and everything.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

14:21

@Cerberus yeah, it used to be, but then the gov't fucked it up, and all the new copyright legislation they tried to pass was really bad, and there were protests, but now they have a majority gov't, so who knows what will happen

KitFox

OK, that's not true. I lied. I have not been really nice.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox try running in firebug or chrome with dev tools (hit F12) or in modern IE with the developer tools

Cerberus

@KitFox I don't believe it! You're always nice.

Almost always.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Oh that sucks.

KitFox

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Oh, it's just be being stupid. Never mind.

Cerberus

So I had another question. How do you feel about the current price point for private use for most desktop software?

Like a file explorer the pro version of which costs € 20.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

14:24

Hm

I almost never ever pay for software

Cerberus

Is that a good price point if you want to maximise profit?

Or should you go lower (and sell more)?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus That will depend on many things

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Why not?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Because my desktop runs mostly Free software

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Yes, so it's going to have to be a big generalisation.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 OK mine too, but sometimes I use paid software that I pay for or pay for free software.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

14:25

@Cerberus It really depends on how useful the app is, what people are used to paying for productivity tools, what the competition is, and what people are used to paying for other non-comparable programs.

eg on the Android market, most software is in the $1-$20 range.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Yes, but you have no general ideas about this?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Doesn't matter what it is.

@Cerberus No, I'm too out of touch with the prices of software or what people are paying.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I was going to mention mobile applications. Huge profits are made there, because q seems to go up exponentially (or at least lots) when p goes below € 10 or € 5.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Personally I don't like paying anything at all, so even though, say, $5 is almost no money, I won't even try software that's $5 if I have to pay to try it.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 How about if you have used the free version for a while, and like it, but come to lust for a certain pro feature that costs $ 5?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

14:28

But some apps, like Photoshop, are hundreds of $. and Also, you asked in EUR, which betrays a key point: prices vary on a per-market basis. I couldn't even start to guess how much software costs in Europe.

Cerberus

Oh, well, I think "most" software (unweighted) is about the same price.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus If I use the free version, I might pay $5 for an upgrade. I would have to get past the mental block of "I'm buying this app, but not forever, because it might not be around later".

Cerberus

Otherwise I would order it through a VPN just to dis them.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Most other goods are not the same price, why would software be?

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Might not be around?

As in not updated?

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Because it is easier to compare prices, and because there are no cost differences like transportation.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

14:30

@Cerberus not updated, or an update I need isn't free, or the platform on which it runs might stop working, etc. Like, I have Corel Draw 9 but it doesn't work on anything past Windows 98. not 2k, not XP, etc. The fix is to buy a newer Corel Draw. That annoys me a lot.

Cerberus

Oh, yes, that is very annoying.

But that matters less for smaller applications, doesn't it?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Well, people still price things differently in different markets.

Cerberus

Or would you say "does it"?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus It matters less, but it still matters, and I get buy pretty well with only free software.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I guess they sometimes try, but don't you think it is harder and less prevalent?

@MrShinyandNew安宇 So do I. But sometimes...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

14:32

Games are an exception, because they are fundamentally different in many ways. I can think of it as "pay $5 for X hours of entertainment" and when those hours are up, any more hours of entertainmetn are a bonus.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Same here.

I always pay for games.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I think it's common. But probably not common for little online shops that sell one or two programs and only accept PayPal.

Cerberus

I often download the game after I've already paid for it for convenience, but I have very little trouble motivating myself to pay for a good game.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Exactly.

hace-software.com/mmm-plus.shtml

Look at this and guess how much they want for this for a "lifetime" license, as opposed to 1 year.

I might pay € 1 for this, because I really want it.

My estimate is that they make exactly 0 sales at this price.

And maybe a hundred at € 1.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Well, it's for XP only... so their market is limited.

Cerberus

Very.

And it's from 2005.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

14:37

And their web page is not very professional-looking

Cerberus

So why don't they lower their price?

@MrShinyandNew安宇 It's not, but that doesn't matter to me.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus well, the support costs of maintaining the app, the updates, and the licensing for "life" are constant but the revenue must be declining and will continue to decline for ever no matter their price point. So probably they're not interested in new sales of this antique.

Robusto

Exactly 16K questions at this moment. A milestone.

Cerberus

Then don't offer support, just sell the application.

Robusto

That's about as many as SO gets in a single day.

Cerberus

14:39

There have been no updates for years and year. So I don't think there is any support.

Hello.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus no updates?

Cerberus

No.

I found a version 2.02 on my computer that was several years old.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus so the 1 year thing is just "we limit the license cuz we can"?

Cerberus

Yes.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

That's another reason, then, why they won't make any sales

Cerberus

14:40

Because they don't offer support?

I don't think I would need support. In fact I have used the program in the past.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Yeah. If I am paying on a time-limited basis for something, I expect some consideration in return. Otherwise, let me buy it outright.

@Cerberus support = bug fixes and new features for free, not "help"

Cerberus

But don't you think $ 27 for this is a very silly price?

@MrShinyandNew安宇 All right, any of that: the program does what it states, and I like it, and I need no bug fixes or extra features.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Mmm+ (no updates) — 11.16 CAD
Mmm+ (1 year) — 18.97 CAD
Mmm+ (for life) — 33.48 CAD

Cerberus

I mean, they would be nice, but not an important point.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Those are the prices I see

So from that I take it that "1 year" and "for life" mean "updates".

In that case I would expect to get updates

Cerberus

14:43

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Oh, yes.

I see what you mean.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So, in that case, it's $11 to buy it outright, which is probably ok, depends on the app.

Cerberus

I think that is still a very bad price point.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So you could probably pay 8 EUR

Cerberus

I may switch to Win 7 in six months. Why would I want to pay $11 now?

Yes, € 8,72.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Probably nobody is buying this anymore. Even going into the website and changing the prices is probably a waste of their time

Cerberus

14:45

I want to pay € 1. That's what I would be prepared to pay.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus send them an email

Gigili

Also, how much is the GN now @Cerb?

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Yeah OK, that could be the case. This is just an extreme example. But I see lots of other, more popular programs that I think could rake in heaps more money if they lowered their prices.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Heh, I could do that. But I find their prices so unsympathetic (even back when everybody used XP) that I am disinclined to make the effort.

I enjoy paying to people I like.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Frankly, this program seems overpriced no matter how you look at it.

All it does is remove things from the Explorer context menu?

Cerberus

@Gigili tweakers.net/pricewatch/292563/…

Still € 353.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Exactly, yes.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

14:48

The kind of people who would install this program are the same kind of people who can google "how to remove things from the explorer context menu", fire up Regedit, and be done with it.

Cerberus

All desktop programs seem to be either over € 10 or free. While I think the sweet spot (max revenue) would be around € 4.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 I am the kind of person who uses this!

Gigili

@Cerberus Thank you. I'll save the link.

Cerberus

Fiddling with the context menu in the registry is 1.) cumbersome, and 2.) said to be prone to cause issues.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus You are A) completely atypical of any desktop user I've ever encountered, and B) capable of following instructions on how to edit the registry, thus achieving your goal for free

RegDwight ΒВBẞ8

Damn, Cerberus really doesn't like me at all.

Cerberus

14:50

With this program, I can just drag around context entries between submenus, for each file extension separately.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus bah, deleting random shit in the registry can cause issues. Following carefully written instructions, not so much. Just back up your system or whatever you do.

@Cerberus It's doing the exact same thing.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Ad A, thanks!! Ad B, I have considered it, but no.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Cumbersome.

This takes me 5 seconds.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So what's wrong with the free one? it seems to be the same version #

Cerberus

Having to edit the registry with all the right settings for all the entries that I want to move for all the extensions...would take hours, and I can't know that I'm not messing something up, because I don't know what I'm doing.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus That's a good price... it's $600 CAD here.

@Cerberus Oh, you want to edit the context menu for various file-types....

Cerberus

14:52

@MrShinyandNew安宇 It has a coloured bar that attracts attention every time it changes colour. Makes me less productive. And I think there was something else. Besides, I like paying € 1 for this program, because it's great. Except that I can't.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Well, most good programs these days let you control what file associations they take and whether or not the install custom context menus.

Cerberus

Yes, but it's much slower and less convenient.
Drag and drop, baby!

@MrShinyandNew安宇 They usually don't allow you to put the entries in specific submenus together with entries from other programs.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus No but I've never really wanted to do that

Maybe you have too many programs installed? :)

Cerberus

What I want is two things: 1.) only have the entries I used most in the root context menu; 2.) have the entries organised in some way that makes sense. Oh, and I want a.) to do this easily and quickly, and b.) each change to be easily reversible.

Gigili

@RegDwightΒВBẞ8 Oh, dear. Have tried changing yourself? Or changing your ways, even

Cerberus

14:56

@MrShinyandNew安宇 At the moment, not so many in fact. But look at this:

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I usually just want to remove the ones that I don't use, because whatever they do I can usually do the "long" way if I ever need to do that, which is doubtful because no program is so important that it dominates my use of Explorer

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Same here, but having it in a submenu is a win-win: it's still easy to get at, but it takes up no space or attention.

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…