English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Valid? It just sounds colloquial to me, and I would not use a colloquialism in he did good on the test, but I might use it in I'm good, because the subject matter lends itself better to colloquial speech.

Mahnax

2:45 AM

Adverbs with the exact same meanings, in fact.

I may have just answered my own Q.

Cerberus

Heh.

You asked about interchangeable.

Mahnax

Well, are two words with the exact same meanings not interchangeable?

Cerberus

Not sure they are interchangeable there.

They have different connotations and registers.

Mahnax

Yes, but in terms of grammatical validity, how is there a difference?

Cerberus

What is validity?

Mahnax

2:47 AM

The quality of being valid…?

Cerberus

It implies some objective standard?

Mahnax

Well, proper grammar is a standard.

Cerberus

There are many standards.

I think she did good on the test will be frowned upon by many people.

Mahnax

flips table

Yes, frowned upon. I agree. Is it wrong, though?

Cerberus

There is no right or wrong.

Mahnax

2:49 AM

Then again, right and wrong in language are really just set by what hoi polloi use.

Cerberus

They are not set: they do not exist.

Mahnax

Quite.

Cerberus

In casual speech, by "wrong" you mean "not acceptable to a certain group".

Mahnax

Sort of.

Cerberus

Usually a group of your peers or the people you admire.

Mahnax

2:51 AM

There is a definite wrong; you could not say he are.

Cerberus

Why not?

Anything is possible. It is just a gradual difference.

Mahnax

That's not the the verb to be is conjugated.

Cerberus

One thing is acceptable to more people than another.

Mahnax

At the current time.

Cerberus

Says who?

He are.

There.

Mahnax

2:52 AM

gasps

Please find me someone who says that he are is ~~valid~~ right.

Cerberus

Valid?

Mahnax

I will give you more Coke Citra if you can.

Cerberus

You're trying to find some objective standard.

Mahnax

No, not really.

Cerberus

I think a very large majority will find he are unacceptable. Is that what you want to hear?

Mahnax

2:54 AM

Yes! Okay, there, what I'm trying to say now is that at the current time, there is a definite wrong, a definite right, and a really nice big grey area in between.

Cerberus

mlb.sbnation.com/2011/6/26/2245461/…

I disagree about anything definite.

Mahnax

Well, this is going nowhere then.

One does not simply discuss with philosophers.

Cerberus

So you want me to cite the other 1.74 million examples of he are?

Mahnax

Shall I cite the 1.1 billion examples of he is?

Cerberus

He are is unacceptable to more people than he did good, but the latter is still unacceptable to a sizable group.

What else is there to say about this?

Mahnax

2:56 AM

I don't know.

I don't even remember why I brought it up.

Cerberus

You already know that he did good is more acceptable, so that's probably not what you were after.

cpx

What about 'I are won"?

Cerberus

Same as he are.

Perhaps even less acceptable, because I don't know what it is supposed to mean.

Mahnax

Well, let's just let it go then.

Cerberus

OK.

Mahnax

3:00 AM

Good then.

How was your day?

Cerberus

Good, I have just come back from a birthday party.

Mahnax

Ah, nice.

Cerberus

While you were working.

Mahnax

Was it fun?

Cerberus

Hehe.

Yeah it was pretty fun.

Mahnax

3:01 AM

Are you totally wasted, duuuuude?

headbangs

Cerberus

It was in this kind of hipster industrial former-warehouse-turned-bar-dancing.

Heh, no, I only drank maybe 5 beers.

And the last one was hours ago.

Mahnax

Oh, I'm proud of you.

Cerberus

Thanks!!

I didn't drink much more yesterday.

Mahnax

You earned it.

Cerberus

Yay.

Mahnax

3:02 AM

Here, have this cookie.

Cerberus

Drinking is bad for you.

devours cookie

Oh nice one!

The chocolate bits are orderly spread.

Mahnax

> In small quantities, having red wine every day can benefit your health through antioxidants…

nyarghg nyragh nryryyyyrrrrrghty

Cerberus

I think that's not true, sorry. It's the alcohol that is good for people, and only for older people (like 50+).

The stuff about antioxidants has been disproven, I believe.

Mahnax

Hence the garble afterwards.

Cerberus

Oh heh.

Mahnax

3:04 AM

I still hear people say that about once a fortnight, though.

Cerberus

Haha.

The research is fairly recent.

Mahnax

Yeah, it is.

People were quite obsessed with antioxidants for a while, though.

Cerberus

The definition of binge drinking is 1750 ml beer in two hours.

Mahnax

Oh my.

Cerberus

@Mahnax Yes, but mainly silly "healthy food" wrappers, I think.

Mahnax

3:06 AM

@Cerberus Yeah.

Cerberus

I don't think I have binge-drunk tonight.

Mahnax

I doubt it.

Cerberus

I drank maybe 1500 ml in 2.5 hours.

Mahnax

1 beer is 355 mL here.

Cerberus

It's less here, I think. Let me find a bottle.

Mahnax

3:07 AM

Ah OK.

Cerberus

Yes, it's 300 ml here.

Mahnax

Ah OK.

Cerberus

By the way, no capital.

Mahnax

Uh, yes capital.

Oh, I said "Ah OK." twice. Oops.

Cerberus

Hmm actually it's 330 ml, the kind I drank tonight.

Mahnax

3:09 AM

Oh, interesting.

Maybe there isn't a capital.

Cerberus

So 1800 ml in 2.5 hours.

Mahnax

I've been taught it that way for my entire life.

Cerberus

A capital in litre?

Mahnax

No, just when using it as a unit, L.

Cerberus

It's always liter and l and ml here.

Mahnax

3:10 AM

Litre

The litre (American spelling: liter; SI symbol l or L) is a non-SI metric system unit of volume equal to 1 cubic decimetre (dm3), or 1,000 cubic centimetres (cm3), or 1/1,000 cubic metre. If the lower case L is used as the symbol, it is sometimes rendered as a cursive ℓ to help distinguish it from the capital "I", although this usage has no official approval by any international bureau. The word litre is derived from an older French unit, the litron, whose name came from Greek via Latin. The original French metric system used the litre as a base unit, and it has been used in several su...

Cerberus

Perhaps there are different conventions?

Mahnax

ML

ml may refer to: * millilitre (also spelled milliliter; symbol mL, ml, or mℓ), a thousandth of a litre (an SI unit of capacity) — not to be mixed up with millilambert * Malayalam language ISO 639-1 code * Mali, ISO 3166-1 country code * .ml, the top-level Internet domain for Mali mL may refer to: * millilambert, a thousandth of a lambert, an old non-SI unit of luminance — not to be mixed up with millilitre ML may refer to: * Major League Baseball, usually abbreviated "MLB", but sometimes simply "ML" * Some models of the Mercedes-Benz M-Class (e.g. ML320, ML430) * Marxism-Leninism * Med...

Ah, I see.

Cerberus

Ah yes.

Mahnax

So we are both right.

I will stick with mL for now.

Cerberus

So there are two options. And the capital is used to make the l more distinguishable.

People shouldn't use sans-serif fonts anyway!

Mahnax

3:12 AM

I agree.

Serif all the way!

Cerberus

Oh! This is unexpected.

Mahnax

I might even go so far as to advocate monospace.

Might.

Cerberus

Hmm.

Your idea has merit, but...

But ehm I have to get up in six hours.

Mahnax

Oh, that's no fun.

Are you off to bed, then?

Cerberus

Yeah.

We're having this yearly asparagus luncheon at my aunt and uncle's.

Mahnax

3:16 AM

That sounds, uh, fun.

I like asparagus though.

Cerberus

So I have to take the train at some ungodly hour.

Yeah.

Mahnax

Aww.

Cerberus

It's fine, except that it's way too early for something that takes place in a different city (near The Hague).

Mahnax

Ah I see.

What exactly is The Hague?

Cerberus

It's 50 minutes from here.

Mahnax

3:17 AM

Oh, the government building?

What it is? A city.

Oh.

The Hague ( , officially 's-Gravenhage ) is the capital city of the province of South Holland in the Netherlands. With a population of 500,000 inhabitants (as of 1 September 2011), and more than one million inhabitants including the suburbs, it is the third largest city of the Netherlands, after Amsterdam and Rotterdam. Located in the west of the Netherlands, The Hague is in the centre of the Haaglanden conurbation and lies at the southwest corner of the larger Randstad conurbation. The Hague is the seat of the Dutch government and parliament, the Supreme Court, and the Council of Sta...

Mahnax

Is the government building in The Hague?

Oh, well, there we go.

Cerberus

There isn't one government building. But the government officially resides in The Hague, and so most of its buildings are there too.

As is the court.

Mahnax

3:18 AM

OK.

Cerberus

The mediaeval parliament buildings are in the Hague too.

Mahnax

Oh, cool!

Cerberus

And parliament.

So for some reason our seat of government is not in the capital.

Mahnax

Hm, odd.

Ah well, get thee to bed!

Cerberus

I think that was because the stadtholders did not want Amsterdam too have too much power.

Hmm but the parliament buildings were there much earlier.

Oh, well.

Good night!

Mahnax

3:22 AM

Good night!

Cerberus

Bye, you too, whenever your bed time is!

Mahnax

In four or five hours.

But yes, good night!

Cerberus

Parliament buildings.

Bye!

user19161

7:07 AM

@Cerberus Lovely! I imagine you rowing on the river.

Gigili

Lovely is the word. I'll plan to visit the city one day.

user19161

Wow, I got 20 votes for the "please yourself" answer, fascinating.

Gigili

I thought only Italians rowed around the city.

user19161

I don't know. I usually talk rubbish.

user19161

@gig I see you always have interesting profile stories.

Gigili

7:18 AM

It's 'G'.

Repeat after me, 'G'.

user19161

Is it your real name by the way?

Gigili

What do you think?

user19161

I don't know. It might be in Persian.

user19161

But it sounds really Italian to me.

user19161

So it might be that you have an Italian name too.

user19161

7:22 AM

@cpx So I heard you got a copy of CGE?

Gigili

My real name is much more beautiful and sounds less funnier than Gigili.

user19161

@Gigili less funny

Gigili

Less funnier.

user19161

@Gigili So what does gigili mean then?

Gigili

Oh, less funny.

That's funnier?

user19161

7:24 AM

@kuyan Hi!

Gigili

I should've slept more.

@ClarkKent Sensible, good-humored, awesome and some other meanings that I don't recall right at the moment.

user19161

@Gigili Oh?

Gigili

I thought you knew?

user19161

I have now cast exactly 1000 downvotes and exactly 6000 upvotes.

Gigili

Good for you.

cpx

7:58 AM

@ClarkKent: Not yet.. but yes, I placed the order a while ago.

For the time being, I'm taking some notes from "English Grammar Understanding Basics" by Evelyn P. Altenberg.

Gigili

@cpx What's your mother tongue?

Gigili

8:21 AM

It's quiet here. Too quiet... Almost as if... oh, never mind. It's just quiet.

5

Chris

11:04 AM

Good afternoon, would anyone know how I would go about praising an institution's communication efforts? I started off by writing 'I am very impressed with...', but I wouldn't know how to go about this without involving myself as being part of the process (in reality, I have been on the receiving end of many well written emails and whatnot - my involvement has been mostly passive). How do I tell them that I appreciate 'their side' of the communication?

Gigili

1:31 PM

3

Q: What does "ad-hoc" mean?

I read some articles that used ad-hoc like an adjective. Questions: What exactly does it mean in this paragraph: Needless to say, all of that is pretty painful and error prone. Sure, once you’re familiar with a library, you’d probably just copy it from another project instead of getting ...

Why don't you close it as Gen-ref @Reg?

kuyan

4:50 PM

@ClarkKent Hi!

@Cerberus: Thanks.

Meysam رها در بند

hi gigili

Gigili

Hi, Meysam.

Meysam رها در بند

are those your own fingers?

Gigili

They are.

Meysam رها در بند

I like the idea and the execution

user19161

4:59 PM

@Meysamرهادربند Another difficult word there!

Gigili

@Meysamرهادربند Thank you. The idea is not mine, by the way.

user19161

How did my rep increase by 1?

user19161

I guess an answer I downvoted was deleted.

Meysam رها در بند

@ClarkKent come on it is not that hard. I learned it from playing FIFA 2012. whenever I strike the commentator says: the idea was good, execution was not!

Gigili

@Meysamرهادربند Huh, great.

user19161

5:01 PM

@Meysamرهادربند Haha, now I know why I only know 18k words. I don't play games!

Gigili

All Iranians are great like that.

user19161

@kuyan You may use the right arrow to reply. Hover over a message and look for it on the right of the message.

user19161

@Gigili Yes, Gigili the Great.

user19161

Meysam the Magnificent.

Meysam رها در بند

@Gigili Did you see the football match? we won!

@ClarkKent You are making me flattered! :D

user19161

5:04 PM

@Meysamرهادربند No, I was just practising some alliteration!

Meysam رها در بند

@ClarkKent Try playing some games instead

What's the mining of "much obliged"? and when is it used?

user19161

@Meysamرهادربند Now that you mention this, I am not sure. Let someone else answer you.

Gigili

Mining?

Cheshmet zad?

Meysam رها در بند

@ClarkKent Why?

@Gigili khob nemidoonam chikar konam :))))

oh

eshtebah shod

@ClarkKent typo!

Gigili

@Meysamرهادربند oaadonline.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/dictionary/obliged

user19161

5:10 PM

@Meysamرهادربند dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/obliged_2

user19161

The subtlety is that in language, the whole is not merely the sum of the parts.

user19161

"Much obliged" is not simply "much" plus "obliged".

Meysam رها در بند

Ok I was thinking of the meaning of oblige as force or compel, so, turns out it has a second meaning I was not aware of

Gigili

@Meysamرهادربند Khahesh mikonam, aslan harfesham nazan!

user19161

@Meysamرهادربند As you can see from my link, "obliged" is also used to thank people or request them to do things.

kuyan

5:15 PM

@ClarkKent I completely knew that. Thanks

Meysam رها در بند

@Gigili I know this is the Incomprehensible room, but English is still kind of preferred. Thank you.

Gigili

Funny, funny.

Meysam رها در بند

what's the meaning of "incomprehensible room"?

user19161

@Meysamرهادربند A room whose contents cannot be understood. QED.

user19161

@Gigili You have been infected with Mahnax's reduplication.

Meysam رها در بند

5:25 PM

@ClarkKent Aha! understood!

user19161

@Meysamرهادربند I took that as a rhetorical question.

Meysam رها در بند

@ClarkKent You do not know why it's funny. Only me and Gigili know.

user19161

@Meysamرهادربند Er, I know more things than you think! Mwahaha!

user19161

I just pretend not to know what people are discussing sometimes...

Mitch

@Meysamرهادربند really? I thought all languages were welcome here as long as -somebody- can understand. (but unfortunately google translate doesn't translate transcribed Farsi)

user19161

5:30 PM

I got another plus one for another deleted answer I downvoted.

user19161

Interestingly the downvote count does not change to reflect that.

Meysam رها در بند

@Mitch Well, I am not aware of the rules of this room. Maybe all languages are allowed. But English is still kind of preferred.

user19161

@Meysamرهادربند I also hope you have patched up with Robusto. I think he was just joking with you that time you flagged him.

Meysam رها در بند

@ClarkKent Search further back in time to find the origin of the sentence. QED.

user19161

@Meysamرهادربند Now everyone has to pay me royalties for using QED.

user19161

5:36 PM

Including the OED itself.

Meysam رها در بند

@ClarkKent You cannot claim you are the first one to have used it. Can you?

user19161

@Meysamرهادربند Haha, I am the first one to use it in a non-traditional sense perhaps.

user19161

@Gigili This got two stars? Fascinating.

Gigili

I don't care about stars, I have much more important things to be worried about.

Meysam رها در بند

@ClarkKent I doubled the first star, any objection?

Gigili

5:40 PM

Like, moon. Or sun, even.

user19161

@Gigili Indeed, though the latter is also a star.

user19161

-1

Q: Student:Classmate::Teacher:____________?

A student is a classmate, schoolmate, etc. to another student. But what is a teacher to another teacher? Couldn't it be colleague? Surely not, because a colleague could be any employee working with another.

single-word-requests

user19161

I think this question does not deserve so many downvotes. OP is just asking for an alternative to "colleague" that may exist in this case.

Meysam رها در بند

Plus, it's not the number of stars that count. There are many other important things like how bright they shine, how far they are, etc.

Mitch

@Meysamرهادربند rules? I think that's the point. It's common courtesy on most sites to use a single language (on the french, german, et al. SE's Englisha nd the native language are both acceptable.

but here...

I think Navaho would be accepted as long as

user19161

5:43 PM

@Mitch Well, we don't talk about English here only, do we? So the way I see it is, accept all things as long as they are not excessive.

Mitch

as long as there was an attempt at humor involved.

user19161

I find it strange that sometimes we subconsciously impose rules on others when we don't impose the same on ourselves.

Meysam رها در بند

I will be back in 45 minutes

Mitch

@ClarkKent No that's that right...if I had said it it would have been right though.

user19161

@Mitch I did not say you imposed rules on others. I was speaking in general.

Mitch

5:52 PM

I was messing with you. See how my statement was a rule I imposed on you but not on myself?

user19161

@Mitch I am getting a little confused now!

Mitch

@ClarkKent "Couldn't it be colleague? Surely not, because a colleague could be any employee working with another" - I think this is read as too presumptive. (I read it as too presumptive). and that puts pople off (I didn't downvote)

lame attempt at humor.

user19161

@Mitch Yes, it could read as assuming "colleague" could not be used. However, it could also mean that he was really looking for an alternative even though he knew "colleague" applied.

user19161

So I see a sentence and I try to parse it in 9000 ways.

Mitch

6:07 PM

It's also presumptive because of the assumed parallelism. Even when things are parallel, there's sometimes a lexical gap. Look at the male-female versions of animals: sheep/ram/ewe, pig/hog/sow, fox/renard/vixen, ??/bull/cow, dog/??/bitch, even for well known things that sould have a parallel 'single-word' are missing it.

cpx

7:49 PM

@Gigili I speak one of the indian languages.

Gigili

Okay.

I got a notification that "you've been mentioned in ELU room that you're not currently in" which is really nice since I thought I was here.

user19161

@cpx Ah, may I ask which?

user19161

@Gigili Yes, nice like you.

user19161

@monica Hello! How is your computer problem now?

Gigili

@ClarkKent Nicer than me, more like you.

user19161

7:57 PM

@Mitch Interestingly, "presumptive" and "presumptuous" mean different things. Your message made me look up the two words. The former is not commonly used.

Meysam رها در بند

Hi

user19161

@Chris Too vague. More details are needed. Do you mean that you don't want to sound as if you did a lot of stuff because you haven't?

Gigili

Hello again, Meysam.

user19161

Hi GG and MM.

user19161

(Gigili the Great and Meysam the Magnificent)

Cerberus

8:41 PM

@Mat: I read that your jubilee was very English.

Meysam رها در بند

8:55 PM

In this sentence: "The above statement by Jonolan is as true a statement as anyone can divulge."

Cerberus

What about it? And how is your chest pain?

Meysam رها در بند

My chest is good

isn't "a statement" in "as true a statement as" redundant?

Cerberus

As [adjective] a [noun] as [x] is an idiomatic phrase.

But yes I agree a statement is redundant.

Mitch

@ClarkKent Oh. It's not like I -know- things. I didn't know they were different. I'm hoping either would have worked in that context

Meysam رها در بند

@Cerberus So it's redundant but commonly used, right?

Cerberus

9:01 PM

And I'm not sure how you would divulge a statement. It is possible, but it requires a less common context.

Mitch

now that I checked both presumptive and presumptuous work. I kinda both meant them as 'expected but in an arrogant manner'

Cerberus

@Meysamرهادربند The idiomatic phrase is common, but you would not normally repeat the same noun.

Meysam رها در بند

@Cerberus It's not my sentence and I have no idea what the meaning of divulge is

Cerberus

It means to make public.

But a statement is already quite public under normal circumstances.

Meysam رها در بند

@Cerberus which answer would you accept? english.stackexchange.com/q/69844/3690

Gigili

9:07 PM

Which song of Siavash Ghomeishi do you like the best @Meysam?

Meysam رها در بند

@Gigili Many, but for now I can say: Khabidi bedoone lalayi o ghese. I love it

@Gigili And your choice?

Gigili

@Meysamرهادربند I didn't know him well. I just listened to kheili mamnoon.

Let me see how is the one you recommended.

Meysam رها در بند

Let me know if you couldn't find the song

Cerberus

@Meysamرهادربند Lawler's.

Meysam رها در بند

@Gigili 4shared.com/mp3/qirkDr7r/siavash_ghomeishi-khabidi_bedu.html

Gigili

9:25 PM

@Meysamرهادربند Oh thank you. I found this one while searching and got distracted by the comments.

Meysam رها در بند

@Gigili Ok you found the wrong thing. listen to the link I sent you

user19161

Hi @jecimi. What brings you here today?

Meysam رها در بند

9:43 PM

@ClarkKent Staying here is more important than coming in here. We have to help him/her find a reason to stay :)

user19161

@Meysamرهادربند Easy, there are the Great, the Magnificent and the Super here!

Gigili

@Meysamرهادربند It's great.

Meysam رها در بند

@Gigili Do you want more recommendations? :)

Gigili

@Meysamرهادربند Uhum.

Meysam رها در بند

@Gigili It sometimes makes me cry

user19161

9:45 PM

@Meysamرهادربند makes

Meysam رها در بند

@ClarkKent thanks

Gigili

@Meysamرهادربند It's indeed so. He sings in a deep voice.

user19161

I find it a little strange that sometimes people pop in here once in a while and say nothing.

user19161

@Gigili Wait till you hear me sing!

Gigili

How did you like the one I recommended @Meysam?

user19161

9:49 PM

@Gigili He looks a little dead in that video.

Gigili

Who?

user19161

No matter what the lyrics are saying, I think he looks weird.

user19161

The last youtube link you gave.

Meysam رها در بند

@Gigili It's among his latest songs, and not as great as his previous works. His songs are always great though.

@ClarkKent He is someone else. The video is a wrong one.

user19161

@Meysamرهادربند Haha, the guy in that video is definitely an amateur.

Meysam رها در بند

9:52 PM

@ClarkKent He is. and the way he sings is awful!

@Gigili another recommendation: 4shared.com/mp3/RkyfncAE/gol-o-tagarg.html

Gigili

Thank you.

user19161

@Meysamرهادربند I love that site but I don't use it anymore because now one needs to create an account.

user19161

I hate having 9000 accounts all over the internet.

user19161

Soon one will forget what accounts he has.

Gigili

Not when you use Chrome.

Meysam رها در بند

9:55 PM

@ClarkKent You can download without needing an account. But for listening online, you need an account. I agree that it sucks.

Gigili

It'll remember all passwords.

user19161

@Meysamرهادربند No, I don't think you can download now.

user19161

@Gigili But I like to store nothing in my browser!

user19161

And honestly I still prefer Firefox.

user19161

Of course, FF can store passwords too.

Meysam رها در بند

9:58 PM

@ClarkKent Oh, you need to login to download... it wasn't like this before. seems like their policy has changed.

user19161

@Meysamرهادربند Yes, that's what I meant just now.

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