English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

KitFox

8:00 PM

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Still, it seems this must be a dupe.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

maybe

user19161

Coffee is not nice when cold, unless it's iced coffee.

user19161

So nice drinks are usually very hot or very cold but not in between.

Theta30

@JasperLoy I agree

but my brother drinks even when it's not hot

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@Kit @Rob will you have a bar for sniping? This back and forth is killing me. We used to be 1k ahead, now it's 300 behind again.

KitFox

8:09 PM

@RegDwightѬſ道 I can.

Sonic The Hedgehog

Whats bar for sniping?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Spoken like a true Obama.

I applaud your Obamaness!

user19161

@SonicTheHedgehog They are playing a game somewhere else.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

kongregate.com/games/synapticon/tyrant

KitFox

@RegDwightѬſ道 I am here to be applauded.

Shall I start now?

Cerberus

8:12 PM

I kept losing.

user19161

@Cerberus Time to quit!

Cerberus

And for some reason my passive score is positive so I'll keep it at that.

@JasperLoy Don't worry, I stopped fighting.

Robusto

@RegDwightѬſ道 I will burn one now. Also, I will assist in the war effort. The two things are not mutually exclusive.

KitFox

No bogarting in this chat!

user19161

@Cerberus Is it a shooting game?

Cerberus

8:14 PM

@JasperLoy No, it is a turn-based card game.

user19161

I am good at shooting. I score full marks with a real rifle in the day time.

Cerberus

Seriously?

Wowie.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JasperLoy for some reason, the thought of you using live ammunition scares me a bit.

Theta30

@JasperLoy 30 minutes appears to be within the proper period cooking.stackexchange.com/a/19256/5009

user19161

@Cerberus Yes. But I score almost zero at night because of my astigmatism.

user19161

8:16 PM

@Theta30 Haha, I did not expect you to do research on this!

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus I just got to the end of the video. kinda scary when I think about how much data is stored about me by my ISP

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Ah, you've finished it already! I need to pause and rewind a lot. And run back to the screen while making dinner, when I can't follow something. Yeah, did they give you info about things your ISP could be doing?

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus nono, I know what my ISP have been told to store for 7 years by law. I asked my MP to vote against that law.

Cerberus

Luckily I have nothing to hide from my ISP or the government. But I do hate the ease with which privacy is broken.

Matt Эллен

exactly

Cerberus

8:19 PM

@MattЭллен Ohh wow, 7 years, seriously?

Matt Эллен

yeah

Cerberus

That is very long.

user19161

Why is it called seven year itch?

user19161

Does it really happen after seven years?

Matt Эллен

what is the 7 year itch?

Cerberus

8:22 PM

Depends in which one Jas means?

Robusto

@Reg: Spent, 105 ahead.

Cerberus

Scabies, or the theory that relationships often flounder after 7 years?

Jon Purdy

Well, I answered that question question. What’s the verdict?

user19161

@Cerberus phrases.org.uk/meanings/seven-year-itch.html

user19161

@MattЭллен phrases.org.uk/meanings/seven-year-itch.html

Matt Эллен

8:23 PM

I see

RegDwight Ѭſ道

100 behind now. I'm starting.

KitFox

@JonPurdy Link?

Jon Purdy

3

Q: Why some questions are written in this funny way?

There, I did it myself. Instead of asking "Why are some questions written in this funny way?", I produced what strikes me as bad English ever so often: Questions that are formed by starting out with "Why" (or other interrogative words), followed by what seems to be a normal subject-verb-object se...

The one that was most recently talked about in here. :P

KitFox

Yes, but I'm lazy.

Jon Purdy

I’m just not sure what form bother is in in “why bother?”

“Why be…” suggests infinitive/bare.

Matt Эллен

8:30 PM

isn't it just headlineese? "[this is]Why we eat to stay alive"

Jon Purdy

@MattЭллен Not when it has a question mark.

Matt Эллен

oh right.

Jon Purdy

A headlined question tends to be phrased in the usual way, though (pretty much by definition) rhetorically. “Who Wants to Get Rich?”

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JonPurdy your answer is what I wanted to write. +1 from me.

Matt Эллен

"Why we eat to stay alive" seems normal to me

Jon Purdy

8:34 PM

@MattЭллен Yes, but it’s not a question.

KitFox

Except the OP said he put in the "missing question marks."

Matt Эллен

@JonPurdy I never said it was. I'm saying it's normal to find headlines like that

Jon Purdy

@MattЭллен Okay, agreed, absolutely.

KitFox

And he got them from StackExchange question titles.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@MattЭллен In that case it's a dupe.

Matt Эллен

8:36 PM

@JonPurdy high five for consensus

RegDwight Ѭſ道

@KitFox I failed to notice that. Cheater!

Matt Эллен

@RegDwightѬſ道 I see. I haven't been paying enough attention to recognise it.

Jon Purdy

@KitFox So? There isn’t really a consistent standard for question titles. Broadly, some are declarative (like titles) and some are interrogative (like questions) and when you tack a question mark onto the former you get what we observe here.

user19161

@JonPurdy I omit the question mark when writing the title in this way.

user19161

It just becomes a phrase.

user19161

8:39 PM

Why did he do this? --> Why he did this

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JasperLoy that's what you're supposed to do

Jon Purdy

@JasperLoy That’s correct. But “Why he did this?” is (to my eye) wrong.

user19161

@JonPurdy Yet many titles here are like that.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

But if someone says "Uhoh, Jasper wrote a question! better add a ?" then it becomes wrong.

user19161

What is the difference between A and B? --> Difference between A and B

Jon Purdy

8:41 PM

As a descriptivist, of course, my “wrong” means “whatever most relevant people disagree with”.

Cerberus

@Jon: I think both you and Irene make valid points. But I think we need more context: I suspect that the OP labelled a few titles as questions that weren't questions but just descriptive titles, of the type chapter 1: on why women do not like to wear underwear.

KitFox

Jasper wrote this weird question "Why he did this?" (I added the missing question mark.)

Cerberus

@JonPurdy Isn't that what intelligent people always mean when they say that?

Jon Purdy

@Cerberus I read your “capter” as a chapter about a caper. :)

@Cerberus Hah, no.

Cerberus

Haha oops!

Corrected.

@JonPurdy How do you know?

Noöne with an ounce of education thinks there are objective truths in language use.

KitFox

8:44 PM

@JonPurdy Because they were declarative titles and he tacked a question mark on it and called it a poorly phrased question.

Jon Purdy

@Cerberus By counterexample. I know an intelligent person who is a prescriptivist and insists on objective grammatical correctness.

Cerberus

@JonPurdy Are you sure? Have you really investigated his theories?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JonPurdy Isn't that a contradiction in terms? :p

Jon Purdy

@Cerberus I am sure insofar as one can be reasonably sure of anything.

Cerberus

I am a strong prescriptivist in that I want language to be a certain way. But I know very well how arbitrary this desire is.

@JonPurdy But then how can he be intelligent?

Jon Purdy

8:46 PM

@Cerberus Intelligence does not necessitate agreeing with you, or me.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus yeah, like forcing people to understand greek grammar when speaking english. pfft

Cerberus

@JonPurdy Doesn't he know how language and our expectations of it change under all kinds of external and internal factors, etc.?

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Yes, like that.

Which is no different from telling people not to use "ain't".

Oops!

slaps himself with prescriptivist paw

Jon Purdy

One of the smartest people I know (a computer science graduate student focused on programming language theory) is a devout Christian. (We used to argue about religion, but we found that programming language design is more contentious.)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I no longer tell people not to use "ain't". Instead I tell them not to use it if they care that most people will consider their usage of it to be a sign of lack of intelligence or education.

@JonPurdy uhoh.

Cerberus

@JonPurdy Hehe nice.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

8:48 PM

hides from sound of can of worms being opened

Matt Эллен

I just shoot people who use ain't. it's better for both of us

damnit

Cerberus

Okay, I suppose even smart people can have strange lacunae, point granted.

Matt Эллен

shoots self

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MattЭллен Obama used it in a public speech once

@MattЭллен wait, you forgot the use/mention distinction!

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 And is that essentially different?

Matt Эллен

8:49 PM

shoots ghost bullets as Obama

KitFox

revives @Matt with Vac-U

Jon Purdy

@MattЭллен How do you feel about in’t? Is it bad like ain’t or is it just reduction of isn’t?

Cerberus

@MattЭллен The omission of quotation marks can be fatal!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus yes. Because I am not saying that they are wrong.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Well I can't find the original question. Go figure.

Matt Эллен

8:49 PM

@KitFox revives Thanks!

KitFox

@JonPurdy I believe it's spelt innit, innit?

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Found something else dupish though.

0

Q: Words order in a question

Which is better (and why)? Which feature should I attach this task to? or To which feature should I attach this task?

word-order questions

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Doesn't what you're saying amount to the same thing, but just using more words?

KitFox

@RegDwightѬſ道 I looked too. Couldn't find.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus nah, I'm kidding really. I'm not against it

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

8:50 PM

@RegDwightѬſ道 words order? GAH! loads pistol

Jon Purdy

@KitFox No, in’t meaning isn’t, not innit meaning isn’t it (or even things like aren’t they depending on where you ask).

Matt Эллен

I say in't quite often

RegDwight Ѭſ道

The above is pretty much a dupe of the canonical preposition question, innit.

KitFox

@JonPurdy OH, that.

Cerberus

Most people I know are perfectly aware of the fact that there is no objectively "right" language etc. etc., but we all call things right and wrong, which means just that people like us don't like it.

Matt Эллен

8:51 PM

"in't it" is something friends will hear me say

Jon Purdy

@RegDwightѬſ道 Aye, that it do indeed be.

RegDwight Ѭſ道

Also, aren't the following two the same question?

8

Q: Is it OK to add a question mark to show inflection?

When asking a question you generally have to raise your voice at the end of the sentence, is it okay to stuff a question mark in order to show inflection? A couple examples: 'That really happened?' 'I'm going to miss it again?' 'You did that?' etc...

punctuation writing questions question-mark

5

Q: Does appending a question mark to a declarative sentence result in a valid sentence?

Suppose I have the sentence: "All apples are green." Although it is not a true statement, clearly it is a declarative sentence. Can any declarative sentence like this be made into an interrogative sentence (a question) merely by replacing the period with a question mark? The reason I ask i...

word-order questions

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus no! because it's not a matter of right or wrong. It's a matter of presentation. Like I said, Obama used "ain't" in a speech. It was 100% correct by any logical standard.

I'm not trying to "correct" them.

Jon Purdy

The latter no, because it’s more general.

Oh wait, whether they’re the same as one another.

Matt Эллен

@KitFox I see, this is a Ratchet and Clank thing :)

Jon Purdy

8:52 PM

@RegDwightѬſ道 I think so, yes.

KitFox

@MattЭллен Did you go look it up? :P

Cerberus