English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

it doesn't bother me too often with its stupid "do you really want to do this?" messages now that I'm not always installing things, except basically every time I have a patch for a videogame, which is like every time I run one of my steam games, but it's probably better than everything running as admin all the time with no checks, so um, you're probably right

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So I never install crappy, shady third=party windows software from some dank alley

@aediaλ your steam games do that? mine never do. Granted, they're almost all valve.

Now, my one and only Windows-Live-gaming game (bioshock 2) is a major pain when it comes to updates.

Cerberus

I don't follow your argument. It's as simple as this: if you set up a VM once (heck, I'll let you have a copy of one of mine), you will forever have the ability to test and use software that could benefit you but that you perceive as a risk.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus No. You say that if I have a VM I can go wild and do all sorts of dangerous things. I say that if I'm going to do more than one dangerous thing I'd want more than one VM for it.

Cerberus

There's no downside.

Jon Purdy

I’m wondering about this question…it covers the same ground as the usual “I vs. me” questions, but it also has the bit about, e.g., “He and I we…”

Cerberus

5:20 PM

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Then I asked, why? You can just test it all on the same machine and roll back if needed.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Also I insist on paying for my commercial software in windows and so that means there's lots of it that I won't buy because I'm cheap.

@Cerberus which is almost exactly as annoying as doing it with a real pc.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 What does that have to do with it?

KitFox

@JonPurdy "He and I, we..."

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Why?

It's just click, click.

Jon Purdy

(Which is interesting because it’s got a grammatical topic.)

aedia λ

5:21 PM

@MrShinyandNew安宇 La Noire triggers UAC every time I run it in the past few days, and a couple other things did too, but I don't remember what (only had it back on just recently). I set the settings at default too, not the terribly restrictive one or anything, but it still keeps asking me. Ah well, maybe it'll settle down.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus it means I don't want just any VM software. Has to be Free.

Jon Purdy

@KitFox It’s nonstandard, so I daresay the comma is not a strict requirement. :P

Cerberus

@aediaλ Ahhhh! tries to keep silent but fails

aedia λ

@KitFox The question asked it sans comma

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 VMWare and Virtual Box are free. I recommend the latter, it's great.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

5:22 PM

@JonPurdy Is it nonstandard? Doesn't it just identify the people in "we"?

KitFox

@aediaλ I know.

aedia λ

Oh.

Cerberus

Perhaps you just don't know enough about how VMs work.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

"John, Matthew and I, we went to the store"

KitFox

@JonPurdy I argue that it is not nonstandard, and that the comma is required.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

5:23 PM

@Cerberus vmware is not Free

capital f

Jon Purdy

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Maybe. I was thinking of it as in the same class as “John he went”.

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 The free version is free. It does anything you need. If you don't believe me, sigh use Virtual Box, which is better anyway.

aedia λ

Didn't one of the answers say something about the comma bit?

Jon Purdy

(Alternatively with the comma.)

KitFox

@JonPurdy I'd still put a comma in that.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

5:24 PM

@Cerberus I know lots about how VMs work, I use them at work. I just don't feel that it's necessary. Maybe if I had your blase attitude towards OS maintenance I wouldn't care about maintaining a VM os that's decayed and decrepit. But I treat my VM the way I treat my M.

Jon Purdy

@KitFox Very well, but is “John” an appositive or is he a topic?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JonPurdy I'd say that with the comma it's grammatical, without, it's wrong, and that it's a "topic-comment" kind of structure

Cerberus

@MrShinyandNew安宇 You're wrong in all respects. You don't apply the principle of charity in any way. I have nothing more to say.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus don't apply the principle of charity?

Cerberus

I'm trying to offer a helpful suggestion to people and this is what I get.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

5:26 PM

@Cerberus I SAID it was a good idea but that I found it heavy-handed. Then you jumped down my throat!

To me, virtual machines are almost entirely as much trouble to maintain as regular machines, because I am quite strict about how I maintain my systems. So each one is a BURDEN. I don't bring a machine into this world lightly.

KitFox

@JonPurdy I haven't asked him. It isn't really my business.

:P

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

If I create a VM that does EVERYTHING dangerous then it'll be just as much of a chore to maintain as if all those dangerous things were on my main pc, because VM failure would have the same consequences as PC failure, unless none of those dangerous things were useful or important.

If they're not useful or important then I don't need them.

Jon Purdy

@KitFox Alright, I’m voting to close then.

KitFox

@JonPurdy Do we have an appositive v. topic-comment structure question?

Cerberus

Still wrong.

KitFox

5:29 PM

Because I think that would be pertinent.

aedia λ

@Cerberus Sounds like somebody hasn't had a good Herculean breakfast and a walkies round the labyrinth to work out some tension!

KitFox

Cerb's having a tough time lately.

Jon Purdy

@KitFox I don’t believe so. A cursory search doesn’t turn up much…

aedia λ

@Cerb scratches behind ears

KitFox

@JonPurdy Do you think we could turn this question into that? I think it could be interesting, but I'm not an expert.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

5:33 PM

@Cerberus Cerb, I use VMs at work, a lot. Almost every single machine at my workplace is virtual. I have Vmware on my desk for running scary or old shit (cough, XP, IE, cough). I know quite will how much effort I spend maintaining the VMs I have. And I resent every minute of it.

KitFox

Mom, Dad, don't fight!

Jon Purdy

@KitFox Not sure. That was my initial thought but it doesn’t look like good material. I might do something with it later.

KitFox

runs off and hides in grey sack

@JonPurdy Maybe you could write a blog entry about it.

I mean, for EL&U's blog.

Jon Purdy

Ah, okay, I was confused.

I was like “well, my main blog is ostensibly about language stuff as well”.

But yeah, I’d be happy to. Maybe not just about that topic (it’s rather narrow).

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Hm, I wasn't formally aware of appositives. Now that I see that, I think it might be a fine line between some appositives and topic-comment.

KitFox

5:36 PM

@JonPurdy Well, it doesn't need to be a thesis...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

(In fact I only learned about topic-comment in Chinese class; in Chinese it's common to do topic-comment-comment-comment...-comment)

aedia λ

Jon Purdy

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Yeah, maybe I’m more aware of it as a structure because of Chinese.

Anyway, I must temporarily be off.

Interview to do.

Cerberus

5:49 PM

@JonPurdy Yeah that could be considered topical apposition.

There is a name for it.

Which I forgot.

It's big in French.

It exists to some degree in most IE languages.

Robusto

6:02 PM

thingsappleisworthmorethan.tumblr.com

And I had it at $12. :(

Cerberus

You sold stocks at $ 12?

Aww.

Robusto

No. I bought it at $12, sold at $22. Did that three times in a row. Then it never went back down to $12.

I made a lot of money, but damn if I hadn't sold I'd be a very happy man with each share going for $500 today.

I made a nice profit each time, but face it: $500,000 > $30,000

aedia λ

Well, if wishes were fishes I'm sure we'd all have all the sushi we wanted too.

Robusto

If I had kept my Apple stock I could have all the sushi I wanted too.

As such, I have to ration my sushi consumption.

aedia λ

Better than nothin'.

Matt Эллен

6:13 PM

aye. better than having to ration kicks to the teeth

hi!

KitFox

...and a boot to the head. And one for Jenny and the wimp.

Ohai!

Matt Эллен

ah yes, those weakly interacting massive particles. they need a boot to the head

I showed people a graph today.

they said "it shouldn't look like that."

I said "it's your data."

now they need to fix something

KitFox

Hahaha

aedia λ

By the way, happy hleapan day!

KitFox

Ah, yes. Thank you.

And to you as well.

Matt Эллен

6:21 PM

To you too @aedia, @KitFox

KitFox

I had a myriad of people ask me if I was disappointed that my eldest was not born on Leap Day, to which I responded "hell, no. Who would want to be born on such a day?"

Matt Эллен

quite. what an odd thing to want!

KitFox

My nurse midwife told me that another patient had requested that day for her birth.

Awkward.

Matt Эллен

IMO the graph looked nice, like a crenellated tower top

Cerberus

@Robusto Ohh I see. Yeah, pretty nice profit, but I heard they are even around $ 600 now..

Matt Эллен

6:23 PM

@KitFox lol. "S/He will be born that day!"

KitFox

@MattЭллен Well, yeah. They can do that these days.

And she did.

aedia λ

It would be kind of cool I would think, though also possibly an inconvenience with paperwork...

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Haha Jesus.

aedia λ

To be born on that day I mean.

KitFox

@aediaλ And only being 4 when all the other kids are getting their driver's licenses.

aedia λ

6:24 PM

Hahahahaha.

KitFox

It would save on present costs though, and cake.

And only finally being able to drink when you're in the old folk's home.

Matt Эллен

@KitFox oh! wow. I have learned something :)

bbl, eating

KitFox

Personally, I find it incredibly offensive.

aedia λ

Birth scheduling?

KitFox

Not eating. Inducing labor for convenience.

Yes.

aedia λ

6:27 PM

It's stupid if it's not for medical reasons yeah.

KitFox

This must be similar to the way some people feel about homosinuality.

It's not only unnatural, it's just plain immoral.

Of course, these are the same women who like to be knocked out and have the baby removed.

And man, do I ever like to judge those kind of women.

silently judges those women

aedia λ

Silently judging is so much fun.

Cerberus

Haha.

Does that go with or without the finger?

KitFox

Of course, I was nervous about childbirth. I didn't think it would be a profound experience in and of itself. But you didn't see me all just trying to skip to the end.

Cerberus

And I don't mean the finger.

KitFox

6:31 PM

I don't know what you mean, if not the finger.

Cerberus

@KitFox If it were totally harmless, would you have popped a pill that made it quick and painless?

@KitFox I mean, do you point your index finger during the judging?

KitFox

@Cerberus It was quick and painless without a pill, jackass.

Cerberus

@KitFox Really?

Lucky.

KitFox

@Cerberus Oh. Hmm. Not so much with the silent judging.

@Cerberus Not lucky. It is the same for most women. And now that I've done it, I can't believe anyone would want to skip it.

And for the reason that they find it "inconvenient."

Cerberus

Huh? Most women I know say it was a terrible ordeal, including my mother.

KitFox

6:34 PM

Or they are worried about the cootches getting all stretched out.

Cerberus

Perhaps they exaggerate.

KitFox

If they had medical intervention, it probably was.

The things hospitals do to "rescue" women from childbirth are really awful.

And I mentioned the whole judgementally-about-this-whole-thing, yeah?

They obviously were doing it wrong.

aedia λ

It sounds like, from what I gather, that as soon as they start to give you drugs (pitocin?) because they think you're not doing it right/fast enough, it makes it harder to actually give birth and more likely for a c-section.

KitFox

Yes. And it makes it much more painful.

Because pitocin just makes your uterus contract harder.

aedia λ

Yet it also sounds like it's still pretty normal to just make women labor on their back for a little while and then be like "ok not fast enough time to induce".

KitFox

6:38 PM

Which is painful like cramps, but hardly awful, except that now you are pushing the baby hard up against a cervix that hasn't fully dilated.

Which really, really hurts.

@aediaλ The nurses all laughed at me. They shut up about it after I delivered.

Oh, and let's not forget the "we're going to cut your vagina so that it doesn't tear."

Also, pitocin slows down labor.

aedia λ

I watched a whole lot of hippie propaganda and some terrible movies about childbirth a while back and I feel like I got a lot different stuff out of it that what I read from other women, because the consensus on a lot of forums and such was way skewed toward omg teh homebirth is so natural and safe and I was like, uh, I have medical problems and I definitely like modern medicine in general and want to be at a hospital, I just now know about all sorts of stuff to refuse...

KitFox

@aediaλ Exactly! There was no way in hell I was doing a homebirth, but I also didn't feel like I needed to be drugged up and practically have an operation in order to give birth.

aedia λ

I had no idea it was so common for births to get converted to c-section because the woman basically is just taking too long for other people, but the stats are kind of frightening.

KitFox

I know. It's ridiculous.

And the number of women who elect to have a c-section just to avoid childbirth is really shocking.

Anyway, if you do have a baby, I highly recommend a nurse midwife.

I loved mine. She was teh awesumest.

She had privileges at the hospital, and so she did a few things to keep them happy, but mostly we just did our thing.

No IV, no episeotomy, no other weird shit.

The second time was pretty funny, actually.

Cerberus

@KitFox Noted!

aedia λ

6:46 PM

Omg yeah. I definitely don't want an IV in me unless there is actually anything wrong with me.

Cerberus

@KitFox I heard it's standard for women in Brazil to have a c-section.

aedia λ

@KitFox We're planning, but it's complicated.

KitFox

I got to the hospital about an hour before she did, refused all the usual stuff. The nurses said stuff like "well, it would be best to get that done before she gets her, so we don't have to do it then."

Cerberus

@aediaλ Oh! Good luck.

KitFox

She walked in, and literally fifteen minutes later I was holding my second-born son.

aedia λ

6:47 PM

Haha sweet!

KitFox

@aediaλ The conception part or the carrying part if you don't mind me asking?

She was going to check in at the nurses' station and I told her she'd better not go, because I was ready to start pushing.

I'm not even sure if she got her gloves on after she washed her hands.

The funniest part was that she presented him to me and he was dark purple, and I was confused, trying to figure out how my baby was black.

My mental reaction was "Oh, she's got the wrong one. That one is black."

Mahnax

@KitFox My mother was a doula.

Cerberus

Haha you racist!

KitFox

Not racist! I just couldn't figure it out.

aedia λ

@KitFox I don't mind, but Chatzy would be better...

KitFox

6:54 PM

@aediaλ Oh sure. Of course.

Cerberus

@KitFox Kidding!

KitFox

Ah, baby stories.

Now for baby pics.

Wait. I don't think I have any new ones.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Well, my wife wanted to do a "natural" childbirth but she opted for an epidural, and she says it was great. In Canada they typically don't promote C-sections and discourage C-sections "for convenience", but they do give everyone an IV, with just fluid, plus that's how they administer all the drugs if you need them.

KitFox

I've heard they give gay couples their first baby for free too.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

But aside from the mandatory IV and the ... whatever that cutting is called, the normal course of childbirth is typically very natural.

KitFox

7:02 PM

Everything is nice in Canada.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Episiotomy.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox perhaps? But that doesn't happen in the maternity ward, typically.

@KitFox right.

Matt Эллен

@KitFox makes notes

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I suppose it will also vary depending on which hospital you go to.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus this Tor talk is really interesting!

Two knee shans :D

Robusto

@MrShinyandNew安宇 It's called an episiotomy.

It's done so that the vagina doesn't tear in a location that can't be controlled easily.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

7:04 PM

For example, at the hospital we used, they have like a 98% rate of epidurals, because there is an anesthesiologist in the maternity ward all the time. So everyone that wants one gets one.

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Yeah they're pretty interesting people!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Robusto yeah, they were saying that it heals faster too.

KitFox

It's a bunch of bull.

Cerberus

@MattЭллен And Lib Ee Yens!

Matt Эллен

hehehe

KitFox

7:05 PM

They cut through four layers of tissue to prevent the possibility of a single layer tear.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox in many cases that possibility is pretty much a certainty

KitFox

For something that can be prevented easily through good prenatal preparation.

Robusto

My wife had epidurals both times. The pediatrician called it "the smile" ... as in "If her contractions start to go away we might have to unhook the smile."

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox Not all women are built to the same dimensions. Anyway, it did not appear to be a problem for my wife.

KitFox

No, but tissue can be stretched, which is all that is required.

I had a little tearing, but not much and only the first time.

Robusto

7:08 PM

One woman's description of childbirth was pretty intimidating: "Imagine if you had to shit a watermelon. How would that make you feel?"

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox Well, all I'm saying is, the doctors are aware that many women don't want an episiotomy. So, I think they do exercise judgement that is based on scientific findings in performing them. At least, that's my impression of the doctors here.

KitFox

8 mins ago, by KitFox

Everything is nice in Canada.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

The days of childbirth being equated with surgery seem to be over. My mom gave birth in an OR. And the public health nurse was recommending that she sterilize her nipples before breastfeeding.

Matt Эллен

mmmm, TCP flavoured nipples

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

At the hospital where my kids were born, they even had birthing tubs for women who want to give birth in water (why they would do that, I have no idea... but hey. whatever.)

@MattЭллен Transmission Control Protocol hadn't even been invented then.

Robusto

7:13 PM

@MrShinyandNew安宇 With boiling water? Ouch.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Robusto yeah that's what I wondered. I guess it was supposed to be rubbing alcohol. As if breastfeeding wasn't hard enough.

Robusto

It's idiotic anyway. Kids are too protected from germs. They need to build up their immune systems.

KitFox

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Oh, envy. It is so much more comfortable in warm water.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Robusto yeah, doctors know that NOW

Anyway, I recommend all nice, smart people move to Canada, we have nice birthing rooms in hospitals.

And gay marriage. For those who are into that. And despite those who aren't.

Robusto

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Nah, don't say that. Ann Coulter already thinks we should invade Canada. And that's a fake "future" headline in the game Fallout 3, IIRC.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

7:17 PM

@Robusto Ooh, Ann Coulter... yeah she came here once. wasn't a good thing. I did say all nice, smart people, after all.

Canada's birth-rate is falling. So immigration is the thing. As it ever was, here.

KitFox

OK, I need some help.

I have a user who emailed me back in the middle of January asking me for help with something.

It was a procedural question, so I forwarded it to the project lead and asked him to figure it out.

She just emailed me to tell me that she hadn't heard anything and wants to know what she should do.

How should I respond?

My boss was surprisingly unhelpful.

Matt Эллен

reply to her, copy in your project lead asking what he's done.

or email your project lead asking about it, and forward his response to her

user19161

@MattЭллен Good thinking!

Matt Эллен

that way she knows who to contact next time

hi @JasperLoy :)

user19161

7:33 PM

@MattЭллен I noticed you got the electorate badge. It must have been because you upvoted someone's questions!

Matt Эллен

@JasperLoy maybe so! :D

KitFox

@MattЭллен Oh, I should have mentioned that I copied her when I forwarded it, and she replied to the forwarded message and copied him on it.

Matt Эллен

I see

user19161

@KitFox Well, it seems all of you are going in circles then. But really who can help her?

KitFox

@JasperLoy My project lead, who has done nothing.

user19161

7:35 PM

@KitFox If your answer is right, then speak to your leader about it in person.

KitFox

He's not here.

user19161

Then email him and speak to him asap.

user19161

But if someone else can help then you should go to that other person.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So she knows that he's responsible for it, but she's come back to you

user19161

So just wait. Sometimes we have to wait in life.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

7:37 PM

or, at least, she knows that you think he's responsible for it. She maybe isn't sure because he never replied.

aedia λ

@KitFox Email him with the exclamation point urgent thingie in Outlook and capital letters in the subject and bright red in the message body. That'll be fun at least.

user19161

@aediaλ THAT LOOKS LIKE SHOUTING!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Send him a jack-in-the-box with a post-it-note on the "jack" asking him to deal with it.

KitFox

I did consider forwarding it to his project manager.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Videotape his reaction and post it on youtube.

KitFox

7:38 PM

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Yes.

user19161

@MrShinyandNew安宇 No way!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Have you followed up with your project lead yet?

KitFox

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Well, this is probably the most likely thing.

@MrShinyandNew安宇 No. I just got the email. This is what I'm trying to figure out.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I'd say, if you think he will actually deal with it, follow up with him, phrase it as a reminder if you want to be tactful, or a request/command if you want to be forceful.

Going over his head will make him mad. But it could be necessary; is the customer worth it? Can you turn this to your advantage?

user19161

Or just state the situation as it is, objectively and without judgement.

KitFox

7:41 PM

@MrShinyandNew安宇 Nah, I can't do that. It would be bad. That is strictly a nuclear option.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Or if you talking to the project lead is a waste of time, tell the customer that she should try to get in touch with him.

KitFox

@MrShinyandNew安宇 That's a good idea. I can pretend that I didn't notice that she copied him on her email to me.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Yeah, my first choice would be to just follow up with him.

KitFox

1

Q: Why some questions are written in this funny way?

There, I did it myself. Instead of asking "Why are some questions written in this funny way?", I produced what strikes me as bad english ever so often: Questions that are formed by starting out with "Why" (or other interrogative words), followed by what seems to be a normal subject-verb-object se...

Why we don't put question marks at the end of every sentence that begins with why.

user19161

Her question reminds me of how I like to write titles on SE posts.

user19161

7:44 PM

Titles are not meant to be complete sentences.

user19161

But at the same time they have to be sufficiently descriptive of the body which should be self-contained.

user19161

I have followed this principle in my edits.

aedia λ

@KitFox That question is confusing, but it is true that that question order can be grammatical in AAVE

search for "question order" in here for example

KitFox

True, but the OP is not asking about that.

The OP is confused, and thinks that every sentence that starts with a question word must be a question.

aedia λ

Somebody needs to tell them only questions are questions

KitFox

7:50 PM

The proper answer probably ought to point out that it is phrasal, and that the elision is of "That is why..."

And that titles and headlines follow their own set of rules.

aedia λ

Ack! I know I made a new thing! Did you eat my new thing, internet? I just had you a second ago...

user19161

@aediaλ What new thing? A highlighter again?

Cerberus

> One of the big problems is that Western corporations ask Cisco etc. to develop censoring and spying software to use on their own employees, because then Cisco goes on to say, "well, we have this software anyway, let's sell it to Iran as well". So Western corporations are stimulating censorship all over the world. <slightly paraphrased>

youtube.com/…

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox I think the OP is confused about OTHER PEOPLE doing that.

I see this phenomenon a lot in foreign speakers.

and Indian English speakers.

aedia λ

I'm not sure what we're talking about but I want some if it's coffee

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

7:59 PM

frack yeah

KitFox

proffers coffee