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4:33 AM
@Rmano Thanks again for the hint, see topanswers.xyz/tex?q=1518.
 
 
1 hour later…
6:00 AM
@Dr.ManuelKuehner you're welcome!
 
6:58 AM
@PauloCereda actually she used Linux before I did (her father's fault), but since she's not computer-versed herself, she never bothered setting up a Linux on her new Laptop herself. But Windows was failing so much lately that it became close to unusable (wasn't able to connect to wi-fi every other day, for example).
@Rmano would've been just one or two clicks (the import feature...).
 
 
1 hour later…
8:05 AM
@Skillmon ooh
 
8:21 AM
@Skillmon mum started to use a computer and she has a Fedora install + Cinnamon. :)
 
@PauloCereda obviously, she decided to use this herself... :)
 
@Skillmon ooh :)
@Skillmon she never used computers before, so it was a good approach to show her a good OS from start. :)
 
@PauloCereda agreed. Though I prefer KDE over Cinnamon, if it has to be one of those big desktop environments :)
 
@Skillmon ooh KDE
 
yo'
@Skillmon oh greetings to her!
 
8:29 AM
@Skillmon You're more of an i3 person or why are they big to you?
 
@yo' why should I greet @PauloCereda's mum? :)
@TeXnician on my own machines I run Awesome WM (but close enough for a guess)
 
@Skillmon ooh mum likes rabbits :)
 
@PauloCereda with pepper cream sauce?
 
@Skillmon Alright, awesome and i3 are both very minimalist. I guess, nearly every non-tiling system has to be big then :D
 
@yo' "Oh Tom! Is he and his family well? What a lovely bloke! Send him my greetings to him!"
 
8:31 AM
@TeXnician obviously :)
 
@Skillmon oh no
@Skillmon mum thinks they are cute and cuddly and soft
I won't show your avatar to her, though :)
@TeXnician ooh Intel
 
@PauloCereda :)
 
(I know it's the window manager and not the processor, but I need to be the resident idiot)
For those running Gnome 3, there's an extension named Material Shell. I ought to try it soon.
 
yo'
8:48 AM
@Skillmon oh misclicked :( sorry
@PauloCereda awww
 
 
2 hours later…
10:52 AM
@TeXnician thanks again for encouraging Manjaro Linux. Installation was surprisingly straight forward and the system was running in no time.
 
@Skillmon Glad to hear that. Installation of an Arch-based distro is one of the main selling points ;)
 
@Skillmon ooh advanced rabbit skills
I helped too
 
@TeXnician yes, but comparing to my last Arch Linux installation, it took zero time (but to be fair, my last time installing Arch was trying a new setup for me, with a different encryption setup than I used before, so I took much time to just read stuff). Maybe I'll do it again today (yesterday I didn't set up a disk encryption, but that was a mistake maybe)
 
@Skillmon Oh, yes, encryption is a must for laptops. Good that most Linux installers nowadays have proper options for LUKS.
 
@TeXnician encrypt...what? I don't even have a password :p
 
11:03 AM
@Plergux on a mobile device?
 
@Skillmon on anything really
 
@Plergux Do you sometimes carry your laptop with you (outside)?
@Plergux Oh my :D
 
@Plergux ooh.
 
@TeXnician yes.
 
@Plergux on my Laptop I have a fully encrypted disk with a password that is long, plus a user password that is roughly half as long, and a different root password, that is roughly as long as the user password...
 
11:06 AM
@Skillmon mmeeeaahhh... I can't do that. I'd be locked out after five minutes because I've forgotten all of them. :|
 
@Plergux did I mention that it isn't even bootable without a properly configured USB-stick... :)
 
123456 :)
 
@Skillmon jeeez... I would lose that, like, in no time XD (or drop it in my coffeee XD)
@PhelypeOleinik "Incredible! I've got the same combination on my luggage!"
 
@PhelypeOleinik your password must contain at least one uppercase letter, one lowercase letter, and a number, and be at least 8 symbols long.
@Plergux Spaceballs!
 
@Plergux :)
 
11:10 AM
@Skillmon In which case I use the password I got for uni ten years ago and managed to memorise :p
 
Which reminds me of how stupid my online banking is. The bank does only allow 5 symbols in the password...
 
@Skillmon MrComplexPassword123
 
@PhelypeOleinik ABCabc123
@PhelypeOleinik a friend of mine used to have the password "1234567890"
(and yes, I knew his password, and he knew I knew)
 
@Skillmon What really annoys me are websites that the password “must be up to 8 characters long” (I'm looking at you Brazilian government websites!)
 
@PhelypeOleinik well. Online Banking. 5 AT MOST. It doesn't get any stupider than that.
 
11:14 AM
@Skillmon Yeah. Here banks have a 4, a 6, and an 8 digit password (for different circumstances). Numbers only
 
@Skillmon well at least your latex code is secure, even if you lose all your money, so that's OK.
 
@Skillmon 8 digits is for online banking, because it's ultra secure
 
@PhelypeOleinik ok, that's worse. At least my bank allows printable ASCII.
@PhelypeOleinik 4 digit password is for the card if you want to pay in a shop or get money from the atm.
 
@Skillmon Brazil likes to be worse at stuff :)
@Skillmon 4 is for the atm and 6 to buy stuff (and sometimes one and the other to prove you know both)
 
@PhelypeOleinik in Germany you can even pay by signature, but it is chosen somewhat randomly whether you have to sign or enter the 4 digit PIN. Never both though. And for small amounts it might even happen that you don't even have to do anything except holding the card out for a second...
(small meaning 20 € or below, iirc)
 
11:20 AM
@PauloCereda Hello Mr. Duck, have you ever updated the firmware/bios of any laptop from linux?
@PhelypeOleinik Hola :)
 
@PabloGonzálezL Never needed it. :)
@PhelypeOleinik ooh also install some trusty adware thingy
 
@PauloCereda Mmm, I have a new toy, at the first boot with win10 it updates the bios firmware (which is correct and repairs some things), I wonder if it was possible to do it directly from fedora
 
@Skillmon in the UK that got increased from £30 to £45 to avoid people having to handle anything in covid era
 
@Skillmon That would be a terrible idea. My signature never looks the same (but it always looks like a 5 year old's :)
@PabloGonzálezL Oh, hello Pablo :) How are you doing?
 
11:28 AM
@Skillmon Thanks!!!
 
@PabloGonzálezL your mileage may vary. I'd just update the BIOS under Windows after purchase and then install Linux (and never touch the BIOS again :)
 
@PhelypeOleinik Loading fedora into my new toy :)
 
@PhelypeOleinik that's OK no one looks at the signature anyway. But you can still use that mechanism when the internet is playing up and the contactless or pin verification not available.
 
@PauloCereda Oh, yes. It's like installing a virus on purpose (last time I did it, it somehow changed the permission of a folder in my computer and it kinda stopped working :)
@PabloGonzálezL You and @PauloCereda are almost convincing me to use Fedora :)
3
 
@Skillmon This is what I have done... from the official support of acer there is nothing to do from linux
 
11:30 AM
@PhelypeOleinik no, come to Arch! :)
 
@PhelypeOleinik Fedora is the way :D
 
@PhelypeOleinik SuSe!
 
@Skillmon @PabloGonzálezL @Plergux NOW FIGHT!
 
@Plergux SuSe :) the most nice
 
@Skillmon I think I'm too computer-dumb to use Arch. It seems complicated (am I wrong?)
 
11:32 AM
Nah, that's not fair.
I'd win, hands down. :p
 
@PhelypeOleinik Fedora!
 
@PhelypeOleinik Use Manjaro. It's Arch with easy installer. Afterwards it's not more complicated than any other distro ;)
 
@PhelypeOleinik ooh let's set up a chocolate eating contest
I think we all Linux people can safely say, avoid Windows like the plague. :)
 
@Plergux I used it once, but didn't like it much (probably because the computer was shitty :)
 
@PhelypeOleinik The first installation can be a headache
 
11:34 AM
@TeXnician Oh, that sounds good
 
@PauloCereda You mean it played Corona 30 years ago? Spread everywhere and stay there?
 
@TeXnician And I mute creating new pests like "filenames with spaces"
 
@PauloCereda weeeell, personally I'd say "avoid Mac like the plague" :p Windows is more like that annoying co-worker that you can't get away from but annoys the shit out of you on a daily bases. :p
@PhelypeOleinik I have an emotional attachment to SuSe. My first ever linux was SuSe 6.0 :p
 
@Plergux What's wrong with the Mac? Nice Unix-based OS ...
 
@PabloGonzálezL Oh, yes, filenames with spaces, case insensitive file systems, strange browsers (well, formerly)…
 
11:37 AM
@JosephWright well, it's not so much the OS as the associated, how shall I put it, "cult" :p
 
@Plergux It's probably good (after all it has a cute lizard as logo :). My experience was biased (read: school computers)
@TeXnician Try so hard to fix your broken browser that eventually you'll become Chrome :)
 
@PhelypeOleinik ah. Those can be annoying. There was a fairly strange situation in some computer labs at the uni here. When you arrive it's rows and rows of pristine white Macs. Then you turn them on and voila! Microsoft Windows! XD
 
@PhelypeOleinik The truth is that new "edge" is not left behind
 
@Plergux LOL Tricksy Windowses
@PabloGonzálezL It's based on Chromium, isn't it? (I read it somewhere on the internet, so it must be true)
 
@PhelypeOleinik heh heh heh...
 
11:48 AM
@PhelypeOleinik Yes, it is.
 
@TeXnician oh no
 
@Skillmon that is not a problem, as they throw you out for good if you enter the wrong password 3 times. You can't do a brute attack there.
 
@Plergux In primary school we had “Linux Educacional” (Educational Linux), and the Informatics class was playing Tux-themed games for an hour...
@PauloCereda ^^
 
@PhelypeOleinik Yes, with some modifications like the PDF reader
 
@Plergux Do you know which OS do sheep use? Baaaaaaaaaa-pple :)
@PhelypeOleinik Conectiva?
 
11:50 AM
@PauloCereda Don't know that
 
@PhelypeOleinik WAIT WHAT
@PhelypeOleinik At least Kurumin?
 
@PauloCereda Sorry /shies away
 
@PhelypeOleinik oh my
 
@PauloCereda hahahahaha!
@PhelypeOleinik nice! I just had command line windows in primary school. :p
 
@Plergux did you see my secret thingy in the secret repo thingy related to secrety sheep secret thingy?
 
11:55 AM
Nov 13 at 17:36, by Alan Munn
2 days ago, by Harald Hanche-Olsen
Mar 6 '18 at 12:20, by Paulo Cereda
We ducks are not good at keeping secrets
 
oh no
 
@PauloCereda yes, I've not looked at it closely yet. Been trying to get through six million \index{}es in my thesis. :p (and I need to fix my secret sheep secret thing!)
@PhelypeOleinik LOL
 
@Plergux there's a reference to you :)
 
@PauloCereda (O.O)
 
2 mins ago, by Phelype Oleinik
Nov 13 at 17:36, by Alan Munn
2 days ago, by Harald Hanche-Olsen
Mar 6 '18 at 12:20, by Paulo Cereda
We ducks are not good at keeping secrets
 
11:58 AM
Jun 9 at 19:33, by David Carlisle
Jan 27 at 15:06, by Phelype Oleinik
Jan 15 at 13:41, by David Carlisle
Nov 15 '19 at 9:45, by David Carlisle
Oct 28 at 22:50, by Phelype Oleinik
Aug 1 at 16:26, by Phelype Oleinik
Jul 3 at 9:43, by CarLaTeX
yesterday, by David Carlisle
Dec 12 '17 at 20:26, by Alan Munn
20 mins ago, by CarLaTeX
Dec 26 '14 at 0:17, by Faheem Mitha
I've got a feeling we had this discussion in this channel before. I'm getting a sense of deja vu.
 
YES
@PhelypeOleinik <3
 
@PauloCereda Dear stackexchange, we are getting out of room to quote the deja vu message. Please fix asap
4
 
@PhelypeOleinik See the comments in my question: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/253450/…
 
github-actions just released pgf I see (@JosephWright)
 
@PauloCereda And did they fix it?
 
12:04 PM
@PhelypeOleinik nope :)
 
@DavidCarlisle I saw :)
 
@PauloCereda “consecutiv” is Romanian, so it isn't entirely wrong
 
@PhelypeOleinik you naughty Brazilian
 
@PauloCereda QUÊ?
 
@PauloCereda you could fix it by going away for a day
 
12:06 PM
@PhelypeOleinik ó, não
@DavidCarlisle But then I won't be able to say "quack" to you every day
 
@PauloCereda good
 
@DavidCarlisle oh
@DavidCarlisle quack
 
Jan 12 '16 at 12:15, by David Carlisle
@PauloCereda finished your thesis?
@PauloCereda Psmith could do it for you
 
@DavidCarlisle oh no
@DavidCarlisle ooh I could bring him back
 
12:28 PM
@DavidCarlisle I guess that means that xelatex gets the shaded itemize balls back ;-)
 
@UlrikeFischer how have we managed all this time without them.
 
@DavidCarlisle @samcarter_preparing_for_xmas even offered a chocolate box to get them back
 
@UlrikeFischer today is a big day
 
@UlrikeFischer It was getting increasingly difficult to defend the box from the ducks who were trying to eat it - good thing a new version is coming :)
@PauloCereda What makes today big?
 
12:45 PM
@samcarter_preparing_for_xmas Cakeday! :p
 
@samcarter_preparing_for_xmas secret ducks :)
 
@PauloCereda ducks are good a keeping secrets
 
@samcarter_preparing_for_xmas we are! :)
@Plergux ooh cake
@samcarter_preparing_for_xmas ooh
 
@TeXnician if it's based on Arch, it's easier afterwards than other distros. Install once, never need to reinstall for a major update.
 
12:51 PM
@Skillmon Well, there are other rolling releases but I tend to agree ;)
 
@TeXnician other, not all other :) Of course there are other rolling release distros, but I guess Arch (and derivatives) are the most known and used among those. And the Arch wiki is just phenomenal.
 
@Skillmon Yes, the Arch wiki is really awesome. Sometimes it even helps the non-Arch users better than their distro's wiki :D
 
@PhelypeOleinik well, setting up Arch means a lot of decisions to make, as there is no definitive way. Arch gives you all the tools so that you have a free choice of what you want to run on your machine. The result is much work during the setup (including much reading), but the result is that you really know your system. If you have the time to make those decisions, I'd say it is worth it. You learn a lot about Linux on the way, if you don't, stick to more convenient automated installers [...]
 
This is e-TeX, Version 3.141592-2.1 (MiKTeX 2.4) (preloaded format=latex
2006.1.25)  19 NOV 2020 19:59
entering extended mode
**NTTest.tex
(NTTest.tex
LaTeX2e <2001/06/01>
 
@PhelypeOleinik [...] like those provided by Manjaro.
 
12:58 PM
@DavidCarlisle ^^^ from a question on d.c.t.t.
 
@UlrikeFischer latex as it should be before you all joined and broke it?
2
 
@Skillmon Oh, good to know (and “no reinstall for major update” looks really interesting). I will probably try it out before, so I can get a feeling on how complicated it is (and with no fear of screwing it up :)
 
@PhelypeOleinik Fedora is definitely version-based and their rolling release counterpart (Rawhide) is a bit risky for the end user. However, there's always distro-upgrade in which you can move from one version to another.
 
@DavidCarlisle ;-). But isn't it impressing? The format was created in 2006 and it still runs more or less (only with some color error, but this it certainly due to some wrong user input).
 
@PauloCereda I don't know why, but I've never trusted distro-upgrade (as a Ubuntu user)
@PauloCereda Not sure how that goes for other distros
 
1:06 PM
@PhelypeOleinik I think @PabloGonzálezL uses it more frequently than I do. I prefer a clean install, also as a means to clean up my stuff and start fresh everytime.
 
@PauloCereda Yeah, cleaning up is good (I always promise myself I won't clutter, and I always fail :), but it's a lot of work
 
@PhelypeOleinik Since I know what I want, my post install takes 2 hours max. :)
 
@PauloCereda Backing stuff up is a pain (mainly because of the clutter :)
 
@PhelypeOleinik :)
 
1:25 PM
@PhelypeOleinik mv /home/romano /home/oldromano --- have /home on a separate partition --- reinstall and move things back when you need it. (I have my dotfiles in ~/lib/dotfiles and linked back). I do that once every two LTS (4 years), the other one I just dist-upgrade.
(Ubuntu here)
 
@UlrikeFischer That would have the five-year warning active on format-building
 
U-boo-ntu
 
@PauloCereda I'd like to change to an arch-based thing but I am lazy --- I do not want to re-learn a package manager
 
@Rmano Come to Fedora. :)
 
@PauloCereda my process has been slackware -> redhat -> mandriva -> debian -> ubuntu... I do not know if at my age I can survive another change.
 
1:31 PM
@Rmano ooh Slackware
 
@PauloCereda yes, I jumped on it when it forked from i-do-not-remember-what. Could be 199x with small x. I remember the pile of 40-ish 3½ disks
 
@Rmano You can learn pacman syntax on ubuntu (see github.com/rami3l/pacaptr) so that you are prepared for the switch later on ;)
 
@TeXnician Arch is appealing, yes. And I have to admit that Arch Wiki is infinitely more useful than Ubuntu docs
 
@TeXnician ooh pacman is easy, we need to avoid ghosts and eat those pill thingies
3
 
@PauloCereda lol
 
1:55 PM
@Rmano Oh, I'm on Ubuntu too, though I'm stuck on 16.04 because the new Gnome desktop looks far too fancy to me (too mobile-like, with swipe things and animations fancier than the games I play), so I'm considering another distro when I stop being lazy and update :)
 
@PauloCereda linux kernel 5.10 updates for you: Linux 5.10 will offer the usual grab-bag of goodies. On the serious side, support for Amazon Web Services' Nitro Enclaves isolation technology is on track for inclusion, as is code that will mean forthcoming Intel CPUs work well with Linux. On the sillier side, the kernel will become compatible with the controller of Nintendo's Switch gaming console
 
@PauloCereda You can configure pacman (the package manager) to have loading bars resembling Pacman (the video game).
 
@PhelypeOleinik well, I admit that after a first rejection I came to like Gnome Shell quite a lot. And 20.04 is leaps and bounds better than 16.04. I upgraded from 18.04 in September without a glitch.
 
@DavidCarlisle YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES
@samcarter_preparing_for_xmas ^^
 
2:11 PM
@PauloCereda excited about Nitro Enclaves I assume?
 
@DavidCarlisle nah joy-cons :)
(joy-con is the name of the Nintendo Switch controller)
 
 
2 hours later…
3:56 PM
All this talk about Linux is making me want to use it again. I haven't used it since the very early 2000s.
 
4:14 PM
@Plergux c-- I should teach you my password technique. It's easy. Choose a longish word you can remember, and a related word or phrase or idea that nobody else is likely to associate with the word you can remember. Drop some of the letters out of the word, leaving a pattern you can either remember or figure out easily. Choose a number (it has an associated uppercase "special"). Devise a pattern that will insert the number and apply uppercase selectively. (cont'd)
(cont'd) Write down the clue and put that in a place where you won't lose it. The passwords I've created using this method have registered no lower than "strong" when submitted to a checker, and they're all exactly 8 characters long. So I'm set, as long as I don't lose my list of clues.
 
@barbarabeeton ooh clues
 
@barbarabeeton That sounds very much like something that would work, since some passwords I have been given I have actually remembered by turning them into a phrase! Funny that I never thought to do it the other way around! XD
 
@barbarabeeton So you are Sherlock Holmes and Gordon is Dr. Watson? But it's Watson that holds a cane...
 
@PauloCereda -- Yup, and I bet you can't figure out my actual passwords, even if you know the general method by which I assign them.
 
Alternative password technique: Apply NATO phonetic alphabet k times on a word and append the number of letters of the output (cf. codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/215436/…) :D
 
4:19 PM
@Plergux I would use baa as password and add a's to increase strength. :)
 
@Plergux the other way is to write the passwords in plain text on a post-it note stuck to your laptop so they are handy.....
 
@DavidCarlisle ooh or refrigerator
 
@TeXnician yipes!
 
@PauloCereda -- But it's really hard to carry a fridge when you take your laptop on an airplane.
3
 
@PauloCereda Hahahaha! Don't tempt me. :p
 
4:20 PM
@barbarabeeton ooh a flying fridge
 
@DavidCarlisle Sounds like me, only I wouldn't be able to see my laptop for post-its :p (I do carry some in my wallet :p)
 
@Plergux The number of a's could be a prime or a Fibonacci number
 
@Plergux fortunately I don't need post-its as the manufacturer kindly added the secret password already onto the lid. I don't know how they knew it was DELL
4
 
@Plergux -- What I carry in my wallet is my favorite fortune-cookie fortunes. My absolute favorite is "It's after 5 p.m., and I've run out of funny things to say."
 
@PauloCereda oooh, I like Fibonacci numbers. I crochet them a lot. :p
 
4:24 PM
@Plergux OOH
 
@DavidCarlisle LOL
 
This sheep is a national treasure
@DavidCarlisle ooh
 
@barbarabeeton hahahah! My favourite fortune cookie fortune is "Today you will mostly poo candy floss." (Sophie, Bake Off series 8) :p
 
I like the one: "ignore previous cookie."
 
@PauloCereda -- For my retirement, Don Knuth had Duane Bibby make me a drawing, and part of it was the beginning of the Fibonacci series. Don wrote an explanation of how every number in the series was relevant. It's a delight!
 
4:30 PM
@barbarabeeton ooh!
@barbarabeeton ^^ from my TUG 2018 keynote :)
 
@barbarabeeton aaaw! that's wonderful :D
 
@Plergux that will make a nice "Tywmpcf" base for a password;-)
 
@Rmano :D
 
This is my daughter's technique --- she uses phrases from movies she knows by hearts and uses the initials (adding numbers)
 
Ah, I could do that too:
-That's not the point! It's the principle of the thing!
-I can't make descisions! I'm the president!
-You got to grab life by the limbs and yank as hard as you can!
-Life is pain, highness. Anyone who tells you otherwise is selling something!
XD
 
4:35 PM
@Plergux "my name is Iñigo Montoya..." ;-)
 
@Rmano ah, yes. Or "Anybody wanna peanut!?" XD
 
Or a toast
Unless you are a waffle guy :)
 
4:47 PM
@PauloCereda Yes, the clean installation is the best, but, the upgrade that fedora provides is very good, I have used it for years and nothing to say about it, it is more comfortable than moving /home and others
My strategy is a little simpler, you need
1. The initials of the full name
2. The university registration number (I used it a lot, so I know it by heart)
3. Some of the 10 reserved characters of TeX
Then I just mix them up and that's it.
 
@PabloGonzálezL Agreed. :)
@PabloGonzálezL ooh
 
@PauloCereda It has never failed me :)
 
@PabloGonzálezL :)
 
@UlrikeFischer we broke classicthesis it seems. Now @PauloCereda will never get it finished.
 
@DavidCarlisle ooh I use memoir
 
4:51 PM
@DavidCarlisle ??
 
@PauloCereda shh. You have also finished, but that would spoil the message
 
@DavidCarlisle ooh got it
@DavidCarlisle OH NO
/quacks in despair
oh no oh no oh no
I have a thesis to write
 
@PabloGonzálezL and then I would mix them all up and lock myself out of everything XD
 
@JosephWright This:
0
Q: Classic Thesis 4.6 doesn't compile

JBachI have TeX 3.14159265 (TeX Live 2020/W32TeX) kpathsea version 6.3.2 on my pc. I downloaded Classic Thesis .zip from CTAN When I try to compile ClassicThesis.tex in Texstudio with the standard pdflatex command I get these errors: Output routine didn't use all of \box255. \include{FrontBackmatter/D...

 
et cetera and so on...
I need to resort to cry in the corner while eating chocolate
 
4:53 PM
@DavidCarlisle How's that our fault?
 
ooh chocolate
Every cloud has a silver lining
 
@DavidCarlisle Another reason why not to use somebody else's template :p
 
@JosephWright well it worked before October and hasn't changed for years, so I guess we are probably involved somewhere
 
@DavidCarlisle is this good or bad?
 
@Plergux procrastination :)
 
4:57 PM
@Plergux How does one crochet Fibonacci numbers?
 
@PauloCereda I'm a procrastination guru. :p
 
@Plergux ooh
 
@samcarter_preparing_for_xmas for example with stripes: 1 row yellow, 1 row red, 2 rows blue, 3 rows green, 5 rows yellow, 8 rows red, 13 rows blue, etc. :p
You could also do it with increases/decreases for interesting scarf/shawl shapes. :)
 
@Plergux Oh, that's a nice idea!
 
@DavidCarlisle prelim2e, but as far as I know it is already in the works.
 
5:05 PM
@UlrikeFischer never even heard of that package:-)
 
@samcarter_preparing_for_xmas :D
 
@DavidCarlisle I wrote Martin in july that it will break, and last week I got a question about it from Marei, she will repair it for Martin.
 
@UlrikeFischer thanks for answering as well
 
@UlrikeFischer ooh Marei
 
5:39 PM
@DavidCarlisle at least it has some now use, that I checked all this packages and wrote mails in the summer ;-)
 
@UlrikeFischer yes I suspected that somewhere it was using a package on your list
 
6:30 PM
ooh business shorts
 
6:52 PM
Is there any online service where one can test old versions of TeX Live (2013 or earlier)? I am trying to submit a manuscript to a publisher, and it keeps coming back and a Missing \begin{document} and no clear indication of what's wrong ... Locally it works perfectly, but I have TeX Live 2020. I'm getting desperate.
The weird thing is that the "missing \begin{document}" is in the middle of a bunch of siunitx-related messages.
 
@Szabolcs we have historic TL Docker images if they could help...
 
I knew sooner or later I'd have to learn how to use Docker ...
Let me experiment a bit more first
It seems their system hates siunitx
 
7:11 PM
@Szabolcs is it really that old (2013)? I can go back until 2018 locally, I think @JosephWright or @DavidCarlisle might keep older versions on their machines.
 
That's what the pubisher's log files say
It's clear that it's the siunitx package
I'm trying to rewrite it without that
 
@Szabolcs I found something you might find interesting :)
 
Hm?
 
@Szabolcs take a look here: tug.org/historic there you can browse some historic archives, and look what I've found: ftp.tu-chemnitz.de/pub/tug/historic/systems/texlive/2013
 
@Szabolcs overleaf goes back to 2014, so you could try this.
 
7:17 PM
The TeX Live 1996 iso is only 320.5 MB.
 
maybe I could upload a newer siunitx and hope for the best
 
@Szabolcs Sorry to disappoint, but that's unlikely to work. expl3 has evolved a lot since 2013, so the expl3 used by 2013 siunitx is very different from the 2020 expl3
 
ok, it's just a table with some S columns and \plusminus .... should be able to get rid of siunitx
Publisher could have mentioned that by "LaTeX" they meant pre-2013 LaTeX
 
ooh we could get rid of the metric system too
 
Is it possible to align on the decimal point in a table, without any packages?
 
7:31 PM
@PauloCereda And start measuring distance in multiples of the Planck length?
 
@Szabolcs by using two columns and putting the dot in as a separator using the @{.} syntax.
@Szabolcs also, there is an oldish package named dcolumn: en.wikibooks.org/wiki/LaTeX/…
 
That one I saw, but didn't dare try, out of fear of another failure. I'm adding some \phantoms to make things line up ... almost done. Now only need to figure out how to increase the inter-column spacing
\tabcolsep
 
@HaraldHanche-Olsen ooh the evil guy from SpongeBob
@HaraldHanche-Olsen oopsie, sorry, it's the other guy, probably not evil. :)
What if we need something smaller than Plankck? :)
 
7:46 PM
@PauloCereda Not likely to happen. The planck length is about 1.6E-35 meters.
 
@HaraldHanche-Olsen ooh
 
@PauloCereda The advantage is that we only need integers. No more floating point! The downside is that 64 bits is not enough.
But we should be able to do astronomy with 128 bits.
No, I take that back. But 256 bits will do.
 
@HaraldHanche-Olsen I like measuring distances I have to drive by car in pico parsec.
 
@Szabolcs everybody does that
 
@Skillmon Hmm, one ppc would be almost 31 km. Sounds good for long distances. You'll need femtoparsecs for short trips.
 
7:57 PM
@Szabolcs you could switch to dcolumn package for decimal aligned columns, that hasn't changed since the 1990s in any significant way
 
@HaraldHanche-Olsen driving to my parents takes me about 10 ppc, and from my parents to my wife's parents it's 1 ppc. A very handy unit of length for my everyday life :)
 
My copy of the latest TUGboat just arrived.
 
@Skillmon And do you have your speedometer set to show picoparsecs per fortnight, then?
 
@Skillmon oldish, hmph. standard I think you meant (it's part of the core required distribution:-)
 
@DavidCarlisle well, if my name was @DavidCarlisle all my packages would be in the core required distribution as well, but I'm not that selfish! :P
 
8:00 PM
@Skillmon not all of them
 
@HaraldHanche-Olsen that would be unhandy. Is there some more-or-less standard measurement of time equalling 3 hours?
@HaraldHanche-Olsen or even better, some unit of time equalling roughly 30.857 hours? That would be perfect... :)
 
@Skillmon Three hours, that would be about a siesta?
 
@HaraldHanche-Olsen then, let's change our speedometers to show ppc per 10 siestas.
system uptime comparison. Mine is currently running for 44days, 11 hours, 33 minutes, and 30 seconds.
 
8:15 PM
@Skillmon only 17:13:48 up 5 days, 8:22 because we had a power outage last week, otherwise it would be more or less a month, I think
 
8:40 PM
@DavidCarlisle it is probably not a good idea to ask how many not ;-)
 
9:00 PM
@UlrikeFischer how would you manage without colortbl tables in primary colours.
 
@JosephWright Is there a particular reason for expl3's filename parsing turning everything into a string, or is it just because it's the reasonable thing to do?
 
@DavidCarlisle is that the only one????
 
@UlrikeFischer well no, these at least github.com/davidcarlisle/dpctex
 
@DavidCarlisle I thought that there is quite a number ;-) The ctan list looks quite impressive.
@PhelypeOleinik looking at this xkeyval problem? It is really quite a problem.
 
@UlrikeFischer good job ctan doesn't also list all the ones adopted anonymously under the names of made up groups:-)
 
9:09 PM
@UlrikeFischer Indeed! I managed to solve it with a de-\detokenize, but it gets things like \input{\jobname-test} with the wrong catcode, so I'd rather avoid unnecessary catcode changes at all
 
@DavidCarlisle yes, like this my list of packages still looks manageable ;-)
 
@UlrikeFischer Even though that's very unlikely to bite someone
 
@PhelypeOleinik well I thought the logical thing would be to give \@clsextension catcode 12 too, but I'm not sure if I would dare to do it, I bet someone is testing against it somewhere.
 
@PhelypeOleinik isn't the thing to do to store the cls and sty extensions as catcode 12 that's what I had to do when adding utf8 support for graphics filenames the filenames got stringified so I had to do the same for the default extensions
as @UlrikeFischer just said
 
@UlrikeFischer I thought so too, but I'll let you guess :)
 
9:13 PM
@PhelypeOleinik ?
 
@UlrikeFischer besides other packages also do \def\pkg@someextension{tfm} and use \filename@parse on the file list and all goes wrong
 
@PhelypeOleinik you can allow the public documented macros to be catcode11 but string them before using them in the internal comparison
 
@DavidCarlisle so some extension are already catcode 12?
 
@UlrikeFischer @PhelypeOleinik \edef\Gin@gzext{\detokenize{gz}} and \edef\Gin@extensions{\detokenize\expandafter{\Gin@extensions}}%
@PhelypeOleinik we ended up with catcode 12 filenames supporting UTF-8 and not wanting the inputenc utf8 active characters to blow up
 
@DavidCarlisle The problem is not comparison in the kernel (I already use \str_if_eq:nnTF for that). The problem are packages that dissect \@filelist (with code similar to this) and use that to compare with \@clsextension. I have to make sure it gets catcode 11 in \@filelist
 
9:18 PM
@PhelypeOleinik well as I say for graphics i went the other way and forced the user-supplied default extensions to be resaved as catcode 12
@PhelypeOleinik what catcodes would you put in filelist for a filename like ένα.δύο
 
@DavidCarlisle I think saving in \@clsextension cls with catcode 12 is the right thing. But I doubt one can do as a patch release. It is bound to break some package, so it should probably be in a dev release first.
 
@DavidCarlisle I'd have to either force everything catcode 12 or leave everything 11. The problem with forcing catcode 12 is that things like this would break:
    \tl_if_in:NnT \@filelist {.cls} { \normalsize }
From fontspec ^^
@DavidCarlisle That would be left as catcode 12, but probably nobody is looking for that in a file extension
 
@PhelypeOleinik blame Will? Probably should take to team list so all team in loop
 
@DavidCarlisle Sure, I'm writing right now
@DavidCarlisle (to the team, not Will this time :)
 
10:07 PM
@PhelypeOleinik Mainly as it seemed reasonable and consistent with the idea of the str type
@Szabolcs I released the first version in 2009 ....
 
10:48 PM
@UlrikeFischer I see you're getting all modern, suggesting youtube links in comments :)
 
@PhelypeOleinik it is much faster than writing it all down ;-)
 

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