8:09 AM
quack

8:29 AM
@PauloCereda since @DavidCarlisle takes so long, but I want to be sure you know the time of the day: Breakfast!

@Skillmon oh no
@Skillmon /giggles with mr. rabbit

Hello @CarLaTeX!

@Skillmon @LaTeXereXeTaL, don't listen to @Skillmon, never try a pineapple pizza!
@Skillmon Hello! :P

@CarLaTeX who could've known he would say he loves it? I thought he'd say: "Yes, I once tried and realised I hate it. That's not pizza and never should've been named pizza!"

@Skillmon That's sure, no need to try!

8:35 AM
@CarLaTeX there are rabbits and other beings out there who say you should try everything before you can say you don't like it.

@Skillmon They are not talking about pineapple pizza

8:56 AM
@Skillmon Absolutely! \loves jellyfish salad, pigs trotters, and octopus tentcles :p
@CarLaTeX ... and sheep face and baby potato cheese fondue... :p

1 hour later…
10:03 AM
ooh food

10:34 AM
My new Thunderbird icon looks like one of those Legendary Pokémon birds
The ice flying bird bloke

11:26 AM
@PauloCereda Arktos in the German version, iirc.
And with great names in the Japanese and the English version:
Articuno (en) - Freezer (jap)

@Skillmon ooh
@Skillmon I heard that the three birds are also a mention to numbers in Spanish: ArticUNO, ZapDOS and MolTRES.

@Plergux :)

11:54 AM
@DavidCarlisle quack <3

12:15 PM
FEDORA 33 IS AWESOME

@PauloCereda So is Gentoo.

@AlexG ooh

12:50 PM
@PauloCereda Ooh, that makes sense. And of course Arktos is the first!

@Skillmon ooh :)

1 hour later…
2:14 PM
@Plergux -- But, but, ... Octopus tentacles are good, though I feel rather guilty eating them, since octopi are intelligent and wily creatures. (I'm referring to small octopi for eating. Prepared the Portuguese way, with plenty of garlic.)

ooh octoπ

@barbarabeeton Just remember that the octopus would gladly eat you, given the opportunity.
2

@HaraldHanche-Olsen so would cats :p

@HaraldHanche-Olsen -- That's the large ones. I did say small.

@barbarabeeton Well, I don't know what you call "small" but the tentacles I bought at Costco were around 1 and a half foot. :p

2:24 PM
@Plergux Hey, I can read that without the help of google translate! (Not too surprising perhaps, given that the Iceland was settled by Norwegians about a thousand years ago.)
@barbarabeeton The small ones dream of becoming large ones so they can eat us.

@HaraldHanche-Olsen Well, Danes. :p

@Plergux Hmm, more Norwegians than Danes, I thought?

@Plergux -- That's still small. Tentacle diameter greater than about 2 cm is getting too large.

@HaraldHanche-Olsen Well, depends on how you define them. You can equate "Norse" with "Norwegian" or you can go by what the sagas say where, among other things, it says those who moved to Iceland spoke "the Danish tongue". And on top of that, about half of Icelanders are descended from Celtic slaves picked up on the way anyway, so the whole "norwegian" thing is wearing a little thin. :p
@barbarabeeton ok. :) I'm no octopus expert. All I know is that the ones that you can eat are delicious and a dumbo octopus is just about the cutest thing on the planet. :p

@Plergux I admit I haven't read any sagas for a long while. I wonder if the Danish tongue and what they spoke in Norway at the time were all that different? The language called “old Norse” is called “gammelnorsk” in Norway, for whatever reason. Maybe national pride, maybe there is more substance to it. This seems to warrant some study.

2:32 PM
@Plergux -- Then we agree. (What's your culinary opinion on cod cheeks -- when you can get them?)

@barbarabeeton Somehow, I never heard of those. But cod tongue is considered a delicacy in Norway. Kids up north used to make a good amount of money cutting them out from the incoming catch.
@Plergux Swedes too, if we are to be scrupulously honest about it.

@HaraldHanche-Olsen yup. It's all the same soup. :p
@barbarabeeton Omnomnomnom! Actually, I don't think I've ever had fish I didn't like. I didn't much like salt fish when I was little, but I love it now. Especially with suet. :p

\documentclass{article}
\usepackage{amssymb}
\begin{document}
\textsuperscript{a} % comment this out to see the triangle disappear
\blacktriangleright
\end{document}
Seriously weird: compile with LuaTeX, and you get the black triangle; comment out the \textsuperscript line and you get no triangle but no error. Compile with other engines, get Missing $inserted. What's going on here? ooh Swedes I read sweets Sorry 2:45 PM @PauloCereda XD @HaraldHanche-Olsen GRAY GOOSE @Plergux <3 @AlanMunn well it disappears because the math fonts are not setup (the textsuperscript does this). @UlrikeFischer It seems a very odd behaviour though. Hi all! @AlanMunn the main question is why it doesn't complain about the missing math mode. 2:49 PM ooh Pat @topskip 'ello! :) @UlrikeFischer Yes indeed, but I still think that having something work dependent on a prior command that is weird too. @topskip Hi! @topskip I owe you a beer, although I am not sure it's safe to owe beers to Germans. :) @PauloCereda uh uh, I want a beer as well! @Skillmon ooh 2:51 PM @PauloCereda I prefer a Corona, if possible :-) One for mr. rabbit too @topskip ooh :D @PauloCereda grågås? @AlanMunn it isn't dependant on a previous command. It simply expects to be inside math (which would setup the fonts). $\blacktriangleright$ works fine. @HaraldHanche-Olsen ooh I actually have grå anka in my thesis. :) I think it's Swedish @UlrikeFischer Yes of course, but what I mean is why the \textsuperscript should also do the job it seems. 2:53 PM @PauloCereda indeed it is @HaraldHanche-Olsen ooh @AlanMunn \textsuperscript does internally$^1$so it calls the mathmode once, and from there on it works. You could also use$a\$ .

@UlrikeFischer -- But that's the problem -- \textsuperscript is "leaking". @AlanMunn -- leave a blank line and see if there's a complaint. If math mode is on, there should be.

@PauloCereda Donald Duck is Kalle Anka in Swedish. And Anders And in Danish. And Donald Duck in Norwegian. Go figure.

@barbarabeeton No, that doesn't change anything. Nor does putting the triangle inside {..}. So it's not leaking in that sense. But it leaves some persistent state I guess.

2:57 PM
@Plergux -- I think you would like hamachi kama (yellowtail collar). Sadly, it's become unavailable here during the pandemic, though I can't see why that would be related.
@AlanMunn -- You already said it -- weird.

@barbarabeeton @UlrikeFischer It's also not all math symbols. e.g. \leftarrow works, but \langle and \rangle don't.

@barbarabeeton no, it simply calls \check@mathfonts and this initialize the math fonts. That is quite normal. The main question is why lualatex doesn't error is \mathchar is used outside math.
\documentclass{article}
\usepackage{amssymb}
\begin{document}
missing: \mathchar"3449 \blacktriangleright

there: \makeatletter \check@mathfonts \makeatother
\mathchar"3449  \blacktriangleright

\end{document}

@UlrikeFischer -- I'd run into something similar (initialization) with plain TeX years ago, but the lack of the "not currently in math mode" I've never seen before. A bug, clearly.
Oh joy, oh rapture. We now have tropical storm theta. At least it's headed east (for now). What do they do when they run out of Greek letters? Hebrew?

@barbarabeeton well it is documentated: 7.8.3 Allowed math commands in non-math modes, so it is probably a feature and not a bug.

@UlrikeFischer -- Okay, but what about @AlanMunn's report that not all math characters are handled in the same way?

3:13 PM
@barbarabeeton \langle is defined with \delimiter, but only \mathchar and \Umathchar are allowed also in text mode.

@UlrikeFischer -- Thanks. (I still think it's misguided that one "flavor" of LaTeX behaves so differently. That could wreak havoc with manuscripts submitted for publication.)

@barbarabeeton Yes, it certainly leads to an odd mixture of behaviours.

@barbarabeeton :D Something to look for and look forward too :D

@AlanMunn -- There's a good reason why Knuth insists on the "trip" test.

@barbarabeeton yes, but I check in overleaf and it has been like this for years, and nobody as far as I remember reported it until now. @AlanMunn why did you saw this now?

3:19 PM
@Plergux -- It's absolutely yummy, and I miss it terribly. it's also lots of fun to take it apart with chopsticks.

@barbarabeeton ooooh! puzzlefish :p

@UlrikeFischer I was creating a MWE to answer a question, and since I always use luatex it didn't give me the error I expected.

@HaraldHanche-Olsen ooh

@HaraldHanche-Olsen XD Andrés Önd in Icelandic. Or just Anders And. For a long time we only had the Danish version.

@Plergux ooh

3:24 PM
@PauloCereda Since learning Danish is part of the mandatory education kids would learn their Danish from the Donald Duck comics. Since we don't have that any more my kid has to make do with Kaptejn Underhyler and SvampeBob Firkant on Netflix XD

@Plergux OMG SvampeBob

@Plergux -- I suspect you would also like scrapple. Yesterday was "national scrapple day": nationaldaycalendar.com/national-scrapple-day-november-9 I think the making of scrapple may be just as appetizing as the making of sausage -- like the making of laws, it's not necessarily something you'd want to watch.

@barbarabeeton For a moment I read scrabble
ooh triple word

@PauloCereda -- That's "squabble".

@samcarter_preparing_for_xmas did you enjoy my commit message? :)

3:27 PM
@Plergux I think Icelandic people speak better Danish than the Danes do. I can actually understand what they're saying.

@barbarabeeton ooh an altercation
Okay, since we are speaking of nations:

@barbarabeeton Or haggis? I actually thought that was quite good, but I haven't seen it being prepared.

Ooooh... that looks awesome. And I come from the Icelandic country side making sviðasulta and slátur (which is a kind of a haggis), so I don't think scrabble holds any threat for me :p

@HaraldHanche-Olsen isn't this the thingy in which you put thingies inside the inners of a sheep thingy and then the thingy is prepared?

3:29 PM
@HaraldHanche-Olsen Heh heh heh... yes, we're not in as much of a hurry :p

@HaraldHanche-Olsen -- Likewise. Are you familiar with Anna Russell's "free range haggis"? Anything by Anna Russell is worth a listen.

@PauloCereda XD Love it in one of the versions of this I saw/heard where Michael is talking about how they had to start announcing that it was a joke so they wouldn't get nutcases coming to them afterwards being all like "OMG yes! so true!" XD

@Plergux ooh I love that version!

@Plergux -- The really fun part is that apparently neither Flanders nor Swann is English.

@AlanMunn it's a unicode-math feature, it makes most cmath symbols available in text mode (not really by design)

3:36 PM
@barbarabeeton No. Worse, I had to look up Anna Russell. I couldn't find her free range haggis anywhere, though.

ooh there's wiskey in the jar?

@barbarabeeton XD

:set irish-mode on

@PauloCereda sorry, too busy peeking at images to reply :D

@samcarter_preparing_for_xmas ooh <3

3:39 PM
@HaraldHanche-Olsen -- I've forgotten in which of her monologues it occurs. Try her summary of Wagner's "Ring". I think that's what she's known best for.

@samcarter_preparing_for_xmas please correct my GUI drawing, I don't remember anything of that software. :)
OOH LET'S GO

@PauloCereda Looks fine to me :D

@samcarter_preparing_for_xmas phew! :)
@samcarter_preparing_for_xmas I need to gather people now. :)

This morning I had a zoom call and a very big ginger cat walked in front of the camera of one of the participants :D

@barbarabeeton Anna Russel seems like a wonderful mixture of Viktor Borge and Patricia Routledge XD

3:42 PM

@samcarter_preparing_for_xmas ooh

@PauloCereda The pandemic has also advantages :D

@samcarter_preparing_for_xmas it does. :)

@Plergux -- Good description. We were fortunate to see Victor Borge in person at the Newport Music Festival; he was a good friend of the festival manager. Borge's son was also on the festival staff for some years. (But the festival is now under new management, and it's not the same.)

3:58 PM
@barbarabeeton Lucky you! :) It's sad when things move away from you. But fortunately one can always find old gems to warm the heart :p youtube.com/watch?v=ReSlfsw5iJY

@Plergux YES VICTOR BORGE
:D
@barbarabeeton Did you see him live?! WOW
I want to thank my parents for making this evening possible... and all my children for making it NECESSARY.

@Plergux -- Delicious! Thank you!

4:46 PM
@barbarabeeton Not quite. Flanders was English, Swann was Welsh.
@DavidCarlisle So is unicode-math built-in to LuaTeX (but not XeTeX)?

@DavidCarlisle no, you get this also without unicode-math. \mathchar doesn't error in lualatex when used in text mode.

@samcarter_preparing_for_xmas @UlrikeFischer see my commit, hope you like it :)

@PauloCereda ;-)

@UlrikeFischer ooh

5:01 PM
@AlanMunn -- Oops! Thanks for correction.

@PauloCereda Gorgeous!

@UlrikeFischer What I don't understand though is why \check@mathfonts requires entering mathmode to work rather than being called automatically if that's the intended behaviour. It's this fact that leads to the weird 'dependent on a previous command' behaviour that I noted. If it's an intended feature, it shouldn't have to depend on having entered mathmode once to work.

@samcarter_preparing_for_xmas <3
@AlanMunn I miss cfr :(

@PauloCereda I guess she's busy or fed up with us. :(

@AlanMunn indeed...

5:08 PM
@PauloCereda One of the few people other than Sašo who has truly mastered forest.

@UlrikeFischer ah yes, I was thinking of unicode-math making \alpha just the character 𝛼 not a \mathchar so it works in text mode.

@AlanMunn latex tries very hard not to setup math fonts which are not needed. Don't forget that the number of math fonts is very restricted (well in luatex one probably don't need to care, so could simply call it unconditionally).

@AlanMunn ^

@AlanMunn agreed! And she was trying to teach me Welsh... I only know Cymru and hwyaden

@UlrikeFischer @DavidCarlisle Well in this case it would seem like a good idea since the behaviour is non-deterministic, IMO.

5:13 PM
@PauloCereda mae hwyaid yn dda i'n bwyta

@DavidCarlisle oh no

@PauloCereda beth oeddech chi'n ei ddisgwyl?

@DavidCarlisle oh no

5:32 PM
@Plergux you should check the code too, hope you enjoy it. :)

@PauloCereda I will a little later. I'm not allowed messing about until after dinner :p

@Plergux oh no
Oopsie, sorry

@MarcelKrüger how can one test which renderer the current font uses?

Dinner is... a trigger word
:)

@PauloCereda baaa...

5:36 PM
@Plergux ooh hold on
I got this
@Plergux quack

@PauloCereda All right. I'm not allowed any messing about until after supper. :p

@Plergux ooh that's supper super

@PauloCereda XD

5:59 PM
@MarcelKrüger ooh marlin

6:29 PM
@UlrikeFischer font.getfont(font.current()).specification.normal.mode probably. If it errors because the specification table doesn't exists then base is used (and the font was loaded before luaotfload). harf probably appears as plug there.
@PauloCereda Oh no, that one was supposed to remain secret for now.

@MarcelKrüger ooh I can keep a secret
We ducks are very good at keeping secrets
ooh

@MarcelKrüger there was a features missing, specification.features.normal.mode worked, and harf appeared as "harf".

@PauloCereda now rabbits are curious

@Skillmon ooh I don't know either :)

@PauloCereda Ooh no! What happened to @cfr?

6:43 PM
@Skillmon it's been a while since she was around... :(

@PauloCereda :yes, that's correct :(

@Skillmon /sobs

@PauloCereda "Last seen Oct 30 at 2:05"

@JosephWright I don't want to abuse your power, but could you mod-ping cfr in here? If we normal-ping, it probably won't reach her. :(
@Skillmon hmmm

@PauloCereda oh, modified pings

6:48 PM
@Skillmon it's a powerping. :)

@PauloCereda is that a power rangers thing?

@Skillmon ooh a megazord

7:34 PM
@PauloCereda just took a look out of curiosity, she didn't ask nor answer any question this year, and still only got 60 rep less than I did this year...

@Skillmon oh

7:48 PM
Mar 6 '18 at 12:20, by Paulo Cereda
We ducks are not good at keeping secrets

8:43 PM
Is there a version of [draft] that would ONLY apply to pdfplots?
That would REALLY help my compile time

@Canageek Apart from externalization, have you looked at tex.stackexchange.com/questions/60434/draft-mode-for-pgfplots

@TorbjørnT. wait wait, externalization sound good, I like the sound of this

@Canageek Section 7.1 in the pgfplots manual.

@TorbjørnT. Thanks
Needed that keyword to find it

9:25 PM
Huh, doesn't seem to be working even with --shell-escape
No errors, but its not producing any PDF files I can see

9:57 PM
@Canageek How did you enable the externalisation? Maybe something is missing there.

\usepackage{pgfplots} %For graphing data
\pgfplotsset
{
every tick/.append style = thin,
table/col sep = comma,
width= 0.99 \textwidth,
height= 0.99\textheight,
xlabel near ticks,
ylabel near ticks
}
\pgfkeys{/pgf/number format/set thousands separator = }
\usepgfplotslibrary{external} %TURN THIS OFF FOR FINAL VERSIONS

Do you have \tikzexternalize?

@samcarter_preparing_for_xmas Dammit, should have read the example
.or the instructions like, at all, durrrr

> Maybe Definitly something is missing there. :D

! Package tikz Error: Sorry, the system call 'pdflatex -shell-escape -halt-on-e
rror -interaction=batchmode -jobname "ThesisMasterDoc-figure0" "\def\tikzextern
alrealjob{ThesisMasterDoc}\input{ThesisMasterDoc}"' did NOT result in a usable
output file 'ThesisMasterDoc-figure0' (expected one of .pdf:.jpg:.jpeg:.png:).
Please verify that you have enabled system calls. For pdflatex, this is 'pdflat
ex -shell-escape'. Sometimes it is also named 'write 18' or something like that
. Or maybe the command simply failed? Error messages can be found in 'ThesisMas
...ummmm

10:05 PM
what does ThesisMasterDoc-figure0.log say?

OHhh, I see the error
There is a bug in a pacakge I'm useing that it fails the first time you compile, then works every tiem after that
! Missing number, treated as zero.
\__int_eval_end:
l.471 ...peroxo.{meoh,etoh,ppn},bipyChain,2bipy}.}
In chemnum

@Canageek sounds buggy :)

@Canageek Can you make an example of the chemnum bug two-pass feature?

Probalby, give me a bit

11:11 PM
@PhelypeOleinik OK, took an hour (couldn't get it to a decent MWE, so I had to strip the document down in chunks until it stopped doing the bug, then undo the last change and remove other things...it took a while)
But it turns out that I can replicate it in 5 lines
\documentclass{article}
\usepackage{chemnum}
\begin{document}
\cmpd{peroxo.meoh} \cmpd{peroxo.etoh} \cmpd{peroxo.ppn} \refcmpd{peroxo.{meoh,etoh,ppn}}
\end{document}
Weird thing? If you remove ANY Of the three \cmpd statements? It works fine. If you drop one of the terms from \refcmpd? Works fine

@Canageek Good ol' bisection method. Takes an hour to delete your thesis chunk by chunk, but does not fail ;-)
@Canageek I'll take a look (not now though)

@PhelypeOleinik YEP. The long part was deleting all the packages, as every time I'd find some command they provided I' had forgot about
@PhelypeOleinik I'm submitting it as an issue on the github as well, now that I have taken an hour to get it down to five lines.

@Canageek Been there. Done that :)
@Canageek Seems good, since it seems isolated to chemnum. And Clemens' packages are quite complex; I'd take a while to figure it out

@PhelypeOleinik There are times I wonder if I'd been better off going with mhchem and one of the older numbering packages instead of the (when I started using them) new, shiny ones

@Canageek Can't help you there. I can read the code, not the chemistry (you need @JosephWright to do both :)
@Canageek Seeing that it saves numbers in the .aux file and you get a Missing number, it seems some part of the code assumes the number is there but sees a \relax (possibly) instead

11:22 PM
@Skillmon compare with Gonzalo:-)

@PhelypeOleinik it seems not to test correctly for missing labels if this "list syntax" peroxo.{meoh,etoh,ppn} is used, it works only if one use them one by one.

@UlrikeFischer The problem seems to be for three or more when it prints the range 1a-c. One or two items also work
@UlrikeFischer Here:
\chemnum_compress_subcompounds:NNN
\l__chemnum_tmpd_seq % holds the IDs
\l__chemnum_tmpe_seq % holds the numbers
\l__chemnum_tmpc_seq % the new sequence
\l__chemnum_tmpe_seq holds the numbers, but they don't exist yet, so it should probably populate with zero or something.

11:38 PM
@PhelypeOleinik hm but he checks if the seq has more than two entries, so what is in it? But it is too late now for testing ;-)

@UlrikeFischer Three empty items, it seems
@UlrikeFischer But good night!

@UlrikeFischer Night
One of my issues with chemmacros and chemformula is they are ALMOST compatible, but not quite. So stuff I'd expect to work in \iupac because it works in \ch doesn't. Which is really annoying, as they are SO CLOSE in syntax
I can do chemformula/font-family = clm to use tabular, lining numbers in chemical formulas, since subscript oldstyle numbers just look...odd a lot of the time.
I'd like to do the same, as old style numbers look not read in stuff like 1R,2R, when they are up against capitals (but look great in things like 421 mL or 451--454), and there doesn't seem to be an equivalent option.