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12:10 AM
@UlrikeFischer it does a "standard" \@caption and the \LT@ version but "why" hard to answer, it was a while ago...
@DavidCarlisle ups. Somehow my local nameref version lost the few lines with the \@caption patch. I need to check this.
@DavidCarlisle well good that the question was asked, I messed up the removal of an old test.
3 hours later…
3:13 AM
I would appreciate if an experienced pgfplots user can have a look at tex.stackexchange.com/questions/571816.
I just learned the hard way that evil things happen when you use \lstMakeShortInline to set ! as an inline delimiter and then use color mixing notation (e.g. blue!50) in a command. Took me about 30 minutes to debug.
3 hours later…
5:59 AM
hi I m stuck in overleaf with using @misc
there are just question marks appearing
2 hours later…
7:39 AM
@PauloCereda Just in time for breakfast!
@HaraldHanche-Olsen oh no
@HaraldHanche-Olsen @DavidCarlisle has a bad influence on you
7:54 AM
@CarLaTeX At least, I don't eat pineapple pizza!
@HaraldHanche-Olsen That's good :)
@UlrikeFischer Czech cows :) tresbohemes.com/2016/04/cows-invade-prague
@yo' ooh a cow parade
@PauloCereda some of them are lovely. Like the one with the text LEVNÉ KYDY. It's in front of a bookstore called LEVNÉ KNIHY (CHEAP BOOKS) that mostly sells trash. And KYDY means RUBBISH or MUCK.
@yo' ooh
8:31 AM
@Plergux hi sheep person! <3
@yo' I think the leather spiked one is my favourite. Then again, I might be biased. :p
@PauloCereda Hi, duck person! :D
@Plergux I enjoyed that one, that's a neat idea :D
@yo' I think the monarch butterfly one was my second favourite, but again I might be biased. :p (by the Venture Brothers' Monarch :p)
I got sidetracked for a moment
8:34 AM
@PauloCereda ooooh!
Damn those clever ads
@Plergux ooh :)
@PauloCereda oh I know all of them!
@yo' OOH
@yo' Cool :D Are Czechs liquorice people? :p
@Plergux some are, yeah. but not to the Finnish level of having a licorice brandy.
8:37 AM
@yo' Yeah, Icelanders are also FInnish level liquorice people. You can buy several brands of liquorice schnapps here :p
@Plergux ah cool!
9:01 AM
@Plergux I am more in favour of svarti dauði myself.
(«Black death» for the rest of you folks.)
@HaraldHanche-Olsen Heh heh heh... I'm not a strong liquor person. I can just about manage beer. :p With one exception: Ardbeg whiskey. It's like drinking peat. Love it :p
@Plergux Ardbeg is good. So is Laphroaig. Even more peaty, I think? Re beer: I bottled 83 bottles of beer yesterday. Now they are all labeled and sitting in the basement to mature for a bit.
@HaraldHanche-Olsen I'm not sure we've tried Laphroig. We'll have to put it on our to-try list. The selection up here isn't very good whiskey wise, though the bigger stores have about six gazillion types of beer. :p Not that I'm complaining. What kind of beer is it that you make? I like sour, fruity, and malt beers the best. :)
@HaraldHanche-Olsen ooh we could sing that beer song
99 bottles of beer on the wall
99 bottles of beer
You take one down, you pass it around
oh no, advanced maths
-32,768 bottles of beer on the wall
oh no, integer beers
@Plergux So far, mostly IPA and something like a light English ale. But lately, I have started experimenting with saison. Not quite the proper style, though: Traditional saison is a rather weak Belgian beer for use by farm workers in the summer. It is weak so they can drink a lot of it and still get work done. I make it stronger, and get no work done. 8-D
@PauloCereda The negative bottles are great for sobering up in a hurry
9:14 AM
@HaraldHanche-Olsen ooh skills :)
@HaraldHanche-Olsen LOL! Those Belgians know how to brew though, don't they? :p
@Plergux They do, but they also brew some crazy stuff that I would never touch. Strawberry flavoured beer? No thanks!
@HaraldHanche-Olsen LOL! I'd be jumping for that :p
@Plergux ooh Belgians
@Plergux My brother-in-law went to Belgium on a beer pilgrimage and came home with an armload of Westvleteren stout. I got to taste it. Now that's a beer!
Unfortunately, they make a very limited amount, and you have to go there in person to buy it.
9:20 AM
@HaraldHanche-Olsen oooh! fancy :p
@Plergux I think it's about 12% alcohol. Dangerous stuff.
9:36 AM
@HaraldHanche-Olsen which means it would take me about three days to drink one :p
@Plergux It would go flat. Better share a bottle with a friend or two. The bottles are not large, though. And I remembered it wrong: It's only 10.2%, even though it has “12” in its name.
@HaraldHanche-Olsen I love the strong fruity beers like Leffe Ruby, Kriek etc.!
@HaraldHanche-Olsen uh, duh... of course it would go flat. makes no difference to me. flat beer, flat soda, cold coffee, that's me. :p
9:52 AM
@Plergux Have you tried cold brewed coffee? I haven't but I am curious. Basically, you just use a French press with cold water and let it sit overnight.
@HaraldHanche-Olsen Not cold brewed, but I've made my own iced coffee just making it regular, keeping it in the fridge for a bit and then put ice in it. :p I prefer things cold. :p
Have you tried the Coca-Cola coffee flavour? :)
@PauloCereda Me? I don't do soft drinks. Give me water if I can't have beer.
@HaraldHanche-Olsen oh
@PauloCereda That sound strange :p I prefer my Coca-Cola Coca-Cola-flavoured. :p
10:01 AM
@Plergux me too :)
10:52 AM
> Caffeine can help increase your ability to learn, understand, and remember.
11:05 AM
@PauloCereda heh heh heh... and greatly increases my chances of not sleeping. :p Not because of caffeine hyperactivity but because of caffeine indigestion :p (technically, I'm not even supposed to eat chocolate, but fat chance I'm gonna give that up. :p)
@Plergux ooh chocolate
@PauloCereda chocolate is awesome. the darker the better :p
@Plergux ooh
The chocolater, the better
^^ ooh linguistic skills
@PauloCereda heh heh heh...
@JosephWright did you see the nameref dissussion in the hyperref issue?
@UlrikeFischer Not really looked yet but I may be able to do something in the LT 4.14 code
11:48 AM
@DavidCarlisle The longtable side looks quite easy, you mainly has to store it in the multicolumn and again after it. I was now more wondering about the \text_purify side. It looks as there is a new "context" involved here. You don't want to remove all commands, only a few like \label and then store the string.
12:14 PM
@samcarter_preparing_for_xmas #pavlov :p
@Plergux "Really, George?"
12:46 PM
@UlrikeFischer Only vaguely
@JosephWright as I wrote above to David, I think we should remember this use case, when discussion the purifying stuff and the "context" question.
@UlrikeFischer I'm not sure I follow: what exactly is the 'context' we need to cover?
@Rmano I had to google that. :p These days I only see commercials on YouTube and at the movie theatre and I don't really use YouTube and it's been almost years since I've been to the movie theatre (too expensive :|).
1:05 PM
@JosephWright I meant that one here wants to purify a text (removing e.g. a \label command and other problematic commands) but not in the same way as you want to do it if one wants to produce a pdf string. gettitlestring uses a similar method than pdfstringdef, but with a different set of commands.
1:31 PM
@UlrikeFischer do the commands have to be different though? can't you always drop \label ?
@DavidCarlisle yes, you always want to drop \label. But the problem is that \text_purify drops more, e.g. \textbf:





@UlrikeFischer but now i'm confused, that is typeset material so shouldn't be passing through text_purfy at all should it?
@DavidCarlisle yes, but this means that \text_purify can not be used for nameref, as nameref tries to preserve such commands.
1:53 PM
@UlrikeFischer sounds right.
2:35 PM
@DavidCarlisle which probably means that one need to stick to gettitlestring for now. This here could work for longtable, but the caption package would need to adjust its code too (I'm not sure I understand what it is doing with longtable):


  \LT@mcol\LT@cols c{\hbox to\z@{\hss\parbox[t]\LTcapwidth{%
    \sbox\@tempboxa{#1{#2: }#3}%
2:50 PM
@UlrikeFischer thanks, not to mention caption package's ltcaption offspring.
@UlrikeFischer That's consistent with nameref now although I'm not convinced that gettitlestring is needed to be honest, it feels wrong to me. The original version just stored the original text then (like the setting of titles in toc or headings) can just locally define \label to \@gobble at the point it is used rather than trying to remove them at the point it is saved.
@DavidCarlisle ? gettitlestring is loaded by nameref. nameref uses \NR@gettitle and that is defined as
or did you mean nameref should not need it?
@UlrikeFischer yes I mean nameref shouldn't need it (it is a later addition, and I'm not convinced it's the right thing to do), although given where we are now, i agree doing the same in longtable is probably needed
@DavidCarlisle well the code says that the non-expanding version was used because of "feedback" (probably to many fragile stuff broke). But in view that much more commands are robust now, this is perhaps really no longer needed.
3:28 PM
@DavidCarlisle I think you can simply use \def\@currentlabelname{...} and not pass through \GetTitleString, nameref disables the \label command anyway. But the code currently miss to use the optional argument of caption.
3:40 PM
@UlrikeFischer meanwhile see the hyperref \tag question?, I think we ought to do better there...
@UlrikeFischer Thanks I'll try to get this working in 4.14
@DavidCarlisle you mean the equation question? No I hadn't looked yet, I was just trying to get arabic pdfcomments ...
@UlrikeFischer yes, @egreg has answered and so the OP is happy but probably (if hyperref is loaded after amsmath) it ought to work:-)
@DavidCarlisle No, that's the first thing I did.
@DavidCarlisle I'd classify this as a hidden feature of hyperref.
@egreg yes I realise it doesn't work but from a user perspective if you use \tag then auto-numbering is disabled so equation and equation* ought to be equivalent. but...
@egreg blame @UlrikeFischer then.
@DavidCarlisle Note that the annotation is correctly using AMS.<number>, but the warning by pdftex refers to equation.0.1.
3:47 PM
@egreg yes, exactly
@DavidCarlisle I don't see an easy way out, except to rework the whole logic.
@egreg what do you mean by race condition?
@UlrikeFischer Two parts of the program want to do the same thing in different ways.
@UlrikeFischer One is \refstepcounter that sets the anchor (called by \begin{equation}), the other is the anchor set with \tag.
@egreg so in principle setting that first anchor should be delayed in case there is a \tag
@egreg ah, there is a \refstepcounter. Interesting problem.
3:51 PM
@DavidCarlisle Yes, but equation always does \refstepcounter to begin with.
@egreg I know:-) As you may note I am not offering any solutions just saying that from a user view the current behaviour is sub-optimal. (Not that this is the the only thing in latex that could have that comment)
@DavidCarlisle Possibly, if hyperref disables the \refstepcounter and then, if no \tag is scanned, uses the same mechanism as for \tag to set the anchor with a suitable \refstepcounter. But…
@egreg fundamentally the \label /\refstepcounter system wasn't designed to have anchor nodes at specific positions, hyperref is just such a massive hack to get round that basic design mis-match.
4:08 PM
@DavidCarlisle well imho it should the environment which should decide if an anchor is needed or not. Is this processed twice or once?
@UlrikeFischer once, equation is pretty much $$
@UlrikeFischer as @JosephWright just commented \begin{equation}[id=blub] would be easier to manage but currently the \label can be anywhere (as can \tag) so you really have no clue until the end.
@DavidCarlisle one could perhaps use another counter, but I'm not sure if this doesn't confuse amsmath somewhere:
@UlrikeFischer yes I'd started to make an answer based on trying to separate Hequation and equation counters but egreg's answer of using equation* is much simpler and better for the user (as an answer to his immediate problem). If you just want the unique identifiers using a global internal counter is certainly simpler, it depends if you mind if foo.pdf#equation.6 links to equation 4. destination names are not as visible in PDf as they are in HTML so perhaps that is Ok, but it is a bit weird.
4:28 PM
@DavidCarlisle try \usepackage[name]{hypdestopt}
@UlrikeFischer ah I was looking for that option in hyperref :-)
@DavidCarlisle I was just writing "that you can't remove a destination" when I remembered that this package does it ;-). It doesn't work with xelatex currently, but I don't directly see a reason why it should'nt work with it too, imho it simply marks destinations with links as used in the aux.
@DavidCarlisle sounds as if you should move longtable 4.14 out of hiding
4:45 PM
@UlrikeFischer there is a plan to move it to tools-dev but I have been a bit distracted at work, hopefully before Christmas
I see latex-dev is behind latex at the moment, but I don't think I can do lt in time for the first -dev release
@DavidCarlisle is there more to do than moving it into the branch?
@UlrikeFischer make it work?
@UlrikeFischer apart from "new" things like nameref I was hoping to see how much of the v5 code that's in my github would be safe to move over.
5:18 PM
Has anybody here ever tried Manjaro?
@Skillmon No. There are so many Linux distros these days it's hard to keep up :|
@Skillmon but if I was curious I'd probably just chuck in a virtual machine and give it a whirl. :p
@Plergux well, I personally use Arch since years (and am very happy with it), but for my wife's laptop this seems like too much work (she isn't as computer-phile as I am, so won't maintain it herself)
@DavidCarlisle it seems to work fine already. I used it now and then (when I remembered to merge it), and I know from at least one large document using it too.
5:33 PM
@UlrikeFischer yes I was being "cautious" in what I moved, so I think what is there is OK but it probably still leaves 20 year old bug reports unaddressed, i was hoping to find time to look through them again but perhaps I should just ship it as is...
@Skillmon Have you tried beta.distrochooser.de ? :)
@Skillmon Yes, actively using it for years.
@DavidCarlisle I would ship it out. It addresses the float/page overflow bug and this is what people noticed in the last time.
@JosephWright do you have a target date for the next -dev release ? ^^
@Skillmon Actually, one of the main reasons for using Manjaro for me is that I have the full package variety of Arch at hand while having very easy to use installation and driver selection (I had some trouble with that on Arch a few years ago and Manjaro's assistants really helped). I regularly recommend it to beginners.
5:40 PM
@TeXnician good to hear, I guess it should be a good choice for my wife then :)
@Skillmon Just a minor word of warning: Manjaro preinstalls some more software than the usual distro (e.g. Steam is pre-installed) which is aimed to help users but a cleanup of those programs (all visible in the start menu) might be a wise move after install.
@TeXnician ok, thanks :)
@TeXnician off to bring my kids into bed and install a Linux on a laptop :)
@Skillmon Have fun :)
@DavidCarlisle Not at present
@JosephWright :-)
5:44 PM
@UlrikeFischer, @DavidCarlisle I'm still not quite sure what's needed for nameref: I think I've not been playing close enough attention. Any chance of a summary on the team list?
@JosephWright I think it's resolved purely to a longtable/2e-level issue so text_purify is out the loop now
@JosephWright I'm not sure if anything is really needed. As @DavidCarlisle wrote somewhere, all this gettitlestring business is perhaps overdoing and it is enough if \nameref locally disables commands like \label.
@UlrikeFischer If I can keep tools packages not pulling in the the ho-tex stack that would be good if "required" still means anything, which it probably doesn't. I'll see what I can do...
@DavidCarlisle I think you can really try \def\@currentlabelname{caption text}. After all the text is normally written to the lot too, so it can't explode completly.
@UlrikeFischer yes that's the plan.
5:54 PM
@DavidCarlisle ;-). And I looked at text_purify as I didn't want to pull in ho-tex either. One always gets so many packages once one does it ...
@UlrikeFischer I did wonder about that
@MarcelKrüger I just tried to use lua-ul around some arabic from arablualatex, but it complains there there is no box:
\setmainfont[Ligatures=TeX,Script=Arabic]{DejaVu Sans}
\underLine{\begin{txarab}الكتابة العربية\end{txarab}}
2 hours later…
8:12 PM
@Skillmon ooh mrs. rabbit is a Linux power user :)
8:46 PM
@TeXnician Hi, can you by any chance have a look at tex.stackexchange.com/questions/571816?
@Sebastiano Greetings! :)
@Dr.ManuelKuehner Hi :) Unfortunately, I am not a pgfplots expert. Maybe someone else will be able to help.
@TeXnician Thanks for the swift reply. Can you recommend of someone?
(no "of")
@Dr.ManuelKuehner Well, in former times, Christian Feuersänger and marmot would have come to my mind but nowadays I'm not that sure.
9:04 PM
@TeXnician Ah right, marmot: He/she was amazing. I contacted Christian Feuersänger in Xing and chatted a bit with him. He is busy with work/life.
9:33 PM
@Dr.ManuelKuehner Marmots and other *lings are still active on topanswers.xyz, though.... You can try there, if you don't mind preparing another question (well, just a bit of copy and paste)
@Rmano Good idea.
10:30 PM
@UlrikeFischer Hey, I can't reproduce this here. Which lua-ul version do you use?
@MarcelKrüger 2020/07/13 v0.1.0.
@UlrikeFischer That looks good. It's weird, can you send me the full error?
10:46 PM
@MarcelKrüger I just compiled in an empty folder and there it worked. Now I need to find which local file interferes.
@MarcelKrüger I don't understand it ;-(. They are using the same files, but the failing one is not showing the line Lua function luaul.restore_everyhbox = 11
Do the other Lua function lines appear in both files?
@MarcelKrüger found it, I had a local lua-ul.lua
11:09 PM
@UlrikeFischer I, I know that situation all too well.

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