The Nineteenth Byte

Zgarb

22:00

@Dennis @TheNumberOne Here's a primality test in HPR + macros: pastebin.com/j0gWmmgQ

It expands to about 1200 bytes of HPR.

quartata

You can't cast close votes on graduated sites until 3,000 rep?

Jeez

When we graduate, will users lose the privileges they no longer have the rep for?

Alex A.

Yes

quartata

Wow

I hope we never graduate then.

2

Alex A.

Or you could just hope you get sufficient rep by then. :P

quartata

Do mods get all privileges automagically?

Alex A.

22:02

Yes

quartata

It takes 10,000 rep to see deleted answers.

Why

SuperJedi224

@AlexA. Well that's silly

Alex A.

But on graduated sites there are requirements that moderator candidates must meet in order to be considered.

SuperJedi224

@quartata I really don't know

quartata

Why is there such a difference between beta and graduated site privileges

@AlexA. I know.

El'endia Starman

22:03

@quartata Smaller population on beta sites.

Alex A.

For example, when we graduate there is a very real possibility that I will be ineligible to run in the moderator elections.

quartata

I just thought it was amusing that Alex wouldn't even have all of the privileges if PPCG is graduated

SuperJedi224

@AlexA. Are the requirements listed somewhere?

Alex A.

Not that I know of. I'm mostly speaking from experience participating (from a voter perspective) in the Stack Overflow moderator elections.

I bet @Doorknob would know.

El'endia Starman

Like, when beta sites first get started, you have a couple hundred people interacting. Producing content, passing judgement on it. After a week, you have just enough data to pick people that you trust will guide the site in the right direction and act responsibly with extra privileges. These are pro-tem mods. As time goes on, it becomes more clear who the community trusts, and these people get mod-level privileges (high rep -> great privileges).

@AlexA. This seems strange to me. What do you think might disqualify you?

Alex A.

22:08

@El'endiaStarman Well, for example, the Stack Overflow elections require the candidates to have certain badges and a minimum reputation level. Of the (active) mods, I have the lowest reputation at 12.1k.

quartata

@El'endiaStarman It just seems strange to me because 10k rep is actually very difficult to get (at least on here)

Alex A.

I've actually found that it's much easier to accumulate reputation on PPCG than it is on other sites, such as Stack Overflow.

flawr

We have 32 > 10k rep users.

Not that many.

Alex A.

Yeah. I think (though I'm not certain) that a certain number of high-rep users is required for graduation.

Doorknob

@AlexA. know about what?

@AlexA. I have no choice :P

Alex A.

22:10

But internally, Stack Exchange is talking about the possibility of a state of "perpetual beta" for sites that don't meet the graduation requirements but are otherwise healthy, active sites. There's something about it on Meta.SE somewhere.

quartata

@AlexA. I think it is pretty common on StackOverflow to see answers with lots of upvotes, while here even good answers have only 5-20 upvotes usually

Now here questions typically get a lot of upvotes as opposed to StackOverflow

Doorknob

@AlexA. The team has confirmed that perpetual beta is now a thing.

El'endia Starman

Oh, and as even more time goes by, you have more people with great privileges, so at some point, it's good to have a re-adjustment. The standards and stakes have changed and become "higher", so to speak. This is graduation. It's when SE says "Yes, this is a good, high-quality community." So privilege requirements become a bit more strict to help handle the increase in population and because there won't be further changes, so you kinda want to limit the number of people that can delete stuff.

quartata

@Doorknob I think it wouldn't hurt for PPCG to be perpetual beta site, since it is never going to be as big as the graduated ones.

Alex A.

@Doorknob Oh damn son, I must have missed that announcement. Link?

Doorknob

22:11

@hichris123 "Are you saying that it's possible for a site to stay in beta forever?" Yes. — Ana ♦ Jun 1 at 18:55

quartata

That just isn't how it works.

El'endia Starman

@AlexA. I don't think I was at even 5k rep on C.SE when I was elected. Certainly not more than 6k.

Alex A.

@quartata SE decides how it works. ;)

quartata

This site is Q&A only in the most general of terms

@AlexA. Fair enough...

@El'endiaStarman Really? Huh

El'endia Starman

Honestly, I don't think PPCG will actually stay in beta forever.

Alex A.

22:12

@El'endiaStarman Oh, Christianity.SE is a graduated site? And you're an elected mod then, not pro-tem?

Doorknob

@El'endiaStarman 10 q/day is a very high bar

quartata

@AlexA. It is a graduated site I believe.

Doorknob

it's also one that might actually actively be bad for PPCG, should we exceed it

2

El'endia Starman

@AlexA. I was a pro-tem. Fun fact: all four pro-tems that were still around were elected. First (and only?) site where that happened.

@AlexA. Been graduated for two years now, I think.

quartata

@Doorknob This is my point, it is incredibly unlikely to see 10 high quality challenges in one day because they aren't really questions.

Alex A.

22:13

@El'endiaStarman I hope that happens here. :D (Congrats on being elected, btw. ;))

Doorknob

unfortunately, I've mentioned this several times before, and the team is very adamant that the 10 questions per day limit will continue to exist

El'endia Starman

Thanks. :)

quartata

@Doorknob If that is the case, then I don't think it'll be possible for us to ever graduate.

Alex A.

@Doorknob Which is why permabeta could be a good thing for us.

2

quartata

No way the average could be 10 challenges a day.

Doorknob

22:14

nods

quartata

Permabeta would be perfect for us. Just as long as they don't pull the plug on us.

Doorknob

@Doorknob You're right that graduation needs to happen on a case by case basis. This is why Pops' 10QPD threshold is viewed as the trigger for a conversation of whether a site should graduate, not the decision itself. What about smaller sites which probably won't hit that 10QPD threshold? I say above "Success and graduation are not the same thing". Maybe now we need to look at how non-graduating communities can get recognized for their success. — Ana ♦ Jun 1 at 18:47

quartata

@Doorknob This

Thank you based Ana

Fix it fix it fix it fix it

Alex A.

@quartata Permabeta implies that the site is healthy enough that it doesn't run the risk of being shut down.

It just doesn't meet the graduation requirements

Doorknob

that's almost certainly true for PPCG

quartata

22:15

@AlexA. I basically don't mind what they do with us as long as they don't kill us

Doorknob

we made it ~3 years on traffic orders of magnitude lower than that which we have now

Alex A.

Well, except for code trolling, which skyrocketed our traffic and plummetted our quality.

El'endia Starman

In the last four months on C.SE, the 7-day average number of questions has surpassed 10 questions exactly once.

quartata

@AlexA. Please don't talk about that

I looked at some old code trolling questions the other day

Doorknob

not sure how many people agree, but overall code-trolling was absolutely one of the best things to happen to PPCG

quartata

22:16

shudders

@Doorknob Traffic sure. Quality hell no

Alex A.

@Doorknob I bet you @PeterTaylor wouldn't agree. :P

quartata

PPCG is not "that weird site where people post dumb SO questions" and it would have been a terrible thing for us if that's what people thought we were

2

Doorknob

who cares about quality when there's nobody around to see it

quartata

@Doorknob lmao I do

Doorknob

of course I'm not disputing the fact that code-trolling isn't a thing anymore

completely in favor of that

Alex A.

22:17

@Doorknob that's privileged information I thought we weren't supposed to post that publicly -_-

Doorknob

@AlexA. no it's not

remember, new privilege

Alex A.

> privilege

quartata

I could access it if I had the rep

Doorknob

(/admin/analytics is still private)

Alex A.

4,500 rep, right?

Doorknob

22:18

something like that

quartata

@AlexA. By that logical it is a bad thing to post links to deleted answers

@AlexA. I think so...

Alex A.

I do mean privileged, not private.

quartata

Lemme check

SuperJedi224

@AlexA. 5,000

Alex A.

Ok

quartata

22:19

Yes it is 5k

Thanks @SuperJedi224

Doorknob

@AlexA. it's ok to publicly post anything that you could still see as a regular user

Alex A.

I thought there was some text somewhere that said not to post the site analytics stuff anywhere

I could just be thinking of some mod text or something

Doorknob

on /admin/analytics, yes

VoteToClose

\o/ Java Pristineness!

0

A: Programming a Pristine World

Java, 217 Bytes Cause, ya know, Java. class A{public static void main(String[]z){String[]a=new String[5];a[0]="w";a[1]="o";a[2]="r";a[3]="l";a[4]="d";int b;for(int i=0;i<5;i++)b=(a[i].length())/(a[i].length());System.out.print(a[0]+a[1]+a[2]+a[3]+a[4]);}} Ungolfed: class A{ public static ...

Peter Taylor

@MartinBüttner That's fine, as long as you seed it deterministically.

quartata

22:19

You know, it probably wouldn't be a terrible idea to have a "future of ppcg #realtalk" thing on meta if we want to pursue this further.

Alex A.

@Doorknob Okay. alex-is-wrong. Thanks :)

@quartata It's been done

quartata

@AlexA. With Geobits answer-banned for the duration of it?

(joke)

flawr

Has anyone ever done a Buddhabrot program?

Alex A.

Of course not. Geobits +500 bounty, accepted answer, +1.

quartata

"WE ARE GRADUATINmmph---"

VoteToClose

22:20

@Doorknob What do you mean in your comment?

Doorknob

nothing

I deleted it

(I'm an idiot)

VoteToClose

Oh. XD

quartata

@Doorknob Stop trying to get stars by ruining your self-esteem pls

2

Doorknob

you know you don't have to star that :P

3

Alex A.

sigh people here do seem to love self-deprecation

quartata

22:22

Hey look, 3 2 1 stars!

Oh now it is 2 3 1

Alex A.

@Doorknob This should probably be in the room description. "General discussion for codegolf.se. You don't have to star that."

quartata

/topic pls

DLosc

@Linus (Ah, that's right--and your current solution is much shorter as well.)

VoteToClose

@Doorknob No, I am - I thought it was removing one character, not 1->program length.

Doorknob

everybody is bad at reading :P

Alex A.

22:24

@Doorknob What does that say I can't read it

El'endia Starman

Wow, there are so many self-deleted answers on that question.

quartata

@AlexA. dilbert.com/strip/2001-08-28

2

Alex A.

:D

VoteToClose

@El'endiaStarman Have you seen mine? XD

Martin Büttner

@PeterTaylor Well, I don't think it'll be a relevant improvement, so I didn't bother, but thanks.

Alex A.

22:27

Two people like my idea :3

VoteToClose

feature-request Can it be made so that deleted answers that are later edited don't move the "active" position of a question?

3

SuperJedi224

quartata

@SuperJedi224 I remember that one lol

VoteToClose

^

Alex A.

@VoteToClose Ugh, that happens? You should post that on Meta.SE. Definitely +1 from me.

Calvin's Hobbies

22:29

Let's time NewMainPosts

VoteToClose

@AlexA. Lemme double check it really quick.

quartata

Dilbert was my favorite strip as a kid (along with Calvin and Hobbes and Outland).

Calvin's Hobbies

Oh damn, at 200 rep today :/

VoteToClose

Yup, it totally does.

SuperJedi224

@Calvin'sHobbies Better than my record

Calvin's Hobbies

22:31

@SuperJedi224 200 is the limit

SuperJedi224

@Calvin'sHobbies Yeah I know

quartata

I hate markdown

Peter Taylor

@Calvin'sHobbies I didn't see them in national news. You obviously live in the wrong nation.

New Sandboxed Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

First 100 Twin Primes What Are Twin Primes? Twin primes are two prime numbers that has a gap of 2 between them; i.e. 3-5, 5-7, 11-13... Goal Take no input and print first 100 twin primes to STDOUT. Shortest code in bytes wins. Rules Your submission should be an executable complete pr...

Peter Taylor

@MartinBüttner As long as you're not special-casing k=5, I'm not worried if you can't attempt k=11. None of the references I've seen in the literature suggest that anyone has seriously attempted k > 8

Alex A.

22:35

@PeterTaylor You mean Starbucks isn't an epidemic everywhere? ;)

Martin Büttner

@PeterTaylor heh, fair enough :)

Alex A.

@quartata Beats HTML though, doesn't it?

Peter Taylor

There are a few Starbucks in my city. I think they mainly cater to tourists and foreign exchange programme students.

New Main Posts

4

Q: Print a Pentomino Rectangle

Write a program or function that takes no input but prints or returns a constant textual depiction of a rectangle made of the 12 distinct pentominoes: The rectangle may have any dimensions and be in any orientation, but all 12 pentominoes must be used exactly once, so it will have area 60. Eac...

quartata

@AlexA. Not really

VoteToClose

22:38

0

Q: Deleted Answers Edited Post-Mortem Still Move Question Activity

I noticed an issue recently when cleaning up a deleted answer in a question: The activity on the question updated, moving it to the highest position on the "Active Questions" tab. After I noticed this the first time, I tested it again. It definitely popped up once more with the activity label m...

bug edits deleted-questions activity

Alex A.

@PeterTaylor Are you a consumer of coffee? Hopefully the superior options outnumber the Starbucks in your city.

Martin Büttner

@PeterTaylor FYI, I get something like 400 for k = 10.

quartata

Are there even hundred of these: meta.codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/7433/45151

They are definitely finite, right?

Alex A.

@quartata Really? I actually love Markdown, especially in comparison to HTML.

Doorknob

ok well iPage is being really annoying and saying "permission denied" when trying to run an executable even though its perms are 777

Alex A.

22:39

>:O

yPage

quartata

@Doorknob htaccess?

Like is it an error in the logs or 403 forbidden

El'endia Starman

@quartata Mathematical consensus is that there are an infinite number of twin primes.

Martin Büttner

@quartata "It is conjectured that there are an infinite number of twin primes (this is one form of the twin prime conjecture), but proving this remains one of the most elusive open problems in number theory."

quartata

Oh right.

El'endia Starman

So far.

Doorknob

22:40

@quartata no like I try to run it with shell_exec('./fractal ...'); in my PHP file and in my logs I see "sh: 1: ./fractal: Permission denied"

Dennis

@Zgarb Nice! You should post it in the catalog.

quartata

@Doorknob And you are sure it is 777?

Doorknob

yes

quartata

Who is the owner?

Shouldn't make a difference though.

Doorknob

um

that shouldn't matter, should it?

yeah

quartata

22:41

It shouldn't but who knows

Doorknob

ftp> ls
200 PORT command successful
150 Opening ASCII mode data connection for file list
-rwxrwxrwx   1 4389776  15000       28344 Nov  9 17:34 fractal
-rw-r--r--   1 4389776  15000         192 Nov  9 17:34 index.php
226 Transfer complete

yeah, it should be executable

quartata

Hmph.

It might be something iPage does.

They might not want you to run executables.

Doorknob

>:(

Martin Büttner

@PeterTaylor do you have a reference solution?

Peter Taylor

@AlexA. I generally drink two cortados a day in the week and a lot of Moka-pot sólo at weekends. The place my colleagues and I go for the mid-morning coffee is very good, but the place we go for the after-lunch coffee isn't. It's complicated.

Sparr

22:42

...

a p11 oscillator

quartata

Maybe test it with an executable shell script

Sparr

I am dubious

2

El'endia Starman

> There are 808,675,888,577,436 twin prime pairs below 1018.[16] (@quartata)

Peter Taylor

@MartinBüttner Although there's a recent proof of the infinitude of sexy primes, so there's hope.

I don't have a reference solution, no. I've been thinking more about Lembik's challenge than my own.

Martin Büttner

I'm afraid to google that.

4

quartata

22:43

@El'endiaStarman I see.

Martin Büttner

Also, just for the record, Peter said "sexy".

2

quartata

@MartinBüttner lmao

flawr

infinitude is a real word?

El'endia Starman

Twin prime

A twin prime is a prime number that has a prime gap of two. In other words, to qualify as a twin prime, the prime number must be either 2 less or 2 more than another prime number (which by definition would mean that it, too, is a twin prime)—for example, the twin prime pair (41, 43). Two is not considered a twin prime with the number three, since it violates the aforementioned rule. Sometimes the term twin prime is used for a pair of twin primes; an alternative name for this is prime twin or prime pair. Twin primes appear despite the general tendency of gaps between adjacent primes to become larger...

quartata

Not much of a number theory person, maybe it shows...

El'endia Starman

22:44

> Further, assuming the Elliott–Halberstam conjecture and its generalized form, the Polymath project wiki states that the bound has been reduced to 12 and 6, respectively.[7]

Doorknob

@quartata permission denied... :/

Alex A.

@MartinBüttner Clearly this should also be added to the room description.

El'endia Starman

@PeterTaylor: Not quite a proof, it seems. 246 has definitely been proven, though.

Peter Taylor

@flawr It dates back to the 1640s, so I certainly didn't make it up.

quartata

@Doorknob Then it is something that iPage does I bet.

I hate to say this...

Peter Taylor

22:45

Ah, I was misremembering the state of play. Oops.

quartata

...but it's Perl time

Just kidding I don't hate to say this

I love this

El'endia Starman

@PeterTaylor For what it's worth, I did not know that this much progress had been made until just now. Exciting times...

Alex A.

@PeterTaylor That does sound complicated. I had to Google both of the things you mentioned. The former is something I enjoy as well and the latter I couldn't find a decent description of.

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

@anOKsquirrel What was the username you suggested to me?

quartata

@El'endiaStarman \o/

Interesting stuff.

Peter Taylor

22:46

@AlexA. Basically espresso but made on a stove-top rather than with an industrial machine.

Alex A.

Oh, like Turkish coffee?

I know what you're talking about. It's also good.

Peter Taylor

AIUI Turkish coffee is made in the cup, and still has the grounds in.

quartata

As I understand it

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

Scheme or LISP?

quartata

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ Neither

Martin Büttner

22:48

@PeterTaylor That's how I've heard the term used as well.

quartata

But Scheme if I had to

Peter Taylor

A Moka pot has a chamber at the bottom where you put water, then a chamber with the grounds, and a spout up to the collection chamber. When the water boils the steam pressure drives the rest of the water up through the grounds and the spout.

Alex A.

@PeterTaylor Oh, I thought Turkish coffee was prepared in the stovetop Moka pot as well.

Martin Büttner

And I think proper Turkish coffee will then boil the coffee several times (with the grounds in) on top of that.

quartata

@PeterTaylor This is how I make my coffee

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

22:48

poll this thing up!

Alex A.

Done. So far 100% Scheme, 0% Lisp. (Based on 1 vote.)

quartata

Where is the option for neither

I guess I'll vote Scheme

@AlexA. 2

I've never actually used Common LISP, just Scheme.

All I remember was that Common Lisp had (defun which summed it up perfectly

2

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

^ how so? ;)

Alex A.

It removes the fun

quartata

Because it is both complicated and ugly

Scheme at least is simple and ugly

Alex A.

22:51

"Thought you enjoyed programming? Well think again!"

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

I think parenthetical statements are beautiful in their own sick, twisted way.

New Meta Posts

0

Q: Good, easy challenges for learning CJam?

I decided to start learning CJam and of course I need some questions to answer. What are some good, introductory level challenges do practice learning with? I suppose this works for any other language too. I should also mention that I am new with working with a stack (I know java only really) so ...

discussion

quartata

They're OK. But I find them particularly ugly in Common LISP.

@NewMetaPosts close?

I have thought of a truly marvelous OO language which this hard drive is too small to contain

3

SuperJedi224

At this rate I hope I don't run out of stars.

quartata

I know. I'm star gold.

VoteToClose

22:54

@SuperJedi224 What was the point of the edit you just made? I'm confused.

SuperJedi224

What edit?

If you mean the edit to my last answer, I added a link to the esolangs article.

Faraz Masroor

okay hey guys im learning cjam, gimme some easy challenges to practice with please!

VoteToClose

Oh! I didn't see that that was adding a link, my apologies.

@FarazMasroor Welcome! :D

quartata

@FarazMasroor Sadly a lot of challenges already have CJam answers...

VoteToClose

@quartata He means mini-challenges.

quartata

22:56

Maybe you could try just looking at the challenge, writing your answer and then comparing it to <s>Dennis's</s> the CJam answer already there?

Alex A.

@quartata Doesn't mean he can't try developing his own.

Faraz Masroor

challenges work too

even if theyre solved

but i want the easier kind, unless there aren't any easy ones and theyre all teh same level

quartata

I'd start with some of the catalog challenges.

SuperJedi224

Darn, I'm out of stars

Faraz Masroor

what are those?

quartata

22:57

So Hello World, primes, cat, truth machine

VoteToClose

MINI-CHALLENGE: in CJam, make a program that does the FizzBuzz sequence to 1000.

quartata

10

A: Does PPCG fulfil a role as a catalogue for golfed solution of standard programming exercises?

Existing Catalogue Challenges This post lists all the challenges which already act as a catalogue. Currently these are only the few which have explicitly been posted with that goal in mind. Requirements for being added to this list include that the task should be a common programming exercise, t...

Faraz Masroor

okay well hello world is "Hello World" because it automatically prints the latest stack addition

quartata

@FarazMasroor FizzBuzz in particular is very good practice. It uses loops, math, a bit of string manipulation...

Alex A.

@Faraz Have you worked through the examples in the CJam documentation/tutorial?

Faraz Masroor

22:58

yeah im looking that right now, i'm at the euclidean distance one. I got l~@-~~mh so im proud lol, using the mh function

sorry l~@-~~-mh

ugh something like that

l~@-@@-mh

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

;~@@~@#@#@:$R#FEDs mh

Calvin's Hobbies

@PeterTaylor I live in a nation where the debate between science/religion, secular/non-secular nullifies any of the positive aspects of either party :/

SuperJedi224

I should add subtraction to Microscript II, I think I'll do that in the next release.

Faraz Masroor

FEDS hang on chill lol, haven't learned ; yet

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