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6:00 PM
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Another minor inconsistency: why did Illuvatar not help the good people?
I mean, at all?
 
That's quite prone to the opposite problem though. After you spend decades writing something it becomes difficult to review how the entirety of it interacts and the propensity to keep it the same is strong, if not only for fear of ruining some other component of the work.
@Cerberus The explanation I heard is that Illuvatar tries not to meddle in the affairs of mortals much. If I recall correctly think he did intervene somewhat though. Something about Gandalf the Grey becoming Gandalf the White or something.
 
@Tonepoet I don't recall him being involved with Gandalf, rather than the Valar?
Although of course the same could be said about the Valar.
 
@Tonepoet He did dust him off a little, yes.
 
Either Illuvatar is not a good god, or he is not powerful.
Hmm where have we heard this story before?
 
Probably in classic philosophy. I forget which greek said it though.
 
@Tonepoet Oh, certainly, but the main target is the Abrahamic religions.
@Randal'Thor Hah!
Perhaps the Valar were afraid that the One Ring should bring corruption to their lands?
Feänor was corrupted by Melkor regarding the Silmarils, after all.
And Sauron was corrupted by Melkor.
And Melkor himself was corrupted...somehow.
 
@Cerberus An all powerful God probably wouldn't be very good by our own standards of morality, but then again I wonder just what the characters in The Lord of the Rings would think of Tolkien.
 
Why not good?
In the Abrahamic religions, God is supposedly omnipotent and good.
And in Tolkien.
 
> What are the team's chances of success?
> What is the team's chance of success?
Is there a difference?
 
@Cerberus How is the author of a book much different from an omnipotent god, in respect to the relationship he has with his own characters?
 
6:17 PM
That they can continue living without him?
 
@Færd Very little? Perhaps chances suggests that there will be several occasions or tries or parts each of which can be finished successfully?
@Tonepoet In some ways, he is similar.
In others, he is not.
 
@Tonepoet Ah, but remember: Tolkien didn't invent the story of LotR, he just chronicled it based on his translation of the Red Book of Westmarch ;-) See also How did J.R.R. Tolkien learn about the events of his books? (In-Universe)
 
@Cerberus Well, the original sentence I saw was about the chances of someone being accepted as the renter of a room. I can't see different parts here.
 
We can ascribe different roles to Tolkien and Illuvatar, respectively, regarding the way they deal with what happens in Middle Earth.
@Færd Yes, chances can also be used when there is only one chance.
It's just a bit of a suggestion to me.
I think for many people chances are is a fixed, idiomatic expression.
So they pluralise it everywhere without distinction.
 
Like odds are. I don't know how the came to pluralize it.
 
6:22 PM
@Randal'Thor Yes, many authors claim something akin to that, and in my own, unpublished writing, reporting a stream of consciousness was my method of choice. The reality of the situation is that until a work is published, it is plastic though.
 
Actually, odds cannot be used in this sense unless in plural.
 
I suppose chances might emphasize the numeric aspects.
Or countability in grammatical terms.
 
The numeric aspects of what? the chance?
 
Right.
 
Ah, like 56.39%?
 
6:26 PM
Yeah.
Compare that to an answer like "highly probable".
Both would be valid for either question I think, but one form of the question might be more likely to draw a certain type of answer than the other.
 
Maybe, if we see the percentage as the sum of some independent chances.
But I'm not sure native speakers think about this when they say chances.
 
It's just a thought though.
 
@Randal'Thor Well, yes ... and we all know the Prime Directive to be: Never Interfere With The Plot.
 
@Færd Ah, yes! It may indeed be a contamination.
 
Contamination gives a sinister air to it!
 
6:32 PM
@Færd I prefer the word perversion for that purpose. =P
 
Cynical. :)
 
Haha.
 
Arf arf.
 
omigod Barry Manilow is Tom Bombadil.
 
6:37 PM
@Færd Nice! Hmm ... I think I know what legerdemain means, but I'm only 99% sure.
 
I'm going to have to look up Tureen, Vurdure, Cencacle and Pule later.
 
@Færd I remember that test, it's nice.
@Tonepoet Not verdure?
And cencacle looks like a typo as wlel?
 
I may have mispelled them. I have it in a separate tab.
And kinda went past the page.
 
Hah.
I didn't know pule either.
 
I wrote it here as more of a note.
 
6:41 PM
27,500 words.
 
I remember many of the words from the previous time I took the test, though.
 
I'll let Google sort out the typos later. =P
 
Is that good?
 
Yay!
Jul 17 '11 at 17:49, by Cerberus
I had never seen it before, but it was clear as a derivation from Latin.
The test is biased in favour of classicists.
 
I'm not going to find out the results because I'm not filling in survey information.
 
6:44 PM
Or people who have learned Latin and Greek in school, which is about 10% of the population.
 
I really need to read through a dictionary after seeing page two though.
 
@Tonepoet You can get the result anyway.
 
@Tonepoet You could always lie.
About your age, at least.
The rest of the information they ask for isn't very personal.
 
It'll affect the statistics they want to use in their study if many people lie.
 
Yeah, I don't care to lie.
 
6:47 PM
(For the record, I didn't lie when filling in my own details.)
I'm just an enabler.
:-P
 
And it's stuff I wouldn't even tell many of you, even having been a member of this website for the past year. =P
 
@Randal'Thor Good! Would you lend me some?
@Cerberus They count as your passive vocab. I wouldn't say the test is biased.
 
Jul 17 '11 at 17:47, by Cerberus
If they had used more Germanic words it would have been much more difficult for me.
 
@Færd Sure! Here's a few: bellicosity, petrichor, quomodocunquiser.
How many of you know what all of those mean without Googling? :-D
 
Petrichor was discussed in this room only a few days ago!
Bellicose is from bellum, war. "Warsomeness".
 
6:54 PM
If the selection correctly represents the proportions of Germanic and non-Germanic words in English, then still no problem.
 
Quomodocumque = in whatever way.
So it could mean someone who will do things in whatever way imaginable. Or something.
I'd probably not tick that box...
 
Well, maybe you know of some better ones, but that's certainly a really good one, and a perfect example of the way SWRs should work.
 
Yeah, many people would have closed that question had it not been for that answer!
2 days ago, by tchrist
0
A: Is 'petrichor' the only noun in English that means a specific scent?

SteveHere's a good one I believe: Decomposition?

 
@Cerberus It's a word I found many years ago while questing through the complete OED in search of extremely obscure words. Been a while since I pulled it out to impress people :-)
And you didn't get the meaning quite right (but close).
 
Haha, it is a nice (and probably recently invented) word.
The part about "money" is not in the Latin.
@Færd What are those proportions?
Are you counting words in the dictionary, weighing them by frequency of use, or what?
And what use?
Does SMS language count?
 
7:01 PM
I've been hoping to exemplify how a S.W.R. could be done well in a S.L.A. recently with just a dictionary definition, simply because answering the question requires expertise with either a great command of the vocabulary or personal experience with the context where such a word would be used.
 
Do works of literature count more for frequency, since people will benefit most from a large vocabulary when reading literature?
Etc.
 
I think I even have just the question to do it...
 
@Tonepoet True.
 
@Cerberus Not that recently.
> It’s listed in the Oxford English Dictionary, but they only have one recorded use of it from 1652 where the Scotsman Thomas Urquhart complained about “Those quomodocunquizing clusterfists and rapacious varlets.”
I wonder how many words there are in English containing two Q's.
 
@Cerberus I'm not the one to be asked. But I think SMS language is fairly clear of hard Germanic words.
Etc.
 
7:03 PM
@Tonepoet What's an SLA?
 
@Randal'Thor Ah, OK.
 
A single line answer.
 
It wasn't borrowed from Latin or French, though, but invented in modern times.
@Færd Why?
 
@Færd Remember to give them back later. He may need them
 
There are a ton of Latinate words in English. However, of the most frequently used words, the large majority are Germanic. So how do you weigh that?
 
7:05 PM
@Færd what about all that profanity?
 
It takes a special set of conditions for it to happen, particularly the dictionary definition has to be axiomatically applicable and the word has to be relatively rare, yet existant.
 
Without a decision on that, it doesn't make much sense to say that English is more Germanic or more Italic.
 
A far cry from anything I've ever done with my S.W.R. answers, sadly.
 
@Cerberus There's a taxonomy of sorts. THere's the dictionary word, and then there's the instance of that word. The 'instance' has a name I can't remember.
 
Sure, there are various terms.
Then there is the matter of inflexed words.
 
7:07 PM
@Randal'Thor 'clusterfists'? I don't know if that's a euphemism or eggcorn or what but it doesn't sound good.
@Cerberus lemmas or roots.
I guess the 3rd person plural passive pluperfect may not ever occur ever
wait...
just happened.
Those bastards
 
Heh.
 
throw in hortative subjunctive
 
@Mitch I'd never heard the word before either. A bit of Googling suggests that the only (surviving) usage of it was in that very quote from Mr Urquhart.
 
@Cerberus I think for someone knowing around 35,000 words (which based on their blog, is fairly above the average number for even a native speaker) you'd know most of the Germanic words used in ordinary English SMSs. We can pick ten random Facebook pages and analyze the words if you want.
On the other hand, the precision of 34,400 does sound fishy to me.
 
@Randal'Thor I think it's a scottish thing. all the made up epithets by scots for the human cheeto
also 'pother'? I barely knew her!!
 
7:10 PM
Did somebody say clusterfists?
 
@Mitch Och aye, the Scots are gallus when it comes to words.
 
@tchrist So Tom Bombadil. I haven't seen anybody look at his name as an anagram. So I did. One interesting possibility is dio lamb tomb.
 
@Færd yeah, precision is questionable, not necessarily because they're predicting based on only a few hundred words but because it is hard to know for sure a 'gold' standard: "For these 10 people we know exactly how many words they know, and 'cenacle' is one of them"
 
@Færd But not the uncommon ones.
 
@MetaEd all comes clear
packs bags
withdraws cash from several ATMs
 
@Færd For example, birds, vegetables, game terminology, chat abbreviations, smiley icons, kitchen appliances, I am weak at those.
 
And I found some confirmation: another person observed that his dwarven and human names, Forn and Orald together are an anagram of for Ronald.
 
@Cerberus You're an oddball. (Unless it means something bad)
 
Good vocabularies can range up to around 75,000 words
 
> Most native English adult speakers who have taken the test fall in the range 20,000–35,000 words.
@Cerberus Got what you mean.
 
7:15 PM
Right, their estimate is a conservative one.
 
@Færd No, those things I just don't often read about, they don't interest me as much, and, most importantly, they will be of Germanic origin.
@Færd OK.
 
@Cerberus Oh yeah, now I remember that many those everyday simple words are of Germanic origin!
 
@Cerberus Ptarmigan, mooli, gambit, YMMV, :-P, rotisserie?
 
@tchrist So this lends weight to the idea that Tolkien wrote himself into the book. "Who are you, Master?" "Don’t you know my name yet? That’s the only answer."
 
7:18 PM
@Randal'Thor I know the last one!
 
@Færd Hah, that's the only one I didn't know.
 
I downloaded the H.T.M.L. file for a wildcard search Noah Webster's dictionary from A.R.T.F.L. Project. Now that's incomplete but in the 1828 edition it detailed 65,000~ entries. The second edition added about five thousand more words.
 
@Randal'Thor Waaah!
 
I was stuck for an interesting word for a kitchen appliance, so I Googled up a list and picked the only one I didn't think was common knowledge.
 
I don't know the first two.
I do know the others.
But gambit and rotisserie are from other languages, they're easy.
 
7:20 PM
Hello @DamkerngT. The first and last time I saw you was on E.L.L. How are you?
 
Ptarmigan I have heard many times, but I can never remember what it is.
 
Those are local to me.
 
@tchrist And that means there's also a neat parallel between Tom Bombadil and The Word and The Master from the Gospels.
 
@Tonepoet Good, thanks! How are you?
 
7:21 PM
@MetaEd Might be post facto.
 
I know loads of words for birds, having been a keen birdwatcher.
 
I opened this chat room to get to the main site, actually. :-)
 
@tchrist Absolutely.
 
@Cerberus Really? I didn't know that about gambit. What language is it from?
 
I'm doing great @DamkerngT. Also ah, I see. XD
 
7:22 PM
@tchrist It makes me want to look for other anagrams in his work.
 
@Randal'Thor I don't know, but not English!
E.g. Dutch has gambiet in chess.
 
@Randal'Thor It's text processing vocabulary: word, term, Is that what that was supposed to be? Isn't that a Mouli? (for Moulinex) People spell it mooli in English?
 
Latin.
 
It may be Portuguese or Arabic...
 
Ah, I see we've got the election results. Congratulations, @tchrist, @MetaEd!
 
7:22 PM
Oh, is it?
Probably related to game and gamble?
 
> From French, from Spanish gambito, from Italian gambetto ‎(“gambit, trip”), from gamba ‎(“leg”), from Latin gamba ‎(“calf”).
 
@Mitch No, this is a mooli:
 
@tchrist I think that was meant for you.
 
@DamkerngT. Thank you.
 
7:23 PM
@Cerberus No, game is Germanic.
 
@MetaEd Barry Manilow is in the Bible?
 
@DamkerngT. Why does my name get selected first when people want to ping tchrist? He's earlier in the alphabentic order. XP
 
@tchrist Scandinavian, then?
 
@Randal'Thor Oops! What happened to my tab key!
 
> From Middle English game, gamen, gammen, from Old English gamen ‎(“sport, joy, mirth, pastime, game, amusement, pleasure”), from Proto-Germanic *gamaną ‎(“amusement, pleasure, game", literally "participation, communion, people together”), from *ga- ‎(collective prefix) + *mann- ‎(“man”), equivalent to ge- +‎ man; or alternatively from *ga- + a root from Proto-Indo-European *men- ‎(“to think, have in mind”), equivalent to ge- +‎ mind.

Cognate with Middle High German gamen ‎(“joy, amusement, fun, pleasure”), Swedish gamman ‎(“mirth, rejoicing, merriment”), Icelandic gaman ‎(“fun”). Related
 
7:24 PM
Really sorry about that, @tchrist! I should've checked if I typed my message correctly!
 
@tchrist Ah, that's a weird etymology. But, see only Scandinavian cognates: no Dutch or German.
@Tonepoet Perhaps it is based on which user has last posted a message?
 
@DamkerngT. That's ok, Götterdämmerung.
 
That might be it.
 
@tchrist :D
 
A funambulist is what a numismatist becomes when they stop collecting stamps
 
7:26 PM
@Mitch Evidently a Christ figure.
 
Umm stamps?
 
@Cerberus It's not a real etymology unless it has a Baltic and a Sanskrit cognate
 
Philatelist?
@Mitch Yes! And Tocharian.
 
@Cerberus I love Catullus!
 
Why him?
Not that he isn't likable.
 
7:27 PM
misses Reg again
I implied that you've said something wicked.
 
I suspected as much...
But failed to see the innuendo.
 
Speaking of which, it seems like correspondence is much more active than it was when I joined a year ago. I used to join the chatroom and see people weren't posting messages in here for hours.
 
That still happens.
 
@Cerberus No Italian enemas in this chat.
 
When Rob and Reg left, it became much quieter here.
 
7:28 PM
@Tonepoet Around November, by any chance?
 
We do have a new cohort of promising young-'uns now!
 
@Randal'Thor I can't remember exactly when I earned enough rep. to chat.
 
(Spelling?)
feels illiterate
 
@Cerberus Probably caught it from Kit.
She was feeling iteratively ill this morning.
 
Heh, nice wordplay.
 
7:33 PM
@Cerberus oops, right. whatever. I bet there are religious wars over which is better
 
Wordplay sounds nicer in chat than in face-to-face conversation.
 
@Tonepoet huh. I thought it used to be more active then
 
@Cerberus I am displeased with the understanding of this language I have gained from my peers. I had to check a dictionary to know why you used the word cohort. v_v
 
@Tonepoet what is your cohort?
 
@Tonepoet Hah, why peers?
This why I said that you would become a happy Tonepoet if you learned some Latin.
 
7:36 PM
@Færd You can spend time reading the words to get the play. In speech, things have gone by too fast.
 
@mitch Well now I'll adhere to N. Webster's definition, but it was more along the lines of a singular supporter in an unfavorable cause.
 
@Randal'Thor I've never seen those before, so the word for them should also not exist
 
@Mitch Yeah, but even in my first language, where I'm supposedly more perceptive of clever jokes, seeing them feels better than hearing them.
 
@Færd also in writing, it's less likely you'll get groans and eyerolling expressed explicitly.
 
@Mitch Rolls eyes
 
7:39 PM
:31908348 ?? what are you referring to? Your peercohort?
@Færd groan
 
See what I mean? :)
 
@Færd Have you seen freerice ?
 
No.
 
WTF chat software!!
Got it. Now you can click.
anyway, it is multiple choice word meaning quiz, and you up a level every three or so right.
 
Sounds fun.
 
7:42 PM
@Mitch Yes, more or less.
 
around level 42 (out of 60) they start to get obscure. like 'fooz' and 'warth' and other words that look totally made up and were used by some drunk scottish pig keeper once after he stubbed his toe.
@Tonepoet student friend(s)? what nationality?
 
I'm more acquainted with the second definition Merriam-Webster provides. Also I meant peer more in the sense of people who are not experts in the language. I rarely ever heard the word used outside of television or contexts of gossip.
 
Why don't the donate what they want/have in the first place?
Is this based on some kind of wagering?
 
Quick question, how many people need to approve an edit? I just approved one and it's still the same, just with an overview about mine and the original editors stats.
 
Take note of their exemplary sentence more than their actual definition though.
 
7:47 PM
Found it, I was blind
 
@Færd No not at all.
I don't get it either, but if forced to think about it, I think it's just a game. and the more you play it, the more time you've spent on their site, looking at advertisements.
So maybe some money they get from the ads they send to their charity.
I don't think children's bones are being ground up to make bread because of this.
not many
 
Ah, the Oxford Dictionary of English notes the derogatory nature of the word at least.
 
@Mitch Your logic is impeccable. burns dictionary
@Helmar Two (or one mod).
 
@Randal'Thor Every day, when someone creates a new word, a thing pops into existence.
 
@Mitch And whenever anyone says "I don't believe in words", a thing somewhere stops existing.
 
7:52 PM
Sep 17 '12 at 12:07, by tchrist
Stat rosa pristina nomine; nomina nuda tenemus.
 
Or should that be whenever someone misspells a word?
 
@Tonepoet WTF! 'cohort' is not in any way derogatory!
 
Who are these ODE people?!!!
 
7:54 PM
@Mitch a cohort of dictionary writers?
 
translate: Stat rosa pristina nomine; nomina nuda tenemus.
(from English) Stat rosa pristina nomine; nomina nuda tenemus.
kicks translator
 
@Helmar nice! those bastards
 
Neener neener.
 
@Mitch Well, "often" derogatory is different from always derogatory. Anyway you asked me how I understood the word before and that's just about the sum of it.
 
@Randal'Thor No, that got it right.
 
7:55 PM
@tchrist This is Greek Latin to me.
 
in English Language Learners, Mar 8 '15 at 20:59, by tchrist
Graecum est, non potest legi.
 
@Tonepoet Well, my point is, and I may very well have one, is that you shouldn't believe everything dictionaries tell you.
They are fallible. Unless they agree with me.
Then they are just kidding.
 
@Randal'Thor The original rose remains in name alone, we hold only bare names.
 
@Tonepoet ahh, but it's 'never' which is tellingly different from 'often'
 
@Mitch This was a context derived understanding. =P
 
7:58 PM
@Tonepoet Argh... words can be used metaphorically, but that doesn't change their denotations!
 
@Mitch Right, which is why I'm going to look through a thesaurus...
 
'You are dead to me' doesn't mean that I had a stroke in the brain area that recognizes that you're still alive.
@Tonepoet facepalm
 
@Mitch VTC the second "is" as a duplicate.
 
@Mitch :-)
 
@Randal'Thor if only.
 

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