English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Do you think we're special in this regard?

user227867

I just get easily upset about such things.

user227867

1:39 AM

And yes, I have read the question many times, and thought very deeply about it before posting the comment.

user227867

And yes, I do know what a metric space is, which is why I got interested in the question in the first place.

user227867

However, the commenter doesn't even know what an increasing sequence is (I figured from another question), so he probably does not know about metric spaces either.

user227867

"Have you actually read the question" and "This is a classic problem in mathematics", just trying to show off when you know nothing.

user227867

Sorry to bother you, end rant.

user227867

Please ignore me if you don't like what I say.

1:56 AM

You aren't bothering me.

user227867

Thanks. You take care.

user227867

I hope you and your cats are well.

I think so.

I'm tired.

They're wet.

The sun is setting.

user227867

You should sleep more.

It's cold and raining.

I know.

user227867

2:04 AM

If you feel down, find a nice song to listen to, one that gets you high, and hear it over and over again.

Hello hello.

I've been wrestling with the stupidest syntax error.

Why is there no tool that can point to such an error?

> var state = 'closed';
var message = 'the house is' state;

And I mean point to the exact location, and it should mention what is wrong, rather than "missing ; before statement", which I find misleading.

It's a matter of what the compiler's programmer considered to be the 'chunk' being analysed.

Ehh.

I'm not sure I understand that.

I'm not sure whether the programming language you're using requires specific formatting. If it doesn't, it sort of reads the whole thing as one long line.

Then you just have var state = 'closed' var message ....

Oh, it's Javascript.

I'm sorry.

Maybe it reads it as a long line, but why can't it tell me, then, what I did wrong?

2:12 AM

... It needs to parse this long line, and stops when the next 'token' (word, punctuation, etc) no longer makes sense in any of the options it has available.

What it should say is, "you probably forgot a plus sign there".

@Lawrence Ah OK.

But then it should go back.

And come up with a couple of common errors as options.

@Cerberus Maybe it's objecting to the lack of a semicolon between 'closed' and the var on the next line.

@Lawrence Oh, oops: my actual script did have all the correct semicola.

I've added them.

@Cerberus In programming, one benchmark is zero compiler errors. It almost doesn't matter what the error is - it's just a clue to edit for clarity :) .

@Cerberus That's cheating :) . And makes the transcript harder to follow for later viewers.

@Lawrence Yes, but isn't there a tool that can be more specific?

@Lawrence Hehe.

This is what jshint.com tells me.

It just doesn't tell me what I want to hear, as a stupid person.

2:16 AM

@Cerberus What an unfortunate name. Based on previous comments, I can almost guess that tchrist would drop the 'n'.

Firebug tells me a similar thing, missing semicolon in line 2.

@Lawrence Haha shhh don't tell him.

It's actually better than the average Javascript online thingies.

@Cerberus I think the position it's referring to is the part before state.

Yes.

But it doesn't tell me that.

Why can't it highlight the place where it thinks there is a problem?

Welcome to the art of debugging. :)

I'm just looking for a better debugging thingy.

I had a very long line, and there was one missing plus somewhere in the middle.

I just overlooked it every time I checked the line.

>

var regex = new RegExp(begin + '(?:(?!' + begin + '|' + spam_begin + '|' + end ')[\\s\\S])*' + spam + '(?:(?!' + begin + '|' + end + ')[\\s\\S])*' + end, "g");

This was my line.

2:20 AM

@Cerberus It can (and does) at least highlight the problematic line.

Yes, but 1.) it doesn't tell me where exactly in the line it sees a problem; and 2.) it doesn't alert me to the possibility of a missing +, which should be a common error.

I thought, maybe ReExp needs a space after it. Or maybe I needed to escape something. Or I had to enclose all the parts of the first argument of the RegExp function in quotation marks. Or whatever.

@Cerberus One trick is to drop appropriate (or even inappropriate) portions of the code until the compiler stops complaining. When you've got a small enough 'critical' piece (if it's there, error; if it's deleted, no error), the problem is often obvious.

Or I used a forbidden word for a variable, one that Javascript thought was a command or something.

@Lawrence That's what I did.

But it took much longer than I liked.

@Cerberus Welcome to level 2 of debugging. :)

And that was why I was looking for a tool that could properly highlight OR describe an error like this.

You don't happen to know of such a tool?

2:25 AM

I don't usually use Javascript. Come to think of it, I'm not really a fan of that language.

You don't say.

I use it because I have no choice.

... It's probably because they tried to do what you're asking for - guess the user's intent, and consequently allow more flexibility than is warranted. Some things are 'illegal' in the language, but you don't get an error. Then later, you may find that its interpretation doesn't match yours.

@Cerberus Try asking on chat in one of the programming areas (Programmers.SE?). It would help if you found someone who actually likes JS or at least has been forced to work with it for a long time.

Maybe I was conflating JS with HTML in my previous comment.

One thing that helps when working with less than ideal tools / languages is to program defensively. Work with small units, check that they work as expected, then build something on top of them, and so on.

This allows you to catch problems before they get out of hand.

A needle in a haystack is hard to find, but if the 'stack' is just one piece of hay and one needle, it's not so bad.

You remove the needle once, and reuse the one piece of hay many times.

The analogy is starting to fray.

@Lawrence Right, I understand that. But why not point to the area where the error must lie?

And why not suggest more than one type of error that could explain the code as it is?

@Lawrence Perhaps I should.

@Lawrence Haha, yes, but then I'd need many more lines of code.

@Cerberus Granularity. But it should be simple enough to pinpoint the structure. You can try eclipse. With Java, sometimes it would suggest several solutions, and automatically implement whichever one you chose. Maybe it would do that with JS as well.

@Cerberus It could, but you'd likely get a lot of irrelevant messages if it did.

2:41 AM

They could be ordered by probability?

But the highlighting should be possible, at least in cases like this?

@Cerberus Actually, no. The idea is that you get one piece done really well. Then when you need that again, just call it. It's guaranteed to be 'needle-free', so to speak, because you made it so. If you cut-and-paste, then you need to do the needle hunt on each new piece of code.

23 mins ago, by Cerberus

>

var regex = new RegExp(begin + '(?:(?!' + begin + '|' + spam_begin + '|' + end ')[\\s\\S])*' + spam + '(?:(?!' + begin + '|' + end + ')[\\s\\S])*' + end, "g");

I'd have had to split this into many lines before it would have helped me spot the error sooner?

@Cerberus The message is just a clue; more clues don't necessarily help.

@Cerberus Yes, if eclipse works with JS, it goes beyond highlighting - it actually fixes it for you.

@Cerberus I can see at least two big chunks, one on either side of "+ spam +". You could try working with each of them separately first, testing on appropriate strings, of course.

(I need to go. Feel free to continue, and I'll pick up the conversation upon my return.)

@Lawrence I'm looking at Eclipse. It seems to be a bit of a hassle, I seem to have to download and install(?) many different files in order to get it set up, but perhaps I'll do that!

@Lawrence Mmm why do you see two chunks?

It's just one long concatenation of elements for a variable?

Debugging it by just commenting out half of the line , then a quarter, etc., seems more efficient than writing this line as several lines in the first place.

Adios!

@Lawrence I'm afraid Eclipse is way out of my league.

Part of a sub-part of a sub-part of the Javascript part of Eclipse already requires compiling source code, which I have no idea how to do.

And there are a ton of other required parts and sub-parts.

Oh, well.

user227867

Woof!

user227867

2:55 AM

Hi Lawrence!

@Cerberus I'm back for a short while.

@JasperLoy Hi Jasper!

@Cerberus There are probably all-in-one bundles that you can download.

@Cerberus Aren't there two big chunks? I see: begin + (first big chunk) + spam + (second big chunk) + end.

@Cerberus Yeah, a bit like having to properly learn Latin to understand one phrase.

(I'm off again. Catch you around!)

@Lawrence Alas, nope.

Begin features thrice.

Oh, in that way.

Well, yes.

But anyway! I've found a tool!

ESlint.

It highlights errors!

It even underlines them as you type!

eslint.org/demo

@Lawrence Haha, exactly.

@JasperLoy Woof!

user227867

8:48 AM

The woof frightened everyone.

10:07 AM

:)

11:28 AM

Yay!

Now onwards and upwards. Next stop, 1000 (cc @Kit :-P )

I didn't see any of those.

Well, maybe a few.

I put the new guys on the comment flags because those are usually the easiest ones.

11:47 AM

Is it possible for ordinary users to rename rooms that were automatically created from comment-trail discussions?

@Lawrence Only mods and room owners can rename rooms.

@Randal'Thor How does one become a room owner?

Ask one to be one.

I'm not sure if any of the participants are automatically made room owners in those automatically created rooms.

Depends on whether you're talking about rooms created by mods moving comments or by two commenters moving to chat themselves.

Commenters don't get room ownership.

11:50 AM

@KitZ.Fox May I please be assigned as an owner of the linked chat room?

What's the purpose of the room?

glares @Rand

@KitZ.Fox It's to discuss where the community should draw the line when closing questions and (separately) when deleting questions.

puts tail between legs

@Lawrence OK. And you want ownership in order to change the title? Or do you need it for other reasons?

@KitZ.Fox At the moment, it's just to change the title. (Though I haven't thought up a snazzy title yet.)

11:53 AM

@Lawrence OK. Read this about room ownership please.

@Lawrence Once you've changed the title, you can be de-ROed if you want.

Either by a mod or by thine own hand.

@KitZ.Fox Ok. Moving over the linked page.

@KitZ.Fox Hey, I wrote that! :-D

Also, I should update it to reflect the more recent changes to the main meta post.

@Lawrence There's more to room ownership than changing the label. I want to make sure you know what else you are responsible for. By becoming a room owner, you are essentially a deputy chat mod.

So the expectations for your behavior increase.

But anyway, it's all good. Just let a mod know if you have trouble or need help and don't abuse your privileges.

And please don't make everyone a room owner all willy-nilly.

@KitZ.Fox Ok, I've read the page. Thanks @KitZ.Fox and @Randal'Thor for the privilege.

12:00 PM

Have fun! I hope you come up with some cool new policy.

Damn, I didn't have enough food with this antibiotic and now I think I might throw up.

@KitZ.Fox Already having fun :) . The discussion with suməlic was great! We have the beginnings of one policy so far - instead of quickly voting to close questions that lack info, edit it first, then invite the OP to re-edit. This gets some good bits up quickly, and gives the OP an example and motivation to re-edit.

Anyone interested in the topic is welcome to join in.

@KitZ.Fox Sorry to hear you're unwell. Hope you recover soon.

12:25 PM

I just emptied the contents of my stomach, so I think I'm fine now. Thanks.

user227867

1:23 PM

@KitZ.Fox What is the antibiotic for? Asthma?

user227867

I just had dinner with my mum at a French restaurant. Only 10 USD per person for a 4 course set.

@JasperLoy Such a bargain!

@JasperLoy Yeah, I developed an infection from the initial asthma treatment. I should be fine once it clears up.

user227867

I oscillated among asthma, bronchitis, and pneumonia throughout elementary school. I have probably consumed an entire wardrobe full of medicine.

Yuck.

Anyway, I am going to go eat breakfast and do some errands. See you!

user227867

OK!

Anonymous

2:01 PM

Anonymous

That picture is of the Olympics closing ceremony. Thanks to the juxtaposition, there's been a lot of discussion of the obrigado–arigatō myth, although unfortunately most of that discussion amounts to "It's true! Arigatō is borrowed from obrigado."

@snailplane Pretty sure that's been debunked, hasn't it?

Anonymous

@tchrist Oh, yes.

Anonymous

That's why I called it a myth :-)

Good, I thought so. It's too tidy not to be folk=fake etymology.

Anonymous

2:05 PM

Arigatō dates back over a thousand years and has a well accepted etymology (from ari 'to be' and katasi 'difficult to ~'), so it was in use before any Japanese–Portuguese contact.

@snailplane No, it's the other way around.

@Cerberus How's that again? priberam.pt/dlpo/obrigado

Obrigado is obviously from arigato.

"Obviously"?

> From Latin obligātus ‎(“obliged”), past participle of obligō ‎(“I bind in obligation”).

I didn't know the Japanese were in Imperial Rome.

Mitch

2:20 PM

@tchrist They got around

Didn't you see Kon-tiki?

But, in the interests of actual science, a recent article said that the populationing of America wasn't via the Bering land bridge but boats along the coast. or something.

@tchrist Oh, nonsense.

Don't believe "experts".

Anonymous

@KitZ.Fox Sounds unfun :-( Feel better soon.

Mitch

@Cerberus experts are idiots

idiots are too, but don't believe an expert if they tell you that

ten-thirtienses! BBS

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