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9:01 AM
\o
 
does there exists a set whose lebesgue measure is any natural number ?
popped out in me
 
what do you mean with that?
 
yes
[0,n]
 
Any interval $[m,n]$ with $m<n$ has Lebesgue measure $n-m$
 
yes
[0,n]
 
9:10 AM
For any real number you can construct even a meagre set with that number as measure I think
 
yes
 
And you can construct a dense open subset with that number as measure, too.
(both can be done using the same idea)
 
Am I being a noob here, or did he get x and y wrong? https://xkcd.com/467/
x-------
|
|
y , right?
or is it just a variable, and therefore doesn't matter?
 
why dense open subset ?
any nice property it uses?
@SteamyRoot
 
Uhhh
It uses the fact that a countable union of open sets is still open
and that the rationals are dense
@RaisingAgent x being horizontal and y being vertical is just a convention.
 
9:21 AM
Ok,nice
 
He labelled his axes with "girls" and "cups", so there should be no confusion either way
 
:)
 
@SteamyRoot Can I tell my Math prof to gtfo with his X and Y convetions? :P
Cuz we have some people in class who still do it 'wrong' :)
 
:D
 
I'm not stopping you, but I'm not responsible for the consequences either.
Conventions definitely have their uses
Not abiding by them should never be considered a mistake, but of course, it's up to the person who doesn't follow them to then make clear what he means (for example, by properly labelling his axes using his own notation)
 
9:40 AM
Hey what can this mean - (::)
(: :)
laughing in all directions ?
smiling
ok a measure que.
$E$ is a non-measurable subset of $[0,1]$
$f : [0,1] \rightarrow \mathbb{R}$
$f(x) = -0.5$ when $x \in E$ and $0$ otherwise.
then what can we say about the measurability of $f$ , $|f|$
 
What's the preimage of $(-0.6,-0.4)$?
 
is it $E$
@AlessandroCodenotti
 
So is $f$ measurable or not?
 
@BalarkaSen I think he likes being "an eccentric" and does it for show.
His talks are great though. The one I linked was really cool
 
so $f^{-1}$ is non-measurable so $f$ is non measurable ?
 
9:54 AM
How is a measurable function defined?
 
@Danu Fair enough. I like that anyway :)
 
$f : D \rightarrow [-\infty,\infty]$
where $D$ is a measurable set
 
uhhh
Not quite, no
 
That's not the usual definition of a measurable function
 
9:57 AM
satisfies 4 equivalent definitions
ok
 
@BalarkaSen So if I have both the cohomology rings in real/rational and $\Bbb Z_2$ coefficients of some manifold, can I get it in $\Bbb Z$-coefficients?
 
Let $X,Y$ be spaces and $\Sigma_X, \Sigma_Y$ be the collections of subsets of $X$ and $Y$ which are measurable.
Then $f: X \to Y$ is measurable iff $f^{-1}(E) \in \Sigma_X$ for all $E \in \Sigma_Y$
("the preimage of a measurable set is measurable")
 
so here $f^{-1}[-0.6,-0.4] is ?$
 
Well?
 
all those $x$ in $E$
0 or 0.5
 
10:00 AM
So which $x$ are mapped to something inside that interval?
 
@Danu I doubt it.
 
all those $x$ in E
 
Yup.
So the preimage of that interval is $E$, which you said was a non-measurable set
 
yes
 
Hence by the definition...
 
10:02 AM
@BalarkaSen My supervisor seemed to imply that I could... I also found that strange to hear
 
but here $E $ doesnot belong to $\sum_{X}$
as $E$ is non-measurable ?
 
Yup
 
To add a detail to SteamyRoot's definition, which is correct, if you have a function $(X,\mathcal{A},\mu)\to\Bbb R$ then it's assumed you're using the Borel $\sigma$-algebra on $\Bbb R$ when discussing measurability of functions unless otherwise specified
 
f is non measurable then ?
 
yup
 
10:03 AM
So you can say that $f$ is measurable if $f^{-1}(A)$ is measurable for all open $A$
 
so $|f| $ is non measurable then
Ok
so a measurable function pulls back measurable sets to measurable sets right ?
 
@Danu H_n(X; Q) is literally H_n(X) tensor Q, so you recover the homology upto torsion. I think you need all the Z/k's to recover it in full
 
Can I get all the even-order torsion information from $\Bbb Z_2$ at least?
 
Not sure.
 
10:47 AM
Hi @Krijn
 
Heya @bala
@BalarkaSen Where can I read up on Hom-scheme's, you think?
 
shrug
nlab? P:
 
Probably
 
SBM
11:16 AM
Um, what is a mellin transform?
 
@SBM It's a transform of a function to an integral, you'd learn about it in a class on Fourier Analysis
The book I read on Fourier uses them, I guess most of them do
So any of those books will help you
 
SBM
@Krijin Like say, the Laplace transform
 
Preeeeeeeetty close to it, yeah
 
SBM
I'm just a school student who encountered it being mentioned in some book.
 
What are you reading
 
SBM
11:27 AM
By the way, aren't Fourier transforms the same cool stuff that is used in signal processing? Looking forward to learn more soon. I've just started twelfth grade.
 
@SBM Yeah, and they give those cool .gifs
 
SBM
Pretty awesome.
I do not know if this qualifies as a math related doubt, but it's got to something with optimisation
 
https://oeis.org/A058303
What do you think, does this integral have any chance of making it into a formula?
$$\int _0^{16}\frac{1}{2} \left(1-\text{sgn}\left(\frac{\vartheta (t)+\Im\left(\log \left(\zeta \left(i t+\frac{1}{2}\right)\right)\right)}{\pi }-n+\frac{3}{2}\right)\right)dt$$
 
SBM
Yikes, do you guys remember all of those numbers, that link looks scary? Suppose I have two quadratic functions,
Back to my doubt,
Suppose I have two quadratic functions and I need to keep them both as low as possible altogether and ensure that it fits a criterion something like an equality constraint.
I um want to sort of know what a good strategy is to do that kind of thing, I know my description is most likely vague since I do not know the proper technical terminology for it.
 
11:48 AM
Can you give us a more concrete example of what you want?
Let's say these functions are $f(x) = ax^2 + bx + c$ and $g(x) = dx^2 + ex + f$ with $a,b,c,d,e,f$ some numbers
 
good night folks
 
@Daminark you keep pinging me to say hello about 2 hours before I actually wake up^^
 
12:03 PM
:D
 
12:49 PM
let's do this
running
 
1:04 PM
if I have a function defined like such f(n+1) = n + 2 and I should calculate f(1) Does this mean that I should do f(1+1) or how should i think?
 
Hey @Kaj long time no see
 
Hey there @AlessandroCodenotti. Yeah, I've been trying to be active on main in recent days. My activity on here waxes and wanes...I've been spending my free time more over on chess.com haha
 
I see, they've put a chessboard in the entrance of my uni's library
I played a match with a classmate and lost, I think that's enough chess for a while for me :P
 
That's pretty sweet. I stocked the undergrad lounge with chess boards back at UGA. A lot of people there play
I love having actual OTB games. Before college, I knew very few people who knew how to play, so college was refreshing
 
1:10 PM
over-the-board
as opposed to online
 
Ah, I agree, it's way better
 
Hi @KajHansen!
 
Hey there @Balarka. What've you been studying recently?
 
Things and stuff. Mostly foliations :) How about you?
My exams just ended so I have a lot of time to study other stuff too
 
I haven't done much math of late. I'll look at some representation theory from time to time, and I want to start delving into applied stuff right now: coding theory and implementations of cryptosystems
I have a decent knowledge of the theory behind some public-key algorithms, but putting them into practice has a whole slew of challenges to overcome that aren't presented in the theory
I've been playing chess and teaching myself to play trumpet in recent weeks instead of math
 
1:15 PM
@BalarkaSen So if I take the s.e.s. $\Bbb Z\to \Bbb Z \to \Bbb Z_2$ I should get a l.e.s. on the level of (Cech, and therefore singular) cohomology, right?
 
@Danu That's right. I think the boundary map is known as the Bockstein homomorphism or something
 
Yeah
It confuses me a bit though
 
[Here's a bomb from the physicists] Let $\int \delta ()dx$ be the dirac delta distribution. Then $\delta^n(x)$ is well defined
 
Since I have a manifold which I think is supposed to have torsion-free cohomology
 
@KajHansen Nice! I dunno much about representation theory.
 
1:17 PM
but I also know that $H^2(M;\Bbb Z_2)\cong \Bbb Z_2$ and $H^2(M;\Bbb Z)=0$
 
I once tried to study ECM and ECPP algorithms
they weren't bad. a bit black magical
 
That seems to say that I should have some torsion in $H^3(M;\Bbb Z)$
 
@Danu What's the dimension of this manifold?
 
8
 
It's pretty interesting @BalarkaSen. One of the big ideas that appeals to me is the computational side of things. By finding faithful morphisms of some weird group into a group of matrices, we can work with the group a lot easier since the group multiplication can be computed as matrix multiplication, which is very well understood with super-fast algorithms
Ali was in here a few months ago telling me about algorithms that can multiply matrices close to $n^2$ time, which blew my mind
 
1:21 PM
@Danu Wait, how can this happen? Wouldn't H^2(M; Z/2) be isomorphic to H^2(M; Z) otimes Z/2?
Z/2 is a field...
 
@BalarkaSen So what I know is the following
$\pi_1=0,\pi_2=\Bbb Z_2$, which is therefore also $H_2(M;\Bbb Z)$
 
Yes.
 
Then by universal coefficients $H^2(M;\Bbb Z)=0$
 
Oh, for cohomology. Sure.
 
the fact that $H^2(M;\Bbb Z_2)=\Bbb Z_2$, I'm just taking from a paper (Borel & Hirzebruch's homogenenous spaces papers).
 
1:25 PM
Well there's definitely something wrong in view of my observation. $H^2(-; \Bbb Z/2) \cong H^2(-; \Bbb Z) \otimes \Bbb Z/2$ by UCT
Err, no. I am thinking of homology again aren't I
 
Why is that by UCT?
I'm trying to understand what you're saying
 
@Danu Ok, yeah. $H^2(M; \Bbb Z/2)$ is isomorphic to $\hom(H_2(M; \Bbb Z), \Bbb Z/2) = \Bbb Z/2$ by UCT?
 
Yeah, you're trying to use the long exact sequence of homology I think
@BalarkaSen Careful, I'm doing $H^2(M;\Bbb Z)$!
 
Yeah, yeah. Sorry. So I agree with what your paper says.
 
Right. Yeah I think that's fine
In any case, returning to the start, I seem to obtain that $H^3(M;\Bbb Z)$ has torsion, don't I?
 
1:31 PM
I am verifying that, let me see.
I just tend to get lost in algebra...
 
So I have an exact sequence which has the following piece
$H^2(M;\Bbb Z)=0 \to H^2(M;\Bbb Z_2)=\Bbb Z_2 \to H^3(M;\Bbb Z)$
 
Right... that definitely has a Z/2 inside it
 
makes me sad
 
Why did you think it's torsion-free?
 
Dunno... It would make my life easier, and I think my supervisor thought so.
 
1:35 PM
@KajHansen I see. I am not very knowledgeable on computational mathematics, although it used to fascinate me a lot.
@Danu Sounds like you have a good topic to bring up to your supervisor next time you visit him
 
Right.
In any case, I need to figure out the ring structure too
I'm hoping naturality of the cup product will save my life
But that l.e.s. doesn't seem to even tell me what exactly $H^3$ is
I have $0\to \Bbb Z_2 \to H^3\overset{\cdot 2}{\to} H^3 \to \Bbb Z_2$
 
Maybe Z oplus Z/2? Dunno
Nah that can't work
 
So I know some things
I know that $H^3(M;\Bbb R)=0$, actually
So it's pure torsion
 
Oh, that is nice.
 
It could just be $\Bbb Z_2$
with the last map being an iso
But $\Bbb Z_4$ could work equally well
 
1:47 PM
I got $\Bbb Z^2$ for the Hopf link and $\langle x,y,z|zx=xy=yz\rangle$ for the trefoil @Balarka
 
fundamental groups of knot complements? ^
(in that case, I think you need just 2 generators for the trefoil)
 
@Alessandro Wee on the Hopf link. Hmm on the trefoil.
Yeah, that sounds right
 
Ah, wait the second can be simplified, it's the same group as $\langle x,y|xy=yxyx^{-1}\rangle$
 
I would like to write that as $z = xyx^{-1}$, $x = yzy^{-1}$ and $x = yzy^{-1}$
@Alessandro Yeah, in short, xyx = yxy
That's called the braid presentation, I think
You could also show it's isomorphic to <x, y|x^2 = y^3>
 
That's the one I know
 
1:51 PM
@Danu It's a little harder to get geometrically and a lot specific though. I guess you use the symmetry of the torus knot
 
In my course we did all the $p,q$ knots in one go
 
'suppose the loop which goes about the torus is x and the interior circle of the solid torus it bounds is y
I am really fond of the Wirtinger presentation (one Alessandro found) because it's a lot general
 
more general, you mean?
What does it generalize to?
 
It says any knot group has a presentation of the form $\langle a_i, b_i, c_i | a_i = b_j c_k b_j^{-1}\rangle$
 
oh, yeah?
 
1:55 PM
(@Alessandro: Exercise)
Yup
@Alessandro BTW, different way to see Hopf link has link group $\Bbb Z^2$ is to note that the complement of the Hopf link deformation retracts to a torus.
The first step in doing this is to realize $S^3$ as union of two solid torii glued along a diffeomorphism $T^2 \to T^2$ of their boundary. There are formal ways to do it but you should convince yourself that if you take a torus in $\Bbb R^3$, the complement is a punctured torus.
 
@BalarkaSen At every crossing I get relations of the form $a_ib_k=c_ja_i$ or $b_ka_i=a_ic_j$ depending on orientation
 
You could also say $S^3 = \partial(D^4) \cong \partial(D^2 \times D^2) = \partial D^2 \times D^2 \cup_{\partial D^2 \times \partial D^2} D^2 \times \partial D^2$
Once you've done that, think of Hopf link as union of the "core circles" of the two solid torii
@AlessandroCodenotti Right
@arctic You didn't see anything
I have to go out for a bit. See ya
 
I don't really see that retraction, I'lk think about it
Bye
 
2:11 PM
Is there some things to look at about the geometric properties of normed vector spaces? Like for example curvature of $\Bbb R^n$ with $\|\cdot\|_p$ norm, $0<p≤\infty$.
 
You can look at the unit sphere
It's kind of fun
 
You mean as in look at the pictures? :)
 
Yeah
 
SBM
Should be interesting.
 
you have to be aware that when you look at those pictures you are viewing them as subsets of $\Bbb R^n$ with $2$-norm, so the unit spheres "think of themselves" in a totally different way than those pictures make them seem
 
2:14 PM
No, I'm saying the spheres in hte $p$-norms.
They're fun
 
I'm not sure what you mean, do you want to look at the $p$-sphere and give it $2$-norm, look at the $2$-sphere and give it $p$-norm or look at the $p$-sphere and give it $p$-norm?
Because in the last case the pictures you draw have almost nothing to do with the geometry of the sphere in my opinion
 
SBM
I'm curious as to what these norms are.
 
@SBM $\|(x_1,...,x_n)\|_p = \sqrt[p]{\sum_k x_k^p}$
 
@s.harp Draw the $p$-sphere in $\Bbb R^3$, I mean.
or $\Bbb R^2$
 
I would not call it the p-sphere...
maybe "the unit sphere in $(\Bbb R^n,\|\cdot\|_p)$"
 
2:18 PM
@Danu But when you "look at" this picture, you are intrinsically giving it the $2$-norm
 
SBM
Ok this seems to me like its related to vector addition
 
@s.harp No?
 
@s.harp presumably Danu is saying "look at the graph of $x_1^p+\cdots+x_n^p=1$," no?
 
@arctictern you are right, but that is too long :) how about the sphere$_p$? :D
 
Yeah, of course @arctic
There is nothing intrinsically 2-norm about drawing pictures in $\Bbb R^2$, @s.harp
 
2:20 PM
Hey guys, anyone good at tensor products in hilbert spaces. Specifically, I want to understand whether that $\vec{s}=\vec{v} \otimes \vec{u}$ can be decomposed into tensor products and $\vec{t}=\vec{v} \otimes \vec{u} - \vec{u} \otimes \vec{v}$ cannot is purely an algebraic phenomenon since both $\vec{s}$ and $\vec{t}$ are just vectors in the larger hilbert space geometrically. Where is this notion of separability to tensor products being stored in the geometric picture?
 
you mean these pictures?
 
yeah
 
But these pictures, when I want to get geometric meaning from them I assume they have the $2$-norm, because I have other "intrinsic" way of looking at pictures in $\Bbb R^n$ in my brain
 
That's where you lose me :P
 
What I mean is look at the infty norm picture, it looks flat, but this flatness only comes from the fact that I am treating the pictures as a subset of $\Bbb R^n$ with $2$ norm
 
2:23 PM
@Secret I'd relegate that to an algebraic phenomenon. in $\Lambda^k V$ for example, pure wedges represent oriented $k$-subspaces, but there are things that aren't pure wedges which must be formal combinations of them. one can depict distributivity of the wedge geometrically, but I don't find that helps grok the idea. and tensor products I don't even have much geometric intuition for.
 
so when I get the geometric idea "this sphere is flat almost everywhere" its not a statement about sphere$_p$ with $p$-norm but rather sphere$_p$ with $2$-norm
 
Notice that $\dim(V\otimes W)=\dim(V)\dim(W)$ but pairs of vectors in $V,W$ have form a space of dimension $\dim(V\oplus W)=\dim(V)+\dim(W)$, so it's definitely not just pairs of vectors.
 
does that make my point make sense?
 
since the other norms are not riemannian metrics, it doesn't make sense to say "flat" or "curved" with respect to any of them except the 2-norm
 
You can talk about something like Ricci curvature for connected metric spaces
 
2:26 PM
ugh
 
although you might need some kind of a measure also
I just learned this from the video @Danu linked yesterday :)
 
arctic: hmm, I see, thanks, let me think more about it with this information
 
@arctictern hahaha
 
SBM
Um, which video?
 
Thats why I am interested in lookiung at these other normed vector spaces
 
2:28 PM
but the notion of non-negative Ric becomes something like "entropy increases along optimal transport" something something
 
actually what is the link of video ?
sounds interesting
 
@s.harp Here's a shape from $\Bbb{R}^9$
 
huh?
 
$S^2 \times S^2$
 
2:38 PM
That embeds into $\Bbb R^6$ :)
 
Ooops, got the space wrong
 
Ricci curvature is just the trace of the Riemann curvature tensor
You can define it for any space equipped with an affine connection, but it's only going to be "nice" on a Riemannian manifold
 
@SteamyRoot So what about spaces with no tangent bundle, i.e. anything except a manifold?
 
Never heard of anyone defining Ricci curvature on such spaces.
 
That's the whole point...
 
2:41 PM
The only thing you can really talk about in these vector spaces are geodesics. It can also be that you are of the opinion that the Lebesgue measure has nothing to do with euclidean space so you also get that in such a case
I need to go somewhere that has faster internet, I'll come back soon
 
3:10 PM
If I have a finite Abelian group and I know that the homomorphism $2\cdot$ has kernel $\Bbb Z_2$, what can I conclude? That there is only one summand $\Bbb Z_p$ with $p$ even? Anything more?
 
Hey the coefficients $a_n$ of the Laurent series have this $(\xi - z)^{n+1}$ term is this n supposed to be the same as the n of coefficient? As of the proofs I've seen I strongly believe so but in my script they are suddenly noted with different indexes, e.g. k and a but might be an error??
I mean the term in the integral
 
@Felix.C Yeah, I think the n is supposed to be the same
You can always check in some textbooks on complex analysis, of course.
 
@Danu if you have any finite abelian group $A$ that does not have a $\Bbb Z_{2^n}$ coefficient, then (I think) $2\cdot$ is an invertible homomorphism, and then on $A\oplus \Bbb Z_{2^n}$ the homomorphism should have kernel $\Bbb Z_2$. So it seems no other information about hte group can be gotten from that condition
 
Yeah, that's what I thought. Sad :(
@s.harp You don't need $2^n$ though, just $2n$
$\Bbb Z_6$ works
 
Yes but the decomposition is unique if you use $p^n$ for $p$ prime, right?
(as in what terms appear)
(not how the isomorphism works)
 
3:23 PM
Oh, I don't know anything about algebra
 
me neither
 
You can decompose any finite abelian group as a direct sum of $\mathbb{Z}_q$ with $q$ a prime power
 
uniquely (that is what powers appear are unique)
 
I see---so how do I decompose $\Bbb Z_6$? 2+3?
 
yes
 
3:25 PM
of course, every prime power can appear multiple times...
 
How do you do the decomposition?
(the proof)
 
I think you show if $p^n\mid\, |G|$ that then $G$ contains elements of order $p^n$, then you take all these and show they are a subgroup
then a subgroup of order $p^n$ has to be $ (Z_{p^n})^K$ and what you do is you divide this guy out to get a smaller group where you do the thing iteratively or something
 
OK. Thanks
 
You have to be careful
 
abelian groups are an abelian category, so the last step is ok :)
 
3:30 PM
$4$ may divide the order of a group, but it doesn't have to contain $\mathbb{Z}_4$
 
Ok quick question: I think that every prime number if you take the square root and round to the closest odd number it is prime. Is that true?
 
oh thats right
 
You start with the prime decomposition of the group
But for each of the factors, you have to work out how they split
 
wow, i feel so free after i walked very long
 
I was thinking about it and spent a while testing it and didn't get to any failures
 
3:31 PM
It is better to take a walk rather than a nap!
 
@DownChristopher If you call 1 not prime then nope ;)
 
@Danu We can exclude one
Sorry 1
 
Two as well?
 
(since $\sqrt 2\simeq 1$)
 
@TimTheEnchanter Yes
@Danu Heh no $\LaTeX$ here
 
3:33 PM
443 is prime
square root of 443 is very close to 21
 
There is latex here @DownChristopher
nice find, Steamy!
 
@Danu By here I mean on my computer
@SteamyRoot Thanks
 
I wanted to check
 
@SteamyRoot Well played
 
3:35 PM
Thanks and bye
 
If this were true, we would have a great method for finding large prime candidates
 
How'd you find 443, @Steamy?
Just try non-prime odd numbers, square and look for nearby prime?
 
It was a pure guess, really.
I just wanted a 3-digit prime, and that's the first one that came up in my mind
 
heh
 
When I think of three digit primes, my first question is "Is 101 prime?"
 
3:38 PM
I figured it wasn't going to be true, but given how dense primes are for small 2-digit odd integers, I thought going with 3-digit numbers was likely to be more succesfull
 
yeah, right
 
101 is prime, yes
But it wouldn't be a counterexample, since its square root is $> 10$ and thus the nearest odd integer is 11, which is prime
 
Well it was funnier in my head.
 
the root of 67 is 8.1
closest odd integer is 9 which is not prime
 
3:42 PM
@TimTheEnchanter lol
 
By the way about my question with curvature on normed spaces, there are really many geodesics on $\|\cdot\|_\infty$ which makes it super hard for me to look at geodesic flows
for example $(\sum_n 2^{-n}|x|,x)$ is a geodesic
 
4:00 PM
i visit my teacher in my old school, he is very good at english
 
SBM
I didn't imagine it to be this interesting; thanks for teaching me something new
 
Sup guys
Whats the difference between a magma and an algebra[ic structure]?
 
The definition?
 
Let me copy and paste
 
haalelooyah
 
4:06 PM
An algebraic structure is a set S which has one or more binary operations ∘1,∘2,…,∘n defined on all the elements of S×S, and is denoted (S,∘1,∘2,…,∘n).
Oh
Closure
Thanks :]
 
4:55 PM
if anyone wants a stab at this, the professor originally gave it as homework but decided it was too hard after he couldn't figure it out himself
"construct a surjective group homomorphism $\{e^{i2\pi q}|q \in \mathbb Q\} \to \{ 1, -1, i, -i \}$"
I tried playing around with treating points on a circle and picking the point that's "closest to", in some sense, the arc of between the two points, but it didnt have the homomorphism property
 
@GFauxPas The target group is just $\Bbb Z_4$ right?
 

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