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8:00 PM
@TedShifrin oh yes, working out examples is very important, otherwise noone will even try to help you
 
Ah, the vampire speaks philosophically.
 
sadly enough my brain is too busy for math, right now 1+1=3
 
Better go back to cooking, vampire.
 
ok
 
@TedShifrin hi :)
 
8:03 PM
Hi @Liad.
 
@Ted we would have that $\ell$ would be an ever smaller number for which $\overline k$ becomes $\overline 0$
 
Hi @Liad
 
@Astyx hi! :-)
 
oh my goodness. I think I almost cried two times. Once out of frustration, once our of joy :P Thanks Ted. I'm slightly thrilled and traumatised by modular arithmetic now XD
 
Perfect, @ShaV. So you have a complete proof ... and you understand it! :)
I apologize for taking you out of your original line of reasoning, but it looked really confusing to me. And I think this way — once you understand it — shows the main ideas very clearly with very little technicality.
Just remember Euclid!!
 
8:08 PM
@TedShifrin do you have energy for a question of mine?
 
Maybe. Are you done with Cantor?
 
YES , thanks god
didn't like that question :P
 
Yea, I'm seeing the differences now!
 
LOL, @Liad, I did like it, but it requires thinking like analysis a bit.
It also pays great dividends when you have more stuff later in the course.
 
@TedShifrin i like calculus, but something didn't work out for me in that question
 
8:11 PM
It's not an easy question. Anyhow, what's next?
 
$f(x,y) = 1 $ if$ x\in \Bbb Q$ and $2y$ otherwise
 
OK, I know that function. What about it?
 
@Liad interesting
 
i need to show $\int \overline \int f(x,y) dx dy$ in the inervals $[0,1] \ ^ 2$
exists
i think it is 1, @TedShifrin am i correct?
 
Heya @AlessandroCodenotti
 
8:13 PM
Hi chat
 
Hi @Alessandro
 
ohi
 
Yes, it's $1$, @Liad.
I assume you're supposed to do more than that?
 
ok, i explained it as follows:
 
8:15 PM
What are you learning about in topology now? @perturbative
 
it is equals $\int_0^1 (\int_0^{1/2} 1 dx + \int_{1/2}^{1}2y dx) dy$ @TedShifrin fine so far?
 
Hi @Alessandro
 
Bonsoir @Astyx
 
@AlessandroCodenotti Still on Normal Spaces, I should go onto Urysohn's Metrization Theorem in the next week or so
 
Oh, wait, I was too hasty, @Liad. Hold on a minute.
 
8:17 PM
How's things going with Algebraic Topology? @AlessandroCodenotti
 
Well, it's indeed $1$, but definitely not for that reason o.O
 
Nice, I know what the theorem says, but I've never seen a proof
 
@Liad: What you have isn't right. What if $y$ is tiny?
 
Pretty well, but I can't find the time to read about homology @Perturbative
 
hm, ok. what i was thinking is that the sup in any partition of $[0,1/2]$ will be $1$ , and of $[1/2 , 1$ will be $2y$
 
8:18 PM
That would be right if you were breaking up the $y$ interval!
 
given $y \in [0,1]$
 
But if $y=0$, you're clearly wrong.
Or if $y=1/4$, you're clearly wrong.
 
i am thinking of $y$ as constant in the inner integral
because of that i am prefering $x$ in the $[0,1/2]$ interval
 
But it's going to depend on whether $0\le y\le 1/2$ or whether $1/2<y\le 1$.
 
yea
this is what i did
 
8:20 PM
Breaking up the $x$ interval isn't relevant.
No, it's not what you did.
The inner integral is $dx$.
Is it supposed to be $dy\,dx$ instead of $dx\,dy$?
 
I can barely find time to start Algebraic Topology either, time management, as I've come to realize, is a very valuable skill to learn in second year :(
 
no , $dx dy $ is how the question is written
 
OK. So you really need to think about the upper integral $dx$ as a function of $y$ :)
 
so given $y$
 
Ted will say that if we weren't always in chat we'd know algebraic topology by now :P
 
8:22 PM
@Alessandro: But we like having you here.
6
 
we need to see what is the integral of $\overline \int_0^1 f(x,y) dx$,correct ? @TedShifrin
 
(I starred that)
 
@Ted That reminds me of something I was wondering about a while back. Do you know a smooth way of getting Z/2 cohomology? I can do it with duals of submanifolds but that's not really what I want.
 
Right, @Liad. That's a function of $y$.
 
@TedShifrin i dont understand why it is not what i wrote before?
 
8:23 PM
Hi
 
I think what I want is a notion of curvature in Z/2. :P
 
Thing is I haven't even been on chat much recently, I've probably been in here about 10 mins the past month
 
@MikeM: No, although it might be worth taking a gander at Griffiths/Morgan/Friedlander/et al rational homotopy stuff, all done with forms.
 
how are you all
 
Hi Zach
Fine and you ?
 
8:24 PM
Cuz what you wrote before was wrong, @Liad :P
 
Tired
 
Hey again guys
 
Has to happend
 
What is the upper integral if $y\in [0,1/2]$?
 
Hi again @Daminark
 
8:25 PM
Hi, Zach, Demonark.
 
Hi @Balarka @mike @dami Zach
 
if $y\in[0,1/2]$ , then we prefer $1$
 
hey
 
So many people arriving at once
 
@TedShifrin Originally due to Sullivan, of course. I want a geometric origin of SW classes.
 
8:25 PM
if $y\in[1/2,1]$ we prefer $2y$ , @TedShifrin
 
So you integrate $1$ on $[0,1]$.
 
Huh ?
 
Yes, so you integrate $2y$ with respect to $x$ on $[0,1]$ and ...
 
@Ted Today I gave my math class a geometry puzzle
 
I can do w_1 and w_2 with representation theory of pi_1, more or less, but no idea how to do higher classes. And if still feels wrong.
 
8:26 PM
I understand, @MikeM ... But I don't know.
 
I was out for a bit because things are picking up fast. Laci did a rapid review of group theory in class today so that was nice, though there are quite a number of problems :P
So it turns out we're using a bit more Milnor than GP for manifolds
 
Milnor is extremely terse. And doesn't have nearly enough exercises. G&P actually prove a lot more, although Milnor does framed cobordism.
 
I actually like the end stuff in Milnor about P-T
 
@Liad: So the upper integral is $1$ if $0\le y\le 1/2$ and it's $2y$ if $1/2\le y\le 1$.
 
Also his proof of certain genericity results (I don't remember which ones)
 
8:28 PM
In the bazillion number of times I taught diff top, @Balarka, I did that precisely one time (at MIT). All the other times, I did a bit more on deRham cohomology ...
 
But yeah, all in all, I prefer G-P
 
I'll go now
Bye chat
 
@TedShifrin why dont we integrate over $1$ if $y\in [0,1/2] $ (same for 2y ) ?
 
Bonne nuit, @Astyx.
 
Lol I mean our exercises prob won't necessarily come out of there I think, so hopefully that won't be a problem? Though terseness might make it tricky
 
8:29 PM
@Liad: This is all the $dx$ integral, remember? $y$ fixed.
 
G-P should have just added a section on PT. The idea is almost obvious after what they'd done already.
 
@Ted Here's what it was: Fold one corner of a rectangle to the other, then fold the resulting figure along the perpendicular bisector of the side such that we get a resulting quadrilateral. Prove that all 4 vertices lie on one unique circle
 
True
 
What's PT?
 
Pontryagin Thom
 
8:29 PM
@MikeM: They did the Hopf degree theorem (in exercises) instead.
 
It's just a generalization of the Hopf degree (which is framed cobordism theory of 0 manifolds)
 
I know, I just graded it.
 
Interesting, Zach.
 
@TedShifrin huh, i mixed it up. i felt something was wrong
 
I still think the structure of framing on the normal bundle is very natural.
 
8:30 PM
A little bit on cyclic quadrilaterals. You didn't need that though, if you just notices that two of the angles are right, and therefore one of the diagonals must be a diameter for both circles
 
Zach, which other?
 
Syllabus doesn't mention PT explicitly, but it says we're spending a week on Hopf-degree theorem
 
One sec, let me try this
 
so $\overline \int_0^1 f(x,y) = 1 $if $y\in[0,1/2] $ and $2y $ otherwise
 
@Ted The fold you created is the side
 
8:31 PM
I fold one vertex over to the opposite one, I assume?
Right, @Liad. Now integrate $dy$.
 
Correct.
I realized that while folding a hall pass I got
 
I'm still lost, Zach.
 
@TedShifrin 1.25
 
Ok so, fold a rectangle so that one vertex meets the opposite
Then, fold it again, along the perpendicular bisector of the fold you just made
 
Oh, I see, two vertices of the 5 will become one, so we have 4.
Right, @Liad.
 
8:33 PM
@TedShifrin thanks
 
Just a cool little thing I thought I'd share with you.
 
now i need to calculate it without the upper integral
 
With my paper model, the others overlapped too.
So I just have a triangle.
 
Let me show you my model
 
8:39 PM
The proof that a commutator subgroup is normal feels like such a troll
 
Isn't it a tautology
 
Why do you say that, Demonark?
Not quite, to my view, @Balarka.
 
@Ted did you use a square?
 
Zach: Nope, a standard 8 1/2 x 11 paper.
 
Well, I'm guessing there's multiple possible proofs
 
8:42 PM
When I do it I get a quadrilateral
 
I'm trying to draw it on paper, Zach.
 
My favourite one is: " $g^{-1}hg = h[h,g]$ for all $g \in G, h \in [G,G]$ "
 
It's beautiful, I love those proofs, but yeah I was trying to write out an element the commutator subgroup to find out what happens. Turns out it's just $g^{-1}hg = h^{-1}[h,g]$
 
@TedShifrin Welll.... if $x$ is in the commutator $gxg^{-1}x^{-1}$ is too. Now multiply on the side by $x$
 
That's not quite how I did it.
I observed that $c[a,b]c^{-1}= [cac^{-1},cbc^{-1}]$.
 
8:45 PM
Ah ok.
 
After my first fold, I get a weird diamond shape
five-sided
 
Oh lol, well that's less of a roflproof for sure
 
I like that word, "roflproof"
 
@Dami Can you try this to make sure I'm not going crazy?
 
Is there any easier way to see that if a vector bundle is iso to its dual then $c_1$ must vanish, than to pass to the determinant line bundle?
I feel like I'm missing something easier
 
8:47 PM
Drawing it on paper, Zach, I get a quadrilateral.
 
Alright. And it's cyclic?
 
I have no idea yet.
If the original vertices are ABCD, I fold to make C'=A. I get a vertex E at one end of the fold, and D folds across to give me D'.
Still vertex B.
 
I can try, though I'm leaving soon to work on group theory
Still do tell
 
This is quite mysterious.
 
Or is it what you're already doing?
 
8:50 PM
@Daminark Take a rectangular slip of paper, fold one vertex to the other, then, fold the resulting figure over the perpendicular bisector of the fold you just made
 
@Danu $c_1$ preserves tensor product, right? So I think $c_1$ of dual bundle is minus of $c_1$ of the bundle.
 
Be careful, @Balarka. What do you mean preserves?
You're doing line bundles for everything?
 
@TedShifrin i have something else i wasn't sure to solve:
$f(x,y) = \dfrac{x-y}{(x+y) \ ^ 3}$ , i need to show that fubini's theorem does not apply here, and to explain what is the problem with using it here , at $[0,1] \ ^ 2$
 
Sorry yeah, I am thinking of line bundles
Thanks
 
So that's why I mentioned determinant line bundles
 
8:51 PM
@Balarka: Preserves? You mean you get a group homomorphism? :)
 
If you pass to the det. then you can do what you said
And get a contradiction if $c_1\neq 0$
 
@Liad: So compute it both ways.
 
But I wondered if there is a "more direct" way, though I suppose this isn't so bad.
 
I just meant $c_1(L \otimes L') = c_1(L) + c_1(L')$. Yeah, I think that's a group hom from Picard group to H^2(X; Z)
 
Yeah, for sure it works for line bundles
 
8:52 PM
@TedShifrin yea sure , but what is the problem here? that $f$ is unbounded ?
 
Right, @Liad, so it's not Riemann integrable.
 
@Danu Got it. So I have no idea
 
I assigned this very exercise in my course, too.
 
I have forgotten the little about characteristic classes I learnt...
 
@TedShifrin you said that to me ?
 
8:54 PM
Yeah, @Liad.
 
Ok I gotta actually do this to a paper
 
@TedShifrin but what's so special about this function? couldn't we take any unbounded function that is integribale at each coordinate?
 
Zach, you still here? So I get an isosceles triangle there. AB and AD' have the same length. I don't see why the circle through those passes through E.
 
@BalarkaSen The beauty of it is that it's really easy to get back into. It's just a few rules and then basically manipulating polynomials. The background theory, you probably don't really forget.
 
@Liad: There's a symmetry here when you switch $x$ and $y$.
 
8:56 PM
Yes... I'm going to make a gif of what I mean
 
Other than computing a cross ratio somehow, Zach, how do I see that it's a concyclic quadrilateral?
 
that sounds like word salad
 
@Danu True. I should try that sometime - but probably not anytime soon. Axiomatic stuff throws me off a little
 
@BalarkaSen Ah, forget about the axioms ^^
Just think of them as computational rules
 
Some day Balarka needs to understand Chern classes in terms of curvature and in terms of the loci where generic sections become linearly dependent. :)
 
8:58 PM
I would also like that. Does that generalize what I know about the Euler class?
 
I did all that at the end of my geometry course.
Didn't I send you those notes, @Danu?
 
The complex geometry ones? You did
 
It all follows from universal stuff with Grassmannians.
 
@Ted Cool stuff!
Euler class is ezpz geometrically
 
I might not have done quite all in there, @Danu. But I did this in my Riemannian geometry course the last time I taught it.
 
8:59 PM
@BalarkaSen I found the proof quite complicated though...
 
@Danu I never read the proof, because that's my definition! P:
 

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