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5:02 AM
And yet we all get the same shirt. Seems unfair.
 
Why, should Arturo's be more sparkly?
 
Oh well. Still, free swag...
 
That would carry a whole new meaning to dressing up as AM for Halloween
 
Aw, can't see it.
I have been trying to restrain myself, but it would be nice to have 10k powers.
2
 
5:17 AM
@DylanMoreland "For Halloween I want to dress up as Arturo Magidin. I don't know much group theory. Any good group theory texts that are advanced. I want to act like a group theorist also."
 
user image
4
 
Does anyone know how I change the order of summation for $$\sum_{mn^2 = k} \sum_{pq=m} \cdots$$?
 
@DylanMoreland Apparently.
Write $k=ab^2$ with $a$ squarefree and rewriting $\sum_{n|b}\sum_{m|k/n^2}\sum_{p|m}$ is the best I can think of...
 
5:32 AM
@BillDubuque The motivation is that some users feel such blunt answers are either too blunt or, worse, represent site policy. Then they flag—sometimes a lot. Making things more clear never hurts.
 
@anon Hmm, thanks. I'll play with that.
 
@MarianoSuárezAlvarez Yes, that's one obvious possibility. But my experience is that the true motivations are often multifarious.
 
Unless you make explicit what you mean by that, I don; t understand
 
@MarianoSuárezAlvarez See above.
 
to be honest, having hidden motivations in MSE interations seems to be so childish and pointless to defy my imagination
No, please point to what you mean precisely. «See above» is not making things explicit.
 
5:37 AM
Hidden motivations?
Sounds exciting.
 
@MarianoSuárezAlvarez Hidden motivations? Motivations are generally quite complex. I would not try to simplify them as do you.
 
multifarious is a more colorful adjective, @Gigili
ok
I cannoyt deal with things I am not explained
I don't even know what you are referring to with the phrase «the true motivations are often multifarious.»
You are of course free not to tell me
I'll just go back to what I was doing
 
5:52 AM
@MarianoSuárezAlvarez That sounds oh so familiar: recall your prior remark "ok I'll just ignore thi thread" after not wanting to do an easy link resolution - just as above. Are you surprised that I don't take you as sincere after that?
 
I have ceased to be surprised by you a while ago :)
in any case, I suggest you make a meta post about these multifarious intentions that you perceive in some users, for it may be important to deal with them if they are in any way disruptive
 
I don't get it. 01:00:00 UTC is 0500 am here, pft.
 
@MarianoSuárezAlvarez I suppose I will have to work harder then. Life is boring without surprises...
 
@Gigili Yeah, I have a pre-planned dinner at that time. I guess the submitted time preferences were hard to match.
 
@robjohn Yeah, seems they were. But I don't recall saying I'll be available at 0500 am.
 
6:05 AM
@Gigili I know I said that I wouldn't be available at that time.
 
@robjohn So why they have selected that time for the meeting? Odd.
 
@Gigili There are 6 other candidates, so perhaps there was a real conflict in times.
we lose :-)
 
May be, yes.
Heh, I knew that.
 
@Gigili Maybe they used darts to break the impasse...
 
@JM And they hit the bull's eye, makes sense.
 
6:17 AM
hey
 
@BenjaminLim What's up?
 
do you know a book to get started on functional analysis? I don't know measure theory
 
morning guys
 
@BenjaminLim I'd go with an analysis book for that.
 
and girls
 
6:18 AM
learn measure theory then
 
such as
 
Morning, Tee-Bee.
 
@tb Good morning!
 
The example is L^p spaces, and variations threof
 
@tb I am being put off analysis by my current course, I want to see "real" analysis.
 
6:19 AM
@MarianoSuárezAlvarez of what?
 
Of spaces of interest.
 
Any book recommendations?
Peter Lax looks dense
rudin i'm not so sure
 
really, measure theory comes first
functional analysis is a theory designed to solve certain problems
 
@BenjaminLim Rudin's Functional Analysis has always seemed good.
 
which come mostly from analysis
 
6:21 AM
@MarianoSuárezAlvarez Ok where can I find a book to see the real stuff in analysis?
 
learning solutions without knowing what the problems are (or even the language those problems are stated with) is not a great plan
2
it is also boring
 
word
 
hemi-quasi barreled spaces are not exactly fun
 
guys
I just would like to see some "real" analysis
 
@robjohn How can they be selecting times when nominations haven't ended yet?
 
6:22 AM
like what is it when people talk about a bounded linear operator
 
stein's book on real analysis is good
 
that kind of stuff
 
@BenjaminLim Baby Rudin is also good
 
that is not real analysis
 
@BenjaminLim My officemate swears by Folland as an introduction.
 
6:23 AM
those thingsa re abstractions built so as to solve actual problems
 
@AntonioVargas I would not like to go for that
 
like the definition of the fourier transform on L^p
 
@BillDubuque don't ask me. There are two candidates who've said that is a no-go time.
 
and making sense of singular integrals, and so on
 
@AntonioVargas (joke) "swears" as in "that #*%@#&% book!" ;)
2
 
6:24 AM
He's a weird guy.
Love him though.
 
@robjohn Where was the time announced?
 
@BillDubuque In an email to the nominees for now.
 
@BenjaminLim, if you want to browse something, then pick dunford and schwartz
 
The meta thread too.
 
@robjohn What time was proposed?
 
6:25 AM
@AntonioVargas Thanks, hadn't looked there yet :-)
 
and then go back to some integration/measure theory
 
@MarianoSuárezAlvarez ah ok
 
@BillDubuque The time selected was 1:00 UTC
 
D&S should be enough to scare anyone back into his senses :)
 
@MarianoSuárezAlvarez what about rudin
functional analysis
 
6:26 AM
@MarianoSuárezAlvarez else add Hewitt and Ross to it :)
 
there is also a beautiful book by Schaefer on topological vector spaces, which is functional analysis as pure as it comes
heh
 
heh
 
@JM part of your comment got a square #$^#$%
 
@BenjaminLim, in fact, browsing that book by Schaefer is probably not a bad idea at all
 
i'm looking at it now
but it says it goes over the elementary facts on hilbert and banach spaces
 
6:27 AM
Rudin's book will be called by some dry
there is nothing elementary in Schaefer's book
 
@robjohn Today?
 
@BillDubuque 8 May
 
@robjohn I don't have ChatJax at the moment, so I forgot... :)
 
@robjohn That made it even better.
 
@MarianoSuárezAlvarez what da ya mean?
 
6:28 AM
@JM It was the $s in there
 
@BenjaminLim, what says what goes over the elementary facts on hilbert and banach spaces?
 
google books
 
Not even the obfuscation of simple facts remains on an elementary level, it's quite full-blown.
2
 
@tb huh?
 
@robjohn There. Now I made it more offensive... :D
 
6:29 AM
@BenjaminLim, he means Schaefer book is packed with ideas :)
 
ah ok
@MarianoSuárezAlvarez I don't believe analysis is as dry as it is put out to be
 
me either
I meant, Rudin's book is seen to be dry by some
 
@MarianoSuárezAlvarez yeah
 
@JM Did you change something more than 2 minutes old?
 
@MarianoSuárezAlvarez I'm downloading it now
 
6:31 AM
@robjohn He's got the wizard fingers.
 
@robjohn That's 'cause I look good in blue... ;)
 
if you plan to study (as opposed to browse) some "real" analysis, pick something covering measure theory, the usual functional spaces, metric spaces and their function spaces
that will provide examples — then pick a book on functional analysis
 
@JM I was guessing that must be it, but I didn't know that that was a mod ability.
 
I enjoyed Bartle for a gentle introduction to measure theory.
 
@MarianoSuárezAlvarez yeah.
@MarianoSuárezAlvarez I am doing a Jordan.
 
6:34 AM
@robjohn Yeah, one can redact, edit and such. Even ancient messages.
 
But my current course on analysis is really putting me off. One minute fractals, then the next minute ODEs, then whatever else next. It's like a salad mix
 
@JM revisionist historians beware!
 
@BenjaminLim the idea is that you learn analysis before you learn theory. That's what I told you to do about algebraic geometry, too...
 
@BenjaminLim That sounds like a bad curriculum. I'd rather not jump around that much.
 
@BenjaminLim "It's like a salad mix" - I have a good feeling that's the point...
 
6:35 AM
@tb What do you mean....
 
@robjohn, a quick question for you as a candidate. Would you say you've ever gone "mad with power"? ;)
 
Does that include incidents from childhood?
 
@robjohn Let me tell you that we have 4 courses covering a little bit of several variables here and there, none done properly.
 
with the power one gets with modhood, going «mad with power» would be simply laughable
 
@anon I'll leave that open for interpretation.
 
6:36 AM
@robjohn Maybe the professor was in so much of a hurry to present applications...
 
@robjohn @JM oh by the way we are not taught integration here :D :D
 
@BenjaminLim you characterize the thing as jumping around a lot. see it as an opportunity to see what's out there. Abstraction only is part of the whole story.
 
but then students learn lebesgue integration :D
@tb I wanna see what's out there in functional analysis
 
@BenjaminLim no integration in analysis?
 
@robjohn nope :D
although I vaguely recall we were told in a calculus course what the riemann integral was :D
 
6:37 AM
@MarianoSuárezAlvarez there are a number of other things to get mad about tho... :)
@BenjaminLim So you went through analysis without even a touch of Riemann-Stieltjes?
 
@AntonioVargas not that any of my slaves can recall ;-) I don't think that is my way.
 
@JM nope.
 
I am trying to imagine what a «MSE mod in a fit of power-madness» might do
no luck
 
@JM I don't know the details of the riemann integral
 
uh-oh...
 
6:39 AM
why...?
but then they teach the lebesgue integral
 
@BenjaminLim so you never did any "upper" and "lower" integrals?
 
but you did compute integrals?
 
@BenjaminLim a good analysis course should burn that into the back of your retina
 
@MarianoSuárezAlvarez oh yeah plenty
 
and what was the definition of those integrals?
 
6:39 AM
@DavidWheeler Never I don't even recall what an upper or lower riemann sum is
 
What rob said. In spades.
 
@DavidWheeler I loved that stuff!
 
@MarianoSuárezAlvarez They just vaguely said, you split some area up and then take a limit
 
"there's this long S-like sign and the rules are..."
4
 
@tb pretty much yeah
 
6:40 AM
@tb sounds like my undergraduate education...
 
so, Benjamin, how do you even know you CAN integrate a function f?
 
@DavidWheeler We're told that
 
then before spending time on Rudin or whatnot I would try to grok the details of integration, good ol' RIemann integration
 
is OK as long as f is continuous
 
i mean, functions can get pretty "funky"
 
6:41 AM
(though I suppose no point in dwelling in theory if all you want is applications, at least in my case.)
 
pick Apostol's calculus, for example
 
@MarianoSuárezAlvarez Yeah probably right
 
well, step functions aren't continuous, but they have pretty obvious "areas" under them
 
97% of what Lebesgue solves is incomprehensible if you do not know what the problems with the Rieman integral are
 
I think that's why I don't get the point of why learn fractals and solutions to DEs using integral operators when we don't even know what an integral is
@MarianoSuárezAlvarez I am worried that my analysis is not strong
 
6:42 AM
don; t worry
pick up Apostol and study that
 
one variable calc?
 
Don't think of it as calculus...
It's all limits.
Just limits.
 
what a limited perspective :)
 
when you re done with the two volumes, pick the other book by apostol
which is called mathematical analysis
 
6:43 AM
@MarianoSuárezAlvarez Which apostol book has things like a continuous function is integrable on a closed bounded subset of $\Bbb{R}$ because continuous functions on closed bounded sets are uniformly continuous?
 
that is true
 
@tb I'm somewhat of a minimalist.
 
that's the kind of things you need to be able to do in your sleep
(eventually)
 
@tb (your pun-fu is stronger than mine!)
 
that is proved in his Calculus
in the volume which deals with integrals
(the 1st one, iirc)
 
6:45 AM
i don't think uniform continuity comes before that
 
you don't need to spell it out in order to use it...
 
I've found I never need to look for trouble. It always seems to know exactly where I am.
 
my comment about step-functions was designed to persuade you that the set of integrable functions (on some domain) is larger than subset of continuous functions on that domain.
 
Alright I'm going to seriously regret it tomorrow if I stay up any later. Goodnight all.
 
6:47 AM
'night, Antonio!
 
@AntonioVargas See you!
 
Ok bye guys I'm off too, now I need to start an analysis crusade
 
One of the problems with the riemann-darboux integral is that it really doesn't work well with pointwise limits. Even pointwise limits that are very "nice" (such as pointwise monotone limits of non-negative continuous functions) --- as in this question on mine: math.stackexchange.com/questions/102482/…
 
well, there's your Baire classes of functions :)
 
@MarianoSuárezAlvarez Baby Rudin is good for that.
 
6:51 AM
Another problem is that it's nearly impossible to characterize which functions a Riemann integrable without measure theory.
 
@AntonioVargas later!
 
@kahen Riemann did that almost 60 years before measure theory was invented. You don't need measure theory to speak of null-sets!
 
segue: xkcd is nice today...
 
@kahen Since a function is Riemann integrable iff the set of discontinuities has measure 0 and it is bounded
 
I know, robjohn
 
6:53 AM
just completing the thought :-)
 
Again: Riemann introduced the concept of null-sets in his take on integration theory. Admittedly, he didn't call them null sets but rather "small sets" or something like that. No measure is required at all.
 
Huh. I didn't know that the result was that old. Since it's always called something like "Lebesgue's criterion for Riemann integrability"
 
@JM "$X\therefore\exists X$" subtle..
 
@JM At least they mentioned the supermoon that was last night...
 
@robjohn Oh, that. You took pics?
 
6:59 AM
@JM my uncle did. I was at an astronomy club meeting last night
 
The Arnold principle: If a notion bears a personal name, then this name is not the name of the discoverer.
@kahen See the Added bit here for a precise reference.
 
@tb I thought it was Stigler's but maybe that's the principle at work...
@robjohn Nice!
 
@tb You just need to add the stipulation that $f$ is continuous to get around that pesky null set ;-)
 
@JM The Berry Principle: The Arnold Principle is applicable to itself.
You're right that it's Stigler's law.
Here's Arnold's text where the two principles are formulated.
Some mean tongues say that in France a result is named after the first Frenchman who understood it...
 
Morning folks.
 
7:12 AM
Morning
 
Never mind : )
 
No, not me.
 
@Matt: hey there!
 
Hi Matt!
 
@MattN never mind?
 
7:16 AM
Morning.
 
@robjohn Sorry was afk making coffee. : ) Yes: never mind.
 
@MattN about what?
 
@robjohn About cave paintings : )
 
@MattN non-sequitur?
 
@robjohn Then I no longer follow this conversation : ) Just as well.
I'll bbl. If I sit in here all day I won't get done a thing.
 
7:28 AM
@MattN okay.
 
sometimes I wonder exactly which questions are chosen for the fate of being downvoted into oblivion
But probably it is as impossible to understand that as it is impossible to understand which answers are chosen for a huge number of upvotes :)
 
@tb Trying to rationalize voting patterns will drive you nuts...
 
@JM too late for me :-)
 
Ech, all questions, and no attempts to address comments in his questions. The downvotes reflect the frustration I guess...
 
@JM thanks for the tip, but I need no help in that department :) But if I ever run the risk of becoming a sane person, I'll remember to try to rationalize the voting patterns.
 
7:35 AM
"if I ever run the risk of becoming a sane person" - bah, I keep forgetting who I hang out with... :D
Well, I need to buy a few things to cook for my nephew's birthday. See you guys later.
 
see you!
 
Bah is under my copyright, by the way.
I'm going to ask the 100,000 question.
 
The 50,000th is apparently coming up.
 
7:57 AM
I wonder how many times I saw the IBN thing answered here. But somehow I'm unable to find them.
 
Maybe it's always in a comment.
 
Maybe, but that shouldn't prevent Google from finding it.
 
Looks good, thanks!
 
My department is very strange. I looked at the last 11 years of master's-level courses and there were: 11 years of Category Theory (no surprises)... but only 10 of Differential Geometry, and 4 of Commutative Algebra
I think there were more years with non-commutative algebra!
 
8:06 AM
SE is down?
 
If I were to decide on the course plan I'd apply the permutation (132) to that.
@Gigili not for me
 
I happened to stroll by seconds after it was posted.
 
@anon: I went into a bit more detail than this answer including a reference to here before I read the problem and realized that it was asking about all the $0$s.
 
@tb Umm, weird. I'm getting Time-out error.
 
@Gigili It's fine for me. Something local I'd guess.
@Gigili Hopefully your ISP has not blacklisted stackexchange.com :-)
 
8:16 AM
@robjohn Haha. Just the right day to do it.
Nah, problem solved.
I keep confusing Zev and Zhen Line.
 
@Gigili just because of the Z?
 
@robjohn I guess the blue adds to the confusion :)
 
@tb I didn't know Zev's gravatar was blue
 
What Tee-Bee said.
Sometimes mixedmath is also included.
 
Heh, I used to confuse Zhen and Zev too.
 
8:26 AM
@Gigili same here
 
@Ilya: hey there! :-)
 
@robjohn: hi
 
hi Ilya
 
:) hi, Theo
I have a question, does $\lambda s.f(s)$ means the map $s\mapsto f(s)$?
 
'Ello.
 
8:32 AM
@Gigili: good morning
 
@Ilya: Yes.
 
@Ilya yes
 
I can't remember how to prove the "inverse image of transverse submanifold is submanifold" theorem. :-/
 
Hm. Interesting answer, interesting comments. Others answered $\mathsf{W}$ for a similar question :)
 
thanks. Quite a convenient notation
 
8:35 AM
(close to imparsable for me)
 
@Ilya: Most people wouldn't recognise it, so I wouldn't recommend it.
It also comes with incompatible conventions, like $f g h$ being bracketed as $(f g) h$.
 
@ZhenLin No way, don't worry - I just have to read a paper related to my field which is written by a guy from CS. I see this notation for the first time, and I just seen some examples where this notation is indeed useful, like $\lambda t.P(t,0,x) = (x,x-1,x^2)$
personally I prefer arrows and words
 
I think it would do mathematics good to adopt some aspects of this notation, actually...
 
@Gigili 'Ello, you were going to let me know if you needed me to do something, and when.
 
'Ello @DavidWallace. Thank you, I can do it on my own.
 
8:43 AM
@ZhenLin well, I'm more bothered about Markov Chains/processes at the moment, if we talk about terminology and notation
 
I'm off.
 
Hey
 
Most of the time when you could use lambda notation, things like $x \mapsto \Phi(x)$ or $F(\cdot,t)$ will work just as well
 
@kahen: that's what I usually do. My comment about convenience raised from the underexpectation I had about this notation (like using $\forall, \exists$ without saying it in words)
 
or $A \owns x \mapsto \Phi(x) \in B$ if one wants to talk about where it maps to and from
 
8:46 AM
$\ni$ is an abominable symbol.
 
and it means "such that" to some people :)
 
@Zhen Э = [e] is a Cyrillic symbol
 
That's not \ni. That was \owns ;)
 
And let's not even talk about the ill-formedness of such syntax.
@Ilya A manifestly distinct one!
 
:)
 
8:49 AM
I try to stay away from it as well, but it is pretty useful for things like "The group operation $G\times G \owns (x,y) \mapsto xy \in G$ is required to be continuous [...]"
 
I still prefer $G\times G\to G: (x,y)\mapsto xy$.
 
I'd write $((x, y) \mapsto x y) : G \times G \to G$, but that's because I think of $((x, y) \mapsto x y)$ as a function literal of type $G \times G \to G$.
 
But why express this in one formula? And do you mean the right or the left action there?
2
 
@tb: how do you write that?
 
Let $G$ be a topological group.
 
8:52 AM
Let $G$ be an internal group in the category $\textbf{Top}$. :p
 
@tb: well, how would you write that if you write an introductory book on groups which covers topological groups? Although you might not want to do that, I still claim that my question is well-posed
@ZhenLin two more iterations and you'll be very close to L. Tolstoy with his W&P
 
For this question, would $F$ the complement of an open ball and $x$ the center of the ball be a counterexample?
 
It's a convenient thing to do. Once "internal group" is defined one can give the same definition for Lie groups, commutative Hopf algebras, 2-groups...
 
@Ilya I would even run the risk of giving the maps names such as $m: G \times G \to G$ and $i: G \to G$, explain what they mean etc
 
@anon yes. I don't know how did (s)he come up with an idea that the point is unique.
@tb It's hard to catch you :p
 
8:59 AM
Ah, convexity, of course.
 

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