Charcoal HQ - 2018-05-18 (page 3 of 5)

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1:00 PM

i wonder how spammers feel though, when their stuff here gets deleted within minutes as compared to days on other forums. I wonder if they even know that Charcoal exists. I at least spent my last four years as a regular user oblivious of this great antispam-community, but that's probably because I didn't post spam

I know I designed it an' all, but I'm liking the new review

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Blacklisted website in answer, pattern-matching website in answer, username similar to website in answer: What is the best Android Rooting Tool? by supersu pro on superuser.com

thesecretmaster

Kinda nice to see that my site gets enough traffic to get spam :)

tpu- by ByteCommander

We are the flags in the shadows

:D

1:04 PM

@user5389107 that's a nice tagline! which reminds me if Charcoal has an official tagline in the first place, does it?

You would need to ask the project directors

fp by Magisch on Is there a GPU-hashrate database? [MS]

fp by Magisch on How to integrate my chatbot in an android/ios app? [MS]

hmm I think if there isn't then there should be. "we work in the chatroom, to serve the main site" is a start (vague Ubisoft game reference, if you get it)

Stephen Kennedy

There's what is arguably a tagline over on the top right

> Where diamonds are made, smoke is detected, and we break things by developing on production

i saw it, but I don't think everyone gets the analogy that spam=smoke. at least I still don't know what "diamonds" stands for :/

thesecretmaster

1:09 PM

diamonds == moderators

Because on site, mods have diamonds after their names.

And often people who are a part of this project become moderators, partially because of their work here.

Stephen Kennedy

also diamonds are carbon which is also prevalent in charcoal?

...moderators were supposed to be "elected"? Ahh, I get it. many users became charcoal members first and then mods later, so that's a connection. Right?

@thesecretmaster ah yep we posted at the same time :P

@StephenKennedy diamond (crystalline) certainly doesn't equal charcoal (amorphous) afaik

@StephenKennedy that's the other half of it

@StephenKennedy Embarrassingly, I don't think I've ever thought of this

Nice connection

Stephen Kennedy

@ArtOfCode Since you're here: I've only read a few articles on the Team so far but what I read was really useful and inspiring

So I think you can be more emphatic next time someone asks if it's worth joining.

1:18 PM

idk participating in charcoal means you get to see a lot of the worst garbage on SE

not for everyone

Stephen Kennedy

(within the context of somebody who already has SD privileges and is not adverse to seeing garbage asking if they should join the Team)

participating in charcoal means you're okay with the fact that we have a 250MB database of shit :P

@StephenKennedy cheers

In some cases literal faeces

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in answer, offensive answer detected, potentially bad keyword in answer, toxic answer detected: Safek berachot lehakel limits by Adolf Hitler on judaism.SE

tpu- by Magisch

also gross

1:23 PM

@tripleee 2177

Stephen Kennedy

yes, right on cue

> Would not be caught as a post, title or username.

@user5389107 preeeetty sure we've captured the Academia dick pic troll in there somewhere.

@Zoe Added kike to watchlist

@ArtOfCode yea

1:25 PM

CI on 40d2cc6 succeeded. Message contains 'autopull', pulling...

[ SmokeDetector ] SmokeDetector started at rev 40d2cc6 (SmokeDetector: Auto watch of kike by Zoe --autopull) (running on teward/Solar Flare)

@ArtOfCode It's only 250mb?

Restart: API quota is 14518.

@user5389107 yup, 49562 (imgur link NSFW)

!!/commands

@Zoe I'm SmokeDetector a bot that detects spam and offensive posts on the network and posts alerts to chat. A command list is available here.

1:26 PM

@WELZ yup, about 60MB compressed

"So what do you do in your free time" "I delete spam on this one Q/A site"

!!/blacklist-username adolf\W*hitler

@Zoe Blacklisted adolf\W*hitler

for reference that's about 167 million characters

[ SmokeDetector ] SmokeDetector started at rev ededa33 (SmokeDetector: Auto blacklist of adolf\Whitler by Zoe --autopull*) (running on teward/Solar Flare)

Restart: API quota is 14486.

1:39 PM

@Zoe But what about all the nice SE users who want to name themselves Adolf Hitler? (Thanks.)

0

Q: Should StackExchange have a spam filter? (Does it already and I’m not aware?)

Of course spam posts should be flagged, and if they come up in review, rejected. Over on Mi Yodeya during the past 24 hours I’ve helped delete and reject four spam posts through the review queue, and I can only imagine that others were posted over the course of the night. To clarify, I’m referri...

feature-request spam-detection

@IsaacMoses Thanks, I forgot about those people, because there are more of those than the bad ones! I'll remove the blacklist. :p

@quartata I have my initial proposal. Warning: This is a radical change I'm proposing in this one. It is a rewrite of the entire system so that it is expandable to other parties both in receiving content and in "doing something" with content. I have a less ambitious proposal too, but I started with this and kept going, so this was first. It's also high level. There are a TON of technical details that need to be discussed

8

I love me a good huge proposal

@Catija FYI all, I'm writing an answer to this... let's not all write one :P

@ArtOfCode Well, I'll be interested in hearing opinions on this one. Like I said, this is the "aim for the stars" proposal.

1:46 PM

@ArtOfCode I'm not, which is why I posted it in here. ;) I'm on mobile and busy.

@Andy I will happily help to point this ole ship in a celestial direction

heh, okay, I'm not writing an answer to that, someone got there before me

Worth watching? english.stackexchange.com/review/suggested-edits/289733

!!/test 18133206262

> Numbers-only title, phone number detected in title
----------
Title - Phone number: 18133206262
Title - Position 1-12: 18133206262

@Andy I like how your proposal ends

> Yes, I just proposed building a (very) small business out of Charcoal.

1:55 PM

@Glorfindel Already watched

Ish

@ArtOfCode My favorite was the opening story.

It's so engaging! I would read an in depth book like that.

A note/caveat, because this should be out in the open: If we're doing this, we need to bring everyone along with us. We can't do it without our people.

@ArtOfCode I missed something I think?

@ArtOfCode I only have two thumbs to point in an upward direction for you.

15 mins ago, by Andy

@quartata I have my initial proposal. Warning: This is a radical change I'm proposing in this one. It is a rewrite of the entire system so that it is expandable to other parties both in receiving content and in "doing something" with content. I have a less ambitious proposal too, but I started with this and kept going, so this was first. It's also high level. There are a TON of technical details that need to be discussed

and

4 mins ago, by ArtOfCode

> Yes, I just proposed building a (very) small business out of Charcoal.

1:59 PM

reading now.

neading row.

CaffeineAddiction

neading row!

... we'd need to rebuild how we handle spam, but not a bad idea. Lots of technical and legal considerations though, on the international scale

Yup

I'm up for a challenge

@ArtOfCode i think we'd need a 'parent' company in one location, with subsidiary businesses in others to abide by 'local' business laws.

CaffeineAddiction

2:04 PM

@ArtOfCode@ArtOfCode I like the idea, I have 2x thoughts

1) small business ... would you be selling the code or selling the support?

@ThomasWard Nah, we should be able to manage with one organisation

@ThomasWard Um...no?

@ArtOfCode i'm talking about international tax law considerations ;)

Yeah, you can accept money internationally without having a company in the source country

i know you can

CaffeineAddiction

2:05 PM

2) why would the system DO something ... why not instead have an API, feed spam and get a responce SPAM/NO-SPAM

US tax laws are anal about it though :P

@CaffeineAddiction might well do

but that's just one of the possible do-somethings

@ArtOfCode either way, my company, Dark-Net.IO, would be proud to be a supporting partner if this went forwards :P (TL;DR, it's just me with a 'doing business as' xD)

CaffeineAddiction

for SE it makes sens to be pro-active and flags stuff

we can let users choose that if they want, or we could post it to a chatroom, or automatically report it, or whatever

CaffeineAddiction

2:06 PM

but if one where to publish this for others consumption ... why assume they want the system to do the action

why not have this new code be the plugin ... and then they do there own action w/ the results

@ThomasWard Eh, still think setting up in every country we have people is unnecessary. Just manage the money in one country.

Speaking of which... we'd need to have a pretty serious look at where to set up.

CaffeineAddiction

3rd Party provides data via api -> Smoke jr thinks about data and gives response -> 3rd Party takes there own action accordingly

my 2c

@CaffeineAddiction 1.) Support. This would be hosted by us, like it is today. 2.) Do something is optional. At least it would do is spit out a spam/not spam response. Further than that is where "do something" becomes optional. One option is the plugins I mentioned. All of that "do something" is occurring off our platform. It's just using the response. The other option is custom integration (ie. with SE...we say it's spam, we proactively go do something about it).

@CaffeineAddiction We're more valuable if we can take the action too. Less work for the consumer.

CaffeineAddiction

anyway, yah ... if a new project like this was started, I would be interested in throwing some time at it

@ArtOfCode more valuable IF the person consuming the API has an API of there own that the new smokie api would understand

2:09 PM

Agreed.

CaffeineAddiction

#confusing ... never seen a dual api like this ... usualy its one person provides and other consumes

its surly possible ... but yah

@CaffeineAddiction Aye. That's where the plugins Andy's talking about come in. The core system takes in text and spits out spam/not-spam. Then we create a bunch of plugins that we attach to the end of the core system that interface with 3rd party APIs

@CaffeineAddiction Look at Zapier. They handle integration between multiple web applications.

CaffeineAddiction

yah, and again generic plugins for WordPress and the like would be great ... but I think an underlying API of Data in GO/NOGO out would be ideal ... then plugins for individual platforms use that accordingly

yay abstraction

\o/

2:13 PM

@ArtOfCode Indeed. This is going to be a major consideration point.

Suspect it'll probably end up being the US... which'll be interesting, cuz I'll need to look at right to work over there.

CaffeineAddiction

@ThomasWard public/open-source code w/ individual contractors selling support similar to things like RedHat?

or are you guys thinking close sourced

Whether or not we keep it open-source is a question to ask

It would be good to; it may also affect commercial viability slightly

Maybe we open-source parts and close others

I'm thinking we'd do it as a mixed open/closed source

CaffeineAddiction

half and half model could work too ... eg Chrome / Chromium

or community / pro

2:16 PM

I'm in agreement with the open/closed "mix" because there's obviously things we want to keep 'secured' and locked down to only those of us with access

(private gitlab, anyone? xD)

Potentially closed-source Smokey but open-source input and do-something plugins could work

CaffeineAddiction

like private APIs that might require NDA

@ArtOfCode The way my company works right now, is they are based in California. I'm not, but am a full time employee (not a contractor). We have a UK based employee who is technically a contractor (I get an IRS 1040 form, he gets something else). The company itself though treats both of us identically. The differences are only for tax purposes

And the other question if we're setting up shop, of course, is who does what

@ThomasWard I set one up the other week for myself. I've got to say, GitLab is nice and I've only used it for a few weeks. I haven't even played with the CI/CD stuff yet.

2:18 PM

Who are the C-levels?

@Andy yup. GitLab is pretty sweet.

@Andy I haven't played with CI/CD yet myself either, but I do have a private GitLab

it's not working right now since I redid my network, but that's fixable :P

once i get home :P

CaffeineAddiction

I have gotten some pretty good mileage out of Gogs gogs.ca.ffeineaddiction.com

@ArtOfCode Taking one step back, the proposal itself has a lot of technical stuff hidden under the surface. Anything that needs to be talked about there? Or should I spend the weekend writing something for each of the three subsystems? (Input, Analysis, Output) to help move that discussion along?

CaffeineAddiction

@ThomasWard I have done CI/CD before

@CaffeineAddiction Interesting. I've not heard of that one

2:21 PM

@Andy There's a mountain under the surface of that thing :P I think breaking it down is the way to go, particularly to avoid bikeshedding

Ok. I'll start on that then.

Cheers

CaffeineAddiction

@Andy gogs.io ... dead simple to setup

also, ouch:

user image

CaffeineAddiction

@ArtOfCode Yah ouch, its a lot easier to go open source ... gogs is a github clone ... you just stand it up on a VPS and give it a subdomain

2:31 PM

@CaffeineAddiction that's the Teams billing page, fortunately, not something we actually have to pay :)

CaffeineAddiction

billing page for a private repo right?

We could host our own GitLab instance

Oh.

I should have kept reading

@CaffeineAddiction no, SO Teams

CaffeineAddiction

ah

66 active users. That seems high.

2:33 PM

@Andy "active" as in "not deactivated", not as in "actually contributing stuff"

Though, I guess it's only a few weeks old so it's hard to determine who's not actually using it after signing up

2:45 PM

Ha

Look what's on HNQ:

37

Q: Why did Peter Jackson replace Glorfindel's role with Arwen?

In the books, it was Glorfindel who saved Frodo from the Nazguls. Obviously, I'm talking about the movies, particularly the reason why Peter Jackson changed this scene from the book. Why did PJ replace Glorfindel with Arwen? Why did Peter Jackson remove Glorfindel from the motion picture trilogy?

tolkiens-legendarium lord-of-the-rings movie fellowship-of-the-ring

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Link at end of answer: Install angular on mac by Ignat on stackoverflow.com

fp- by Zoe

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in body: Laravel - has many through with multiple levels by Emadeldeen on stackoverflow.com

@ArtOfCode Ouch xD

fp- by doppelgreener

I haven't read nearly enough to have an informed opinion on this, but licensing seems difficult from a commercial standpoint

Value would have to be in the form of a closed-source interface system, or simple support (like a RHEL model)

@ArtOfCode look at who feedbacked to chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/11540?m=44648487#44648487

2:54 PM

also, egads taxes

@Undo I was planning on pinning that on you, as the one with the accountant ;)

@Undo I don't think licensing would work for this. I am proposing we still host "the thing", and it talks to "the other things"

You have an accountant? Aren't you like...13? ;)

Undo's all adultish now

but aye, I like the model your proposal has

Community Tier up to a few thousand scans per day; beyond that you start paying

@Andy Right, but... what's our value prop?

Just the hosting?

@Undo We do the spam classification. The real value is the data and analysis we perform.

Hosting if just something that needs to occur to make that accessible

3:06 PM

That's all open, though.

Kinda the same as it always has been for people wanting to run their own SmokeDetector - you could, technically, do it, but this one will always be better because we have more manpower to put into regexes and analysis

Either you're updating every hour, or you lag behind

CaffeineAddiction

random thought, in the past when someone comes in here ranting about OMG my domain name is listed in your block list ... how dare you ... yada yada threat of legal action ... it is largly ignored

And always should be

@Undo With the expansion you get access to spam patterns seen on other platforms too. So, if Wordpress gets hit today, we can be ready for it to hit Medium later.

CaffeineAddiction

however if Smoke became a company ... it might be moreof a real issue

3:07 PM

Let's try it this way: Why would I be paying for over just forking Smokey and running git pull origin master occasionally?

Right now? Because it's SE only. In the future, the same reason large companies don't do that now. They want someone to yell at if it breaks.

Also, there was talk above of a closed/open split, but that's not in my proposal at all.

puts on Open Source mod hat

there's a question about this somewhere

I'm not sure what the scale/scope of that would be.

IMO, we're an unofficial volunteer group, and always will be.

Even if we expand, we'll never be - and shouldn't be - official.

That's why I'm think that if we did this, the best business would be in running the transport layer - Smokey remains open-source as now, the closed source thing would be in running the layer between e.g. Medium and the OS detection code.

Keeps a clean distinction between "a bunch of volunteers writing regexes" - which would stay that way - and "some guy with a proprietary transport layer charging money"

3:10 PM

73

Q: How can large open source projects be monetized?

Many open source projects I see involve having dedicated servers, as well as the expensive infrastructure that powers it. How are these projects monetized to cover the costs introduced during development and deployment?

On the hastily drawn chart in my proposal, where would you draw a circle around the "we should charge for this" section, @Undo

Hold on, gotta find a markup thing

CaffeineAddiction

@Undo Donations say Patreon

Eh...not donations. Donations are weird with taxes. Official business taxes are less likely to draw tax authority looks.

Unless you set up an official organization that can accept donations

AFAICT, there are two models that could make money:

3:15 PM

user image

I am totally opposed to monetizing Smokey, for what it's worth.

@Mithrandir I think it could be done properly in a way that wouldn't corrupt what it is. But we'd need to be very, very, very careful about where lines are drawn.

1. Closed-source Smokey, open-source plugins. Free tier for a while, then charge for access to it above that.

What'd you use to draw on that?

CaffeineAddiction

@Mithrandir curious to hear your opinion, why

3:17 PM

2. What Undo said.

@Andy iOS Files app

Well...poop. I have a Windows machine and an Ubuntu machine. That's not helpful at all :)

pressure-sensitive iPhone 6S screen makes finger drawings look half decent

@Mithrandir at all or for profit? Monetizing to cover costs and monetizing for personal gain are different things.

A number of people put non-trivial funds into this thing at the moment; covering those doesn't seem like a terrible thing to do

See, I think this can be done for-profit without damaging the community here. It could be done with no changes to what we do now:

(well, kinda)

3:19 PM

I'm in agreement with both of those.

@CaffeineAddiction Smokey is a volunteer project, built by a group of people with a mission to defend something that they care about. That passion has been what's supporting it. Over time, it's also attracted people who hate spam in general (cough). Once money is brought into the equation, things change drastically.

We'd split SmokeDetector into two repos - the detection engine and the Stack Exchange adapter.

Then if someone - anyone - wants to start a business writing adapters for any site, charging for them or not, they're free to do that.

Where an "adapter" would just be "logic for feeding information in and handling the results"

^ That is good for building a community and expanding to other individual instances of a platform.

@Undo How do we cover costs with this model?

Same way as before - usage based.

Someone can write plugins. Someone else can use those plugins. The users are the ones hitting usage quotas

3:21 PM

@ArtOfCode My theory here is that it's not "Charcoal writing adapters", it'd be "Any entity writing adapters"

@ArtOfCode Covering costs isn't an issue by itself, but I think it becomes difficult to separate.

@Undo Sure, but that loses us a potential revenue source. If we want to cover costs, we have to find something else to generate it.

I think setting out to cover our costs for running on SE is dangerous

Right now it's a volunteer thing. It works well that way. I'm fine putting in $10 a month to keep metasmoke (mostly) running.

Agreed. I don't think SE is the place to get costs from.

@Mithrandir Not too difficult. Get an organisational bank account. Dump all income into there; pay out in response to expense reports. The rest can just sit there and be used for things like swag.

3:22 PM

SE is the test case and success story.

It's used to show we know what we're doing

Wait...there are potential stickers and hoodies in this?!

If you can make us more than costs, yes :P

Also, by explicitly not setting out to cover costs, we maintain separation between "Charcoal" and "Undo's Adapter Writing Co." Which is very, very important if we don't want to turn into a real org, with everything that entails

Like legal accountability, that kind of stuff.

And if someone here is running a business hooking people up to SmokeDetector, and they make a profit, and they decide to contribute some of that back to the Charcoal OS project... that's perfectly fine. But Charcoal wouldn't be taking in revenue, it'd be taking donations.

gah...donations.

well, you know. "Donations" like "Hey, we wanna buy you all hoodies"

Or "here's a free EC2 server for a year"

cash is hard

"WTF are these hoodies $200?!" "Oh, you get a shirt and pay for a server. Thanks!"

3:26 PM

@Undo on the contrary... cash is easy enough. If we want to do donations now we could; get a donation button and hook it up to the same paypal account that's currently holding the rest of the stickers fund.

Sure

(speaking of swag, Charcoal hoodies are great)

I like the idea of expanding, being run by a Charcoal org, and covering costs... but I think it just can't work. It'd be asking a bunch of Internet people to figure out international tax law, and - most importantly - not fight when there's money involved. I don't think anyone here would, but money brings out the worst in people.

A clear "Art and Andy are selling something that uses Smokey regexes, good for them" separation would, IMO, be the safest thing for the community.

In some ways our current structure is easier, because it's much easier to be a benevolent dictatorship

Exactly

3:29 PM

Organization was a bit further down on my list of things to write about. :\

"We" stay a benevolent dictatorship. If Andy or whoever wants to start a business consuming the work of the benevolent dictatorship, that's their thing

Particularly with money. If someone wants their costs covered at the moment and there's enough in the paypal account to do it, they can have 'em - but it stays as a unilateral "Art says we're broke" if not

Which works great

@Andy I'd say write about it anyway. Useful to have ideas floating around to be thrown up and batted around

gotta tend to a work issue, hold on.

3:31 PM

THE SERVER'S ON FIRE

A server is on fire is good. There should be a fire extinguisher near by. Easy problem to solve.

user image

claps

hit the Halon button, Undo

Another potential split of what costs money is

user image

The biggest difference is that middle circle

That's basically making it a giant black box with easy in and easy out and hand waving in the middle

3:33 PM

looks like a white cylinder to me

heh

Took me a second

With this method, we could decide to open/close the code and it wouldn't matter. The value would be the data under it

So, someone would, theorectically, fire up another one but wouldn't have our database to work off of.

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Blacklisted user: media player failed to open file by greenapps on stackoverflow.com

@Andy this may be the best method... this is probably another discussion to have

fp by gunr2171

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in answer, blacklisted username, offensive answer detected, potentially bad keyword in answer, toxic answer detected: Why is the Tetragrammaton unutterable by Adolf Hitler on judaism.SE

@Andy Who's 'we'?

3:42 PM

tpu- by Undo

@Undo "We" as in the organization that hosts the entire solution. Business/Charity/Charcoal. (Also, rereading what I wrote, if you are asking about "could decide to close the code", I'm making the assumption that can be done with whatever license(s) we have decided to use for a new system)

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Potentially bad keyword in answer: "Check update" is not working in android studio by user9812565 on stackoverflow.com

Yeah, I think we're talking about the exact same thing

Here's how I see it working. The Charcoal we know now, the open source org with benevolent dictatorship, restructures Smokey into two repos - the spam detection engine, and the adapter thing for SE.

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Mostly non-Latin body: apache connections stuck in 'l' logging state by Shane on serverfault.com

That, then, leaves it wide open for anyone to start a business of any kind using that detection engine. Whether it's a few of us wanting to cover costs, someone off on their own, whatever.

Since benevolent-dictatorship Charcoal wouldn't even by an entity, just a bunch of random people on the Internet writing regexes, we don't have any worries about money, legal craziness, etc.

All the legal craziness / money / whatever is nicely tucked away with whomever is using the spam detection engine.

Anything benevolent-dictatorship Charcoal does continues to be FOSS, anything a business does is whatever they want it to be.

Want to collect data or do ML to provide value for customers? Great, open source it if you'd like - but no requirement to do so.

3:49 PM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Potentially bad keyword in answer: How to: New order Binance API via RStudio by Bart on stackoverflow.com

Also, we wouldn't need to worry about any additional hosting load. Someone selling adapters would just run it themselves and charge a client for hosting. The engine is freakishly cheap to run.

I'm liking this strategy so far

I could choose to start a business with Art and whomever will join me - but it's a private entity; no one here has reasonable expectation of getting any revenue or any right to join

Nicely shunts community drama away

So I could choose to do something with only Andy and only deal with US tax law, for example.

Then, if I want to, I could send my regex changes upstream to the open source repo. I probably would anyway so I'm not maintaining unnecessary complexity.

thesecretmaster

What happens if the benevolent dictators are also the people who are trying to make money? That sounds like a conflict of interest, and could possibly maybe result in a not-so-benevolent dictatorship.

honestly, I doubt people here would allow that

And... anyway, it's not like I have that much power. I basically set direction, no one actually needs to listen to me. Most benevolent dictatorship is around "are you sane enough for privileges"

3:55 PM

For all we say it's a benevolent dictatorship, it's a benevolent dictatorship that relies on respect. Y'all go along with what the dictators say because you respect them, not because we're threatening your families. I hope.

wait... you don't threaten families? Try it sometime, waaaay more effective

Knew I was missing a trick

CaffeineAddiction

@ArtOfCode Undo hasnt threatend your family yet? ... mines in hiding

But yeah - conflicts of interest are... kinda fine, actually, as long as you can still act in the interests of both organisations or step back if you can't make a decision that does that.

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Potentially bad keyword in answer: Can't change to other language anymore by Johns111 on android.SE (@iBug @AndrewT.)

3:56 PM

Nothing keeping anyone here from starting their own Sawdust organization with forked Smokey code, their own metasmoke instance off a dump, etc. Not a huge barrier to entry.

If someone starts violating that principle, they're going to lose their respect fast and not be listened to.

thesecretmaster

@Undo Right now there's no incentive to, really.

CaffeineAddiction

@Undo nor should there be ... some of the best opensource projects have had splits like that and then the new stuff gets merged back when consensus is achived (eg Nodejs & IO.js)

@thesecretmaster Exactly. But if benevolent dictatorship failed here, it'd be a few hours' work for someone to set up a different org.

CaffeineAddiction

#RIOT

3:59 PM

or if I took issue with y'all... about two minutes, everything's already set up :P

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