2:02 AM
I just finished a brain-flak answer to the new question when it was closed as unclear :(

nice!

Actually it looks like I misunderstood the question

@HyperNeutrino Can you explain the challenge a little better..?

I opened my terminal and my computer nearly died. I need either less zsh extensions or a new computer, and I like my zsh extensions.

I think you need less zsh extensions.

2:10 AM
I have a salary for the first time in my life, let me waste my $15/hour in peace. Regarding codegolf.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/13771/… I feel that banning builtins is an unobservable requirement, and as such, should not be allowed in a codegolf challenge. That's like,$400 a week. I can afford to get a gaming computer every two weeks. This is pretty great.

@ATaco So asking for a proper quine should be forbidden?

That's a pretty good point, however I feel that Quining is a fairly different category from regular code-golfing.
Regardless, I strongly feel that banning built ins adds nothing to a challenge.

So you should be allowed to use prime-counting built-ins in a fastest-code challenge that asks you to count primes? Booooring.

2:20 AM
Fastest-code is definitely not Code-golf.

@Dennis not to sound like an ass, but he's got you there I think.

I'm still trying to think of a good koth...

(And doing that also limits you to the implementation, which given it's probably only a golfing language that has the builtin (And Mathematica), it's probably not very fast)
@DestructibleLemon If you make me use Python I'm not answering it.
>:(

>:( python is best
>:( also I was probably not going to make it python idk
>:( if I don't use one language it is really slow anyway

@ATaco The point stands. If you're asking to implement X, no matter if it's going for the shortest or fastest implementation, using a built-in that does X is the most boring answer possible, and quite likely to take the cake.

2:22 AM
HelloIAmAMathematicaBuiltinWithAStupdilyLongName
6

Of course, but even if you ban PrimeCount, you still haven't (And probably can't) ban Count(Primes())

@Pavel bad starbait!

o_o that wasn't meant to be starbait

I really liked the Ant KoTH
The web interface allowed for quick prototyping of ideas.

yes but js is bad

2:24 AM
^

Nah JS is fine.

You also think Lua is fine

nah it's bad

@Dennis I personally think it should. We argue endlessly about what is and isn't a proper quine trying to patch every approach until its a difficult task. We should just let them be, we are never going to have a good enough definition of a Quine.

Lua is fine.

2:25 AM
Exactly

@ATaco Better example for code golf: shortest code to print all US states, and you're allowed access to a list of all US states.

A quine is a proper quine if it is a proper quine
3

RProgN2 has a 3 byte quine again.

@Dennis You mean the list is part of the challenge or the list is a language feature?

Language feature.

2:27 AM
oh no did I make a starbait?

I'm like, 99% sure Mathematica has that.

The main issue with banning builtins, is defining builtins, as that meta question brings up.

@DestructibleLemon Not everything that is starred is star bait

@WheatWizard I know

o_o it actually doesn't
It has CountryData but it doesn't contain information about each state

2:29 AM
o_o make a request

What is Mathematica even for then?

If one is trying to be witty, but not thinking about stars, is it still starbait?

@WheatWizard Math.

@ATaco Of course simply saying no built-ins isn't enough. That doesn't mean a challenge cannot effectively prohibit the use of a certain class of functions.

2:30 AM
@ATaco Really? I thought it was just a massive collection of builtins mostly pertaining to math.

If someone thinks something I've said is starbait they're probably right but I don't realise it because I constantly thrive for the sort of attention stars bring.

@SocraticPhoenix Yes

@ATaco and identifying goats

> mostly

@Dennis Which brings back to the problem of CountPrimes is definitely a builtin, but is Count(Primes())?
Hopefully not because then every Jelly answer is one really complex Builtin.

2:31 AM
I'm sure FlagData is super-helpful for mathematicians.

@Pavel STEM then, are you happy?

But @ATaco it can draw too!

how about that garfield curve

@ATaco opls techniclly anything can go under STEM

Mathematica knows about pokemon.

2:32 AM
@Pavel why

Not just their names; their stats, movesets, and capture rates.

does that mean mathematica is capable of composing impossible contact clues?

Yes
@DestructibleLemon Sounds like something I'd do if I was a bored Mathematica developer ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

@Downgoat pls onetimesecret again

onetimepad?

2:34 AM
@Pavel you know what I would do if I was a bored mathematica developer?

o I fixed overleaf weirdness by stop using overleaf

sit around and procrastinate in tnb probably

@Downgoat :P what did you use instead

@ATaco Primes is always tricky for code golf, since there are oh-so-many built-ins related to primes. But just because it's not easy (or even possible) to draw a clear line in this case doesn't mean that it's impossible in all cases.

I feel like Mathematica just wants to have access to any data or function you can possibly want... Even if only 1 person will ever use it...

2:35 AM
they heard someone say "less is more" and wanted to prove them wrong

@ASCII-only btw can you add "import" ( string | [A-Za-z0-9_-]+ ) statement to vSL parsing

I forgot about the team spirit thing...

@Downgoat ok

@DestructibleLemon the correct way to prove them wrong is hand them dictionary

@Dennis I still stand that, in Code-Golf, banning builtins is generally not worth it. The unimaginative answer CountPrimes should be downgoated, rather than banned. (Not that anyone cares about that at all.)

2:37 AM
@ATaco why should it be downvoted?

downvoted? this is PPCG effort is inversely correlated with upvotes

you have to try to get an answer as short as possible

Boring answers should be downgoated. Should be.

@Downgoat how strong is that correlation? Is it linear? That should be a challenge

You don't downvote unimaginative answers, you just don't upvote them
@ATaco we're codegolf.se not popcon.se

2:38 AM
SEDE CMC: Graph effort v Answer upvotes

@Downgoat you'd have to pick an estimation of effort... Like edit count or something

Eh, I'm just a Tortilla with Fillings and Feelings, what do I know?

@SocraticPhoenix effort is calculated using giant regex
sounds possible

@Downgoat I might just sandbox it tomorrow...

btw what happened to frogs

2:40 AM
What?

frogs were really popular for like 1 hour a couple weeks ago
not sure what that was about

How strange...
I should probably sleep.. bye all

@ATaco ... said the author of Print 'em goats.

And it was downvoted.
To hell.

yay new permabounty

2:43 AM
And it didn't ban builtins.

@ATaco :/ but only users with the graduation userscript can do that

@ATaco Which, by pure coincidence, would only have affected your own language. >_>

There are multiple languages with a goat builtin, and I didn't even participate. 😒
But it was a pretty bad challenge.

(since you guys were discussing upvotes)

@ATaco Including Charcoal :P

2:46 AM
@ATaco :( are you talking about upgoat downgoat?

I'm talking about Print 'Em Goats.

kinda weird it uploaded as a jpg...

@DestructibleLemon 10/10 mspaint skills

paintbrush*

I should not be defined for my failures, but for my victories!

2:49 AM
someone pls i put a permabounty on hello world it can't be that hard (NOTE jk lol it'll take up a lot of your time)

[tag:link-reqest[]

I like how the goat printing one had an error where the builtins didn't work

@ASCII-only bounty for what?

@DestructibleLemon pls read, i just said hello world

2:51 AM
??

@DestructibleLemon did you even read the message >_>
@Mr.Xcoder I used something like this in the brain-flak optimizer :P

@ASCII-only Of the 5 languages I have on TIO, you've got the most efficient Hello World in each.

@ASCII-only to be fair it is hard to click linik when you are a lemon, especially the mouse because fruits don't have any hands :P

@ATaco 5?

oh crap delimit is breaking the markdown

2:53 AM
RProgN, RProgN2, TacO, Maybe Later, what's the 5th?
@ASCII-only How?

sorry I am being major stupid today

@ASCII-only what do you mean bounty on hello world? bounty for doing what

Oh, wait, TacO.
6

Also, people actually use Del|m|t?

RProgN, RProgN2, Threead, TacO, ReRegex, MaybeLater.
And the TacO is also the most efficient possible.

2:55 AM
:|

@ASCII-only explain yourself!!!

@DestructibleLemon outgolfing

BORK ALERT 🚨 BORK ALERT 🚨 BORK ALERT

ok that took too long

yeah i was fixing things
@DestructibleLemon well also fixing the ones that don't work
e.g. the woefully one

2:57 AM
so do I get a bounty for making that hello world then?

@DestructibleLemon Yes

ok
might do that

And since it isn't that easy (well it is more tedious than hard but hopefully you try and golf it after) I'd probably give >= 100 rep for that one

hmmm
not sure whether to worry about someone else stealing the bounty
dang if only I had waited to make the sadflak hello world :P
well, I didn't write the docs very well so hehe

@DestructibleLemon well I can give you a bounty for that if you really want :P

3:05 AM
nah that doesn't really make sense
well uh I can golf the program xd
golfed two bytes
actually I can golf it quite a bit
wait nvm I forgot how the program works xd

@DestructibleLemon +1 well done :P
but if you can then pls try to golf it

yeah I'm not sure I can golf it
I can't be sure it's optimal, but it would be very hard to figure out a better way

I just read the Woefully docs.
I immediatly regret my decision.

@Pavel +1
I can understand it fine though :P
@DestructibleLemon okay then, fair enough

@ASCII-only like maybe bounty the explanation for the sadflak hello world if you think it's particularly good... idk but I heard i did a good job >_>

3:14 AM
I understand just enough to really realize why it's so terrible.

@Pavel Yes. yes you do. it's probably the most verbose language out there atm

Eh

If you like the idea of woefully but not the tarpitifulness of programming it, try sad-flak

You sure?
Lenguage might just be verboser.

@ASCII-only without specifically having superlong commands like the beemoviescript one
or being lenguage

3:16 AM
Pyramid scheme is up there

yeah true
but maybe not as much as this one

@Downgoat I've updated the MathQuill userscript, if you've got it installed on its own, it should automatically update soon, or you can download it from Github again. If you've downloaded it as part of a bundle, you will need to update the bundle manually here.

MathQuill?

Latex editor.

Neat

3:17 AM
@ATaco $\text{cool}$ :D
:D it worked

And of course you can do images just be preceding it with a /, pressing Shift+enter will append it as a block Mathjax, rather than inline.
$$Block$$ $Inline$

xd for my sadflak explanation I forgot to use ctrl k

@DestructibleLemon o_o the TIO hello world is over 600 bytes to output @
Is there an actual Hello World?

@ATaco 0/10 you can't remove it once you place it

@Pavel I don't think I ever wrote that and also doesn't it error out?

3:20 AM
@Pavel Not yet

I think it's like a truncated version of another program or something

Huh

@ATaco ooh cool

@ASCII-only Delete the right side, then press escape to remove it.

images = ataco/generator image?

3:21 AM
it does not error out
I'm a bit confused about that

@ASCII-only Oh yeah saw it

@Downgoat / is a taco chat command for a permalink to an image with the chatjax rendered

and it's also unnecessarily verbose

If a triangle was 1 byte larger I would've been able to shorten it by about 15 bytes

If it's the only thing in the message, it will onebox.

3:23 AM
ah ok

Woefully was the first language I made... it was also part of the reason I made Turtlèd

@MDXF Why is your permabounty still up :/

'cause lazy and still on mobile
brb grabbing RasPi

@MDXF s/as//

that works too

3:37 AM
I'm streaming music right now and I can't tell if it's stuttering because of my internet or because of my computer, which are both stupidly slow.
You'd think it's my internet but I can't even properly type text in a terminal.

:/ Trying to do a golfy hello world in HBCHT

@ASCII-only

@MDXF yay
seems like isaacg's is going to disappear soon too

@ASCII-only isaacg's what?

3:45 AM
Is there a regex built in character class like . but to also match newlines?
/[.\n]/ isn't very golfy.

@MDXF permabounty, one's been solved, the other one is almost done

oh ok

@Pavel no

What's a good Unicode for a command to jump over commands? Non-emoji, non-cheesy

@ASCII-only dammit

3:48 AM
@Pavel Unless it's PHP anything but JS regex and you use the s flag

Ruby, actually.
What does the s flag do in JS?

🔜

Hmm, for Ruby the flag seems to be m

U+1F51C? @ppperry
Why does it say soon?

There isn't an s flag

3:52 AM
because that was the character I found

@Pavel Nothing

Or ➡️

@Pavel Shouldn't be, multiline does something completely different

Oh? It seems to make . match newlines.
Does it have other effects?

@ppperry thx status completed at 0x85 (I used the same thing but non-emoji)

3:57 AM
🌮 is needed in any respectable codepage

>.>

@Pavel you could use [^]

4:01 AM
Ah, well has anyone tested it in ruby?

I think Ruby uses similar to golang, which it doesn't work in.

I'm doing it right now

Doesn't work in ruby

Nope

I think it only works in JS.

4:02 AM
.|\n is still shorter than [.\n]

(Yeah, but only in some situations)
([.\n]*) is shorter than ((.|\n)*)

That is true
In fact I can't imagine a use other than the raw expression where it is shorter

/./m seems golfiest

what about the mysterious side effects of m?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Hopefully they don't actually exist

4:06 AM
You should read the docs

I am
They aren't loading very quickly
Or at all, as far as I can tell.

It looks like there are none

yep thats what I read, plus 2 questions on SO

Cool.

4:11 AM
I like that ruby has builtin regex literals, its quite nice

Absolutely.

4:26 AM
> In any case, an undocumented method can do whatever it likes.
Yeah, but I'd rather Object#methods throw an error of some kind indicating it doesn't exist rather than just returning an empty array.

Nonsense if your program doesn't error it can't have bugs

Object#methods existed in Ruby 1.x, but when they removed it from Ruby 2.x, they just made it quietly return an empty array instead of erroring.

May 17 at 20:38, by ETHproductions
@Mego Golfing language design tip #1: Every possible error is just a wasted opportunity to do something useful

Ruby sits firmly in the Practical section of TIO.

So does Perl :P

4:34 AM
Fair enough XD
.oO(It's not really XD worthy but I didn't want to use :P in a message replying to another one also using :P)

The Practical Extraction and Report Language? There's a shocker.

TIL

@Dennis That's a Backronym, Perl is not an Acronym. cite

Well, that's what my Perl book told me.

> A sever memory leak may have occurred. Would you like to report this issue to JetBrains?
> Warning: Project was not garbage collected within 300 seconds.
Well now I know why Visual Studio hasn't been working for me at all.

4:40 AM

There is a special place in my heart for a practical language that can be written in 90% symbols.

And Javascript..?

I do very much like Javascripts super weak typing. Allows for some great symbol soup

Weak typing is great for code golf et al., but I very much prefer strong typing for everything else.

4:48 AM
Absolutely.

Going into Java from Lua was like getting a weight lifted off my chest, surprisingly.

I have never once been in a C# situation where I felt that the dynamic type was a solution to a problem I had.

When Writing RProgN2, I wanted Dynamic Typing very badly.

Weak typing is usually a problem to a solution you had.
2

I really enjoy weak typing even when I'm not golfing. I don't like writing code and it makes things easier.

4:54 AM
@ATaco Well.....
*cough* C# *cough*

Math seems to love weak typing, everyone is always concerned with making things into sets.

Or classes if you're fed up with the limitations of ZFC.

ZFC?

Zermelo-Fraenkel with the Axiom of Choice.

Is this just me? I'm on mobile chat and there's a weird black dot to the bottom left of the send button.

5:15 AM

Question: Why does chat say I have about 500 more rep than I really do?
...
(Filler so my rep is visible)

Chat shows network rep.

Oh...
So I guess the correct question is "Why does PPCG say I have about 500 less rep than I really do"
In which case the answer is obvious.

5:37 AM
@WheatWizard but the only language that really has weak typing is JS :P

@ASCII-only Python has some weak typing but not nearly as much as JS.

5:53 AM
@WheatWizard but... Why do you enjoy weak typing

6:19 AM
I always confuse weak and dynamic typing.

6:55 AM
I just found a typo in a random book I found from searching "19th byte"
how... just how did they manage to write cnsigned
Makes you wonder whether 90% of the examples in the book actually compile lol
@ATaco Also one

@ASCII-only Maybe they accidentally rotated the "u" 90 degrees :P

@ASCII-only Is this the book?

@ATaco Yes. Yes it is.
@Emigna :/ I don't think Charcoal existed back then
Also: That reminds me Charcoal can't do that yet lol I need to implement operator overloads for lambdas someday

1 hour later…
8:12 AM

8:35 AM
Morning folks

@Mayube That's a relative statement.

Works for me

Should I make a GH repo which just complains about features I don't like about various languages (mainly in syntax)?
:P

If those syntax elements can be improved, you should rather submit possible improvements to the creator

@Qwerp-Derp Yes

8:50 AM
Braces should be removed in the next major version of C/++

@muddyfish why.

@Fatalize Hmm, but what if they're super-underlying issues that are literally part of the language?

@ASCII-only Because I don't like them

@muddyfish :/ just use PyPy/Crystal then

For example, Dart's stupid dynamic typing, which actually makes your code slightly slower when you do static typing
(At least, I'm pretty sure Dart does that)

9:22 AM
@Qwerp-Derp Does Dart even have static typing
@Qwerp-Derp You may be referring to checked mode, which is ignored at runtime and is only to help debug

9:34 AM
@Qwerp-Derp Also there's a reason for that (it compiles to JS), but Dart 2 will be fully compiled so yay speedups

Well the complaint for that only applies to Dart 1 then :P
Also it's super painful to set up C and C++ bindings for Dart
And then there's Swift, which is made by Apple, which therefore means that it's virtually impossible to use on Windows
It's possible, but it requires a lot of work, and if it doesn't work then Apple probably won't fix it

9:51 AM
@Qwerp-Derp Well yeah? That's intentional
Do you really think they would actually encourage people to use Windows by doing something like that?

I wanna make a .NET compiler for verbosely, but it's not really OO enough to transpile to C#, and I'm not sure about compiling to CIL

@Mayube Just use Roslyn :P

Roslyn?
oh hmm

@ASCII-only That's the point :P
@Mayube Use F# :P
Or just don't use .NET and use something like Clojure or Crystal :P, but that's my opinion

> compiling to JVM
yea no ty

10:02 AM
@Mayube You mean Clojure?

[pls ignore] O_o minxomat knows Red Means Recording (well at least kinda, on twitter)

Yeah that's pretty much it's only downside if you're concerned with making languages

Red Means Recording is pretty good

I made a theme for VSCode!

10:25 AM
but... but why?

@Mayube why not
@Qwerp-Derp It's a pretty big downside

not a fan of VSCode

@Mayube I like VSCode :P and it's a .tmTheme, which means it works with Sublime and Atom and stuff like that as well

@Qwerp-Derp Don't forget TextMate

@ASCII-only That too :P

10:35 AM
Also Ace Code editor which is the objectively best editor of all time :P
@Qwerp-Derp That's where the tm comes from

Yeah, I know that :P

10:46 AM
@everyone Should I try to fix my question or should I have it closed and rewrite it?