The Nineteenth Byte

Wheat Wizard

02:02

I just finished a brain-flak answer to the new question when it was closed as unclear :(

Try it online!

Destructible Lemon

nice!

Wheat Wizard

Actually it looks like I misunderstood the question

ATaco

@HyperNeutrino Can you explain the challenge a little better..?

Pavel

I opened my terminal and my computer nearly died. I need either less zsh extensions or a new computer, and I like my zsh extensions.

ATaco

I think you need less zsh extensions.

Pavel

02:10

I have a salary for the first time in my life, let me waste my $15/hour in peace.

ATaco

Regarding codegolf.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/13771/… I feel that banning builtins is an unobservable requirement, and as such, should not be allowed in a codegolf challenge.

Pavel

That's like, $400 a week. I can afford to get a gaming computer every two weeks. This is pretty great.

Dennis

@ATaco So asking for a proper quine should be forbidden?

ATaco

That's a pretty good point, however I feel that Quining is a fairly different category from regular code-golfing.

Regardless, I strongly feel that banning built ins adds nothing to a challenge.

Dennis

So you should be allowed to use prime-counting built-ins in a fastest-code challenge that asks you to count primes? Booooring.

ATaco

02:20

Fastest-code is definitely not Code-golf.

Thomas Ward

@Dennis not to sound like an ass, but he's got you there I think.

Destructible Lemon

I'm still trying to think of a good koth...

ATaco

(And doing that also limits you to the implementation, which given it's probably only a golfing language that has the builtin (And Mathematica), it's probably not very fast)

@DestructibleLemon If you make me use Python I'm not answering it.

>:(

Destructible Lemon

>:( python is best

>:( also I was probably not going to make it python idk

>:( if I don't use one language it is really slow anyway

Dennis

@ATaco The point stands. If you're asking to implement X, no matter if it's going for the shortest or fastest implementation, using a built-in that does X is the most boring answer possible, and quite likely to take the cake.

Pavel

02:22

HelloIAmAMathematicaBuiltinWithAStupdilyLongName

6

ATaco

Of course, but even if you ban PrimeCount, you still haven't (And probably can't) ban Count(Primes())

Destructible Lemon

@Pavel bad starbait!

Pavel

o_o that wasn't meant to be starbait

ATaco

I really liked the Ant KoTH

The web interface allowed for quick prototyping of ideas.

Destructible Lemon

yes but js is bad

Pavel

02:24

^

ATaco

Nah JS is fine.

Pavel

You also think Lua is fine

Destructible Lemon

nah it's bad

Wheat Wizard

@Dennis I personally think it should. We argue endlessly about what is and isn't a proper quine trying to patch every approach until its a difficult task. We should just let them be, we are never going to have a good enough definition of a Quine.

ATaco

Lua is fine.

Pavel

02:25

Exactly

Dennis

@ATaco Better example for code golf: shortest code to print all US states, and you're allowed access to a list of all US states.

Destructible Lemon

A quine is a proper quine if it is a proper quine

3

ATaco

RProgN2 has a 3 byte quine again.

Pavel

@Dennis You mean the list is part of the challenge or the list is a language feature?

Dennis

Language feature.

Destructible Lemon

02:27

oh no did I make a starbait?

Pavel

I'm like, 99% sure Mathematica has that.

ATaco

The main issue with banning builtins, is defining builtins, as that meta question brings up.

Wheat Wizard

@DestructibleLemon Not everything that is starred is star bait

Destructible Lemon

@WheatWizard I know

Pavel

o_o it actually doesn't

It has CountryData but it doesn't contain information about each state

Destructible Lemon

02:29

o_o make a request

Wheat Wizard

What is Mathematica even for then?

Socratic Phoenix

If one is trying to be witty, but not thinking about stars, is it still starbait?

Destructible Lemon

hmmm

ATaco

@WheatWizard Math.

Dennis

@ATaco Of course simply saying no built-ins isn't enough. That doesn't mean a challenge cannot effectively prohibit the use of a certain class of functions.

Wheat Wizard

02:30

@ATaco Really? I thought it was just a massive collection of builtins mostly pertaining to math.

ATaco

If someone thinks something I've said is starbait they're probably right but I don't realise it because I constantly thrive for the sort of attention stars bring.

Pavel

@SocraticPhoenix Yes

Destructible Lemon

@ATaco and identifying goats

Pavel

> mostly

ATaco

@Dennis Which brings back to the problem of CountPrimes is definitely a builtin, but is Count(Primes())?

Hopefully not because then every Jelly answer is one really complex Builtin.

Pavel

02:31

I'm sure FlagData is super-helpful for mathematicians.

ATaco

@Pavel STEM then, are you happy?

Socratic Phoenix

But @ATaco it can draw too!

Destructible Lemon

how about that garfield curve

Downgoat

@ATaco opls techniclly anything can go under STEM

yes STEM

Pavel

Mathematica knows about pokemon.

Destructible Lemon

02:32

@Pavel why

Pavel

Not just their names; their stats, movesets, and capture rates.

Destructible Lemon

does that mean mathematica is capable of composing impossible contact clues?

Pavel

Yes

@DestructibleLemon Sounds like something I'd do if I was a bored Mathematica developer ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

ASCII-only

@Downgoat pls onetimesecret again

Downgoat

onetimepad?

Destructible Lemon

02:34

@Pavel you know what I would do if I was a bored mathematica developer?

Downgoat

o I fixed overleaf weirdness by stop using overleaf

Destructible Lemon

sit around and procrastinate in tnb probably

ASCII-only

@Downgoat :P what did you use instead

Dennis

@ATaco Primes is always tricky for code golf, since there are oh-so-many built-ins related to primes. But just because it's not easy (or even possible) to draw a clear line in this case doesn't mean that it's impossible in all cases.

Socratic Phoenix

I feel like Mathematica just wants to have access to any data or function you can possibly want... Even if only 1 person will ever use it...

Destructible Lemon

02:35

they heard someone say "less is more" and wanted to prove them wrong

Downgoat

@ASCII-only btw can you add "import" ( string | [A-Za-z0-9_-]+ ) statement to vSL parsing

Destructible Lemon

I forgot about the team spirit thing...

ASCII-only

@Downgoat ok

Downgoat

@DestructibleLemon the correct way to prove them wrong is hand them dictionary

ATaco

@Dennis I still stand that, in Code-Golf, banning builtins is generally not worth it. The unimaginative answer CountPrimes should be downgoated, rather than banned. (Not that anyone cares about that at all.)

Destructible Lemon

02:37

@ATaco why should it be downvoted?

Downgoat

downvoted? this is PPCG effort is inversely correlated with upvotes

Destructible Lemon

you have to try to get an answer as short as possible

ATaco

Boring answers should be downgoated. Should be.

Socratic Phoenix

@Downgoat how strong is that correlation? Is it linear? That should be a challenge

Destructible Lemon

You don't downvote unimaginative answers, you just don't upvote them

@ATaco we're codegolf.se not popcon.se

Downgoat

02:38

SEDE CMC: Graph effort v Answer upvotes

Socratic Phoenix

@Downgoat you'd have to pick an estimation of effort... Like edit count or something

ATaco

Eh, I'm just a Tortilla with Fillings and Feelings, what do I know?

Downgoat

@SocraticPhoenix effort is calculated using giant regex

sounds possible

Socratic Phoenix

@Downgoat I might just sandbox it tomorrow...

Downgoat

btw what happened to frogs

Socratic Phoenix

02:40

What?

Downgoat

frogs were really popular for like 1 hour a couple weeks ago

not sure what that was about

Socratic Phoenix

How strange...

I should probably sleep.. bye all

Dennis

@ATaco ... said the author of Print 'em goats.

ATaco

And it was downvoted.

To hell.

ASCII-only

yay new permabounty

ATaco

02:43

And it didn't ban builtins.

ASCII-only

@ATaco :/ but only users with the graduation userscript can do that

Dennis

@ATaco Which, by pure coincidence, would only have affected your own language. >_>

ATaco

There are multiple languages with a goat builtin, and I didn't even participate. 😒

But it was a pretty bad challenge.

Destructible Lemon

(since you guys were discussing upvotes)

ASCII-only

@ATaco Including Charcoal :P

Downgoat

02:46

@ATaco :( are you talking about upgoat downgoat?

ATaco

I'm talking about Print 'Em Goats.

Destructible Lemon

kinda weird it uploaded as a jpg...

Downgoat

@DestructibleLemon 10/10 mspaint skills

Destructible Lemon

paintbrush*

ATaco

I should not be defined for my failures, but for my victories!

ASCII-only

02:49

someone pls i put a permabounty on hello world it can't be that hard (NOTE jk lol it'll take up a lot of your time)

Downgoat

[tag:link-reqest[]

Destructible Lemon

I like how the goat printing one had an error where the builtins didn't work

ASCII-only

@Downgoat things to beat

Destructible Lemon

@ASCII-only bounty for what?

ASCII-only

@DestructibleLemon pls read, i just said hello world

Destructible Lemon

02:51

??

ASCII-only

@MDXF chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/240?m=39527358#39527358

@DestructibleLemon did you even read the message >_>

@Mr.Xcoder I used something like this in the brain-flak optimizer :P

ATaco

@ASCII-only Of the 5 languages I have on TIO, you've got the most efficient Hello World in each.

Downgoat

@ASCII-only to be fair it is hard to click linik when you are a lemon, especially the mouse because fruits don't have any hands :P

Pavel

@ATaco 5?

ASCII-only

oh crap delimit is breaking the markdown

Pavel

02:53

RProgN, RProgN2, TacO, Maybe Later, what's the 5th?

@ASCII-only How?

Downgoat

sorry I am being major stupid today

Destructible Lemon

@ASCII-only what do you mean bounty on hello world? bounty for doing what

ATaco

Oh, wait, TacO.

6

Pavel

Also, people actually use Del|m|t?

ATaco

RProgN, RProgN2, Threead, TacO, ReRegex, MaybeLater.

And the TacO is also the most efficient possible.

Downgoat

02:55

:|

Destructible Lemon

@ASCII-only explain yourself!!!

ASCII-only

@DestructibleLemon outgolfing

ATaco

BORK ALERT 🚨 BORK ALERT 🚨 BORK ALERT

Destructible Lemon

ok that took too long

ASCII-only

yeah i was fixing things

@DestructibleLemon well also fixing the ones that don't work

e.g. the woefully one

Destructible Lemon

02:57

so do I get a bounty for making that hello world then?

ASCII-only

@DestructibleLemon Yes

Destructible Lemon

ok

might do that

ASCII-only

And since it isn't that easy (well it is more tedious than hard but hopefully you try and golf it after) I'd probably give >= 100 rep for that one

Destructible Lemon

hmmm

not sure whether to worry about someone else stealing the bounty

dang if only I had waited to make the sadflak hello world :P

well, I didn't write the docs very well so hehe

ASCII-only

@DestructibleLemon well I can give you a bounty for that if you really want :P

Destructible Lemon

03:05

nah that doesn't really make sense

well uh I can golf the program xd

golfed two bytes

actually I can golf it quite a bit

wait nvm I forgot how the program works xd

ASCII-only

@DestructibleLemon +1 well done :P

but if you can then pls try to golf it

Destructible Lemon

yeah I'm not sure I can golf it

I can't be sure it's optimal, but it would be very hard to figure out a better way

Pavel

I just read the Woefully docs.

I immediatly regret my decision.

ASCII-only

@Pavel +1

I can understand it fine though :P

@DestructibleLemon okay then, fair enough

Destructible Lemon

@ASCII-only like maybe bounty the explanation for the sadflak hello world if you think it's particularly good... idk but I heard i did a good job >_>

Pavel

03:14

I understand just enough to really realize why it's so terrible.

ASCII-only

@Pavel Yes. yes you do. it's probably the most verbose language out there atm

Pavel

Eh

Destructible Lemon

If you like the idea of woefully but not the tarpitifulness of programming it, try sad-flak

Pavel

You sure?

Lenguage might just be verboser.

Destructible Lemon

@ASCII-only without specifically having superlong commands like the beemoviescript one

or being lenguage

Pavel

03:16

Pyramid scheme is up there

Destructible Lemon

yeah true

but maybe not as much as this one

ATaco

@Downgoat I've updated the MathQuill userscript, if you've got it installed on its own, it should automatically update soon, or you can download it from Github again. If you've downloaded it as part of a bundle, you will need to update the bundle manually here.

Pavel

MathQuill?

ATaco

Latex editor.

Pavel

Neat

Downgoat

03:17

@ATaco $\text{cool}$ :D

:D it worked

ATaco

And of course you can do images just be preceding it with a /, pressing Shift+enter will append it as a block Mathjax, rather than inline.

$$Block$$ $Inline$

Destructible Lemon

xd for my sadflak explanation I forgot to use ctrl k

Pavel

@DestructibleLemon o_o the TIO hello world is over 600 bytes to output @

Is there an actual Hello World?

ASCII-only

@ATaco 0/10 you can't remove it once you place it

Destructible Lemon

@Pavel I don't think I ever wrote that and also doesn't it error out?

ASCII-only

03:20

@Pavel Not yet

Destructible Lemon

I think it's like a truncated version of another program or something

Pavel

Huh

Downgoat

@ATaco ooh cool

ATaco

@ASCII-only Delete the right side, then press escape to remove it.

Downgoat

images = ataco/generator image?

Destructible Lemon

03:21

it does not error out

I'm a bit confused about that

MD XF

@ASCII-only Oh yeah saw it

Pavel

@Downgoat /$$ is a taco chat command for a permalink to an image with the chatjax rendered

Destructible Lemon

and it's also unnecessarily verbose

MD XF

If a triangle was 1 byte larger I would've been able to shorten it by about 15 bytes

Pavel

If it's the only thing in the message, it will onebox.

ASCII-only

03:23

ah ok

Destructible Lemon

Woefully was the first language I made... it was also part of the reason I made Turtlèd

ASCII-only

@MDXF Why is your permabounty still up :/

MD XF

'cause lazy and still on mobile

brb grabbing RasPi

ASCII-only

@MDXF s/as//

MD XF

that works too

Pavel

03:37

I'm streaming music right now and I can't tell if it's stuttering because of my internet or because of my computer, which are both stupidly slow.

You'd think it's my internet but I can't even properly type text in a terminal.

ASCII-only

:/ Trying to do a golfy hello world in HBCHT

Pavel

y

MD XF

@ASCII-only status-completed

ASCII-only

@MDXF yay

seems like isaacg's is going to disappear soon too

MD XF

@ASCII-only isaacg's what?

Pavel

03:45

Is there a regex built in character class like . but to also match newlines?

/[.\n]/ isn't very golfy.

ASCII-only

@MDXF permabounty, one's been solved, the other one is almost done

MD XF

oh ok

ASCII-only

@Pavel no

MD XF

What's a good Unicode for a command to jump over commands? Non-emoji, non-cheesy

Pavel

@ASCII-only dammit

ASCII-only

03:48

@Pavel Unless it's ~~PHP~~ anything but JS regex and you use the s flag

Pavel

Ruby, actually.

What does the s flag do in JS?

ppperry

🔜

Pavel

Hmm, for Ruby the flag seems to be m

MD XF

U+1F51C? @ppperry

Why does it say soon?

Pavel

There isn't an s flag

ppperry

03:52

because that was the character I found

ASCII-only

@Pavel Nothing

ppperry

Or ➡️

ASCII-only

@Pavel Shouldn't be, multiline does something completely different

Pavel

Oh? It seems to make . match newlines.

Does it have other effects?

MD XF

@ppperry thx status completed at 0x85 (I used the same thing but non-emoji)

ATaco

03:57

🌮 is needed in any respectable codepage

MD XF

>.>

Wheat Wizard

@Pavel you could use [^]

ATaco

@WheatWizard That doesn't work in all flavours

Wheat Wizard

Works in javascript

Pavel

I explicitely stated Ruby

Wheat Wizard

04:01

Ah, well has anyone tested it in ruby?

ATaco

I think Ruby uses similar to golang, which it doesn't work in.

Pavel

I'm doing it right now

Wheat Wizard

Doesn't work in ruby

Pavel

Nope

ATaco

I think it only works in JS.

Wheat Wizard

04:02

.|\n is still shorter than [.\n]

ATaco

(Yeah, but only in some situations)

([.\n]*) is shorter than ((.|\n)*)

Wheat Wizard

That is true

In fact I can't imagine a use other than the raw expression where it is shorter

Pavel

/./m seems golfiest

Wheat Wizard

what about the mysterious side effects of m?

Pavel

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Hopefully they don't actually exist

Wheat Wizard

04:06

You should read the docs

Pavel

I am

They aren't loading very quickly

Or at all, as far as I can tell.

Wheat Wizard

It looks like there are none

Pavel

ruby-doc.org/core-2.4.1/Regexp.html

Wheat Wizard

yep thats what I read, plus 2 questions on SO

Pavel

Cool.

Wheat Wizard

04:11

I like that ruby has builtin regex literals, its quite nice

Pavel

Absolutely.

Pavel

04:26

> In any case, an undocumented method can do whatever it likes.

Yeah, but I'd rather Object#methods throw an error of some kind indicating it doesn't exist rather than just returning an empty array.

Wheat Wizard

Nonsense if your program doesn't error it can't have bugs

Pavel

Object#methods existed in Ruby 1.x, but when they removed it from Ruby 2.x, they just made it quietly return an empty array instead of erroring.

ATaco

May 17 at 20:38, by ETHproductions

@Mego Golfing language design tip #1: Every possible error is just a wasted opportunity to do something useful

Pavel

Ruby sits firmly in the Practical section of TIO.

ATaco

So does Perl :P

Pavel

04:34

Fair enough XD

.oO(It's not really XD worthy but I didn't want to use :P in a message replying to another one also using :P)

Dennis

The Practical Extraction and Report Language? There's a shocker.

Pavel

TIL

ATaco

@Dennis That's a Backronym, Perl is not an Acronym. cite

Dennis

Well, that's what my Perl book told me.

Pavel

> A sever memory leak may have occurred. Would you like to report this issue to JetBrains?
> Warning: Project was not garbage collected within 300 seconds.

Well now I know why Visual Studio hasn't been working for me at all.

Dennis

04:40

Also, esolangs.org/wiki/Perl.

Wheat Wizard

There is a special place in my heart for a practical language that can be written in 90% symbols.

example

ATaco

And Javascript..?

Wheat Wizard

I do very much like Javascripts super weak typing. Allows for some great symbol soup

ATaco

I would like to remind everyone we managed to get turing completeness out of 5 characters

Dennis

Weak typing is great for code golf et al., but I very much prefer strong typing for everything else.

Pavel

04:48

Absolutely.

ATaco

Going into Java from Lua was like getting a weight lifted off my chest, surprisingly.

Pavel

I have never once been in a C# situation where I felt that the dynamic type was a solution to a problem I had.

ATaco

When Writing RProgN2, I wanted Dynamic Typing very badly.

Dennis

Weak typing is usually a problem to a solution you had.

2

Wheat Wizard

I really enjoy weak typing even when I'm not golfing. I don't like writing code and it makes things easier.

Pavel

04:54

@ATaco Well.....

*cough* C# *cough*

Wheat Wizard

Math seems to love weak typing, everyone is always concerned with making things into sets.

Dennis

Or classes if you're fed up with the limitations of ZFC.

Pavel

ZFC?

Dennis

Zermelo-Fraenkel with the Axiom of Choice.

Pavel

Is this just me? I'm on mobile chat and there's a weird black dot to the bottom left of the send button.

Dennis

05:15

→ 26 messages moved to Who shaves the barber?

Challenger5

Question: Why does chat say I have about 500 more rep than I really do?

...
(Filler so my rep is visible)

Dennis

Chat shows network rep.

Challenger5

Oh...

So I guess the correct question is "Why does PPCG say I have about 500 less rep than I really do"

In which case the answer is obvious.

ASCII-only

05:37

@WheatWizard but the only language that really has weak typing is JS :P

Wheat Wizard

@ASCII-only Python has some weak typing but not nearly as much as JS.

ASCII-only

05:53

@WheatWizard but... Why do you enjoy weak typing

Pavel

06:19

I always confuse weak and dynamic typing.

ASCII-only

06:55

I just found a typo in a random book I found from searching "19th byte"

how... just how did they manage to write cnsigned

Makes you wonder whether 90% of the examples in the book actually compile lol

@ATaco Also one

Emigna

@ASCII-only Maybe they accidentally rotated the "u" 90 degrees :P

ATaco

@ASCII-only Is this the book?

ASCII-only

@ATaco Yes. Yes it is.

@Emigna :/ I don't think Charcoal existed back then

Also: That reminds me Charcoal can't do that yet lol I need to implement operator overloads for lambdas someday

ASCII-only

08:12

woah

Mayube

08:35

Morning folks

Adám

@Mayube That's a relative statement.

Fatalize

Works for me

Qwerp-Derp

Should I make a GH repo which just complains about features I don't like about various languages (mainly in syntax)?

:P

Fatalize

If those syntax elements can be improved, you should rather submit possible improvements to the creator

ASCII-only

@Qwerp-Derp Yes

muddyfish

08:50

Braces should be removed in the next major version of C/++

ASCII-only

@muddyfish why.

Qwerp-Derp

@Fatalize Hmm, but what if they're super-underlying issues that are literally part of the language?

muddyfish

@ASCII-only Because I don't like them

ASCII-only

@muddyfish :/ just use PyPy/Crystal then

Qwerp-Derp

For example, Dart's stupid dynamic typing, which actually makes your code slightly slower when you do static typing

(At least, I'm pretty sure Dart does that)

ASCII-only

09:22

@Qwerp-Derp Does Dart even have static typing

@Qwerp-Derp You may be referring to checked mode, which is ignored at runtime and is only to help debug

ASCII-only

09:34

@Qwerp-Derp Also there's a reason for that (it compiles to JS), but Dart 2 will be fully compiled so yay speedups

Qwerp-Derp

Well the complaint for that only applies to Dart 1 then :P

Also it's super painful to set up C and C++ bindings for Dart

And then there's Swift, which is made by Apple, which therefore means that it's virtually impossible to use on Windows

It's possible, but it requires a lot of work, and if it doesn't work then Apple probably won't fix it

ASCII-only

09:51

@Qwerp-Derp Well yeah? That's intentional

Do you really think they would actually encourage people to use Windows by doing something like that?

Mayube

I wanna make a .NET compiler for verbosely, but it's not really OO enough to transpile to C#, and I'm not sure about compiling to CIL

ASCII-only

@Mayube Just use Roslyn :P

Mayube

Roslyn?

oh hmm

Qwerp-Derp

@ASCII-only That's the point :P

@Mayube Use F# :P

Or just don't use .NET and use something like Clojure or Crystal :P, but that's my opinion

Mayube

> compiling to JVM

yea no ty

Qwerp-Derp

10:02

@Mayube You mean Clojure?

ASCII-only

[pls ignore] O_o minxomat knows Red Means Recording (well at least kinda, on twitter)

Qwerp-Derp

Yeah that's pretty much it's only downside if you're concerned with making languages

Mayube

Red Means Recording is pretty good

Qwerp-Derp

I made a theme for VSCode!

Mayube

10:25

but... but why?

ASCII-only

@Mayube why not

@Qwerp-Derp It's a pretty big downside

Mayube

not a fan of VSCode

Qwerp-Derp

@Mayube I like VSCode :P and it's a .tmTheme, which means it works with Sublime and Atom and stuff like that as well

ASCII-only

@Qwerp-Derp Don't forget TextMate

Qwerp-Derp

@ASCII-only That too :P

ASCII-only

10:35

Also Ace Code editor which is the objectively best editor of all time :P

@Qwerp-Derp That's where the tm comes from

Qwerp-Derp

Yeah, I know that :P

HyperNeutrino

10:46

@everyone Should I try to fix my question or should I have it closed and rewrite it?

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