English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

5:00 AM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Well, I don't know about your country, but here we don't really have such "minor" offences that the police could really fine you for, unless they totally create fake evidence or something.

David Wallace

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yeah, I think that most law-abiding NZ citizens would be pretty safe in that regard. If I were arrested for some minor infringement that the police happened to discover by sending someone round to look for violations in my house, the judge would probably just laugh it off.

Cerberus

I think they do in America, with their insanely severe punishments for certain things.

@DavidWallace What kind of infringement could that possibly be?

And what kind of infringement could possibly be bad enough to actually arrest you for, instead of simply fining you?

David Wallace

I'm trying to think what I have in my house that would be evidence of a crime. I can't think of anything off the top of my head.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Come on. There are tons of ways a cop could make your life miserable. They could tail you and ticket you for every single plausible traffic violation. There are city by-laws with fines attached. They could start a tax audit. They could do lots of things.

Cerberus

@DavidWallace Nor I. I think I'm really, really law-abiding.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

5:02 AM

@DavidWallace Not a single copyright violation?

Cerberus

Now, if they should change the law to forbid downloading, then most of the country would be turned into criminals.

David Wallace

I probably have some illegal copies of DVDs.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Make your life miserable, granted. But fine you for violations you actually committed?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

If you have porn on your computer, they could trump up some child porn charges, which could make your life miserable even if they are thrown out.

@Cerberus The thing is, there are tons of laws that you don't even know about.

David Wallace

Umm, only if I had child porn, surely.

Cerberus

5:04 AM

Let's distinguish between making your life miserable by unnecessary check-ups and forging evidence on the one hand, and fining or arresting you for violations you actually committed on the other.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Like, laws controlling the trade of, and ownership of ivory. These are laws that get included by reference into national/state laws. i.e. international treaties that automatically become laws in your jurisdiction.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I really think there aren't that many that would apply.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@DavidWallace only if you had child porn, or anything that could be construed as possibly child porn.

@Cerberus Did you ever see the video where a defence lawyer explains why you should never, ever talk to police?

David Wallace

Umm, this may be a naive question, but what might I have that could be construed as child porn?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@DavidWallace porn where the actor/actress in question could conceivably be under 18.

Cerberus

5:06 AM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I don't know about your country, but I heard that this is the case in America, yes. It is possible that there is some tiny law or regulation that I don't know of, of course; but I really think it would be very hard to find.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes. I took that as evidence of how fucked up the American justice system is.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus It is not merely possible. It is fact, and what is impossible is that any one person actually knows all the laws that apply.

David Wallace

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I don't actually think there is any porn on any of the computers in my house. But since I'm not the only person who lives here, I can't be 100% certain.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@DavidWallace It was a hypothetical example, to be sure :)

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 The ideal is that laws only forbid what a reasonable person wouldn't do anyway, or would be in doubt about (and inquire into before doing).

Oh, I know something.

2

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus "ideal", sure. But "ideally" police are always honest and well-meaning and never barge into your house with the intention of harassing you.

Anyway, the point is, this is why the police need warrants. They should have to convince a judge (who is "ideally" impartial) that the search is warranted (so to speak)

Cerberus

5:09 AM

I think uploading copyrighted material is officially forbidden if you have no license and aren't the owner of the copyright. But I think the official regulation, as issued my the Department of Justice, is that private persons are not prosecuted. So I can be 100 % sure that I won't be fined for that.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I agree with this.

5 mins ago, by Cerberus

Let's distinguish between making your life miserable by unnecessary check-ups and forging evidence on the one hand, and fining or arresting you for violations you actually committed on the other.

I think these laws should mostly protect you against the former, in a country with a proper justicial system.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Even if they don't forge evidence. It's highly likely that there is SOMETHING they can plausibly charge you with.

Cerberus

Aren't you comparing American law to Dutch law?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I don't think it's reasonable for the police to, eg, go door-to-door and fine everyone who's downloaded a song or copied a DVD.

Cerberus

Again, that is legal here.

Just like buying pot.

And prostitution.

David Wallace

Copying DVDs is legal in the Netherlands? Are you sure?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

5:11 AM

That's not the point. substitute in whatever minor offence which is routinely done and officially disapproved-of but tacitly ignored.

Cerberus

I violate some traffic regulations occasionally. They could follow me around and fine me a couple of times.

David Wallace

They could fine you once. Then you'd learn.

Cerberus

@DavidWallace Yes, absolutely. Selling the copies is not.

David Wallace

Speechless.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Like which? Our laws are really far more realistic than American law.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

5:13 AM

@Cerberus hehe "like which", as if I know what's legal and what's not in your country.

how about "drinking under age"

Cerberus

@DavidWallace It may be legal in your country too. I am almost sure that making a copy for yourself is legal in your country too: it is even legal in America.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus America, paradoxically, has among the weakest copyright laws in the world.

David Wallace

@Cerberus I'm almost sure that it isn't. But surely, in the Netherlands, you can't then give those copies to someone?

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Drinking is allowed here at any age, only selling is not allowed to over-16s. It does happen, that is true; but you'd have to be a shopkeeper or a bar owner to be fined.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus really? hm.

Cerberus

5:15 AM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It has fair use, which is in theory quite broad (but not in practice); but in all other ways? Pretty strong! Or what did you have in mind?

David Wallace

And yes, I think I've probably got quite a lot of copied music in my house, now that I think about it. When I owned a car with a stereo that only had a cassette player, I would copy my music CDs onto cassette tapes, so that I could listen to them in the car. That is illegal in New Zealand.

However, if I were arrested for it, I am certain I would not be convicted.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus the fair use laws allow quite a bit of leeway in making copies. Lots of uses that are legal in USA are, eg, illegal in Canada. The DMCA muddies it a bit because copying a DVD often requires breaking CSS which is illegal, even though making the copy is not illegal.

Cerberus

@DavidWallace I think it is 100 % legal if you give them to friends or relatives; and it is illegal if you give them to strangers, but then the official policy as issued by the Department of Justice, as I said above, is that you will not be prosecuted if you are a private person, so you will be 100 % safe, I believe. Only if you do it commercially and/or get paid for it will they prosecute.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus But can you rely on a guideline like that? That law is what is passed in legislature, not what some memo says.

David Wallace

Hmm, legal if it's a friend; illegal if it's a stranger. Do you need a certificate to prove friendship?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

5:18 AM

The wrong combination of police/prosecutors could probably get you convicted.

Cerberus

@DavidWallace Are you quite sure? I really really think making a private copy for your own use of a song that you already own is legal in nearly every country.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus nope, that's not a good assumption.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Right, the DRM stuff.

David Wallace

@Cerberus I'm really very sure.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus There are exceptions to the DRM stuff and also ways to copy DVDs that don't necessarily "break" the DRM. But the law itself is contradictory, one one hand giving freedoms (lots!) and on the other hand taking them away.

Cerberus

5:20 AM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It's not a memo, it's policy, and "policy measures" have force of law, as long as they don't contradict actual laws, of course.

@DavidWallace Haha, if only you spoke Dutch: there is this brilliant Belgian programme where they make fun of certain of these stupid rules from the collecting agency.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 That is absolutely impossible here.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Provided that you don't crack DRM.

David Wallace

@Cerberus Who says I don't speak Dutch?

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Hmm now that you mention it, I read about that.

@DavidWallace Then speak it!

Oh, wait, you already have.

I remember your saying Cruyff.

David Wallace

Hahaha.

I was speaking English when I said Cruyff. Remember the sintinces?

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 So anyway, there could be some tiny rule that I am breaking, but it will be extremely rare, nothing like America, which is the complete opposite.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus No. What I mean is that lots of countries don't allow personal copies of stuff. For any reason.

Cerberus

5:24 AM

@DavidWallace Ah, you were speaking English when you were trying to pronounce Cruyff the Dutch way, yes, of course.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Are you sure?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I live in one.

David Wallace

The Dutch way? Cruyff is a man's name; surely there's only one correct way to pronounce it, and that's however Cruyff himself says it?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Well, the law changed very recently. I'm not up to date.

But until the most recent change, personal copies of anything but music was forbidden.

Cerberus

> In Australia[1] and New Zealand[2] a copy of any legally purchased music may be made by its owner, as long as it is not distributed to others and its use remains personal.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Music had a special exemption on account of levies that were being collected.

Cerberus

5:25 AM

Ripping

Ripping is the process of copying audio or video content to a hard disk, typically from removable media such as CD or DVD, although the word refers to all forms of media. Despite the name, neither the media nor the data is damaged after extraction. Ripping is often used to shift formats, and to edit, duplicate or back up media content. Digital Audio Extraction (DAE) is a more formal phrase applied to the ripping of audio CDs. A rip is the copied content, in its destination format, along with accompanying files (such as a cue sheet or log file from the ripping software). Ripping is distin...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus yes, music, but what about DVDs?

Cerberus

We were talking about music.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus and DVDs

David Wallace

@Cerberus What's your source?

Cerberus

It doesn't say.

@DavidWallace ^ Wiki.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

5:26 AM

for many years, actually... until 2012, I think, even using a VCR to tape a television show was illegal in Canada.

Cerberus

Ridiculous.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Yes, ridiculous, and yet, still illegal.

David Wallace

@Cerberus Right, I get all my legal advice from Wikipedia.

Cerberus

Perhaps your laws are not as bad as American law, but that sucks.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

You can't expect me to believe that there are no similar ridiculous laws still on the books in your country

It's simply impossible

Cerberus

5:28 AM

@DavidWallace The burden of proof, or at least of some convincing explanation, is now on you!

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 "No" is a strong word, but they would be very rare.

I think traffic regulations are the main common ones.

David Wallace

@Cerberus Yes, but so is the expectation that I shall now leave this chat room and eat my dinner. The burden of proof will have to wait.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I think you underestimate the sheer number of laws on the books.

David Wallace

See y'all.

Cerberus

Bai!

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I know there are tons, but...

Can you think of such a rule in your own country? Perhaps we can find one that also applies to my country but that I fail to think of?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus lots of dumb laws get passed, then enforcement wanes, and the laws are forgotten instead of repealed.

@Cerberus No. But for example there is a law criminalizing possession of a lobster under a certain length in the US.

That law probably applies here and for you too.

Cerberus

5:31 AM

As I said, my impression of American law is very bad.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

It originates in a maritime treaty about fishing.

if your country is part of that treaty, then the treaty probably applies automatically.

Cerberus

A treaty does not automatically become law: it merely means that the country is forced to make such a law, right?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Now, I have zero lobsters in my house, so that particular law doesn't apply. But I had no idea that it was even a possibility! I've caught lobster-like animals before... who knows if that was legal or not?

@Cerberus well, they may have passed a law that says "blah blah this treaty" and then bingo, the treaty text is one of your laws.

Anyway I'm sure you don't even know which treaties your country is part of. They're innumerable.

Cerberus

Of course.

Take only the EU treaties.

But I think these weird regulations mainly apply to businesses.

Businesses can easily violate regulations unwittingly.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

There are laws, supposedly, on the books in the UK that say "in the town of blah, it is legal to kill a Scottish man on sight if he is carrying a bow and arrow", or something like that. This is a left-over law from centuries ago when there was warfare. but it is still on the books. Granted: it would almost certainly be struck down, officially, if it were ever examined or tried. But what else is there? Who can know?

Cerberus

5:36 AM

The books of law are not that many. They are updated and revised regularly.

I think local regulations would be most likely to contain some freak rules that you could violate.

As to the armed Scotchman, have you checked that story?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus local, provincial (do you have provinces, or some such?), national, EU, international... lots of layers of laws

Cerberus

English law doesn't have a great reputation. You know their defamation laws?

Yes, we have provinces.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus No. I have tried to verify several of the "stupid law" stories and never found any good sources. But given what I know about law making from what actual lawyers have said, and from reading the news, I'm sure that at least SOME of those laws are real.

@Cerberus Well, that's one particularly bad law. Not all of their laws are so bad. And the US actually has a fairly good legal framework. Their constitution and bill of rights is very good.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 They have their war on drugs and file-sharing. And they have juries. And that stuff about how if something you said turns out to be untrue, you are suddenly very likely to be convicted of a crime, i.e. that counts as some sort of proof. But that may not be in a law. What is in their laws is their many, many outrageously harsh punishments.

They have their non-inquisitive judges.

They have tons of very vague laws, like fair use, which don't work very well because of the vagueness.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Nah, the fair use law is a good one because of its vagueness.

Cerberus

5:46 AM

They have the fact that the loser hardly ever has to pay the legal expense of the winner (also related to the non-inquisitive judges).

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

And I think the "if something you said turns out to be untrue" it is A) exaggerated and B) not part of the law. What it means is that if you are pinned down in a lie, then it calls into doubt all your testimony. The extent to which a judge or jury will leap to conclusions depends on the people in question.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 No, it's bad, because, in combination with non-inquisitive judges and non-reclaimable legal expenses, the vagueness makes it very hard to defend a case against a wealthy plaintiff, and very expensive, and your still lose tons of money even if you win.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Nah, you can counter-sue for costs, I'm pretty sure. But that's civil law, not criminal law.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 All right, it may not be law. But it must be a serious problem, what with that professor's talk we watched.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 You can, but it is almost never granted.

That's what I always read.

Not getting your expenses reimbursed by the loser combined with non-inquisitive judges is also what makes their patent laws extra destructive.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus No, that's now how the fair use exemption of the copyright law works.

Cerberus

5:49 AM

Note: because you rarely get your expenses back in Dutch family law, like divorces, our system is also rotten in that regard.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Sure it does.

If you do nothing, the plaintiff wins.

Even if you would easily win with a decent lawyer and tons of paperwork.

That's what I read all the time.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus nah. read the fair use law. it's pretty simple. It doesn't, itself, have anything to do with the fact that civil trials are unbalanced by wealth. That is a whole nother problem.

@Cerberus EVERY civil trial is like that.

Cerberus

Not "itself", I said "combined with": the vagueness becomes a liability because of the non-inquisitive judges and no expenses.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Not here.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

You're conflating problems with civil law in general, and problems with specific civil codes, like copyright.

@Cerberus No? How do they prevent a wealthy plaintiff from overwhelming a defendant with motions, or paperwork?

Cerberus

How is that conflating? I explicitly say "combined with" all the time, to indicate that the two only become a problem in combination.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 The judge does more work.

David Wallace

Ah, it seems our copyright laws changed dramatically last year. It is now legal to make one copy of each of your CDs, for personal use only. However, my cassette copies of my CDs were made before that law change; so they were made illegally. Of course, nobody can prove when they were made.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

5:53 AM

@DavidWallace hah, you give it away with the word "cassette". Nobody made any cassette copies last year.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Sure, it's not always clear cut, and sometimes an expensive lawyers helps a lot. But you are in a far better position as a poor defendant in a system where the judge takes the initiative and researches the facts and whatnot.

@DavidWallace Uhh that Wikipedia reference was from a law passed in 1994.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus The point is, many countries have much stricter restrictions on copyright than you expect. Despite the fact that nobody pays attention to it and infringement is rampant and enforcement is nil.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 That may be so; my only point was that I believed that making a private copy for yourself, of your own CD, was legal in NZ.

> Hij die zich, zonder daartoe gerechtigd te zijn, bevindt op enige grond die bezaaid, bepoot of beplant is, of die ter bezaaiing, bepoting of beplanting is gereedgemaakt, of gedurende de maanden mei tot en met oktober op enig wei- of hooiland, wordt gestraft met geldboete van de eerste categorie.

"If you enter a pasture without being "allowed(?)" to do so in the months May–October, you will be fined."

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Does this count as a weird law that you may violate unwittingly?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus That is a weird law. Why only those months?

Cerberus

Probably because you might then damage the grass that is to be mowed and stored for cows in winter?

But another thing about Dutch law is that judges are freer to interpret laws and contracts according to certain general principles.

In this case, if you simply enter a pasture and don't damage the grass much, a judge will say the owner's interest was not harmed and no damage was caused, so you won't be fined, I bet.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

6:05 AM

hm

Cerberus

But you never know.

This is admittedly not a 100 % clear case.

If a farmer complains and a policeman is nearby, who knows? He might fine you.

And the complaint of the farmer might be seen as reason enough to uphold the fine.

>
Artikel 435d
Met hechtenis van ten hoogste een maand of geldboete van de tweede categorie wordt gestraft hij die het wapen van het Zwitserse Eedgenootschap of een teken hetwelk een nabootsing daarvan vormt, gebruikt:
1°. hetzij als fabrieks- of handelsmerk of als onderdeel van zulk een merk;
2°. hetzij met een doel, strijdig met de eerlijkheid in de handel;
3°. hetzij onder omstandigheden die het Zwitserse nationale gevoel zouden kunnen krenken.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 "If you use an imitation of the Swiss coat of arms in a way that might harm Swiss national sentiments, you will be punished by imprisonment of at most one month or by a fine."

How do you like this one?

That amounts to censorship.

If you use the Swiss coat of arms in somewhat rude parody, you will be punished, at least in theory.

But the judge can punish you with 0 days of imprisonment, because it only names a maximum.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus unsurprising. Lots of countries have similar laws. I'm opposed, of course. But completely unsurprised.

Cerberus

I know you are.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Well, most likely, you would be first asked to stop, then threatened with the law, then arrested, at which point you are likely to be punished.

Cerberus

In practice?

I don't think so.

The judge would most likely read "harm national sentiments" in a very strict way to get out of it.

We are supposing that a policeman is trying to get me fined for this, right?

In fact, the prosecutor will simply drop the case. That's what usually happens.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

6:16 AM

@Cerberus I dunno anymore. It's 2am. past.

Cerberus

If the policeman were out to get me, and his colleagues were too, then perhaps they could lock me up me for a day or so? I actually don't know for what kinds of offences they are allowed to lock you up temporarily.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 But we're only 5 hours into this conversation! Sissy.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus they could just lie and say you were drunk

Cerberus

Being drunk and inhibiting traffic, yes.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

throw you in jail overnight as a precaution

"for your own good"

Cerberus

But then we are back at forging evidence.

They can always do that.

Independently of any violations on my part.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

6:21 AM

well, maybe Dutch law is perfectly clear and there are no gotchas in it. But I'm sure many, if not most countries have laws that can be used to trap honest citizens, given a motivated police officer and prosecutor.

Cerberus

sentinelassam.com/ghy_city/…

> No poisonous spiders in Assam: Experts

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

heh

okay. So I thought I was close to finishing my code. But I realize now that that was insane. therefore I am signing off and going to bed. Morning will come in 4 hours.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I'm sure there are some such laws or regulations here, but not any that a judge would actually convict you on, I think. All I can say is that I'm sure we have many fewer such laws here than in America.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

bye!

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Oh, no!

That's early!

Take care.

Noah

6:56 AM

Take care

Hi

Hi @Cerberus do you know how to cook chicken soap?

Or do I have to go ask my mom?

David Wallace

7:29 AM

@Noah Do you have a sachet; or are you talking about boiling up bones and adding stuff?

Jusfeel

8:44 AM

@JasperLoy y. I like to think it that way

user19161

9:42 AM

I answered 6 ELL questions today, phew!

user19161

@Noah Chicken soup or chicken soap? Geezis.

tchrist

@Reg This is hilarious:

It doesn't seem any more odd than, say, "sock puppets in moderation." — J.R. 1 hour ago

RegDwighт

10:09 AM

@Jasper has answered two Nortons.

I've long lost count how many Barrie has served.

tchrist

That is actually one of the feature-vectors in my expert detection system: see whether Barry has answered. Guess I need to add @Jasper.

And now we have a Yoshi.

RegDwighт

10:32 AM

And now we have an answer.

I don't see how it makes sense paired with the verb.

Robusto

11:12 AM

I just answered the "Due to" question with an NGram. It seemed a good use of the service.

Matt Эллен

11:24 AM

perfect

KitFox

11:49 AM

@tchrist I wonder if he even notices, or if he just thinks this site is weird because he has to create a new account every time he wants to ask a question.

Robusto

12:06 PM

@MattЭллен I'm wondering what is this "thing" that @Cerberus knows. Is he keeping it hidden from us?

RegDwighт

He only knows it. He doesn't remember it.

Robusto

I think he's holding out on us.

Sly, evil doggy that he is.

Matt Эллен

Maybe he knows who stole the cookie from the cookie jar

Robusto

If he does, I hope he keeps that to himself.

That is the sort of information that brings down governments.

tchrist

@RegDwighт Not that I can see.

Matt Эллен

12:19 PM

I like the Google doodle today

Robusto

@MattЭллен I don't see a doodle. Only a snowy landscape.

tchrist

@Robusto I have a sneaking suspicion that Victorians forbad sentences from starting with “Due to”, as it seems not to have occurred all that much in the 19th century. I wonder how long we in the 21st century must strive to avoid offending the delicate sensibilities of those in the 19th?

Robusto

We should also not use the term "legs" because that is offensive. And we should put fluffy skirts on piano legs lest young men get aroused.

tchrist

@MattЭллен E pur si muove!

Robusto

@tchrist You have an appointment with the Inquisition. I hope you are ready to renounce your heresy.

tchrist

12:25 PM

What if fluffy skirts are the real tentraisers here?

Robusto

Then God will know whom to punish.

tchrist

> La frase, che molti ritengono pronunciata da Galileo Galilei al tribunale dell'Inquisizione al termine dell'abiura dell'eliocentrismo, in realtà è stata inventata da Giuseppe Baretti, che aveva ricostruito la vicenda in maniera anticattolica, per il pubblico inglese in un'antologia pubblicata a Londra nel 1757, Italian Library.

I must confess that my piano has profoundly attractive legs. It is part of why we are together.

Robusto

Tell it to the Inquisition.

tchrist

> La frase viene ancora usata, nel lessico giornalistico e colloquiale, per esprimere un dubbio che resiste a tutte le rassicurazioni (o le intimidazioni) fornite dall'interlocutore.

I am just surprised to see the google doodle so jittery. I usually have movement turned off. They seem to have avoided that.

The image is full of hotspots.

NPR said the average American over the age of majority will spend $80 on Halloween costuming and $42 on Halloween candying this year.

I suppose it is cheaper than ¢hri$tma$, but gah.

RegDwighт

What a pointless waste.

No wonder the economy is down.

tchrist

12:35 PM

It would be down if they were not spending it, I believe the “thinking” goes.

RegDwighт

That's the greatest flaw in the entire concept.

Our current economy only works through growth.

More, more, more.

tchrist

That $42 invested in this year’s candy guarantees next year’s costumes will be even more dear for the size++ effect.

KitFox

Happy New Year.

tchrist

Pas encore.

RegDwighт

Happy Past Year!

Aug 8 at 17:11, by RegDwight АΑA

@ΜετάEd New Year is so overrated. Nobody ever celebrates Old Year — that awesome year in which they could lay back and slack and procrastinate to their heart's content. Instead everybody goes crazy about the year in which they will have to keep all their stupid resolutions. That's like celebrating Monday, to the 52nd power.

tchrist

12:39 PM

Our annus horribilis is not deemed past us till the stupid election is counted and done.

It’s kind of a woodchuck moment.

KitFox

@RegDwighт Yeah, I guess last year was good enough to celebrate.

@tchrist There's an election?

tchrist

Of course. We’re voting to choose whether we are to be ruled by C. sativa or by C. indica.

I’m thinking indica is apt to win.

RegDwighт

Some stupid US network is now running TV ads in Germany how they have not one but six pay-per-view channels covering the US elections 24/7. The tone is not too humble, either. "The most important elections in the greatest country on Earth" style nonsense sprinkled all over it. I am not sure if I should laugh or cry.

It's so pathetic. Don't they realize it?

tchrist

What marks this period as different is that I am normally impervious to mass-media advertising, being a complete mass-media recluse. I have no TV, and listen only to NPR (well that’s not true, but close enough). And the bastards have managed to insinuate themselves into my life this time around in sneakier ways than before.

Are they mad?

RegDwighт

That shitload of money gotta be spent on something. As long as it's ads, not healthcare, that is.

KitFox

12:44 PM

I'm usually very politically involved. This time, I'm not. As I told my husband, I don't see the point in watching the debates. I already know who I am voting for and my mind is not going to change.

RegDwighт

The debates are a false dichotomy anyway.

There are literally thousands of better candidates.

In the greatest country on Earth, with a population of 300 million.

tchrist

I believe the true purpose of the debates is circuslike entertainment, nothing less and nothing more.

Anybody who changes their mind hasn’t been paying attention.

RegDwighт

@tchrist I believe that's the last thing the majority of the viewers take away from them.

It's fomenting unrest and division.

KitFox

Well, for me it's a choice between someone who has done a pretty good job and who I also find attractive with a hot wife and a nice family, and an self-important sexist patronizing jackass snob who feels entitled. Pretty easy choice there.

tchrist

They often have their risibilities.

RegDwighт

12:48 PM

See, what does a hot wife and a nice family have to do with anything?

tchrist

@KitFox You really are lukewarm about it all, aren’t you? I have finer things to say about Willard than that.

KitFox

@RegDwighт It demonstrates that he is sufficiently non-sexist and also has family values.

RegDwighт

Berlusconi has hundreds of hot wives.

tchrist

I do believe he would make a poorer president than he did governor, though. He has different puppetmasters now.

RegDwighт

And family values is what Bush run on. And won. You are scaring the shit out of me right now, Kit. Seriously.

tchrist

12:49 PM

spose di sera, or some such.

RegDwighт

What do family values have to do with anything?

tchrist

NFI

RegDwighт

They are in the eye of the beholder anyway.

As are hot wives.

I couldn't care less about Michelle.

tchrist

It’s an emotional pushbutton thingie.

RegDwighт

Exactly.

KitFox

12:51 PM

@RegDwighт No, Bush called hatred and bigotry family values, but he didn't really run on real family values.

tchrist

Michelle doesn’t matter at all.

KitFox

Sure she does.

How can she not?

RegDwighт

She does. But she should not.

tchrist

She is not a reason to vote or withhold one’s vote.

KitFox

A man's choice of partner communicates a lot about what kind of person he is.

tchrist

12:52 PM

What, you have something against equestriennes?

RegDwighт

@KitFox You're saying that as if you knew the first thing about Michelle Obama.

We don't know shit. None of us.

tchrist

Does her race matter?

RegDwighт

It's all smoke and mirrors, and only the smoke and the mirrors they want us to see.

tchrist

Nearly always.

KitFox

@tchrist Was she in the Triple Crown or something?

@RegDwighт You can say that, but if it's all smoke and mirrors, I am really not impressed with the smoke and mirrors that the Republicans are presenting.

RegDwighт

12:53 PM

@KitFox see, that was my original point. False dichotomy.

They are presenting you with smoke and mirrors, and then with worse smoke, and still crappier mirrors. And you happily go with the smoke and mirrors, of course.

tchrist

The thing is that sometimes the shadowplay sold to one closed segment differs from the one sold to another, and if there is a way for those two segments to compare notes, the candidate has a real problem with image control. What nobody points out is that it is lies on both sides of the wall.

RegDwighт

No-smoke-and-no-mirrors is never even an option, and that is the problem.

KitFox

Yeah, but so what?

tchrist

Why oh why do the Republikers manage to hoodwink the working classes into voting for them?

RegDwighт

@KitFox so you get smoke and mirrors where you need a government.

Everything else follows.

tchrist

12:57 PM

Both my states are filled with rural people who will be nothing but harmed by the Republicans, but keep voting for them. I Do Not Get It.

Is it this way everywhere?

RegDwighт

Yeah.

KitFox

@RegDwighт That's not really what I was discussing anyway. You're talking about the system, I'm talking about the election.

RegDwighт

I am talking about the election that gets you the system, and is part of the system.

KitFox

@tchrist Yep. There is a woman we know with a terminally ill child who has been seriously personally screwed by the Rs, and is yet very vocal in her support of them.

@RegDwighт Yeah, but that's not going to change.

RegDwighт

That's loser talk.

Seriously.

tchrist

12:59 PM

I have too many seen too many recent health-care disasters in my close family this past year to forget so quickly.

RegDwighт

That is loser talk.

tchrist

All because of the fucked up American non-system.

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