English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

RegDwighт

4:00 PM

I'm an absolute beginner myself, but I'd say, focus on the object.

Matt Эллен

how many arms and leg are what I'd worry about. I'm assuming you're a head in a jar...

RegDwighт

Yes, I'm a head in the polls.

A Head in the Polls

"A Head in the Polls" is the third episode in the second production season of Futurama. It originally aired in North America on December 12, 1999 as episode seven in the second broadcast season. The episode was written by J. Stewart Burns and directed by Bret Haaland. Claudia Schiffer makes a guest appearance as herself. The title is a pun on the common phrase "Ahead in the polls". Plot The election race for President of Earth is in full swing, with two identical clones as candidates. Leela, appalled by the apathy of the Planet Express crew, exhorts them to register to vote. Meanwhile, a ...

Robusto

►

Not to mention proto-metal bands.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Robusto well, Zepp was also a sort of folk band. Like half their songs are stolen directly from folk singers.

actually, including that one

Robusto

You don't have to be a folk band to steal folk songs. But folk bands frequently stole from each other or from Leadbelly, whichever.

RegDwighт

4:04 PM

Good writers borrow, great writers steal.

Robusto

@RegDwighт If you're going to paraphrase Eliot, at least give an attribution.

RegDwighт

Funny.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Wikipedia says that "When the Levee breaks" is about The Great Mississippi Flood

Robusto

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 New Orleans is on (or under) the Mississippi, last time I checked.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Robusto but it's not those levees that are breaking in the song.

Not that the song makes any of that explicit.

I interpret it as a song about any place with levees

Robusto

4:09 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 But it is levees, and they are/were on the Mississippi. I take it as poetic license to speak of all levees, and all conservative disdain for the people living beneath them.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Robusto disdain? really?

Robusto

Contempt?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I dunno. I didn't get a sense of contempt.

Robusto

Indifference?

At the very least it would be an interest so mild as to border on contempt.

RegDwighт

Lack of interest is stronger than contempt. Contempt acknowledges existence.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

4:18 PM

I took it as a sense of futility, ... or ... something. like, you do what you have to do. If the levee breaks, move on.

futility is the wrong word.

Robusto

I was using it to further a partisan agenda.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I'd rather a parmesan agenda. with spaghetti and meatballs. gods i'm hungry.

Robusto

2

Q: Using un- with words

Is it possible to use "un-" with new words such as "sit", "sleep", "sad"? I'm currently met many words (in programming) which used with "un-" in the meaning of undoing something. For example, is it possible to use "make me "unsleep" (btw, Chrome spell-check underlying it) as the synonym for "wake...

@RegDwighт: Seriously? You edited that mess?

Matt Эллен

monhawk says he did it

Robusto

You are the un-Perry White.

english.stackexchange.com/posts/89701/revisions

Matt Эллен

4:20 PM

oh, right, the tags

RegDwighт

@Robusto no.

I retagged it.

The OP was the one to edit.

I sure as hell wouldn't have produced "I'm currently met many".

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

not even if you were currently met many?

Robusto

I rest my case.

RegDwighт

1 min ago, by RegDwighт

I retagged it.

Robusto

It doesn't say you retagged it. It says you edited it. QED.

RegDwighт

4:21 PM

I rest mine.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

The "edited" thing should show all the users who've edited it.

or at least, the top 3-5

Robusto

Put in a bug report to have them change the text to say "retagged" next time, in all cases where the user is @RegDwighт.

RegDwighт

Anyway. I only took flak for closing it. So I guess it's only fair if I also take credit for the OP editing it because of my closing it.

Robusto

The system is making a fool of you. It is mocking you to your face.

RegDwighт

I prefer to be mocked to my butt.

Robusto

4:23 PM

No fear.

No, rear.

Nor ear.

Norad

Nice litotes.

Apr 22 '11 at 13:22, by Robusto

Litotes anagrams to "toilets" btw.

So ... nice toilets.

RegDwighт

4:26 PM

Still a compliment.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

►

RegDwighт

Yeah I saw the related links, too.

Something about that guitarrist woman... she holds it like she doesn't know what she's doing.

JSBձոգչ

@RegDwighт sexist

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

The lead singer totally owns that harmonica though.

RegDwighт

@JSBձոգչ reality has a sexist bias.

Robusto

4:30 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Anybody can own a harmonica. You just go to the store and buy one. Let's see her match Robert Plant for manic over-the-top ego projection.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Robusto I'm not sure that's possible.

RegDwighт

There are things women just shouldn't play. Like soccer. Or electric guitars.

0

Q: Possessive Form of a Proper Noun Ending in a Plural Noun Ending in "s"?

I don't think this has yet been covered in any of the other questions on similar topics. There was one other very similar question, however, it was not specifically talking about the case where the proper noun ends in a plural noun. Feel free to vote to close if I am wrong. What is the correct...

possessive apostrophe names

@tchrist is gonna love this.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

my high-school home-room teacher used to say "Girls don't play soccer. They play "kicking and screaming.""

Robusto

@RegDwighт Don't make me bring out the Tosh.0 video again.

JSBձոգչ

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 lol

Robusto

4:32 PM

But they can play mind-games at a level you guys can't even fathom.

JSBձոգչ

appearances aside, this zepparella completely rocks

Robusto

Mahlzeit.

RegDwighт

@Robusto doesn't matter. It always ends up with them pretending not to talk to us anymore, and us pretending that that's somehow a punishment.

Commute.

Rachel

5:00 PM

Is there a better way to phrase "This is a collaboratively edited question and answer site for professional programmers interested in conceptual questions about software development" so that the "conceptual questions about software development" is first, and the "professional programmers" is second, since the site is about conceptual software development instead of professional programmers?

MετάEd

Your question reminds me of: "Wouldn't the sentence 'I want to put a hyphen between the words Fish and And and And and Chips in my Fish-And-Chips sign' have been clearer if quotation marks had been placed before Fish, and between Fish and and, and and and And, and And and and, and and and And, and And and and, and and and Chips, as well as after Chips?"

Rachel

lol you have me so confused, sorry if that was confusing

That's the tag line for Programmers.SE. The site is about conceptual questions about software development, not about programmers, so I wanted to suggest they change the tag line to make it clear upon first glance that the site is about the topic and not the type of user

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

how about: "The site is about conceptual questions about software development"?

Rachel

But I've brought this up before and got downvoted quite a bit because most users didn't think that the tag line was causing confusion

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I tried that, but they said it should include who the site is for as well

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

"The site is about conceptual questions about software development, for programmers"

Cerberus

5:07 PM

I don't think it is confusing as it is, but it is a bit...long. It's not very easy to read. So I support Mr Shiny's suggestion.

Or how about "...intended for programmers"?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I'm not sure what they mean by "conceptual questions"

Rachel

@Cerberus You said you don't think its confusing. If that was the first thing you read on a site called Programmers, do you think you would mistakenly assume the site was about Programmers?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Rachel Maybe the site name is simply wrong? It should be "Programming"

Cerberus

@Rachel Hmm not really, because I can't imagine what a site about programmers would be like?

Rachel

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 The site is for whiteboard type design questions when programming applications, and not actual code questions or questions about programmers themselves

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 The proposal to change the site name got declined

Cerberus

5:10 PM

And the description says for programmers, not about.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Rachel Does the tag-line need to say who it's for?

I mean, as a "Tag line" it sounds off. more like a contract preamble.

Rachel

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes, it should say who the site is for

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

like it has to cover every possible aspect of everything.

It doesn't read like something humans are meant to read. More like SEO text.

Rachel

It's basically a short concise description of what the site is, what's on topic, and who the site is for (I know it's not very concise)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

"The site for programmers about programming".

KitFox

5:13 PM

@RegDwighт Geezis, you aren't kidding. She plays with about as much feeling as a penguin on novocaine with an ice pop.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Except, it's not really about programming either, in a sense. It's about software design and engineering and team management.

Rachel

Yep... I kind of like the "intended for" phrase though so think I might try and use that

Cerberus

Good luck in your struggle!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

David Wallace

This is a collaboratively edited question and answer site for conceptual questions about software development. It is intended for use by professional programmers.

And good morning everyone.

tries to imagine a penguin on novocaine with an ice pop

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

5:16 PM

@KitFox that penguin takes exception to your characterizations

Rachel

@DavidWallace @Cerberus Thanks :)

KitFox

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 That penguin can...

David Wallace

@Rachel Sorry if I'm repeating what others have said already. You could drop "use by" from what I said.

But I must confess, I've always been confused by programmers.SE.

It seems to have a very narrow definition of what's acceptable; and a definition that's far from clear. And yes, I have read its FAQ.

KitFox

What about "This is a collaboratively edited question and answer site for conceptual questions about software development by professional programmers."

David Wallace

@KitFox No, that's ambiguous.

Is it "about software development by professional programmers", or is it "for conceptual questions by professional programmers", or is it "collaboratively edited by professional programmers"?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

5:19 PM

The part I hate is the "a collaboratively edited question and answer site" bit. holy verbiage batman!

David Wallace

Maybe just "a collaborative Q&A site".

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I would put that in a second sentence.

Rachel

lol I think the "This is a collaboratively edited question and answer site" part is part of a template. The "for" might be part of the template too.

David Wallace

So maybe the template needs work. All the SE sites are "collaborative Q&A sites", right? Or are there some that aren't?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Rachel where does it appear?

user19161

5:20 PM

Does anyone here know if 'constant' can mean 'circle' or 'sphere'?

David Wallace

Context, Jasper?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@DavidWallace well, area 51 isn't. And EL&U is a collaborative Question-and-vote-to-close site.

David Wallace

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Umm, programmers even more so.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JasperLoy I'd say no.

Rachel

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 As far as I know, in the site description, search engine description, and to users not logged in along the side

David Wallace

5:22 PM

@JasperLoy I can't think of a context where it could mean that.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Rachel Do the other sites all try to cover as much ground in their welcome statement? English.se, for example, does not.

They all just say who it's for.

Cerberus

> This is a website about questions on [software development / replace with whatever is more appropriate], intended for professional programmers. Questions are asked, answered, and edited by your peers.

David Wallace

Oh, I think programmers needs to, because its definition of acceptability is so narrow.

@Cerberus The word "conceptual" has to be in there.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@DavidWallace so is ours, but we say nothing about it.

David Wallace

Otherwise you get questions that belong on SO or CR.

Maybe the tag-line should contain a link to the FAQ.

Cerberus

5:25 PM

Replace that with whatever you think is most appropriate.

Rachel

I think it's because the site is named after an audience (Programmers), and there are many SE sites about Programmers, so they try to be very specific with it

David Wallace

Anyway, it's not a "website about questions", it's a "website with questions", or a "website for questions".

user19161

Ah, another Rachel? So many on SE.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

It appears that "This is a collaboratively edited question and answer site for X. It's 100% free, no registration required." is the template.

Rachel

@JasperLoy ?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

5:26 PM

the X can be anything.

on "skeptics" it says "scientific skepticism". On SO it says "professional and enthusiast programmers"

user19161

@Rachel Well, I just happened to have chatted with you and another Rachel on SE. So two means many.

David Wallace

@JasperLoy Did you notice how that other Rachel that you were flirting with that time never came back?

Cerberus

@DavidWallace "With" sounds a bit...like those questions happen to be there. For could work?

user19161

@DavidWallace Erm, OK...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JasperLoy Hey, my two year old used to speak that way! Now he can count to five though, so his definition of "many" starts at 6.

user19161

5:27 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I am young at heart, and so are you. QED.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

... site for answers to questions about software design concepts.

KitFox

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 My 4-year-old uses "hundred" to express lots.

David Wallace

No, site for conceptual questions about software development, within the scope of the FAQ.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@DavidWallace it's a site for questions? or a site for answers

David Wallace

It's a site for questions.

You post questions, and if you're lucky, they get answered.

Cerberus

5:29 PM

@DavidWallace This sounds OK, except the bit about the FAQ. That sounds overly bureaucratic.

David Wallace

You don't just post answers, unless you're me.

Cerberus

Except...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@DavidWallace Surely lots of people just post answers, or just post questions.

David Wallace

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I'm not sure. There must be some statistics on that somewhere.

Cerberus

I have 4 questions on ELU, of which more than one a serious question!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

5:30 PM

@DavidWallace Well, on EL&U it's like that. most people don't post both Qs and As.

user19161

@DavidWallace Flirting is when you have no serious intentions; perhaps I do.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus percentage-wise, what does that come out to?

@JasperLoy what. are. you. talking about.

Rachel

@DavidWallace Oh that was me, I just don't have much of an interest in English :)

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 What:what?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Rachel interesting. And yet here you are, like a prodigal daughter, come back to us in your hour of need ;)

@Cerberus Q:A

David Wallace

5:32 PM

@Rachel No, Jasper was flirting with another Rachel.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

or Q:posts

user19161

@DavidWallace How nice of you to notice!

David Wallace

Unless you have two logins, both called Rachel. Which would seem odd.

Rachel

Well yeah, I know I can come here for advice on how to phrase english sentences :)

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 That would be about 10,000 %.

Rachel

5:32 PM

@DavidWallace Oh it might have been someone else then. I came here once and I think Jasper was talking to me a bit, but that was a while ago

I think I clicked the chat link by mistake

Cerberus

A:Q would therefore be about 1 %.

David Wallace

Hmm, a mistake you won't be repeating, no doubt!

user19161

@Rachel He's referring to another one. And I recall what I told you then: sometimes the wrong turns become the right ones.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I don't understand your notation then.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Oh, oops!

David Wallace

5:33 PM

@Cerberus I have 22 sites on my list that I've logged into. I have asked precisely one question.

Cerberus

The other way around.

I mislooked and miscalculated.

So 1 %.

user19161

@DavidWallace The only thing I said was that Rachel is my favourite female name, if that counts as flirting!

Cerberus

Jasper, you are incorrigible!

user19161

My favourite male name is, hmm, I am not sure yet.

David Wallace

How unflirtatious of you to mention that, while there's a Rachel here.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

5:34 PM

Anyway, rachel, I'd say that tagline thing is not misleading and not confusing unless you don't really read it properly. I'd say the template itself is flawed and also unlikely to change.

David Wallace

Jasper - ignore me completely, I am teasing you.

user19161

Hmm, I think my favourite male name might be Michael.

Rachel

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Alright, thank you. I think many people do read it incorrectly, but I wasn't sure if that was a result of the way it was phrased or the fact they just are skimming it

David Wallace

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Why would the template be unlikely to change?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@DavidWallace Because they'll just call it bikeshedding. And they won't want to change their precious SEO-bait. Which is what that is.

David Wallace

5:36 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I think you underestimate TPTB.

Cerberus

@Rachel Probably skimming. But ideally, it should be able to withstand skimming.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus It fails, because the preamble is too long and the payload is too long. The whole sentence tries to do way too much.

Cerberus

Yeah.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

"The site for software design Q&A"

or something like that.

David Wallace

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It's not about design. It's about concepts.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

5:38 PM

"conceptual questions about ..." snore

Cerberus

ZZZZZZ Huh? What? What did you say?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@DavidWallace SNORE

David Wallace

Can its name be changed? "Programmers" is just terrible.

Rachel

At the very least I think they should replace "question and answer" with Q&A

@DavidWallace No, they've already officially denied a request to change the site's name

Cerberus

@DavidWallace I agree.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

5:39 PM

28 mins ago, by Rachel

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 The proposal to change the site name got declined

Cerberus

Let's redo the entire site!

David Wallace

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Sorry. This room clearly does NOT withstand skimming.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

This room is intentionally incomprehensible.

Cerberus

I don't like it when thieves skim my bank card, and yet they do it.

What is a body to do?

David Wallace

Did they give good reasons for declining the name change?

Rachel

5:41 PM

Oh well, I've updated my question with some new phrases that convey the idea better (I hope). Thanks for your advice :)

@DavidWallace meta.programmers.stackexchange.com/a/3733/1130

Btw, you really don't want to get into a discussion with them about the site name or tag line ;)

David Wallace

Hah, when Anna says "let's talk about that", does she actually mean "I'll talk about that"?

Rachel

I think they're all a bit sick of hearing about it by now (at least from me)

David Wallace

Yes, but if they hear about it often, it's because the name DOES need changing. It is basically the worst possible name.

If the name were clearer, you wouldn't need as much detail in the tag line. So ONE problem that the name is causing is this very discussion about including everything that the tag line needs, without making it too long.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@DavidWallace I'm still not sure what the tag-line even means by "conceptual questions". what I see in the FAQ makes sense, but "conceptual"?

KitFox

I would take that as asking questions about how its done, not questions about how to do it.

Simple, eh?

David Wallace

5:50 PM

Meaning, don't ask specific programming questions. If it's "how do I do XXX in Java", it belongs on SO. But also, don't ask questions that aren't specific to programming, because these belong on Workplace.SE.

The site for "questions specific to programming, that aren't specific programming questions". That'll do it.

KitFox

Yeah, that.

Rachel

@DavidWallace lol I like this one :)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

"Software development, not coding", then.

David Wallace

But it's true, right? There is SUCH a narrow line of acceptability there. And Yannis works incredibly hard to keep people on that line (and I'm sure that the other mods do too); but the result is a lot of people who get discouraged by having their questions quickly closed.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

"conceptual" just doesn't seem like the right word. Software engineering is a concrete activity; QA is a concrete activity; etc.

KitFox

5:52 PM

See? A name change would make a big difference.

David Wallace

@KitFox So do what I just did, and put a comment to that effect on Rachel's question on the meta site.

If Anna sees lots of support for the idea of changing the name, it may soften her heart.

-3

Q: Change the name of Programmers to something that more accurately reflects the site scope?

This is a follow-up to the discussion on renaming the site to match its FAQ, or changing the FAQ to match the site name. That discussion is one of the highest voted questions on here, so this feature-request is to try and get a definitive answer from Stack Exchange about the possibility of gett...

feature-request status-declined site-attributes

Rachel

@DavidWallace I seriously think it will make no difference. I have another question asking to change the site name or its scope so they match, and its one of the top voted questions on meta there

35

Q: Renaming the site to match its FAQ or changing the FAQ to match the site name?

This site is called programmers.stackexchange, while the FAQ states that this site is about "conceptual questions about software development". Since a large number of people never read the FAQ, or don't read it before posting, this means we have a community of people that think the site is about...

discussion site-attributes

But thank you for your support :)

David Wallace

Right, maybe I'm not yet sufficiently jaded or cynical.

@Rachel Wow, I can't believe I didn't see this question earlier. It reflects exactly how I feel about that site.

Rachel

@DavidWallace Are you now or have you previously been an active user at Programmers?

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…