English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

12:19 AM

Why don’t people bother to consult dictionaries?

0

Q: What does the usage of "under" in this context mean?

What does under mean here, how do you define it? From a biography: Shum graduated from Arroyo Grande High School in 2000. He started dancing with his high school dance company team and continued his career in San Francisco under several different studios.

meaning-in-context

I always thought dictionaries were for looking up words’ definitions. Apparently not.

Robusto

12:34 AM

They also are good for pressing plants and flowers that you find.

22

A: When is it appropriate to use 'that' as opposed to 'which'?

Well, the difference is slight but real. According to the New Oxford American Dictionary: In U.S. English, it is usually recommended that which be employed only for nonrestrictive (or nonessential) clauses: : the horse, which is in the paddock, is six years old (the : which clause contains a ...

A down vote after all this time? Sheeee-it.

tchrist

I thought you said somebody out there loved you?

Somebody found the most exotic leaves in my OED the other day.

Oh. It’s higher. I was wondering whether it was an 11 somebody thought needed to be an 10 in her fearful symmetry.

It is usually recommended that which we shall not reveal.

tchrist

1:02 AM

E incluso en castellano:

►

tchrist

4:07 AM

OFFS Fumble’s gilded the SWR lily!

@Mitch Dear Mitch, I was super-not-addressing you with that! It was to the poster. Love, Tom.

Mahnax

@tchrist Eh?

tchrist

11:40 AM

@Mahnax He got a gold badge for the silly SWR questions.

tchrist

12:19 PM

wholve: A short arched or covered drain under a path.

Robusto

I use the more familiar culvert.

But nice to know it now has a cousin.

tchrist

gantry: A structure crossing several railway-tracks to accommodate signals.

But that one, I think, is better known.

We can now speak of the wholve–wolve merger.

Robusto

12:34 PM

Happy days.

tchrist

Then there’s piste.

rutter: A kind of plough used by lumberjacks for making tracks for sleighs.

tulip: An explosive charge used to destroy a length of railway track.

And finally, I’m done:

0

A: What is the word for a path that is made naturally by the action of people walking?

Besides path, pathlet, pathway, and the many things related to ways, tracks, and trails by having those words in their names (such as runway, highway, race track), we still have many possibilities: (All cited definitions from the OED.) ambage: Circuits, windings, circuitous paths. bridle-path...

@Robusto I think Norton’s suckered you in.

Ubi sunt custodes regni?

Some of these are rather quaint.

Do gay penguins give gifts of rocks to their mates?

Why does the barfomatic question get supercollided, but the pathway one does not?

Knock knock?

@Cerberus I found wilsome and thought of your Dutch wild sense.

> ONor. villusamr erroneous, false (Sw. villsam perplexing, embarrassing, in MSw. also, gone astray, Da. vildsom perplexed, intricate), f. villr wild, will a. + -samr -some. Sometimes assimilated in spelling to wild.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

1:12 PM

@tchrist who's there?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

1:25 PM

This is an amusing article, which shows how a media device was rooted using only the remote control it shipped with: devttys0.com/2012/10/jailbreaking-the-neotv

JSBձոգչ

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 that was awesome

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

got to run, meeting time

Mitch

@tchrist !! I am so sensitive. I can give snark but can't take it, even if it's not there!.

@tchrist I think you missed one.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I was just rooted by clicking on that link.

Robusto

1:48 PM

@tchrist Ubi est meam.

@tchrist What, you mean on the surrounded question?

Maybe that explains the pointless down votes.

Mitch

@tchrist: I'm curious about this: "As long as you steer clear of words that come from Welsh and Scots, and keep them short," The only words for Welsh or Scots I can think of are single syllable and, even if rare, are not prestige or intellectual words. What words were you thinking of?

@tchrist: I think you need more pings.

tchrist

@Mitch Am in speakerphone meeting wth exKGB agent.

Robusto

@Mitch: I don't think @tchrist needs more @tchrist pings.

tchrist

@Mitch Have volume turned off.

@Robusto Have forgotted to use subjects and articles.

Mitch

Re: dumbing down : "First of all, when I say "proved", what I will mean is "proved with the aid of the whole of math". Now then: two plus two is four, as you well know...."

Robusto

1:53 PM

@tchrist No problem.

Mitch

The 'proof' works only if you already know what's going on.

Robusto

Stupid proof.

Mitch

Really, you should just trust it.

JSBձոգչ

>

> Once upon a time there was a pleasant little celebration called Halloween, which occurred on the evening of October 31. Children would dress in improvised costumes as ghosts or witches and parade from door to door, receiving apples or homemade cookies from the delighted neighbors, and returning home to popcorn and hot chocolate with the family.

> But somehow, through the unspeakable influence of the almighty dollar, the demons of capitalism turned the homey one-night celebration into a commercial extravaganza occupying two months of the calendar and second only to Christmas in the filthy lucre it brings into the pockets of the robber barons. Now Halloween costumes are sold in vast emporia that spring up all over the suburbs like poisonous mushrooms, and children are warned by television and newspapers never to accept fruit or homemade treats, the warnings reinforced by horror stories straight out of the Brothers Grimm involving ch…

firstthings.com/blogs/drboli/2012/10/31/…

Mitch

2:08 PM

It's the only time of year I eat that stuff. Think of it like the military, it's a great employer. Eventually will employ great numbers of health care workers (as a result of the candy, not the military)

Noah

2:18 PM

hi

Proof and stupid are two words

AFAIK

@Mitch I hope you are not in NY, NJ?

If anyone is, gotta know how to swim

@JasperLoy

SOUP or SOAP, LOL

user19161

@Noah Hey Noah! Are you affected by the flood? You have an ark!

user19161

Everyone in New York get into Noah's ark!

Noah

@JasperLoy Well, didnt know that there would be flood coming. My ark is totaled

And @JasperLoy guys gotta swim this time

user19161

@Noah What if I can fly?

Noah

I wont let u

Will tie you to a building

user19161

2:26 PM

@Noah HAHAHA, you go make your chicken soup.

Noah

@JasperLoy No, soap is not good for health

You cannot eat poisonous things

well, I can't. Dont know about you

user19161

@Noah We can all soap and then bathe in the flood and then enter your ark.

Noah

@JasperLoy Yeah, taking a bath would be necessary. I dont want smelly guys to pop into the ark; though ladies are welcome

The green Matt is hungry everyday, can you belive that?

user19161

@Noah How do you know he is hungry?

Noah

2 waiting for lunch is the worst. it's what I do every moment after breakfast - 23h ago by Matt Эллен ▼

> 2 waiting for lunch is the worst. it's what I do every moment after breakfast - 23h ago by Matt Эллен ▼

tchrist

2:36 PM

@Noah The cure for that is simple enough: just don't eat breakfast. Then you'll be waiting for breakfast all day, not for dinner.

Noah

@tchrist Or go to MacDonalds and buy a couple hundred MacNuggets

tchrist

@Mitch That was intentional. It gives me to room to do an edit-bump later. Anyway, the interesting ones are those for which /track|path|way/ is false.

Noah

So everytime you get hungry, you will have something to chew on.

tchrist

ruminates

@Noah No soap is also not good for health.

Noah

ruminating

@tchrist SO we have to go with Old Spice?

tchrist

2:41 PM

Well, the Oldest Spice does have something to be said for it.

Noah

@tchrist dont tell me you are still using it.

tchrist

Do you know what the World's Oldest Spice is?

Noah

I am afraid, I dont.

tchrist

Heh.

Saffron has been being used for at least 5,000 years.

Chiles ("chilli pepper", Capsicum) have been being used for at least 6,000 years.

And salt does not a spice make.

The question is whether saffron or chiles meet the technical definition of 'spice'.

The question is whether chiles or saffron meets the technical definition of 'spice'.

The question is whether saffron and chiles meet the technical definition of 'spice'.

It turns out that the technical definitions of what counts as a spice versus what counts as an herb have drifted or shifted a bit over time.

The traditional definition is that an herb derives from the leaves or stems of a(n) herbaceous plant, whereas a spice derives from other parts like seeds or bark. (Bark by definition does not occur on an herb, but rather on a shrub or tree.)

Mahnax

@tchrist Oh, I see.

tchrist

2:51 PM

A self-interested body, the American Spice Trade Association, chooses for their purposes to redefine to mean "any dried plant product used primarily for seasoning purposes". This is not the traditional sense, but broader.

OED spice: One or other of various strongly flavoured or aromatic substances of vegetable origin, obtained from tropical plants, commonly used as condiments or employment for other purposes on account of their fragrance and preservative qualities.

OED herb sense 2: spec. Applied to plants of which the leaves, or stem and leaves, are used for food or medicine, or in some way for their scent or flavour.

So an herb comes from the leaves, stems, and leaves. A spice is either everything that is not an herb, or else it an herb is a subclass of the more general spice.

Different people nuance these differently.

Under this definition, neither saffron nor chiles are an herb proper. Saffron comes from the stigmata of a particular non-fertile hexaploid mutation that occurred exactly once in all history, and every single saffron-bearing crocus is a perfect clone of that initial mutation.

Chiles are either just the seeds, or from the entire pod.

Robusto

3:08 PM

Question for ELL: Can use "spice" and "spike" in meaning the same?

Zairja

3:19 PM

@Robusto The punch wasn't spiked, just spiced up a bit.

Is pond dipping a thing in North America or are there not enough ponds?

JSBձոգչ

@tchrist really? i had no idea

@Zairja the idea of going to a pond and looking at bugs is not especially novel. but i've never heard a specific name given to that activity.

tchrist

@JSBձոգչ Of what, that saffron is more often accounted a spice than an herb, or the uniquity of its genetic expression?

Zairja

@JSBձոգչ It seems to be a thing. Is there some way to see how Google results would change over time, or at least the number of hits if the search were made in different years/months?

tchrist

@Zairja Not enough ponds? Surely you jest. Hie thyself to New Scandinavia up round Gitche Goome, and you shall find myriad upon myriad of puddling ponds.

Hereabouts they are more apt to be tarns, if at altitude.

@JSBձոգչ Oops, triploid not hexaploid.

History of saffron

|0= |1= |2= }} Human cultivation and use of saffron spans more than 3,500 years and spans cultures, continents, and civilizations. Saffron, a spice derived from the dried stigmas of the saffron crocus (Crocus sativus), has through history remained among the world's most costly substances. With its bitter taste, hay-like fragrance, and slight metallic notes, the apocarotenoid-rich saffron has been used as a seasoning, fragrance, dye, and medicine. Saffron is a genetically monomorphic clone native to Southwest Asia; it was first cultivated in Greece. The wild precursor of domesticated saff...

> Saffron is a genetically monomorphic clone native to Southwest Asia; it was first cultivated in Greece.

The first clause is likely true; the second, less clearly so.

It may have first been cultivated in Asia Minor.

Opinions vary, as does evidence.

Robusto

@Zairja I think you missed the point.

tchrist

3:33 PM

> The saffron crocus is now a triploid that is "self-incompatible" and male sterile; it undergoes aberrant meiosis and is hence incapable of independent sexual reproduction—all propagation is by vegetative multiplication via manual "divide-and-set" of a starter clone or by interspecific hybridisation.

Big words for simple thing.

Zairja

@Robusto Sorry, I don't pay much attention.

tchrist

Not only do many, many languages have words for saffron/crocus, virtually all of them are some variant of saffron/crocus, which strongly suggests a point-origin for the thing itself.

Saffron is a monocot from the Iridiceae, meaning gladden, not rainbow nor pupillary sphincter.

Flag, if you would.

Hm, may I retract that? :)

iris = gladden = flag

user19161

Oh, Happy November everyone. I say this each month...

tchrist

@JasperLoy How does it feel to be right only one month in twelve?

user19161

@tchrist After I typed that, I had the feeling someone was going to say something like that.

Mitch

3:42 PM

@tchrist as you wish. flagged

tchrist

Alas and alack: a lad!

Mitch

wait, isn't the word for the thingy around your pupil the same as the flower?

user19161

Today I also learnt how someone can flag something while not in the room...

Mitch

@JasperLoy how?

tchrist

@JasperLoy Aye.

But chattaflagging is not anonymous.

Mitch

3:43 PM

oh. you can do all sorts of things while not in the room.

user19161

@Mitch You must log into chat to flag, but you don't need to be in the room, you can be reading the transcript.

Mitch

but that's not logged into chat, is it?

'in the room' = 'logged in to chat', right?

user19161

By log in to chat, I mean well, the usual way I log in to chat each time.

user19161

Might be different for you guys.

tchrist

must login to chat != must log into chat

user19161

3:44 PM

I go to /chat-stackexchange-login after logging in to the site.

Mitch

so logged in to chat in general but in another room?

user19161

Yes, or not in any room at all if you use my method.

Mitch

@tchrist I can't read spaces!

user19161

This explains all the mysterious flags I have been seeing all these 9000 years.

Robusto

ELL: "Is alas same as a lass? If not why are pronounce same?"

Mitch

3:46 PM

@JasperLoy oh. One way to read chat transcript without being 'in' is to, how to explain, you go to a chat link, that's how I do it.

user19161

@Robusto I think you should help ELL write the first 100 questions, thanks in advance.

Robusto

I am help.

Mitch

You are!

user19161

@Mitch yes, go to chat.se.com/t/xxx

tchrist

@JasperLoy @Robusto speak binary, ye wite.

Mitch

3:47 PM

@JasperLoy visited

user19161

I am using a lot of shorthand today.

amused

1001101

u cn b shrtr

no ur

user19161

3:48 PM

i c b s

Robusto

ICBM

I win.

Mitch

@JasperLoy I think you have to try to make sense though.

user19161

@Robusto Yes, you have won the losers game.

Robusto

@JasperLoy I guess that makes you one of the losers.

user19161

Now I am really learning to talk like a good old Robusto!

Mitch

3:49 PM

Which is 'worse' flagging as spam/offensive (lie 'pupillary sphincter') or flag for moderator?

@JasperLoy You are!

Robusto

@JasperLoy Wrong on at least three counts.

user19161

@Mitch I also find that I have been less inclined to flag things after chatting in this room where many things are flaggable.

Noah

@Mitch what's sense?

You have to define it first.

user19161

So I think I should try to restrain myself a bit more in my speech in chat.

Mitch

remembers that lunch is a thing

Cerberus

3:51 PM

@tchrist Hmm what sense exactly?

Hello.

user19161

Many external mods might not be comfortable with the things we say here.

Mitch

@Noah crazy talk. say first. define later. Let OED sort it out.

tchrist

@Cerberus One's wilsome ways off in wilderland, replete with game. A game trail and a wilsome way would be the same.

Mitch

@JasperLoy I am uncomfortable with the things we say here. But that's probably because my shoelaces are too tight.

forgets something about lunch

user19161

@Mitch I think TPTB would not like many of the things we say here...

tchrist

3:54 PM

@JasperLoy Everything not deleted is flaggable. But you shall in so doing call blue spirits from the vasty deep, ones that this time shall surely come at your call.

user19161

Seeing the conflicts on SE has also helped me learn even more about human conflict.

tchrist

@Mitch You should walk unshod then, O David.

user19161

I learn to see things from others' perspectives even more.

Noah

@Mitch Heh.

Robusto

@JasperLoy Even more than what?

Mitch

3:56 PM

@JasperLoy you didn't realize before that people are jerks?

tchrist

@JasperLoy Those are nothing more than a trompe l’œil, made manifold repeated.

Mitch

@tchrist lunch first. shoes off afterwards. no sorting out necessary.

user19161

I think I am not exposed to the online aspects.

Robusto

You are over-exposed.

Mitch

@tchrist "your repeated manifold is getting in my trompe l'oeil. " Escher at the end of his landscape phase

Noah

3:59 PM

@Robusto Under-exposed

Robusto

@Mitch But that is just an illusion.

user19161

@Noah I wonder why there is underwear but not overwear.

tchrist

@Robusto Nice answer. :)

Noah

@JasperLoy If you are in NY, you will need the former, I guess.

tchrist

user19161

4:01 PM

@Noah Well it's so cold that your thing will stand if you don't wear any?

Robusto

@tchrist Was that you?

And do you mean "nice nice" or "badge nice"?

tchrist

@Robusto It wasn’t, which is why I posted the clipping.

I meant badge nice.

Cerberus

@tchrist Right. A very direct connection.

Noah

@JasperLoy No, your thing will shrivel up.

user19161

@Noah HAHAHAHAHAHA

tchrist

4:05 PM

Abwehr, activewear, adware, anywhere, aware, barware, beware, bodywear, brushware, censorware, codware, courseware, Delaware,
earthenware, earthware, elsewhere, everywhere, firmware, forswear, groupware, hardware, headwear, Heimwehr, henware,
ironware, knitwear, landwehr, liveware, malware, manswear, microwear, middleware, mindware, mostwhere, mugware, nielloware,
nightwear, nowhere, nurseryware, onewhere, otherwhere, outerwear, outswear, outwear, ovenware, overwear, oware, pearlware,
peopleware, pewterware, plasticware, podware, rainwear, reswear, rubberware, rubberwear, sadware, shapewear…

Robusto

@tchrist I also got an up vote on a question from my very first day here, which put it one vote shy of badge nice.

Noah

@tchrist Yeah, that reminds of an ad for some sort of pillows. Went to wallgreens to get one and apparently it wasnt free. I was like, hell, they say that you get one free if you buy one. And the guy was like we dont do that here at Wallgreens.

Mitch

tchrist

@Robusto Subtle one, that.

Sep 19 at 21:56, by tchrist

Ed and Rob probably remember Grand Illusion.

Noah

@Cerberus Is there any other kind of connection?

Robusto

4:07 PM

@tchrist Mais certainment.

tchrist

@Noah Yes of course.

@Robusto I see you been hangin’ with the vaches espagnoles again.

Robusto

@tchrist Absolutement. La vache qui rit.

tchrist

et lit.

Cerberus

@Noah Hi. There are less direct connections...

tchrist

et qui quiquiriquit.

Robusto

4:08 PM

@Mitch Styx? Styx? They're like Rush Lite.

Mitch

@Robusto le coq qui rit "ki ki ri ki"

Noah

@Cerberus Hi. I see.

Mitch

@Robusto No questioning taste in chat, cuz Styx sux.

tchrist

@Robusto Funny you should say that: Tommy Shaw opened for Rush when I saw them once.

Robusto

►

They also dance.

@tchrist QED

Noah

4:10 PM

@Mitch The lady is beautiful. Wish I could get to her...

Mitch

@Robusto ha! I thought that was from "Wicked"

tchrist

@Cerberus Damn it, I want to -que a verb. What is wrong with me?

Robusto

@Mitch Elfaba would protest.

Mitch

@Noah you have to go through the reflection in the puddle to the mirror.

Robusto

But the mirror is unique in that it is opaque.

Noah

4:11 PM

@tchrist My professor says I have to use perform instead of take in the following: > I took a survey.

Robusto

@Noah Tell him to go perform a shit.

Mitch

Hell is trying to squint through to your reflection in other people's eyes. The eye strain is enormous.

Robusto

Also ask him if he insists that you perform notes in his class rather than take them. If the former, bring a piano.

In any case, how do you "perform" a survey? Through interpretive dance?

Noah

@Robusto Her. lol. The funny thing is that she took off a point for this.

Robusto

What educational level are we talking here?

Noah

4:16 PM

@Robusto That's a good point.

@Robusto High School

Cerberus

@Robusto Yes!

@tchrist Don't resist. Just do it.

@Noah Next time, choose a third option to confuse here, like fill in.

Noah

@Cerberus Heh.

Robusto

@Noah Yeah. It figures. Tell her to ask that as a question on ELU and I will personally humiliate her in print and leave her ego, or what's left of it, in a little puddle by the door.

Cerberus

Aww.

►

@MattЭллен David is brilliant again!

Noah

@Robusto Heh. Interesting, thanks!

Cerberus

4:23 PM

I do what he does, more or less, at least at the station.

But it is rather to vent off steam than to give people a certain impression.

And I do feel slightly uncomfortable just turning around immediately when I need to go back to get something I forgot.

I may have done the tapping, but only rarely.

tchrist

Done.

Cerberus

Good.

MετάEd

4:48 PM

Perl promises, that if we ever add regular expression pattern metacharacters to the dozen already defined (\ | ( ) [ { ^ $ * + ? . ), that we will only use ones that have the Pattern_Syntax property. Perl also promises, that if we ever add characters that are considered to be white space in regular expressions (currently mostly affected by /x), they will all have the Pattern_White_Space property.

Perldoc needs an editor.

Noah

@MετάEd What does perl mean?

MετάEd

Perl

Perl is a high-level, general-purpose, interpreted, dynamic programming language. Though Perl is not officially an acronym, there are various backronyms in usage, such as: Practical Extraction and Reporting Language. Perl was originally developed by Larry Wall in 1987 as a general-purpose Unix scripting language to make report processing easier. Since then, it has undergone many changes and revisions. The latest major stable revision is 5.16, released in May 2012. Perl 6 is a complete redesign of the language, announced in 2000 and still under active development . Perl borrows featur...

This makes no sense.

`Unmatched ( in regex; marked by <-- HERE in m/\Qmetaed /USR/SBIN/CRON[\E\d+\Q]: (root) CMD ( <-- HERE [ -x /usr/lib/php5/maxlifetime ]
/ at ./superlog line 90, <> line 1.`

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…