English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Mitch

14:00

etymology helps make connections. but usage over and over in context is what it takes.

Frank Science

The etymology of phenomenon is useless.

RegDwight АΑA

Wait, there's a language that hasn't borrowed phenomenon?

Mitch

(and you need more repetition for foreign words because...well..they're foreign)

Frank Science

It's old Greek.

Mitch

words like phenomenon are hard because they are hopelessly vague.

tchrist

14:01

@FrankScience Mmm, I'm not sure that's right, or at least, useful. Ambassador probably comes from L. ambactiāre to go on a mission, and I don’t know that you need to delve more deeply then that.

Mitch

'something that happens'

RegDwight АΑA

@FrankScience It's Russian, German, French, Swedish, Spanish, Serbo-Croatian...

And English.

Frank Science

@tchrist etymonline.com/index.php?term=ambassador&allowed_in_frame=0

@RegDwightАΑA I meant the origin was old Greek.

tchrist

@FrankScience a. Fr. ambassade, 15th c. ambaxade, ad. OSp. ambaxada (mod. em-), cogn. w. Pr. ambaissada, Ital. ambasciata, OFr. ambassée, (superseded by this form in -ade: see ambassy):-L. *ambactiāta (found in med.L. as ambaxiāta, -asciāta, -assiāta, -asiāta), ppl. derivative of *ambactiāre to go on a mission, f. ambactia, ambaxia (in Salic and Burgundian Laws) ‘charge, office, employment,’ n. of office f. ambactus a servant (? vassal, retainer).

@FrankScience The OFr. form ambassée was also adopted in Eng. as ambassy, embassy; as was also the med.L. as ambassiate, etc., the forms of which appear to have been quite mixed up with those of the present word, leading to the pronunciation in 5-6 amˈba.ssiade, amˈba.ssade, and the spellings in -ad, -ed, -et. But Shakspere and subseq. writers have ambaˈssa.de or ˈa.mbassade.

RegDwight АΑA

@FrankScience I know. But I was expanding on that.

tchrist

14:04

@FrankScience The origin and meaning of ambactus have given rise to much discussion. According to Festus ‘Ambactus apud Ennium lingua Gallica servus appellatur’; and Caesar (B.G. vi. 15) applies it to the vassals or retainers of a Gallic chief. Hence Zeuss and Glück identify it with Welsh amaeth, ammaeth, (for *ambaeth) ‘husbandman, tiller of the ground,’ perh. orig. ‘tenant, retainer,’ or even ‘goer about, footman.’ Grimm finds ....

I really don't think you need to go that far.

Frank Science

From OED?

tchrist

@FrankScience Yup.

And it goes on substantially from there, even.

It never does any of the ambi- stuff you mention. To me, ambi- < G. amphi-.

Frank Science

PIE *ambhi-

RegDwight АΑA

0

Q: he, she, it and plural nouns

What is right: he reads books or he read books I think I've read somewhere that if he, she, it applies to plural nouns - then first form of the verb should be used instead of verb ending at s (the formula there said V1 instead of Vs). Is that right?

WTH

tchrist

Or ambit, to go round.

You're quite ambitious.

Mitch

14:10

@RegDwightАΑA yes, close, redirect to the nonexistent ELL

tchrist

Close close close kill EXTERMINATE

Mitch

@FrankScience so now do you know what ambassador means? One down, a few more to go.

Frank Science

ambition from ambitio from ambire from ambi- and ire.

Some small words are still hard to memorize accurately.

For example, banner

barrel

barrier

attorney

tchrist

@FrankScience You simply have to get more experience reading and writing these. There is no such thing as a free hot lunch.

Frank Science

@tchrist reading and writing what?

tchrist

14:17

@FrankScience English prose which uses these various words that find no purchase in your marmoreal memory vaults’ nooks and crannies.

Gigili

Is that ρ, ρ, ρ your boat! a joke? I don't get it.

tchrist

Is that \N{GREEK SMALL LETTER RHO}, \N{GREEK SMALL LETTER RHO}, \N{GREEK SMALL LETTER RHO} your boat! a joke? I don't get it.

RegDwight АΑA

Greek alphabet

The Greek alphabet is the script that has been used to write the Greek language since the 8th century BC. It was derived from the earlier Phoenician alphabet, and was in turn the ancestor of numerous other European and Middle Eastern scripts, including Cyrillic and Latin. While its main use has always been to write the Greek language, both in its ancient and its modern forms, its letters are today also used widely as technical symbols and labels in many domains of mathematics, science and other fields. In its classical and modern form the alphabet has 24 letters, ordered from alpha to o...

It's one pun in a series of many. Click the "1d ago" link.

@tchrist whachatryin their?

Not works hear.

tchrist

14:35

@RegDwightАΑA Uniquoted text, or marmoreal memory vaults?

RegDwight АΑA

Wut?

tchrist

You asked what I was about, and I asked when.

RegDwight АΑA

Yeah but I have no idea who marmoreal memory vaults is.

Anyhoo I was asking about those Unicode thingamajigs.

tchrist

They're a what.

Oh.

Which ones? The math letters to cheat on fonts?

Or the \N{...} bits?

RegDwight АΑA

You know that you can hover over my message to see which message of yours it refers to?

tchrist

14:38

I always forget when 'tis but one @ed line out of many un@ed.

RegDwight АΑA

Then don't forget to not always forget.

Anyway, I just wasn't sure if you were making another joke or doing something else or whatever, but you had to edit it so I assumed whatever you were trying didn't work so that was my way of offering help because the two minutes were about to expire.

tchrist

So, that’s running Unicode text through a filter that replaces all trans-ASCII code points with \N{...} where ... is the official name for that code point, using the \N{YOUR NAME HERE} notation from Python and Perl, and ICU regexes per UTS#18’s description of the same.

RegDwight АΑA

Ah.

I guess I would have noticed had she used a proper apostrophe.

tchrist

If she\N{RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK}d used a proper apostrophe \N{EM DASH} so to speak \N{EM DASH} yeah, you would\N{RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK}ve noticed.

Prisoners of $Bill seldom have keyboards configured for non-trivial entry of such niceties.

Which probably explains why she didn’t use them.

RegDwight АΑA

That reminds me. There should be a \N{ENGLISH LETTERS VE AUTOMATICALLY CONVERTED FROM OF YOU MORON}.

It would prove most very useful.

tchrist

14:49

"VE"?

RegDwight АΑA

Oh sorry. I should of been more explicit.

Denis

Hello there, or as Wooster says "what ho!"

RegDwight АΑA

Howdies.

Denis

@RegDwightАΑA thanks for correcting my question about "(in) here"

RegDwight АΑA

Oh?

tchrist

14:51

Delectable Unicode-related filters: uniquote for transcription to \N{...} and unifont for the 𝖋𝖚𝖓𝖓𝖞 𝖇𝖚𝖘𝖎𝖓𝖊𝖘𝖘. Many other similar toys and tools beginning uni- in those directories.

RegDwight АΑA

I already forgot.

Mitch

EC is registered for the town hall election nominee chat. I predict the chat will be extremely entertaining but not particularly productive because of his presence.

Denis

@tchrist thanks for very detailed answer, it's very appreciated!

RegDwight АΑA

@Mitch well I suppose I am staying up till four, then.

Denis

@RegDwightАΑA anyway it helped me to understand some things better

tchrist

14:52

toddles off to $job

RegDwight АΑA

@Denis you're welcome, then!

JSBձոգչ

did anybody else see this?

buzzfeed.com/ktlincoln/…

it's heartbreaking

Mitch

argh..I folowed that link...and now I'm looking up the reese witherspoon/Robert pattison etc kerfuffle.

tchrist

Or, or just install the Unicode::Tussle package from CPAN. I forgot; that gets them all, including an OED2 version of look that knows about parts of speech and does O(log N) lookups on prefix matches very very quickly, does best-guess fuzzy matches, or full regexes. I think I call it unilook. Rumour has it that includes the full OED2 word list, plus quarterly supplements since 2000.

RegDwight АΑA

I heard about that. Haven't watched yet.

tchrist

14:56

Hasta la pasta

Denis

"And Shin A Lam, now in tears, refused to live the piste (the platform that they fence on). In fencing, leaving the piste means that you have officially accepted the judges' ruling." Live - leave, haha

RegDwight АΑA

BBL

Robusto

15:25

@Denis If you don't live the piste, you are merely a poseur.

1

Q: Cheersing vs cheering

I have come across the word "cheersing", with an "s", as opposed to what I believe to be the correct form: cheering. I think it comes from a misguided verbification of the exclamation "cheers!", as in the plural of the noun "cheer". However since there is already a corresponding verb, "to cheer...

neologisms verbing

Seriously? cries

Matt Эллен

Sirius like crabs

Robusto

Sirius can go eff herseff.

Rin-tin-tin was a dog star, but Sirius is the Dog Star. @Cerberus is a former (i.e., "has-been") dog star.

Matt Эллен

Toto was a pop star

In Africa, anyway

pop

Robusto

15:45

@MattЭллен And Toto 2?

Frank Science

May I ask a question?

Don't you have a cup of coffee? -- No!

It means that they don't want a cup of coffee?

Robusto

@FrankScience You already presumed to ask one, but go ahead.

@FrankScience Usually. Wait, I thought you said want instead of have.

Q. "Don't you want a cup of coffee?"
A. "No."

That means the person who answered doesn't want a cup of coffee.

Q. "Don't you have a cup of coffee?"
A. "No."
That means the person who answered doesn't *have* a cup of coffee.

Not having a cup of coffee is not proof that a person doesn't want one.

Frank Science

@Robusto I was asking a native speaker and he said that the respons No! is ambiguous. Instead, he suggested No, I don't. or Yeah.

Robusto

I am a native speaker.

MetaEd

@Robusto Cool! I speak native too.

We should have a conversation sometime in native.

Frank Science

15:56

@Robusto They said that

Robusto

@FrankScience To "want" or to "have"?

@MetaEd Cool. Hey, 'sup, dude.

Frank Science

@Robusto You can't answer negative questions sanely in English with affirmative without context. Period.

Robusto

@FrankScience Can't I answer a negative question sanely in the affirmative? Of course I can! And in English!

KitFox

@MetaEd You edited my question!

Here:

12

Q: What does "yo-ho-ho" mean?

The pirate song Fifteen Men on a Dead Man's Chest from Treasure Island contains the expression "yo-ho-ho". "Fifteen men on the dead man's chest-- ...Yo-ho-ho, and a bottle of rum! Drink and the devil had done for the rest-- ...Yo-ho-ho, and a bottle of rum!" Does this signify laughter...

pirate-english

You might like this one.

Robusto

@KitFox It means (a/b)/(b/a) = 1.

KitFox

15:59

ABBA?

Robusto

Mar 2 '11 at 13:47, by Robusto

I will say this about ABBA, though. They are the best band out of Sweden whose name is a palindrome.

KitFox

Yarr.

Robusto

I might have to refine that to "'70s band" one of these days.

@FrankScience Look, in 99.9% of cases, a simple affirmative response to a negatively phrased question is understood to contradict the negative assertion, and a simple negative response affirms it.

MetaEd

@KitFox I'm on an edit binge.

Robusto

"Don't you want coffee?" "No." (No coffee is wanted.) "Don't you want coffee?" "Yes." (Coffee is desired.) Other languages are fussy about this (Japanese, for example), but English ain't concerned with the Boolean mathematics of negative questions.

Some over-fussy people will say "Yes, it is true that I don't want coffee." These are the .1% who probably will correct your grammar six or seven times per encounter.

> "No language makes perfect sense." — John McWhorter

MetaEd

16:06

@Robusto "0.1%".

Robusto

@MetaEd I rest my case.

MetaEd

:D

KitFox

Why is this?

3

Q: Using plural/singular words

I am confused on using plural/singular words. For example: Please provide passengers phone numbers. [apostrophe-s purposefully not put] I have two sentences: Please provide passengers' phone number. Please provide passengers' phone numbers. Which of the two is correct? And why? How do I di...

grammatical-number

MetaEd

16:19

@KitFox Why is what?

KitFox

This. Why?

Why is this question not closed?

Why is it asked?

Why am I here?

MetaEd

@KitFox To experience the numinous.

And to floccinaucinihilipilificate it.

RegDwight АΑA

I don't get the "apostrophe-s purposefully not put" part.

In fact I don't get what that example is doing there in the first place.

The rest of the question is about two other examples.

I think I'll comment just that.

KitFox

-3

Q: What is the word opposite of "dim"?

I want to implement a feature into an application. Need word opposite of "dim"

antonyms

Need word.

RegDwight АΑA

@KitFox There. Went with NARQ, too. Because the answer is as simple as "use singular for one, plural for more than one". That's really pointless.

@KitFox haha that's some fine entertainment for my money.

Too bad I can't see OP's original comment.

MetaEd

16:32

OP's original comment was: "Word brighten does not work, dick."

RegDwight АΑA

Ouch.

MetaEd

Sorry, it was: "Word bright does not work, dick."

RegDwight АΑA

Perhaps you should put the "Ed" part of your name in bold or something.

MetaEd

The edit covered up the offensive remark and also covered up the failure to read.

@RegDwightАΑA I should?

RegDwight АΑA

As in, "I'm not MetaDick, I'm MetaEd!" Duh.

MetaEd

16:35

@RegDwightАΑA gotcha.

RegDwight АΑA

@MetaEd but honestly, that's hilarious.

MetaEd

@RegDwightАΑA Yeah, pretty much.

RegDwight АΑA

How... um, I don't even know what adjective to use!.. an answer is that?

KitFox

Need word, dick.

Need word say "red"

RegDwight АΑA

Use black, dick!

KitFox

16:37

Hulk smash black.

RegDwight АΑA

Once you go green you immediately go back.

MetaEd

@RegDwightАΑA Tell that to Miss Piggy.

RegDwight АΑA

Miss Piggy, once you go green you immediately go back!

MetaEd

Just asking for an antonym for "dim" is pretty damned funny.

@RegDwightАΑA Good job. Now make me rich.

KitFox

And then to say, "duh, I mean a word that means brighten" makes it funnier.

RegDwight АΑA

16:39

@MetaEd Be rich. NOW. That's an order.

MetaEd

Make me.

RegDwight АΑA

I only move so many fingers on a day like this.

You'll have to wait, Ed.

KitFox

And then to conclude with "I think boost will work" just makes it yummier.

Especially when it is a "name this variable for me" question.

RegDwight АΑA

Name your variable Dick, dick.

@MetaEd actually that's not hard. All I have to do is rob everyone but you. Then you'll be rich. The second richest man on the planet, even.

MetaEd

@RegDwightАΑA I see what you did there.

RegDwight АΑA

16:44

Well I wasn't exactly hiding it.

I will hide the money, though.

Matt Эллен

uhhhh. Where did you say you'll hide the money?

KitFox

guffaw

Matt Эллен

out-idiomed

Robusto

@KitFox He might mean "dim" the way VB instantiates arrays.

MetaEd

@MattЭллен love them.

Matt Эллен

16:50

@Robusto that was my first thought

@MetaEd do you know why it's gone pink?

Robusto

There is no opposite to that. You can "redim" but you can't "undim".

KitFox

13 mins ago, by KitFox

And then to say, "duh, I mean a word that means brighten" makes it funnier.

Matt Эллен

like the education system

MetaEd

@MattЭллен Not yet.

RegDwight АΑA

Tweened!

Robusto

16:52

@KitFox Hahaha, he said that? facepalm

That is an example of a person who is so dumb he couldn't pour piss out of a boot if the directions were written on the heel.

3

MetaEd

@Robusto Yes, and when I pointed out he had answered his own question, his response was that "bright doesn't work".

KitFox

Dick.

MetaEd

Yes.

KitFox

No, you're Ed.

Robusto

@MetaEd Well, "bright" isn't a word I would associate with that fellow.

RegDwight АΑA

16:53

@Robusto Oh, your — um, who was it? — granpa again?

MetaEd

But I do answer to Dick.

Robusto

@RegDwightАΑA Yup. Though we say "grandpa" with a d. Actually, that's how we write it. We say it without the d.

MetaEd

In this chat.

Now.

Robusto

@MetaEd As you will, Mr. Head. I mean Ed.

Mister Ed

Mister Ed is an American television situation comedy produced by Filmways that first aired in syndication from January 5 to July 2, 1961, and then on CBS from October 1, 1961 to February 6, 1966. The stars of the show are Mister Ed, a palomino horse who could "talk", played by gelding Bamboo Harvester and voiced by former Western star Allan Lane (who went uncredited for the entire length of the series), and his owner, an eccentric and enormously klutzy, yet friendly, architect named Wilbur Post (Alan Young). Much of the program's humor stemmed from the fact Mister Ed would speak only t...

Matt Эллен

Or is he Mister Dead?

RegDwight АΑA

16:57

He's Weird Al Yankovic.

MetaEd

-1

Q: Does the overuse of generic terms such as good and bad indicate laziness or lying?

This video claims that our culture overuses the words "good" and "bad". It also goes so far as to say that these words indicate we may be lying about our true views by not being perhaps more superlative or specific. Edit: OK I'll try to make this question no longer subjective. Instead of asking...

word-choice pop-culture generic-term

Nice song and dance there.

RegDwight АΑA

You mean good song and dance there.

KitFox

"This goes back to an Anglo-Saxon intervocalic voicing rule." <— @JSB Going in the notebook.

MetaEd

@Robusto Hello, Wilbur. idly wonders about the IPA for a whinny

RegDwight АΑA

IPA, IPA!

MetaEd

16:59

@RegDwightАΑA Sorry.

Robusto

/wine/

RegDwight АΑA

yesterday, by RegDwight АΑA

►

MetaEd

@Robusto You left out the article.

RegDwight АΑA

/article wine/

Glad to help.

Mitch

@KitFox late to the fun...I wanted to answer, except...what a jerk.

illuminate, make brighter, enhance, ... uh ...dammit the answer is brighten.

KitFox

17:04

@Mitch Actually, it is boost.

Mitch

Oh.

RegDwight АΑA

Undeundim.

Mitch

that's not as fun as pointing out that he's an idiot because he used the word he's looking for.

@RegDwightАΑA duodenim

RegDwight АΑA

Hey sometimes there are trees all around the forest.

Mitch

(do it twelve times)

or two legged jeans.

RegDwight АΑA

17:06

Or two singers dressed in jeans.

Mitch

becasue the one-legged kind...

KitFox

@Mitch No, it's funner because he used the word he was looking for and then picked something else that isn't it.

Mitch

don't fit as well.

RegDwight АΑA

They fit exactly as well on the one leg.

Mitch

then you're wearing them wrong.

il faut souffrir pour etre belle

RegDwight АΑA

17:07

@Mitch That's because the brand is Wrongler.

Mitch

@KitFox funner cuz he's dumb.

it says so on the labelle

RegDwight АΑA

What about no-legged Wrongler?

KitFox

Oh. God. No.

RegDwight АΑA

Looks like diapers.

KitFox

Or a diaper cover.

RegDwight АΑA

17:09

@Mitch what's Patti to do with all this?

I wonder how many people will jump on this:

0

Q: 'flip bits not burgers' meaning

In Google Summer of Code, they use the phrase 'flip bits, not burgers': provide students in Computer Science and related fields the opportunity to do work related to their academic pursuits during the summer (think 'flip bits, not burgers') Doing a Google Search only turns up results which ...

meaning phrases

Easy reps.

MultiCollider, too.

Cerberus

Hello.

RegDwight АΑA

Is it me you're looking for?

Cerberus

Do I look like I'm looking?

RegDwight АΑA

Do I look like I looked into that?

Cerberus

Whatcha looking at?

RegDwight АΑA

17:14

My shopping list.

I'll be back.

Cerberus

Can't you just remember?

RegDwight АΑA

I lied.

Cerberus

I never make shopping lists.

I knew it!

RegDwight АΑA

I am looking at my socks as I'm putting them on.

Cerberus

Liar.

RegDwight АΑA

17:15

My shopping list is too short to be worthy of being written down, this time.

Cerberus

Sock-wearing bird.

I only make a list when I'm making dinner for several people or something.

RegDwight АΑA

Have you looked at my picture?

Feb 9 '11 at 13:55, by RegDwight

I have actually seen that owl in person.

Feb 9 '11 at 13:58, by RegDwight

He was so cute, wearing those fluffy pants and all.

Cerberus

Cute.

RegDwight АΑA

Oh, and a quick update on the rules here. You have to suffix all your messages with dick.

Cerberus

But your socks aren't exactly discernible.

Scuse me?

Matt Эллен

17:17

*Scuse me, dick?

RegDwight АΑA

Start reading here. It's only a dozen messages or so.

MetaEd

@Cerberus That's the problem with drying them in the collider.

RegDwight АΑA

Multi collider.

Cerberus

Hah.

I would have expected them to just get a little bit fuzzy.

What with the colliding.

The sky is as dark as after sunset.

I am expecting the most extreme rain ever.

It maxes out my phone's graph.

RegDwight АΑA

— “Why to use 'May' before using 'May God bless you'?” — “Because 'October God bless you' doesn't make sense, duh.”

Cerberus

17:20

But "March, God bless you" does.

RegDwight АΑA

Why to use comma after March but not October?

Cerberus

Why to use Inglish when one can use Chinglish?

RegDwight АΑA

Because no.

Cerberus

Ah, the rain has burst loose!

People are running.

RegDwight АΑA

Then I gotta run to the store before it reaches me.

Cerberus

17:24

It is extreme.

I hope you make it!

RegDwight АΑA

Auruguai.

Cerberus

Good luck.

Alenanno

Everyone, I have a question.

If I say "The 146 countries, as at August 1st 2012, are as follows: [...]", is it correct?

Mechanical snail

@RegDwightАΑA Earagway

KitFox

@Alenanno as of

Mechanical snail

17:29

@Alenanno you mean "as of"?

KitFox

Otherwise, yes.

Alenanno

As of means "starting ...", doesn't it?

Cerberus

Yes.

KitFox

@Alenanno Sort of. More like "on this day."

Mechanical snail

Also, needs a comma between 1st and 2012

KitFox

17:29

Not necessarily.

Cerberus

Not necessarily.

Alenanno

Not necessarily.

Mechanical snail

Not necessarily.

Alenanno

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Cerberus

Outside is like a huge shower right now.

People yelling, running, fleeing.

Alenanno

17:31

@KitFox What if I just mean "updating today"?

Cerberus

It can mean that.

Alenanno

Uhm...

Ok, thanks.

Cerberus

It is used exactly the way you used it on Wikipedia, for example.

Alenanno

I used it in Wikipedia?

Meysam

How is it that Evan Carroll's font size is so large? Even larger than the last time I checked the primary results

Alenanno

17:34

@Meysam Really? Larger?

Omg, you're right.

Meysam

@Alenanno I am not sure, but seems like it's growing

Alenanno

english.stackexchange.com/posts/75670/revisions

Mechanical snail

He made it italic but didn't actually make it bigger?

KitFox

The dashes make it into a header, don't they?

Cerberus

> It is used [exactly the way you used it] on Wikipedia, for example.

Alenanno

17:37

@KitFox Exactly.

Mechanical snail

I see.

KitFox

Oh, and ohai @Alenanno. How's Ling?

Cerberus

We prefer to call it Ling-Ling.

Alenanno

@KitFox Fighting its way up. We're in the process of making the blog (still getting the people)

KitFox

Sorry I haven't been over much. I decided to put my efforts into the Writers beta.

Alenanno

17:38

@KitFox No worries! You're always welcome. :)

Mechanical snail

@KitFox Are you talking about the linguistics SE?

Alenanno

Of course!

@Mechanicalsnail Yes.

Robusto

@Cerberus Hullo, former dog star.

Cerberus

Former?

Robusto

2 hours ago, by Robusto

Rin-tin-tin was a dog star, but Sirius is the Dog Star. @Cerberus is a former (i.e., "has-been") dog star.

Cerberus

17:42

I ain't no has-been!

Robusto

Then stop resting on your laurels and get out there and do something.

Cerberus

Sirius is just flagrantly trying to steal attention from me.

Alenanno

Thanks everyone for your help! I'm out :)

Cerberus

Literally, assuming you know what flagrant means.

@Robusto Where?

I am here, trying to keep you under control.

Robusto

@Cerberus And how's that working out for you?

Cerberus

17:58

It's a demanding job.

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…