English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

tchrist

18:00

That sounds more like Nazi eugenics experimentation.

HOWEVER, combined with informed consent this can speed things up signficantly.

Well, even without. But you know.

Cerberus

*guerrilleros

Or guerrilleras

tchrist

You shouldn't deliberately expose someone ELSE to a potentially fatal disease just to see whether your vaccine works.

Right, guerra/guerre has a double-R.

What you do with your own body is not for me to judge.

Cerberus

18:42

@tchrist Oh, right.

@tchrist That is why we have ethical commissions to approve of all medical research with test subjects.

But not all organisations do...

Mitch

19:00

@Cerberus Of course they will. It won't kill everyone or even 30% black death rates. But even 5% is worse than WWII worldwide percentage.

Cerberus

@Mitch I don't think it will be 5%.

And that percentage was much higher in Europe and East-Asia, I believe.

tchrist

@Cerberus I believe all reputable organizations have institutional review boards which are "an appropriately constituted group that has been formally designated to review and monitor biomedical research involving human subjects". But keep in mind that these are very different from the wholly separate external safety review boards that monitor clinical trials.

Mitch

Yes. South America and India weren't affected much. But East Asia? That's Japan -and- China. ~4 and ~3% respectively

tchrist

> More than six months into the pandemic, the coronavirus has infected more than 11 million people worldwide, killing more than 525,000. But despite the increasing toll, scientists still do not have a clear answer to one of the most fundamental questions about the virus: How deadly is it?

A firm estimate could help governments predict how many deaths would ensue if the virus spread out of control. The figure, usually called the infection fatality rate, could tell health officials what to expect as the pandemic spreads in densely populated nations like Brazil, India and Nigeria.

ref

Mitch

@Cerberus I'm guessing on ~5% mortality based on things like what @tchrist just posted, currently 11M, infected 500K dead.

M.A.R.

19:13

@tchrist Well to be frank how much does it matter for someone that's not going to be conducting a related research?

If the recent uneducated opinions on the virus mean anything, it's that people dunno whether to freak out at 1.7 or 5.7.

Cerberus

@tchrist Yes, but some clandestine Russian research group sanctioned by Putin to push out a vaccine as soon as possible, coûte que coûte...

M.A.R.

And if politicians don't listen they're no better than normal people.

Cerberus

@Mitch I only mean the eastern littoral areas.

tchrist

@Cerberus Ou qui.

Cerberus

So only coastal China.

M.A.R.

19:14

Ultimately it's just going to get politicized for the masses. 4.1 or 4.6 don't matter.

Cerberus

@tchrist Vraiment.

M.A.R.

Who's Vraymond

Cerberus

@Mitch Yeah, I don't know that percentage would seem high, if you look at Tchrist's 0.64%.

And I think the number of people infected is a big unknown.

All we know is that it is a lot higher than we know.

tchrist

Raymond of Burgundy

Raymond of Burgundy (c. 1070 – 24 May 1107) was the ruler of Galicia from about 1090 until his death. He was the fourth son of Count William I of Burgundy and Stephanie. He married Urraca, future queen of León, and was the father of the future Alfonso VII. When Raymond and his cousin, Henry of Burgundy, first arrived in Iberia is uncertain, but it probably was with the army of Duke Odo I of Burgundy in 1086. In April 1087, the army abandoned the siege of Tudela. While most of the army returned home, Odo and his retinue went west. By 21 July 1087 they were probably at Burgos, at the court of King...

NB: Urraca means "magpie".

In all senses.

Cerberus

And all this assumes we don't get an effective vaccine in the intermediate future, nor another effective treatment.

M.A.R.

19:18

@tchrist I see the resemblance

Cerberus

@tchrist From what language?

Basque maybe?

Or even Moorish?

M.A.R.

COVID is in its slow progression towards 'just another illness'. All we have to do in the meantime is keep the fudging masks on our faces, and people are already failing at that.

tchrist

> Del nombre proprio Urraca; cf. marica, latín tardío gaia, francés margot e inglés mag, denominaciones de la urraca provenientes de n. p. de mujer.

Not sure how they got there.

Reminds me of papagayo

M.A.R.

Maybe the bird sounds like that?

tchrist

Wiktionary says it's of "imitative origin". Harrumph.

M.A.R.

19:22

Hah.

tchrist

It is raucous indeed. Have you no magpies?

M.A.R.

I dunno bird names.

Or vegetable names.

tchrist

Magpie

Magpies are birds of the Corvidae family. The black and white Eurasian magpie is widely considered one of the most intelligent animals in the world and one of only a few non-mammal species able to recognize itself in a mirror test. In addition to other members of the genus Pica, corvids considered as magpies are in the genera Cissa, Urocissa and Cyanopica. Magpies of the genus Pica are generally found in temperate regions of Europe, Asia and western North America, with populations also present in Tibet and high elevation areas of India, i.e. Ladakh (Kargil and Leh) and Pakistan. Magpies of the...

M.A.R.

I never figured out how people can tell them apart. I mean, at least birds have different colors.

tchrist

سیانا کاں

سیانا کاں کاں ٹبر دے پنچھیاں دی اک ٹولی اے۔ ایہ رکھاں تے ای ریندے نیں تے گھٹ ای زمین تے رہندے نیں۔ ایس دی سیانف باہجوں ایہدا ایہ ناں رکھیا گیا اے۔ == ونڈاں == کالا سیانا کاں ٹیمنورس ٹیمنورس ہرا سیانا کاں ہند چینی ہرا سیانا کاں جاوی ہرا سیانا کاں بورنی ہرا سیانا کاں تائیوانی نیلا سیانا کاں لال چنجوالا نیلا سیانا کاں پیلی چنجوالا نیلا سیانا کاں سری لنکی نیلا سیانا کاں چٹپرا سیانا کاں == بارلے جوڑ == وڈیو...

M.A.R.

19:23

I have several different noises outside my window besides house sparrows and doves (pigeons?) and The Night's Watch

tchrist

Just in case you read Western Pujabi. :)

M.A.R.

But how do I know which bird it is

tchrist

You listen.

M.A.R.

See, I never got a hang of these mystical arts.

Bird is bird, dangit.

tchrist

I'm not talking about ornithomancy.

Auspicious though it may be.

When your friend calls you from the next room, need you see his face to know who calls you?

M.A.R.

19:26

No really, I can't name birds or vegetables in ANY of my languages.

tchrist

Then how do you manage to order food in a restaurant?

M.A.R.

@tchrist You ARE talking about orthodontia

I haven't chanced upon one with bird waiters

They'd probably shit on your plate

tchrist

In Iran you have the Russian magpie, Pica pica bactriana. Apparently it has two humps. :)

It of course looks just like our own Pica pica.

M.A.R.

They all look alike. Except the sparrows and crows

tchrist

How rude!

I'll tell them you said so.

M.A.R.

19:31

Hey I'm talking from Cersei's POV.

tchrist

The Faith Militant was always a bad idea. Maegor was right.

M.A.R.

Empowering monks has always been a terrible move in history

Look at our Persia.

Cerberus

@M.A.R. Nobody wears masks here except in public transportation. And we quickly got the epidemic under control as soon as we instituted a partial lockdown (mainly all gatherings of more than a few people and places where alcohol is drunk). Shops and parks and similar have always remained open.

M.A.R.

Sasanian Empire

The Sasanian Empire (), officially known as the Empire of Iranians (Middle Persian: 𐭠𐭩𐭥𐭠𐭭𐭱𐭲𐭥𐭩 Ērānshahr), and called the Neo-Persian Empire by historians, was the last Persian imperial dynasty before the arrival of Islam in the mid seventh century AD. Named after the House of Sasan, it endured for over four centuries, from 224 to 651 AD, making it the longest-lived Persian dynasty. The Sasanian Empire succeeded the Parthian Empire, and reestablished the Iranians as a superpower. For the next four hundred years, it would be recognized as one of the leading world powers in late antiq...

Cerberus

The lockdown should have happened two weeks earlier: that could have saved a lot of lives. But face masks? Why?

M.A.R.

19:34

@Cerberus Well that's because . . . Well that's because you're Dutchmen!

tchrist

@Cerberus Because they save lives.

Look at Taiwan, Japan.

M.A.R.

You definitely need masks for closed spaces at least.

Cerberus

@M.A.R. Not really: I think many countries don't have compulsory masks in public.

M.A.R.

If anything, it's a reminder not to be a jackass.

@Cerberus Neither did ours, it's just that people have grown lax over here

Cerberus

@tchrist They may save lives if one cannot or will not keep a distance from others.

M.A.R.

19:36

I think many countries are experiencing another surge (?)

Cerberus

Not in Europe, nor in East Asia?

Only minor flare-ups.

tchrist

Shared air.

Cerberus

But now authorities institute quick, local lock-downs.

They should have done that in the beginning.

It works well enough, so far.

M.A.R.

Although not of course as great as the greatest country made even greater by a great man

What if he misspelled it and he meant "grate", I dunno

@Cerberus You need masks in closed spaces. Definitely

In open areas, it might give you a false sense of security

tchrist

> Yet in some parts of Asia everyone wears a mask by default - it is seen as safer and more considerate.

In mainland China, Hong Kong, Japan, South Korea, Thailand and Taiwan, the broad assumption is that anyone could be a carrier of the virus, even healthy people. So in the spirit of solidarity, you need to protect others from yourself.

Some places take this idea very seriously: in some parts of China, you could be arrested or punished for not wearing a mask. In Singapore, which used to discourage citizens from wearing masks, it's now compulsory to wear one outside or risk a fine of S$3…

You can't enter any business without wearing a mask here.

Cerberus

19:39

China had a huge outbreak in the beginning.

So did Japan and Korea.

They got it under control.

But was it because of face masks, or because of other measures?

tchrist

They stopped accepting cruise ships. :)

Cerberus

I personally think the most important thing is to be early, and to forbid public gatherings, make people keep their distance from others. But I'm sure it's very hard to find out.

@tchrist Yeah, but that was not all.

Korea had this church epidemic.

tchrist

> As San Francisco reopens, more people will be outside. By putting on your face covering when you are walking and see someone at 30 feet away, both of you will have enough time to put on your face coverings if you get close to each other.

M.A.R.

@Cerberus 1 2 (First wave tho) 3 4 (also 1st surge)

tchrist

> Face coverings are required when you are:

Waiting to be seated at an outdoor dining area, or whenever you leave your table (you don’t need to wear it while eating)
Waiting in line to go inside a store
Shopping at a store
On public transportation (or waiting for it)
Driving or riding in a taxi or rideshare vehicle (even by yourself)
Seeking healthcare
Going into facilities allowed to stay open, like laundromats, banks, and government buildings
In a common area inside a building, like an elevator, hallway, stairway, or parking lot

Cerberus

19:43

@M.A.R. What am I looking for?

> (you don’t need to wear it while eating)

Oh, that's a relief.

tchrist

Those requirements seem merely prudent.

M.A.R.

@Cerberus new daily cases

tchrist

Why are you eating around other people!?

Cerberus

@M.A.R. If you cannot keep the number of people inside low and/or have poor ventilation.

@tchrist Yeah, I suppose it is against proper etiquette!

tchrist

Has to be external ventilation.

By definition, anything that isn't blowing outside air through constantly has poor ventilation.

Cerberus

19:46

@tchrist I'm sorry, but I doubt whether this is practical. Will people suffer those rules?

@tchrist Open windows?

I don't think we're aiming at zero new infections.

At least not here.

tchrist

@Cerberus Suffer or die. That's San Francisco for you, and not de Assisi either.

Cerberus

When the government was talking about how people needed to get used to a "1.5-metre society", they were sent urgent reports by the Bureau of Statistics, the Bureau of the Living Environment, and another highly regarded bureau of state I can't remember.

They all urged the government not do this.

tchrist

It's too close.

Cerberus

Because support for government policies was crucial.

tchrist

Even two meters is too close.

You need three or better.

Cerberus

19:49

If support crumbles, the measures will lose their effectiveness.

So the government dropped that idea.

They've changed to a policy of loosening and tightening restrictions as necessary.

tchrist

It seems to work in shops.

Cerberus

Shops have always remained open here.

But shopkeepers made sure there never were more than x number of people inside at the same time.

tchrist

Haha.

Cerberus

And people were asked to keep 1.5 metres distance.

tchrist

MOAR SHEKELS!

Cerberus

19:50

All shops that I have seen seemed to support the rules well enough.

And so did the people.

When I was on the train, I only saw maybe one or two people without a face mask.

I think that support is crucial, or you lose.

tchrist

Six feet away, or six feet under. Your choice.

Cerberus

How can you make policy without support?

I do think there are several ways that lead to Rome.

Several valid ones.

Each having its advantages.

tchrist

Imagine if the populace decided that they had had enough with speed limits on streets.

Cerberus

Some may have more deaths than others.

tchrist

It takes away their freedoms.

Cerberus

19:52

@tchrist There is enough support for those rules, and enough capacity to have some enforcement.

tchrist

Their personal freedom to kill whomever they may.

We as a society have chosen to deny them that "freedom".

Cerberus

Of course.

tchrist

Same with drunk driving.

How is this different?

Cerberus

But you need to do so as a society.

1 min ago, by Cerberus

@tchrist There is enough support for those rules, and enough capacity to have some enforcement.

tchrist

Urban infestations are their own punishment.

Cerberus

19:54

Maybe requiring face masks everywhere works. It must also depend on the place and the people.

tchrist

Of course pestilence spreads unabated when you live shoulder to shoulder.

Cerberus

All I'm saying is that there is a problem if society doesn't support certain rules, possibly undermining the effectiveness of the larger policy.

@tchrist We didn't have big outbreaks in our big cities, though.

tchrist

I remember those insanely crowded pictures of your over-touristed city.

Cerberus

On average, I'm sure it spreads more easily in cities.

But there are many other factor.

And I think luck plays an important role.

@tchrist Yeah, those will not be accepted now.

But the tourists stayed away as the epidemic began to reach us.

tchrist

Luck always plays an important factor in any game of Russian roulette.

Cerberus

19:57

Whatever measures each country took here, it should have taken them weeks earlier.

tchrist

Two to four in most cases.

Six in others.

Cerberus

I'm not saying Italy was wrong in forbidding people from walking in the street. But I do doubt whether it was really necessary, whether it made a difference.

@tchrist Yeah.

tchrist

We just cannot muster the will to do anything but react to the present, but the present numbers are always weeks out of date.

Cerberus

And the way the Chinese spray streets with disinfectants? I think chances are less less than slight that this made any difference.

@tchrist We could have known.

tchrist

This, all of this, is exactly what happened everywhere in 1918.

Cerberus

19:59

Yeah, except that we had a lot more medical knowledge and means this time.

We were much better prepared.

On the other hand, we had much more long-distance travel.

And even local travel.

tchrist

Lockdowns, mask wars, reopenings, returned exponential growth worse than before, more lockdowns.

Cerberus

Than in 1918.

tchrist

Nothing new under the sun.

World travel, yes.

Not so many cars then.

Rather fewer aircraft. :)

Cerberus

Also travel between cities and villages, and even between parts of a city.

tchrist

This time it has panned out faster.

Cerberus

20:01

Yes.

tchrist

What do we as a society owe those who put their lives on the line that we might live?

And what do we owe those who perished in the effort?

In wartime, we purport to have answers to those questions.

But now? Not so much.

I don't have an answer.

I only see the debt unpaid.

Cerberus

I think wages for nurses will eventually be raised here.

Also because we have had an increasing shortage for a while now.

tchrist

We should have both immediate payouts and also survivors pensions for qualified surviving spouses and dependent children of frontline healthcare workers who have died because of this.

And we need some sort of way of officially recognizing their service.

I don't know how, or what. Perhaps service awards.

Think about those who've died in the slaughterhouses that Trump used the Defence Production Act to keep open and running no matter the cost in human lives.

It's not just those who've died, either. Those who've suffered greatly from the illness, sometimes with permanent effects.

We have MADE them continue to work by invoking a war-powers act.

They deserve no less than any other veteran wounded or killed in combat.

Australia just locked down a bunch of public housing towers for five days. Nobody can leave their apartment.

Hope they have good air.

> Mayor Kate Gallego of Phoenix said she had asked the Federal Emergency Management Agency to help alleviate a crush in testing demand by sending teams to do community-based tests, but was “told they’re moving away from that, which feels like they’re declaring victory while we’re in crisis mode.”

FEMA is supposed to be in charge of declared national emergencies. They aren't. Nobody is.

Robusto

20:37

-1

Q: "English" pronounced as /ˈɪŋlɪʃ/ ING-LISH

According to Wiktionary, in Old English the term Englisc still shows in its pronunciation the sound /g/, so how come it is not pronounced by some speakers? Any other terms where a similar phenomenon appears?

pronunciation

Dafuq?

I literally cannot pronounce English without at least a vestigial /g/ in there. I defy anyone else to try.

Færd

I tried.

Robusto

And did you succeed?

Færd

No :)

Robusto

I can't even get there doing it slowly, trying to be as smooth as possible between the /l/ and the /g/.

At some point, the hard /g/ has to raise its weary head.

Færd

You'd have to pause between the syllables.

Mitch

20:42

@tchrist Mask it or casket

Robusto

@Færd But even if you pause, you still have to release the /ŋ/ at some point, and then ... bingo. You produce at least the trace of a /g/.

tchrist

@Robusto I certainly can do so.

Whether I normally do so, I'm unsure.

Robusto

@tchrist I don't believe you. Without even a trace?

Mitch

Apr 29 at 15:07, by Mitch

Mar 2 at 18:13, by Mitch

Dec 31 '18 at 22:48, by Mitch

Nov 9 at 14:20, by Mitch

Oct 18 at 14:11, by Mitch

Jun 1 at 19:04, by Mitch

May 17 '17 at 19:08, by Mitch

there's nothing new under the sun

Robusto

I keep trying and I can't. There's some point between /ŋ/ and /l/ where a faint /g/ has to come out.

tchrist

20:44

There is no /g/ in /ŋ/ from /ˈɪŋlɪʃ/.

Robusto

You're just restating your assertion now.

tchrist

Just as there is no /g/ in /ˈsɪŋɪŋ/.

Mitch

@tchrist The ventilation routes are important, so as not to inadvertently infect other floors/apartments.

tchrist

Do you think that singing has "a trace of g" in it??

Robusto

Not the same thing.

tchrist

20:45

What about thing? What about think?

Robusto

I make no claims about those. I'm just talking about English.

tchrist

It citation form? Probably not. But it may be, in some utterances.

Mitch

@Robusto Can you say 'singer' without the extra hard-g?

Robusto

NOT THE SAME THING!

41 secs ago, by Robusto

I make no claims about those. I'm just talking about English.

Mitch

@tchrist oops....jinx

tchrist

20:46

/ˈɪŋ.lɪʃ/ and /ˈɪŋ.glɪʃ/ may both occur.

Mitch

@Robusto how is it not the same thing?

Færd

It's about the succeeding sound: /l/

Mitch

is it the 'l'?

Færd

When the back of your tongue leaves the ceiling of the mouth to pronounce the l there's a click of a semi-g.

tchrist

It depends whether the second syllable begins with /l/.

Mitch

20:46

the non-syllabic 'l'

tchrist

I can certainly say it both ways.

Robusto

@Mitch I make the claim only about English, and I would only extend it to words containing an /ŋ/ followed by an /l/.

Mitch

Or is it just habit, there happens to be no oether lexical item that has 'ngl' that isn't pronounced without hard-g

tchrist

What normally happens in connected speech is uŋclear to me now.

Robusto

So fuck your singers and thinkers and dingers and wankers.

Færd

20:47

This chat should support voice messages.

Robusto

Try angler or dangling, words of that sort.

tchrist

Just say the second syllable. What's its first sound?

Please don't finger the singer.

Mitch

@tchrist 'single' is /sijŋ gl/

@tchrist with a hangar

haha which is sometimes with and without g

Robusto

I have to make the /ŋ/ terminal before I can say the /l/ without a /g/ somewhere in between.

Færd

@tchrist Or anchor the wanker

Mitch

20:49

or stinker the pinker?

tchrist

Trying singing lish.

Mitch

or stinger the pinger (someone who pings?)

tchrist

danker

Robusto

More to the point: "But why are you resurrecting Old English as a rubric for current pronunciation? Should we pronounce initial /g/ as /y/? Or all /f/ between vowels as /v/? The list goes on. "

Why should Old English govern today's pronunciation?

tchrist

@Mitch Anglify Bangladeshi anglers alarmingly.

Færd

20:54

@Mitch Or monkey the junkie

@M.A.R. It's not obvious to me, since I've not seen the details of the study (assuming there is one). No idea.

But what's it got to do with survivorship bias? Most people are surviving the virus; the effect that it may have made is an order of magnitude lower than 20%. And it's to the reverse: it makes the total infection rate lower, because some of those infected have died.

tchrist

Commingling tingling fingerlings.

The bells of the kingling are not jingling.

Wingless

Færd

You're mangling the dangling pangolins.

Robusto

@Færd That's a bingo!

tchrist

Looking for the viral reservoir.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…