English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

tchrist

00:23

> Is planet lost at Master Obi-Wan. (Gaelic)

I not you will-teach more today. (French)

I will my own counsel on them, who trained become, keep. (German)

@RegDwigнt Notice that last one. :)

From theweek.com/articles/442256/why-strangely-yoda-speaks

trained become keep

Flippin’ verb-stacks.

Mitch

00:52

@RegDwigнt ugh

stupid people asking stupid questions about something that's not a thing

Feeds

0

Q: Is there a word to describe a compulsion to eat a particular food, or the food item itself?

A recent conversation I had went along the lines of: Me: You don't need to have [food X] every day. We can eat something else instead. Family member: Yes, I do. Is there a word to describe either such a deeply felt conviction or the food on which the individual is fixated? It is not a ...

single-word-requests

Cerberus

02:22

@Robusto Then I must congratulate you, Zeno.

Feeds

03:08

0

Q: What's the opposite of opportunity?

What word is the opposite of opportunity? The commonly listed antonyms are not helpful. closing closure misfortune reality truth bad luck

single-word-requests

Feeds

06:11

0

Q: A noun for an effort that is done feverishly but pointless

I have seen this word before, but cannot recall. I can recall the scenario : a soldier used this word to describe his time in the army: They followed the commands and fought feverishly "for glory" but all they did was killing and rampaging. So the soldier called that " the time of ___ in my earl...

single-word-requests

Færd

06:29

@Mitch Some Farsi folk poetry does rely on word stresses as a chief instrument for rhythmization, but in most "literary" poetry, especially before the emergence of free verse, different kinds of syllables clearly quantize the beat, regardless of stress. Stress patterns could be used as additional ornamental devices. It could get a bit complicated.

@Cerberus Thanks. I think that's about right, generally.

But notwithstanding the mood swings, both parties have been fairly consistent in preserving some of the key factors of the conventional American polity. Eg, the whole arms and military apparatus, both domestic and abroad.

Færd

06:53

And those conventions tend to eventually reinforce the kinds of right wing policies that some eg democratic governments appear to differ from.

I don't know enough about the other anglophone countries to comment on them.

CowperKettle

09:57

Гей по синьому морю / Hey over the blue sea - Ukrainian folk cossack song

►

Is there a special term in linguistics for when a number is used to denote "innumerable multitude"?

For instance, in this Ukrainian song, 40 000 Cossacks are freed from a slave ship.

But in reality the words "forty thousand" mean "many"

In Old Ukrainian this figure, "forty thousand", used to refer to "uncountable multitude"

Are there parallels in other languages, and what is the term for this?

I'm not even sure for what to google in this case. "Definite number in old language, for indefinite multitude"?

Guten Tag, @RegDwigнt

RegDwigнt

Здрасьте.

@CowperKettle there is no term for this because that is not a thing that happens to numbers. That is just a thing with exactly one number, 40. In all languages. Because of the bible.

Jesus and the 40 days in the desert. Ali Baba and the 40 robbers.

CowperKettle

AliExpress and 40-day shipment

RegDwigнt

Yes, another good one.

Anyway, it's just a different meaning of this one word.

And an archaic meaning, too.

Kind of like the apple that Adam ate was not apple. "Apple" simply meant "fruit".

CowperKettle

No. I seem to recall that in Old Russian, the figure used was 10 000 or something.. I don't recall clearly. Hmm.. Maybe not.

terdon

@RegDwigнt Is it? I can't think of such a case in English or any other language I'm familiar with. I'd understand 40k to mean 40 thousand specifically, not just "lots".

RegDwigнt

10:08

That I don't know. Or don't remember.

@terdon how about you read on just one more line :-P

CowperKettle

Ah! The word тьма in Russian, which means "a great lot of (somethining)" comes from Turkic tumen, meaning 10 000.

terdon

I did, and yes, I can think of various cases in various languages where the number 40 was used, seemingly for no good reason. It had just never occurred to me that it might not mean 2x20 but just "many".

CowperKettle

When I heard this song I thought "What on Earth? What kind of ship could house 40 thousand prisoners?" and then googled and found that in the olden times they used 40 000 as a placeholder for "many"

RegDwigнt

@CowperKettle yes, that I know. But it's not related to 40 in any way.

CowperKettle

I know. But maybe this is a common phenomenon and there are other "definite numbers" in other languages that are used to say "many"

RegDwigнt

10:10

Anyway, there's a lot of stuff that pretty much all languages share that just shouldn't be happening, like, ever, so when it does happen you know where to look first. The Bible.

CowperKettle

Like "I went to the concert and there were 100 thousand folks" (in reality I was just impressed, but don't know how many there were)

terdon

@RegDwigнt If only that effect were limited to language.

CowperKettle

Maybe I should ask this question on main site, or on Linguistics SE

RegDwigнt

What question now.

I thought we answered all your questions just now.

CowperKettle

13 mins ago, by CowperKettle

Is there a special term in linguistics for when a number is used to denote "innumerable multitude"?

Cup Fever

10:12

infinite

CowperKettle

yep

RegDwigнt

Well. As I was saying. No.

That's like asking "is there a special term in linguistics for when the word for a door is used to denote a scandal?"

There is no term for this because there's exactly one word in that entire category. And people don't like labeling categories with just one member element. They don't really consider them categories.

terdon

@CowperKettle I think there are two things here. The English example you used would have also worked with "a million people" or "a hundred people" or whatever. You seem to be suggesting that in Ukranian, the phenomenon was specific to 40000.

RegDwigнt

It's not specific to 40000. It's specific to 40. Which has the second meaning of "many".

Am I walking at the wall here?

No other number has that specific meaning. You can use any big number to denote, well, a very big number. But that's just called hyperbole.

terdon

OK, to 40. But I'm not convinced that's as global a thing as you're suggesting.

You could say the same about the other magic numbers, like 7 or 3 and its multiples.

RegDwigнt

10:17

@terdon It is simply by the virtue of Jesus spending 40 days in the desert in every single language, and Ali Baba having to face 40 robbers in every single language.

So in every language you have to go and explain to your kids, that's not really 40. They meant "many" there. In every language. Always. Jesus doesn't suddenly spend 39 days in the desert, or 100000, when translated into Greek. It is always 40.

That is all I'm saying.

terdon

@RegDwigнt I would guess it's much older than that. The multiples of 3, for example, are found in various places in Ancient Greek mythology. Maybe the Bible just picked up a trend rather than set it.

@RegDwigнt And you may well be right. I had always assumed it was exactly 40.

RegDwigнt

Of course it picked up a trend and did not set it. It used "40" to mean "many" because "40" already meant just that when the Bible was written.

Just like it used "apple" to mean "fruit" because "apple" actually meant "fruit" back then.

terdon

Yeah, that's what I'm curious about. Does 40 really mean many and not 40?

CowperKettle

books.google.ru/…;сорок+тысяч"+‌в+украинской+песне&source=bl&ots=OuWdrvsjny&sig=TmosZzgIGC-D8yu0Ad5i8a3HPnE&hl=ru‌&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwib4NOD2oLcAhWshqYKHW_qD8gQ6AEIRzAG#v=onepage&q="сорок%20тысяч"%2‌0в%20украинской%20песне&f=false

RegDwigнt

@CowperKettle yeah see, it talks about 40 and not 40000.

40 калик, сорок царей.

И сорок богатырей

CowperKettle

10:20

The books says that "in Ukrainian songs, the figure 40000 always means "a lot of warriors, a host"

I noticed this in three Ukrainian songs

In this song, 40000 prisoners = "a lot of prisoners"

I never noticed this in any Russian song

RegDwigнt

Dude. The book literally says "здесь число сорок". It is talking about the number 40. It is not talking about the number 40000.

40 = "many". 40 kings = "many kings". 40000 warriors = "many thousand warriors".

40000 does not mean a lot. 40 means a lot. and 40000 means a lot of thousands.

CowperKettle

сорок тысяч highlighted in yellow is forty thousand

RegDwigнt

Are you actually listening.

You highlighted that yourself. How about you highlight just "сорок" instead. And see how the picture changes.

The book is talking about the number 40. These are examples of the number 40.

There. I'll even do it for you.

Число сорок число типичное. Не число сорок тысяч. Число сорок.

Vadim Galygin

Hello!

Is warehouse ok word? Or there are other word that is used instead of it?

I don't like how it sounds

terdon

10:41

umm... Yes, warehouse is absolutely OK.

bertieb

Is there a convention here on ELU to wait before accepting an answer?

I have a (single-word-req) Q with a spot-on answer, so I am inclined to accept

terdon

@bertieb Not as such, no. People often choose to wait in case a better answer comes along. But if you've already received a great one, feel free to accept.

bertieb

But there might be a synonym or other technical term which others may be dissuaded from posting

@terdon Fab thanks 👍

Feeds

1

Q: Is there a term for a section of an article which contains a quote or snippet from the main text?

Sometimes in articles in newspapers / magazines / websites there will be a small section separate from the main body of text that contains a short line - often a quote - which is either representative of the article or an interesting angle. For example: Here the quote in the box on the right ...

single-word-requests

Feeds

11:42

0

Q: What dose "Corporate Use" mean?

Does the word "Corporate Use" mean "used by a company"? Corporate Use Allowed corporate usage: Architectural renderings, Website design, Corporate communications, Marketing collateral. Prohibited corporate usage: Business logos or trademarks. You are free to use TurboSquid pr...

single-word-requests

Mitch

12:42

@RegDwigнt Chinese uses qian 千 (or is it wan 万?) nominally 10,000, for any big number

but the name for doing this is ... hyperbole as you noted

for the record 40 is a stupid number

it's one of the least numbers about which there is very little interesting to say

we could easily skip it and no one would notice

@bertieb yes, the best procedure is to wait a day. There's no benefit to accepting immediately, no matter how appropriate the early answer is.

bertieb

@Mitch Ah, fair enough will bear that in mind for future (seems harsh to unaccept!). Cheers :)

Mitch

@VadimGalygin lots of words have bad mouthfeel. Like for example 'mouthfeel'. Ugh. But it depends a lot on personal preference. I've heard that a lot of people don't care for the word 'moist', but I don't mind.

@bertieb Oh, yeah, that would be weird to unaccept.

@Færd There is word stress in Farsi, right? does it depend on the word or is it always, say, the last syllable of a word?

Robusto

13:03

@RegDwigнt That video is unavailable in my language.

Feeds

0

Q: What's the word for a course you take (esp. in an institute) to improve your mark in a subject at school?

I googled it and found the following, but I'm not sure if they are applicable to my situation. A refresher course A brush-up course

single-word-requests word-usage

Cerberus

@Færd That sounds similar to Greek and Latin poetry.

@Færd Yes, they're fairly rightwing to our standards.

But don't underestimate how all countries do this in their foreign policy.

It's just less visible when they're smaller.

Robusto

@Mitch 10,000 is 万 in Japanese, which got it from Chinese, so ...

Also, a million is 百万 (hyakuman) (100 ten thousands) which has always cramped my brain when thinking about numbers in Japanese.

Mitch

Next you're gonna tell me that Japanese has no word for no or any negative, and so you can't even express that sentiment in Japanese.

And the French. OMG. I'll just leave it at that

Cerberus

You must always say yes.

Mitch

13:15

Yes

Robusto

@Mitch On the contrary. They made a form of musical theater about that:

Noh

Noh (能, Nō), derived from the Sino-Japanese word for "skill" or "talent", is a major form of classical Japanese musical drama that has been performed since the 14th century. Developed by Kan'ami and his son Zeami, it is the oldest major theatre art that is still regularly performed today. Traditionally, a Noh program includes five Noh plays with comedic kyōgen plays in between; an abbreviated program of two Noh plays and one kyōgen piece has become common in Noh presentations today. An okina (翁) play may be presented in the very beginning especially during New Years, holidays, and other special...

Mitch

And read between the lines to see if they really mean 'yes' or... just 'yes'

Robusto

Haha, The Economist screwed the pooch this week. See if you can find the error: "Congressmen who have become grand through committee memberships will be loathe to give up their power." (p. 22 June 30th-July 6th edition).

Mitch

@Robusto Noh plays is just kabuki theater

Robusto

@Mitch Noh it isn't.

Mitch

13:18

@Robusto I think you're missing the point. They love dogs

Robusto

All work and Noh play makes Ichiro a dull boy.

Cerberus

Loath?

Robusto

@Cerberus bing!

Cerberus

shudders

Such horror, I shall cancel my subscription.

Robusto

One doesn't expect to find that sort of error in The Economist.

But it happens. I've found such in The New Yorker even.

One writer used noisome to mean noisy. I had my own private smirk about that.

Mitch

13:23

@Cerberus I don't have a subscription. I will subscribe in order to immediately unsubscribe. But then forget, in order to enjoy the crossword puzzle and comics

@Robusto That stinks

Cerberus

Smart thinking.

Mitch

Also, their movie reviews.

Cerberus

@Robusto I would find that error more surprising than loath(e).

Robusto

@Cerberus Indeed.

It's on the order of using enormity to refer to size.

Mitch

I don't care for 'loath' or 'loathe' or 'loth' (ugh that last one)

Cerberus

13:25

Journalists are often under great pressure from deadlines and possible unemployment.

Robusto

@Cerberus Well, so is anyone who has an actual job.

Cerberus

@Robusto Like using grotesque for great?

Mitch

you could say I'm loath to use them

Cerberus

@Robusto Pressure is especially high on journalists.

Robusto

@Mitch I could say that, but I wouldn't.

Cerberus

13:26

Newspapers are continually shrinking.

Mitch

@Robusto you seem sore wroth this morning

@Cerberus the paper versions

Robusto

@Cerberus Indeed. Except in the Age of Trump, which has seen "the failing New York Times" surge in circulation.

Mitch

advertising and classifieds have moved on

Robusto

I wonder if, should Trump ever leave office, journalism will be in trouble again.

Mitch

@Robusto and washington post

Robusto

13:28

Aye.

Mitch

all the small town local papers have been bought by some nefarious loathsome conglomerate

Robusto

Feb 16 '13 at 16:37, by Robusto

@tchrist The single greatest grating upon my fastidious ear by George Martin: his use of wroth as a noun.

@Mitch In your neck of the woods, that would be Wicked Local.

Mitch

and publish articles about the new recycling regulations that everyone will ignore

And shoveling your sidewalk after a snowstorm! How dare they!

@Robusto Which I'm sure is just one of many names that a corporate owner from Houston decided would be appropriate. Like they name all their Washington state State news "Java Journalism"

because coffee.

let me explain that joke a little more

Robusto

No. Because Starbucks ...

Mitch

see, coffee comes from tropical areas

Robusto

13:32

And the Olympic Peninsula is a rain forest. I get it.

Mitch

and Java (an island in Indonesia) is a major producer and exporter of it.

and Washington state is home to more than one coffee chain store (yes Starbucks, but also a couple others whose names I can't remember and I don't want to bother googling for)

Robusto

There is a coffee shop in ABQ called Java Joe's. I don't get the Joe's part. What does that have to do with coffee?

Mitch

one has the word 'Cuppa' in it, which is such an abomination, I may have to give up English to avoid it.

But anyway, I think I've explained sufficiently.

If you have any more questions, I'll be glad to take them.

Robusto

@Mitch Pfft. You're not even at two decimal places yet.

That's slide-rule precision, buddy.

Anonymous

@Robusto Kettles and I were talking about native Japanese numerals in another room, やお yao < yapo 'eight hundred' and よろず yorozu < yorodu 'ten thousand'. In Old Japanese, yorodu literally meant 'ten thousand' but was usually used in the sense of 'many' (or 'various'). Similarly for yapo. Compare yaoya 'greengrocer' (lit. 'seller of 800 [things]' = seller of many things = seller of a large variety of things).

Mitch

13:34

@Robusto Joe is often a word for coffee. it makes total sense.

if you've had radical cerebral resection

Robusto

@snailboat Interesting.

Mitch

which goes for some people who answer on ELU

WTH

why are people so stupid

can't they actually read and try to understand the question before answering?

I can understand not writing an answer well. but just getting the whole idea wrong.

Robusto

@snailboat Maybe their heads hurt from all that as well. ^_^ Why they started using 沢山, perhaps.

@Mitch That's too much work.

It's also too much work, apparently, to ask the question in the headline and then support it in the text.

Mitch

Peet's

they're from San Fransisco

which is practically Seattle

here it is...

Cuppy's Coffee - Greenville SC

What are they trying to do?

@Robusto oh sure, that's stupid too, but benefit of the doubt, writing is harder than reading.

Reading then writing is harder than just reading, but easier than just writing without reading first

That's just plain logic

Typing also seems to be hard

Maybe that's just me

Anonymous

@bertieb Although this is on ELL meta, you might find it relevant: Not so fast! (When should I accept my answer?) by J.R.

bertieb

13:51

@snailboat Thanks!

Robusto

@snailboat: Don't you find the mix of native and Chinese numbering in Japanese to be ... I won't exactly say annoying, but at least an extra dollop of work? I'm not talking about ichi ni san vs. hitotsu futatsu mitsu counting, but the often strange places numbers come up in different forms.

6

Q: Why the mixture of *on* and *kun* readings of numbers?

One thing that always puzzled me was why some terms and names that are based on numbers will mix the on and kun readings. I never really understood the rules for that, but it occurs to me that there must be some. For example, the word yakuza is derived from 8-9-3, a no-score hand in the 花札 (hana...

readings numbers puns

Also interesting: Why SE question titles can't resolve the italics markdown.

I mean, come on, JA and Joel!

RegDwigнt

Certainly you mean "kun on, JA and Joel".

A common typo.

Robusto

A common tipo?

RegDwigнt

I once played a Bach kunon on a Moebius strip in Las Vegas.

Robusto

Don't let @Cerb catch you typing Moebius without a ligature.

RegDwigнt

14:03

But then the police called The Kun for help. The one who spells himself with On.

Robusto

Wut?

RegDwigнt

@Robusto the Moebius strip is the ultimate ligature all by itself. It doesn't give a damn how you spell it.

Robusto

Wrong. Moebius strips have feelings too.

RegDwigнt

J.S. Bach - Crab Canon on a Möbius Strip

►

Moebius is just the German word for *cunt*.
KUNts dON't have feelings.

Qunt erat monstrandum.

Robusto

Sounds like you're in something of a fugue state yourself.

Fugue state

Dissociative fugue, formerly fugue state or psychogenic fugue, is a dissociative disorder and a rare psychiatric disorder characterized by reversible amnesia for personal identity, including the memories, personality, and other identifying characteristics of individuality. The state can last days, months or longer. Dissociative fugue usually involves unplanned travel or wandering, and is sometimes accompanied by the establishment of a new identity. It is a facet of dissociative amnesia, according to the fifth edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5). After recovery...

RegDwigнt

14:11

Fugue you.

Robusto

That's an actual illustration of you smiting your head, I'm fairly certain.

RegDwigнt

Also I'm in Wyoming, which is a different state entirely I'll have you know.

Robusto

I knew you were going to go there.

"Symptoms of a dissociative fugue include mild confusion, and once the fugue ends, possible depression, grief, shame and discomfort." I guess you haven't got to the shame stage yet.

The DSM-IV defines[1] as:

sudden, unexpected travel away from home or one's customary place of work, with inability to recall one's past
confusion about personal identity, or the assumption of a new identity
significant distress or impairment

RegDwigнt

Mild confusion? Why would I even wake up in the morning for that. I'm confused.

Robusto

Wyoming (or Deutschland) would be "travel away from home" ... @RegDwight screen name is evidence of "confusion about one's personal identity, or the assumption of a new identity" ... and the "significant distress or impairment" goes without saying.

RegDwigнt

14:17

Wyominge pumpernickel?

Robusto

I wouldn't go there.

RegDwigнt

Wy o wy?

Robusto

Wyoming has more sheep than people. But then doesn't every place?

RegDwigнt

Nonono, you're thinking of Walesyoming.

Stupid English. You write "Liverpool" but say "Manchester", and you go to Whales but there's only sheep there.

Also, most places actually have more sheeple. And they just won't wake up.

Also also, you forgot to include how Elton John was totally gay.
And still is.

RegDwigнt

14:56

Where the hell did I "announce" that, that people still bump into that link five years later.

I'm kinda scared now.

Feeds

15:34

0

Q: The word for "not well described by statistics"

I used to know this 25-cent word, and I have forgotten it. It describes a phenomenon where common descriptive statistics like mean and variance misrepresent the individuals or maybe the phenomenon itself. (I don't know because I can't look it up!) I believe it begins with an e, probably an en- or...

single-word-requests

MetaEd

17:03

@RegDwigнt My google-fu wasn't up to finding yours. I found a couple of mine.

"english.stackexchange.com" "a" "14073" -site:english.stackexchange.com

MetaEd

17:33

@tchrist Your ouroboros is showing.

Feeds

17:51

1

Q: Is there a word for a person either disinterested or just doesn't partake in gossiping?

I swear there's a word that's essentially the opposite of a gossiper, but can't for the life of me remember what it is. I know there are words for the opposite {ie gossiper, busybody, etc...}, but where are the words for what I'm looking for?

single-word-requests diction

0

Q: When someone says something back to you but doesn't whole-heartedly mean it

I am trying to find the best word that describes when someone says something back to you but doesn't whole-heartedly mean it. For example, if I say, "I love you," and the person says, "I love you too," but doesn't mean it and is only saying it to make me feel better, what is the word for that? I ...

single-word-requests meaning word-choice

Feeds

18:23

0

Q: Is there an adjective for "caused/causable by mutation"?

Some context: I'm currently trying to write a pen&paper RPG rulebook. Characters can have abilities. Some of the abilities can only be "inherited" when creating the character, some can be learned, some can only be achieved via genetic mutation. I'm trying to annotate the abilities with short, de...

single-word-requests adjectives

Feeds

18:40

0

Q: Single word request - describe a research is important

For example, we can say "important research ", "foundational research", "meaningful", "influential", "impactive", or "imperative". But those words are either far too common or too weak. What is a better choice? I remember something like "se***m***ntic".

single-word-requests word-choice word-usage synonyms

RegDwigнt

21:04

@Robusto @Cerberus Alright I'm giving in. I just uploaded a video of myself playing the violin just because you asked me to. Enjoy.

Music Memes Episode 1: How To Sheet Music

►

Feeds

22:04

0

Q: What is the mathematical term for "incarnation," "form," or "version"?

The word escapes me for some reason. Here's a sample (jocose) sentence: "He must have been a capable psychologist in some (???)." Meaning - in a different life, perhaps. I think it's a mathematical term. I may be wrong.

single-word-requests

RegDwigнt

23:01

Happy July 4th, everyone! Even though it might not be available in certain funny countries for another five to eight hours.

Cerberus

23:25

@RegDwigнt Woohoo! I'm clicking alright.

That violin piece was short!

But nice.

Is that background piano music also your playing?

Cerberus

23:40

@RegDwigнt It's Quatorze Juillet, not Quatre.

I did the Revolution just today with one of my pupils.

Cerberus

23:53

OMG Jon Skeet has a millions reps on SO.

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…