English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

tchrist

01:46

Is there a soul here with a clue what this question is trying to ask?

0

Q: Why does has, had, or have validate the use of past participles such as, "taken," "given," etc

What is so special about has, had, or have that past participles can only be used with them? Why don't we say "I taken the test"? Instead, we use the simple past tense "took" and say "I took the test." Why does has, had, or have validate the use of a past participle?

Do we really have to go into Indo-European strong verbs and morphologies? There's no "why" here that I can imagine.

Like why don't we add -en for plural nouns, or why do we have a past tense in the first place?

How in the world do you answer any of this without laying bare the whole expanse of diachronic evolution over thousands of years? And how even then do you answer a "why" with a "because"?

> The have-perfect in English apparently arose as a reanalysis of uses such as I have my work done ‘I have my work in a done or finished condition’ (see sense 7b); the complement done was reinterpreted as part of the verb phrase, a process which was reinforced by a lack of fixed word order and the possible transposition of object and participle, i.e. I have done my work. This development appears to have largely taken place before the written record. Even in early Old English, in the majority of examples with transitive verbs the past participle is not inflected to agree with the object. Des…

Is that what he doesn't understand? Is that "why"?

That doesn't seem enough. It's like he doesn't understand verbs. But he's a native speaker, pretty sure, so I am baffled.

Cerberus

02:08

@tchrist Yes, that is exactly what he seems to want to know.

He does understand how to use the verbs, that is clear.

He just worded his question in a way that people here are allergic to.

@tchrist Yes, why can indicate a cause rather than a reason. That's ordinary English, I should think.

So you should reopen the question and answer it using that quotation.

tchrist

@Cerberus Thanks.

Cerberus

This is the kind of question which, eight years ago, we would have called a seemingly simple or weird question that can actually result in a great answer.

I also feel that you and especially Billy were unnecessarily impolite towards the poster.

Admittedly, his capitals were also LESS THAN CIVIL.

tchrist

@Cerberus Deleted.

You want another job? :)

The OED's entry on have is incredibly voluminous before it even gets to the first sense. You cannot possibly imagine it.

> Use as auxiliary.

The development of the periphrastic constructions with past participle (the antecedents of the modern present and past perfect) to some extent parallels developments in other Germanic and Romance languages, but appears at least partly to reflect development within English (compare note at branch VI.). Although frequently attested in similar contexts to the later present and past perfect, in early use the periphrastic constructions are variants of the simple past tense and their use is not fully grammaticalized. With transitive verbs in Old English, they are sometimes no…

Cerberus

@tchrist I am trying!

tchrist

That's another bit.

Cerberus

02:18

I have edited the question in shape.

tchrist

I'm going to delete the following:

Cerberus

Do you think it could be reopened now?

tchrist

Didn't I do that already?

I'm going to delete that.

But it should help your imagination.

Cerberus

Ah, you did.

@tchrist Yeah, the commonest verbs make for the longest entries in the dictionary.

In addition to some conjunctions.

tchrist

Just look at the Forms alone!

Cerberus

02:21

In an ordinary high-school Greek dictionary, the word hôs will have 10 or 20 pages.

Indeed, verbs have so many forms!

tchrist

I pasted only down to the first couple of lines of the very firstmost sense. It's surely immense.

> In early use this word often translates the superficially similar classical Latin habēre (see habit n.) and its reflex Anglo-Norman and Old French aver (see aver n.). While the Indo-European bases of the Latin and Germanic words are apparently unrelated etymologically, it is likely that there was semantic influence from an early date.

I thought you might find that snippet interesting.

Cerberus

@tchrist I noticed.

@tchrist I vaguely remembered they were unrelated.

But contaminated.

> Traditioneel houdt men deze twee wortels strikt gescheiden, maar suggereert men wel contaminatie van beide in de latere afzonderlijke talen.

tchrist

Cute choice of words.

I've posted a minimal answer along the lines you've suggested. Thank you for your advice and edits.

If you need to go back to that long paste, I didn't delete it from the database, just from public view.

If you were fascinated, I could even mail you a one-time link to the actual entry good for three days' access.

Cerberus

@tchrist Oh?

tchrist

"Contamination"

Cerberus

02:36

Well, it's the same in English!

tchrist

Contact always causes exchange.

Cerberus

@tchrist Excellent!

@tchrist Thanks.

I have the OED on my computer in two versions.

Though it's not the latest edition.

tchrist

I only have v2+smidgen on my own box. The v3 is greatly expanded in some things, not in others.

Last update was March 2015 for have.

Cerberus

Mine has about 5 screens of morphology for have.

tchrist

Cerberus

02:39

You could auto-text-compare the two versions, see what's changed.

tchrist

yeah

There's in disparate formats, so it would take fiddlework.

> OE Blickling Homilies 107 Þonne magon we us God ælmihtigne mildne habban.

I don't know what mildne means there.

Not sure on magon even.

The Lindisfarne Gospels might be older.

> OE (Northumbrian) Lindisf. Gospels: Matt. vi. 24 Habebit : he hæfeð uel he scile habba.

I wonder why vel is set in italic.

Because it's Latin?

Cerberus

@tchrist Alas.

tchrist

It gets a little easier once the years start having four digits to them: Alle þa. Þatt shulenn habbenn blisse.

Cerberus

All ... that should have bliss?

tchrist

They write "?OE" for some of the Middle English like Hi sculen habe þat brad. and Me brekeð þe nute for to habbene þene curnel.

@Cerberus Maybe þa. is they.

I don't know why it has a dot.

And I don't know if it's shall or should. But it feels plural.

Decoding 13th century Spanish is TRIVIAL in comparison to decoding 13th century English.

Even 11th century Spanish, ditto.

I don't mean to say it's easy, and wouldn't be to someone "learning" Spanish. But to a fluent and educated speaker, yes, it is very very simple.

It doesn't feel like truly a different language the way Old and even Middle English both do.

(on phone)

Cerberus

02:58

@tchrist Probably present?

I would rather except a vowel change than a disappearing d.

@tchrist Yes, I suppose they have been civilised for far longer than we!

tchrist

03:10

@Cerberus Interesting observation!

Cerberus

Well, it is true.

tchrist

They weren't occupied by a foreign power with a different language for a thousand years.

Cerberus

The Romans did much of the work.

tchrist

Well, I wasn't counting them.

Cerberus

That, too, but that isn't the cause.

The Germans weren't occupied.

And yet they can't read what their ancestors wrote.

tchrist

03:12

Well, the English were, by the French.

@Cerberus Funny thing that.

Cerberus

It's just that the Romans were civilised, say, 2100 years ago, at which time they established their written language.

And it has been kept alive ever since.

We only established our written language a few hundred years ago.

tchrist

yes

I imagine Shakespeare could read Chaucer.

Even though reading S. isn't hard for us 400 years later, and C. was 200 years before S.

Cerberus

Quite probably!

tchrist

05:42

> Plural fungi Brit. /ˈfʌŋɡʌɪ/, /ˈfʌndʒʌɪ/, /ˈfʌŋɡi/, U.S. /ˈfənˌdʒaɪ/, /ˈfəŋˌɡaɪ/, /ˈfəŋɡi/

Wonder how /ˈfʌŋɡəs/ could have so many possible plural pronunciations.

The ones with /d/ are so weird.

Fund gyrations.

That's how many mushrooms you get to eat a day.

In round numbers.

Feeds

07:56

0

Q: English word for minimal passing performance in examination

In Dutch there is a specialist term used in education, ''cesuur'', to designate the minimal performance that should translate to a passing grade. For example in a multiple choice exam with 40 questions, the ''cesuur'' might be at 27 questions, meaning that you need at least 27 correct answers to ...

single-word-requests

RegDwigнt

09:46

@Cerberus come on even I know that. And I've not been on SO for seven years.

But it was in the site news a couple months ago. In our site news. On ELU. For some reason.

They made like an hour long video of him talking about why he wears trousers with bananas printed on them.

I even started watching it.

Cup Fever

:O

RegDwigнt

So how much has @Robusto left till he has to let people film himself in banana pants?

Only 877k, huh.

Well that's manageable in a week or so.

Cup Fever

not on elu

Matt E. Эллен

easy on EL&U, just answer all the single-word-requests

there are at least 1000K of them

Cup Fever

Answer to all single word requests:

Read the dictionary.

:P

Matt E. Эллен

09:58

I read the dictionary, so now I need a word that means "giant floating orc head that has read the dictionary"

RegDwigнt

@MattE.Эллен easier still, just ask all the single-word-requests.

Matt E. Эллен

Of course!

RegDwigнt

What is word single in english for "football".

Is there any alternatives to "cricket"?

Cup Fever

soccer?

Matt E. Эллен

dying slowly

RegDwigнt

10:05

How to say "snooker" in one word?

@MattE.Эллен no, dying slowly is not an alternative to cricket, that's just cricket.

An alternative to cricket would be dying real fast.

Matt E. Эллен

we're all playing cricket

Cup Fever

@MattE.Эллен 15K actually :P

RegDwigнt

You're a cricket.

Matt E. Эллен

chirp

RegDwigнt

Chirp-Chirp-Chirp-Chirp-and-Dale, ELU rangers.

Matt E. Эллен

10:07

lol

RegDwigнt

11:05

> According to me you should say . I have a friend who could slept anytime whenever he went for a class

This site is full of wonders.

It inspires my imagination.

I'm not even being funny, you can just go to ELU and have your brain tickled in new and exciting ways simply by looking at absolutely anything at all.

Robusto

11:29

@RegDwigнt I wouldn't be caught dead in banana pants.

Saw your video, btw. Seems like you violin better than you piano. Better tonal concept on the fiddle than I expected, btw, kudos to you. Most beginners play it like they're trying to torture your last nerve with it.

@RegDwigнt You misspelled shite.

Gotta get my coffee now. Laterz.

Faheem Mitha

12:12

@Færd I left out the slaves. And the Native Americans were mostly wiped out. Outside the reservations they're basically invisible.

Robusto

@FaheemMitha Not true. You don't see Native Americans in the larger population centers, but if you live in a rural area, especially out west, chances are pretty good. Oklahoma, New Mexico, Montana, Arizona, Idaho, the Dakotas—all have very visible populations and you don't necessarily have to visit a reservation.

Faheem Mitha

@Robusto If you say so. I didn't get around much in the US. Maybe my experience is not representative.

But I lived and worked in universities in different places, and there were no Native Americans.

Different places in the US, I mean.

RegDwigнt

@Robusto I am very confused which part of that is a joke to which extent exactly, so I'll just say thank you. I guess.

22 hours ago, by RegDwigнt

Mild confusion? Why would I even wake up in the morning for that. I'm confused.

@Robusto I'm not a scatologer. Contrary to what my violin playing suggests.

Feeds

13:35

0

Q: Word for the one who always looks as he is smiling but infact not

I wonder if there is term for the one who seems as he is smiling, but in fact he is not in that mood. There was my class fellow, whom I did never see him looking serious. When he failed in exam, (though he was saying he is upset for that) still I found him that while having a slight smile. Is t...

single-word-requests terminology

Feeds

13:51

0

Q: How do you describe, in English, a set of different ethnic groups in one word?

I am from Holland. In Dutch we have the word "Volk" to describe the masses of people formed by a group with genetic, cultural and ideological bonds and similarities. So in Dutch "Volk" originally is the proper noun for "ethnic group". Just as in English where the proper original noun is "Folk" (a...

single-word-requests

RegDwigнt

14:58

De FOEI-3000: Het Siamezen afweersysteem van de toekomst!

►

Dafuq did I just watch @Cerberus.

And how does this keep the Siamese away.

Feeds

0

Q: A word for one who has the ability to sleep almost instantly

I am looking for a word to describe a person that can fall asleep 'as their head hits the pillow'. To add context: my wife falls asleep seconds after she decides that she wants to sleep. Not just in bed, but on the sofa, on the train - almost anywhere where there is a relatively comfortable pla...

single-word-requests nouns

Cerberus

15:30

@RegDwigнt It's a children's project, so...I don't know?

It seems to be a motion sensor that triggers a sound to scare off the cats?

Educ

Hi

here is context: friend give me exercise and I told him that was a piece of cake but after I saw the solution I was wrong and the exercise was so hard. my question what can I say to him, in this case, I would like to say the opposite of ( it's a piece of cake )

tchrist

15:47

@Educ So you initially indicated that it was easy. The opposite of easy is hard. Or difficult. Or here maybe harder than you had initially thought it to be.

Educ

@tchrist Yes, I agree but I would like to Idiom to indicate that was so hard like I did when I thought it was easy

@tchrist Thank you bu the way

tchrist

So you need some famous expression that means the opposite of easy as pie, duck soup, easily done, easily managed, easy as can be, like falling off a log, like shooting fish in a barrel, like stealing candy from a baby, no sweat, simple as ABC. Hm.

Not sure that all of harder than it looks, sticky wicket, tight spot, tough/hard nut to crack, wheels within wheels, can of worms, Gordian knot, dog’s breakfast, hornets nest all necessarily fit the bill.

a real headache, a pain in the butt

> In the Middle Ages, a pie had many ingredients, a pastry but one. Fruit pies began to appear c.1600.

Matt E. Эллен

16:03

before the middle ages a pie only had one ingredient?

I think that's a definition of ingredient that is more nuanced than I'm used to

Educ

17:18

@tchrist Thank you so much

Cerberus

17:43

@MattE.Эллен You're used to pies with zero ingredients?

That sounds like Edwina when she's trying to lose weight again.

RegDwigнt

18:24

@Cerberus oh fuck me that's actually helpful of you.

It's for cats! I never thought of that.

I genuinely thought it was talking about Siamese twins.

Which was very confusing to say the least.

Who refers to cats as "Siamese"? That's not a common shorthand for "cats" at all!

But do you know what it is a common shorthand for? Siamese twins!

@MattE.Эллен yes, an that ingredient was pie. Duh.

@MattE.Эллен that's not nuanced, really. That's kind of the opposite. Calling the whole thing the only ingredient. That's why we call those ages dark. Also because they never figured out how to mount and use a light switch, the plums.

Robusto

18:41

@RegDwigнt It's all good. I figured you were faking the awkward piano playing for purposes of humor. And the few notes you did play on the fiddle did have a vibrant fullness, which is half the battle when it comes to that instrument. So ... dat was no diss.

RegDwigнt

18:53

@Robusto yeah I failed at failing obviously. I tried too hard to not try at all.

Cerberus

@RegDwigнt Probably a Batavism.

RegDwigнt

As to the violin, as you can hear my problem right now is the bow technique really. It's all scratchy and uneven.

It did take me more than one take to get the intonation right, mind you, but then again it also took me more than one take for each of the two unawkward piano sections, the ones where I don't sound like failing. (Which is why I was so confused about what you said, because that's actually me playing those as well.) I did fail at those, repeatedly, and not on purpose. And that's an instrument I've been playing for 32 years. The violin I've only had for 7 months. Things take time.

Though the main reason for me failing at the piano was because I started off in F, and only later realized that fuck me I don't want to be playing in that key on the violin, even if it's just the seven notes. So I had to re-record the piano in D as well.

And the vibrant fullness is all in the instrument really. That's why I bought an expensive one right off the bat. There's two schools to this, obviously. I heard quite a few people argue that if you have a shit instrument, you will try harder to get a good sound out of it, and so once you get a better instrument, you'll sound even better for free.

But I don't subscribe to that. I think the opposite is more important. To get a good instrument off the get-go, so when you sound rubbish you don't have to wonder if it's the violin or the strings or the bow or the hair. No, you know for a fact it's you screwing up. Everything that sounds wrong you can only take up with yourself. You have no excuses to fall back onto. I think that's the much healthier approach.

Hey there's @Ahmet. İyi akşamlar.

(He can't reply right now because he needs 20 reps.)

RegDwigнt

19:15

@Cerberus what's Australia to do with this?

Cerberus

Aus—what?

RegDwigнt

Batavia sank near Australia, I believe, no?

Batavia (schip, 1628)

De Batavia was een Nederlands spiegelretourschip uit de 17e eeuw. Het wrak bevindt zich momenteel in een museum in Fremantle, Australië. Het VOC-schip de Batavia werd tussen 1627 en 1628 op de Peperwerf in Amsterdam gebouwd. In de jaren 1985-1995 is een reconstructie gebouwd die te bezichtigen is op de Bataviawerf te Lelystad. Het schip vertrok voor het eerst op 29 oktober 1628, onder bevel van schipper Adriaen Jakobsz met als reisdoel Batavia. Eigenlijk was de leider van de expeditie opperkoopman François Pelsaert. De schipper was verantwoordelijk voor de goede vaart, maar hij moest wel bevelen...

"Momenteel", lol.

Cerberus

That is one out of 100,000 things names after the Batavi, yes.

RegDwigнt

I remember how stupid and hideous I found the German "momentan". But apparently now I'm so used to it I find "momenteel" stupid and hideous instead. Funny how it works.

Cerberus

It is true! I do find momentan very weird.

RegDwigнt

19:20

Yeah like what the fuck is with the -an.

That's so Ungerman.

Cerberus

Who ever invented that?

Yes.

So we have momentaan - momenteel - momentary.

RegDwigнt

Mo money mo money mo money.

Cerberus

I wonder what French has: momentement?

Spanish momentemundo, of course.

RegDwigнt

The Notorious B.I.G. - "Mo Money Mo Problems" (Uncensored)

►

@Cerberus yeah that sounds right.

Cerberus

French has momentanément.

RegDwigнt

19:22

Oh right.

Cerberus

So there's your inspiration for the German word.

RegDwigнt

I was about to joke how it must have ten more syllables but then couldn't be bothered making it up. Alas, apparently the French took the work off of me and just made it up themselves.

@Cerberus one of my favorite words in Spanish is "ahoritica". @tchrist

It's a lovely word. Very creative.

Cerberus

As Frenchmen like syllables, so Germans like nouns stuck together.

Does it mean, in time?

Weird suffix.

RegDwigнt

"Ahoritica" means just a moment, give me a sec, I'll be with you in no time.

Cerberus

Ah, OK.

So it is a diminutive adverb, of sorts?

From ahora, I presume?

RegDwigнt

19:25

@Cerberus Yeah but that's because it makes stuff shorter, actually. Few people realize that. I think I said that at some point on this very site actually. How the German Kontrollflußgraphvisualisierungssoftware is actually shorter than the English control flow graph visualization software.

Cerberus

Of course.

But people are obsessed with word boundaries.

RegDwigнt

Trump should build some walls around words.

Cerberus

And Dutch is much like German. Except that we would probably add in more praepositional phrases.

Indeed.

RegDwigнt

Watch yourselves. Praepositions is what they love in Romance languages. You don't want de become de one de of de those.

Cerberus

We're in between.

In between Germany, France, and England.

By the way, there is one construction that I find odd and which I have almost never seen in any other language (except Dutch, but it is probably a Germanism): Großstadt.

And similar.

It's so weird to attach an adjective to a noun like that, stripping the ending.

RegDwigнt

19:33

Yeah that's a bureaucratic term really.

Robusto

@RegDwigнt Having a good instrument makes music more fun. I'm sick to death of the argument you hear with singers that vocal technique is more important than a good voice. Bullshit! Life is unfair, and if you have shit pipes all the technique in the world isn't going to make you sound like Pavarotti.

RegDwigнt

But adjectives+nouns happens all the time. In English as well. Blackboard. White House.

Cerberus

But it is a common construction.

RegDwigнt

@Robusto Hear hear.

Cerberus

@RegDwigнt But those are different: blackboard is like a fixed expression, and it is the same as black and board, just attached.

RegDwigнt

19:34

@Cerberus funny how it works. You're stuck in the middle between fifty countries and noöne wants to invade. Poland is stuck in the middle between one country, yet got invaded by absolutely everyone including the Tamil Kings.

Cerberus

But in the German construction, the ending disappears.

@RegDwigнt Well, we have been invaded many times.

RegDwigнt

Not by the Tamil Kings you have not.

And you even put some bases right on their doorstep begging.

Poland never went to Batavia.

Everyone just went to Poland instead.

Cerberus

By the Spanish, the Germans, the French, the Spanish, the French, the Germans.

And before that, by many others.

RegDwigнt

Yeah like the Dutch. Those filthy bastards invaded all of your country.

Cerberus

In 1672, we were even invaded by all those countries together. And they almost got us.

RegDwigнt

19:36

Used to be the Roman Empire, and look at it now. Just cheese and tulips. Pathetic.

Robusto

A cellist I knew in my music days used to play a Testori, in the '70s a $20,000 cello. I went with him when he was looking at a Montagnana (sp?), which was priced an order of magnitude higher. The Testori that sounded so good in his hands suddenly sounded like it had been made out of a cigar box, while the expensive cello would sing at the lightest touch. He kept saying "Is it better? Is it better?" And I'm like, "Ross, just buy the fucking thing. Seriously. Mortgage your future.
Sell your soul if you have to."

RegDwigнt

♪ bloemen uit Amsterdaaaaaaam ♫

NotThatGuy

I can't seem to find a good adjective for someone who's kind to the environment. At the moment I'm leaning towards kind-hearted, virtuous maybe or wholesome, but none of those seem quite right.

Robusto

@NotThatGuy Whatever the opposite of Trump is.

RegDwigнt

@Robusto yeah and people buy $1000 cellos off Amazon. Made out of pressboard.

Robusto

19:39

You get what you pray for.

RegDwigнt

@NotThatGuy mindful.

Considerate.

NotThatGuy

Yeah, mindful sounds better, thanks.

RegDwigнt

A couple moths ago I sat in the music school in the corridor waiting for my lesson, and overheard my teacher talking to the girl that takes her lessons before me. They were discussing how much the teacher's viola cost. And the poor girl was like WTF you could buy a villa for that.

Cerberus

Villa, villiola, what's the difference?

RegDwigнt

And now I notice that "villa" is spelled almost like "viola" in English.

Cerberus

19:44

Gosh, you're fast.

RegDwigнt

The other funny thing is that my teacher is very svelte and also only like 5 feet tall, so when she picks up the viola it looks outright comical. That thing really is the size of a villa.

Well thank you for that, Feed.

Now I have to remember there's still life out there and it all sucks.

Cerberus

Super interesting.

Robusto

@RegDwigнt You wanna hear a kickass violin? Check out this recording:

Beethoven - Violin Concerto in D Major Op. 61 - Arthur Grumiaux - Colin Davis - Concertgebouw

►

Of course, flawless technique doesn't hurt, either.

RegDwigнt

Oh I don't mind if I do.

Is it Hillary Hahn?

Oh, Arthur Grumiaux.

Robusto

> He owned both a Guarneri, the "Rose", made by Giuseppe Guarneri in 1744,[13] and a Stradivarius, the "General Dupont", made in 1727.[14]

RegDwigнt

19:52

@Robusto yeah the thing with the violin is that flawless technique is worth shit if you don't hit the notes. Which you are as likely to not hit after twenty years as you are after twenty minutes.

Which is why you should always record yourself while practicing.

Like, you should do that on any instrument really, but it's utterly crucial for strings.

tchrist

@RegDwigнt ahora, ahorita, ahoritica is a progression of some sort.

RegDwigнt

Because your ear cheats on you and fixes mistakes for you while you're playing. It knows what you want to play, and then just hears that for you.

But when you listen to a recording, it is brutally honest.

Robusto

Yes.

RegDwigнt

Like, it's not much of a problem on a keyboard instrument because it's always in tune. So what the ear fixes is limited to mistakes of articulations, or slips in rhythm.

Robusto

The other thing to remember is that all instruments are substitutes for the human voice, and the closer your tonal concept gets to singing the better you will sound.

@RegDwigнt Well, according to @tchrist it's always out of tune, but ...

He's a mean-tone s.o.b., truth to tell.

RegDwigнt

19:54

@Robusto yeah that's the other thing that took me 20 additional takes yesterday. I started recording and then remembered that my piano was in 439 and my violin was in 443. And I was like fuck, back to square one.

I wonder what my bayan is in, actually.

I know my guitar is like a full third down cuz that's where I sing.

Robusto

@RegDwigнt The secret of the violin is that they always want to tune high. 448 is not unheard in orchestras, which is anathema to winds.

This is why the concertmaster doesn't give the pitch, the oboe does.

RegDwigнt

Fun fact: you play piano for 30 years, you think a third is like whoa that's quite an interval! And then you play the violin and it's like WTF is that, that's just a tone and a half. It's literally the next finger.

Robusto

Well, a minor third is a tone and a half ...

RegDwigнt

Sure, but my point is so many perspective changes in such short time. And there were you thinking you knew everything. But you don't.

Robusto

Nobody does. Ever.

RegDwigнt

19:58

But everybody always thinks they do.

It's not just the ear that's cheating on you. It's all of your brain all of the time.

"You know shit! You're smart!" Well yes, according to yourself you are.

tchrist

@Robusto I hope your minor third isn't 32:27.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…