English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

2:00 AM

tchrist

That is the average price of a GALLON of milk.

Cerberus

tchrist

The price of milk nationally is set to the price it would cost to ship from Wisconsin, even if local.

Maybe.

Cerberus

Either way, bags are just insane.

tchrist

I’m not sure that is still true.

Cerberus

2:01 AM

But hilarious.

KitFox

Minimum price of a quart of lowfat milk is $1.08.

In my state, anyway.

tchrist

We have record-high milk prices right now.

March 15th 2014: Wisconsin dairies capitalizing on record-high milk prices

KitFox

And it's fine for poor folk. It's covered by TANF and WIC.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus It's not the price of the carton that makes the 1L more expensive. It's that they sell smaller quantities at higher prices, like they do with EVERYTHING.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yeah OK, they try to fleece you, as always.

tchrist

2:03 AM

@KitFox True, but I am surprised you know that.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I'm pretty sure the "rich people" who buy 1L cartons are the ones who only need 1L of milk. Anyone who needs 4L of milk will buy bags which are perfectly convenient.

KitFox

@tchrist Why is that?

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Haha, come on.

tchrist

@Cerberus Listen, the less of something you buy, the more it should cost. That is basic economics.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Do stores in your country not charge less for larger quantities?

tchrist

2:04 AM

@KitFox I know it because my aunt is a 5-county WIC director here.

Cerberus

They often do.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus You are talking about something you have never experienced.

Cerberus

Milk is the exception, I guess.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Bags are perfectly convenient.

seriously.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 True.

KitFox

2:05 AM

I think it sounds great.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

What is supposedly so inconvenient about them?

tchrist

Pouring liquids out of a bag?

KitFox

I liked them when I lived there.

The bag is pretty stiff.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@tchrist a bag in a jug. It works perfectly well.

tchrist

I cannot think of any liquid I buy by the bag.

Cerberus

2:05 AM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Well, I already find cutting open a carton a hassle. I have to get my scissors and stuff.

tchrist

@Cerberus WHAT?

Then you are doing it superwrong.

GnomeSlice

My cartons have a twist off cap...

KitFox

You cut open cartons?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus yeah. opening cartons is way more annoying than opening bags.

tchrist

You fold it open and closed!

You never cut!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

2:06 AM

@GnomeSlice yeah, the super-expensive ones have caps now.

tchrist

You guys are all high.

GnomeSlice

I need lactose free, so it's super expensive. =[

It's not even free of lactose, they just put lactase in it

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Well, you have to find scissors, don't you? I don't need any tool to open a carton.

KitFox

@tchrist But why would you think I wouldn't know it?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@tchrist yeah, when it works. Half the time it doesn't work properly.

tchrist

2:06 AM

►

@KitFox Most people don’t realize those programs even exist.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus no. I have a "snip it" which is magnetically attached to the fridge. It's right there, next to the milk.

Cerberus

@tchrist Yes, that is what we have for milk. But not for things like...tomato sauce.

KitFox

@tchrist Well, they don't live in my state.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It's still an extra action.

KitFox

We are extremely poor here.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

2:07 AM

@Cerberus Opening the carton is an action. So is cutting open the bag of milk. Are you going to tell me that one is significantly worse than the other? because that's insane.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It works 100% of the time for me.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes, I am!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus well lad-de fucking da.

KitFox

Didn't you say you cut open cartons?

tchrist

Now, what accent does that gentleman have?

Cerberus

The folding thing is like 2 seconds, literally.

KitFox

2:08 AM

And what's this about tomato sauce?

tchrist

@KitFox They do. I have never heard of such a thing.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I cannot count the number of milk cartons I've used, over the years, where the top didn't open properly, and the top edges get soggy with milk and crusty, and disgusting.

KitFox

@tchrist But then he said he didn't.

tchrist

Never once.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Opening a bag takes literally 10s or less.

KitFox

2:09 AM

I'm really confused.

tchrist

I cannot remember such a thing ever happening.

Cerberus

@KitFox Milk comes in cartons that fold open. Tomato sauce comes in cartons that you have to cut, which is less convenient. So I don't imagine enjoying having to cut milk bags every day.

KitFox

What?

Tomato sauce in cartons?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus It's completely different.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I have seen people who suck at it. It is a sorry sight.

tchrist

2:09 AM

►

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus So now you're claiming that I'm some kind of retard who can't open a carton.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 That's 8 wasted seconds of agony.

tchrist

@Cerberus Since when do you moonlight as driver for the short bus?

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Hey, I have a friend who is equally retarded! I still love her.

tchrist

@Cerberus Next you’re gonna tell me you don’t know how to suck eggs either. I need to speak with your grandmother.

Cerberus

2:11 AM

@tchrist That...is a pretty obscene metaphor.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Well, it speaks volumes that to you, cutting the corner off a bag of milk is as difficult as cutting open a carton of soup.

tchrist

@Cerberus Um, I think you must be thinking of the wrong thing.

Cerberus

@tchrist Hey, I know how to do it. It's just that I have seen people who don't.

tchrist

There is certainly nothing obscene about it.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Well, I am pretty retarded, but I have to admit I've never seen a milk bag.

tchrist

2:12 AM

Aug 11 '12 at 15:37, by Robusto

I don't tailor my speech for the short bus. If you ain't on that loooooong bus, maybe my posts will whooosh right past you.

KitFox

A carton of soup?

tchrist

@KitFox Make mine a shortton. A carton would be too long.

Cerberus

@tchrist Hey, for once we are on the same side in a dispute about domestic habits. Don't spoil it!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox we have those too, for some brands. It's like a juice box, only huger.

KitFox

Sorry, I only have cartons and metric fucktons.

tchrist

2:13 AM

Soup kitchens, sure, but soup cartons?

GnomeSlice

How many assloads is a fuckton?

Cerberus

@GnomeSlice Why don't you try it. No homo.

KitFox

@GnomeSlice 144.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox that's just gross

tchrist

@GnomeSlice How many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie-roll pop?

KitFox

2:14 AM

A gross of assloads is a fuckton.

Wait, no, that's a shitton.

tchrist

@Cerberus Mr Pasteur would not be pleased.

Cerberus

Why not?

Was he anal about things?

tchrist

KitFox

He didn't invent homogenization.

GnomeSlice

@Cerberus ಠ_ಠ

Cerberus

2:15 AM

Haha what the...

@GnomeSlice Yes, you frown.

tchrist

@Cerberus It’s Canadian. All their milk is homo.

GnomeSlice

no u

Cerberus

So it is a French brand "translated" into English?

frowns

KitFox

Not a brand.

Homogenized.

tchrist

homo milk, lait homo

KitFox

2:16 AM

A process.

Cerberus

@KitFox D'oh, that's not what I meant.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@tchrist Well, "homo milk" only refers to the 3.25% M.F. variety.

Cerberus

I would not translate "lait homo" as "homo milk".

tchrist

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 wholmo milk

@Cerberus On doit.

Cerberus

But perhaps someone whose English sucks might, i.e. a French speaker.

GnomeSlice

2:17 AM

'homogenized' wouldn't fit on the bag

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus "homo" means "homogenized". It's not a brand.

Cerberus

So if that is a French brand, they might come up with a weird translation.

GnomeSlice

Also what would the gays buy if they changed it?

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I KNOW THAT

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

It's not translated i nto english.

tchrist

2:17 AM

I don’t see why homo laits would be a problems for the French.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Why wouldn't it be anything other than "homo milk" in English?

Cerberus

By "brand" I mean the guys who design the packaging, the company that makes it.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I have literally no clue what your problem is with that milk bag

GnomeSlice

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 My parents have a white one. :)

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Because "homo" is not normally used to mean "homogenised" in English?

tchrist

2:18 AM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It would be nasty. All run out. What a terrible mess!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Those are snip-its. You put them on the fridge, and you use them to cut the corner off the milk bag.

KitFox

@Cerberus It's all milk, not that brand.

GnomeSlice

they got a square one many years ago though

Cerberus

Or did I miss something?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Well, in Canada, in regards to 3.25% milk, it is. Sorry if that surprises you.

Cerberus

2:19 AM

> 1. (Canadian, informal) homogenized milk

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

That's just. what. it's. called.

Cerberus

OK so it is Canadian.

I had no idea.

KitFox

We established that.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Stop blaming translation errors.

tchrist

I am virtually certain we had homo milk in Wisconsin when I was a kid.

KitFox

2:20 AM

You know what I miss? Quackers.

tchrist

Oats?

Cerberus

But that only supports my hypothesis: perhaps it was people in Québec who began translating French homo as homo in English.

KitFox

@tchrist I think we had it here too.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Milk comes as homo (3.25%), 2%, 1%, or skim (0%).

tchrist

@KitFox But it doesn’t seem to have affected Mr Shiny in the same way. :)

KitFox

2:21 AM

@tchrist No, the duck shaped crackers branded Quackers.

Cerberus

I still think it's gay, but what can you do.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@tchrist I only drink 2%

Cerberus

Fat percentages?

KitFox

What is "French homo"?

tchrist

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 That’s 35% fat.

Whole milk is 4%, which is 46% fat.

Lowfat milk is 1%, which is 20% fat.

Skim milk is 0%, which is 0% fat.

@Cerberus It’s a North American lie.

GnomeSlice

2:24 AM

I am become homo

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@tchrist that's why it tastes so good, then. But You can get cream that goes up to 60% MF. By your percentages it'd be like 200% fat

tchrist

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Did that look linear to you?

GnomeSlice

Are you guys really arguing about fat percentages in milk?

KitFox

Not arguing.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@tchrist Anyway your numbers are calories from fat

not actual fat

tchrist

2:26 AM

Half-and-Half: 12% fat
Light Cream: 20% fat
Light Whipping Cream: 30% fat
Whipping Cream: 35% fat
Heavy Cream and Heavy Whipping Cream: 38% fat

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 But that is all that matters.

The rest is a lie.

Nothing but meat and dairy is allowed to lie that way.

GnomeSlice

tchrist

It is criminal.

KitFox

Fat calories are larger than sugar calories.

tchrist

225%.

KitFox

Anyway. Good night, folks.

Cerberus

2:27 AM

@tchrist Huh, so then what do those percentage refer to?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

1 min ago, by Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@tchrist Anyway your numbers are calories from fat

Cerberus

Hmm.

tchrist

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 duh duh duh

Heavy cream is 5g fat, 1g protein, 1g carbs.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Okay, so your percentages are volume, like mine?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus yes

Cerberus

2:29 AM

OK.

tchrist

Only a liar would call that anything but nearly all fat.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

2% milk is 2% fat by volume.

Cerberus

My milk is 1.5% fat, cream 30%.

tchrist

Which is exactly what you do.

Are you a marketing liar?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@tchrist Well, it's nearly all water.

tchrist

2:30 AM

Heavy cream is at least 85% fat. Do the math.

GnomeSlice

apparently the bags is an Eastern Canada thing

In the west they like jugs.

Huh.

tchrist

It’s 5 parts fat at 9 calories per, plus 1 each of protein and carbs at only 4 per.

Cerberus

@tchrist Well, the calories are mentioned more prominently anyway. So why do I need to know calories from fat as opposed to calories from everything?

tchrist

Hence 85% fat.

They lie because they include the water. Those people should go to jail.

@Cerberus Stop counting water.

GnomeSlice

teehee 'jugs'.

Cerberus

2:31 AM

If you had your way, American prisons would be far more stuffed than they already are!

@GnomeSlice frowns

tchrist

I just want everyone in marketing in jail.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@tchrist food has calories in it. I'm not sure why this is a problem.

GnomeSlice

@Cerberus Haven't we already established I'm the youngest person in the room?

cc @KitFox

tchrist

Because I want every liar’s tongue cut out.

Cerberus

@tchrist That I cannot disagree with, but...

GnomeSlice

2:32 AM

@tchrist They don't do that in jail.

Cerberus

@GnomeSlice Clearly.

@GnomeSlice Then you've gone to the wrong jail.

tchrist

The point is that the meat and dairy industries are granted a special exemption from the law that all other food manufacturers MUST FOLLOW.

They are allowed to lie to people.

Cerberus

A serious question.

tchrist

This is simply evil.

Cerberus

How is it useful for me to know how many calories in my milk are from fat?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

2:34 AM

@tchrist I don't know where you get that idea.

tchrist

Because they paid congress enough money to get an exemption.

Cerberus

If I already know how many calories are in the milk anyway?

I drink the milk, not just the fat.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

2% fat is a perfectly valid description of what quantity of fat is in the product.

tchrist

@Cerberus All other foods that say blah percent fat are required by law to give the percentage of fat calories.

Cerberus

@tchrist That in itself is of course bad, but still.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

2:34 AM

And everything has nutrition labels on it now, breaking down the calories by this and that.

Cerberus

@tchrist I have never seen that here. I wonder why.

tchrist

So cake that is 2% fat is completely different from milk that is 2% fat.

But they say the same thing.

You don’t find this a problem?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@tchrist I have never seen a cake say "2% fat" or any percent

Cerberus

Who ever looks at the fat percentage anyway? People look at the total calories per 100ml.

tchrist

@Cerberus Don’t be silly.

Cerberus

2:35 AM

I am dead serious.

How does it help me to know how many calories there are in the fat only?

GnomeSlice

It's been real you guys.

I gotta go to bed.

Cerberus

I don't eat the fat separately.

Bye!

GnomeSlice

I look forward to further discussion about milk tomorrow.

Cerberus

Yay!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus well, you might be on a fat-restricted diet

tchrist

2:36 AM

> The dairy industry has long gotten away with some of the most dishonest and confusing labeling practices in the entire food industry. All milk, and any product made from milk (cheese, yogurt, sour cream, kefir etc…), labels the fat percentage according to the weight of the fat in the milk, a misleading statistic in a water based food.

—
Per 1 oz serving (these packages all contain 8oz, 8 servings each): whole milk cheese is 100 calories, the reduced fat is 80, the fat-free is 40

2% low-fat milk means that 2% of the weight of the milk is from fat, this is the equivalent of labeling a c…

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Then the amount of fat will be restricted, not the number of calories from fat.

tchrist

Deceptive labeling practices from the dairy industry

It is deceptive.

It is intended to deceive.

My reaction to anybody who intends to deceive me is to spit in his face.

On a good day.

On a bad day, I’ll simply beat the shit out of the lying piece of shit like he deserves.

Cerberus

> A 12 oz bottle of 2% milk is 170 calories, the 6.7 grams of fat in it contribute 60 calories, or 35% of the calories of the milk, nowhere near the 2% that many people assume from the label.

Why would anyone interpret it that way?

It sounds like nonsense to me, sorry.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus See, I never assumed that only 2% of the calories in milk came from fat

tchrist

@Cerberus Because all other foods have to label it the other way!!!!

Cerberus

2:38 AM

I have never, ever seen that.

tchrist

By law.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Nor I. When it says "2% strawberries", I suppose that is by weight, or possibly volume. Never by calories.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@tchrist I can scarcely recall ever seeing any food that labelled its caloric content in percentages, except if they're saying 0%.

Cerberus

@tchrist What is the use of such a law?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

if I remember, I will pay special attention the next time I'm in a grocery store, to see if I can spot any food besides milk that lists a fat percentage

Cerberus

2:40 AM

Either you care about calories in general, or about fat. Or possibly about both. But not about "calories from fat".

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I can understand caring about calories from fat.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It should be on the label on all prepackaged foods.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 But why? Calories are calories.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

But I just don't interpret the 2% of 2% milk as "calories from fat"

@Cerberus percentage? I don't think so

and anyway that's not the same thing

we have nutrition labelling laws

tchrist

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Most people do. Because the dairy lobby wants them to. It’s a scam. Let them go to jail.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Fat percentage by weight or volume? It's compulsory here on all prepackaged foods.

The same for carbohydrates, sugars, saturated fat, etc.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

2:42 AM

@Cerberus really? percentage? we just have total grams.

Cerberus

Per 100 grams total.

So that is the same as percentage.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

our serving sizes are not standardized to 100g

Cerberus

Why not!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

fuck if I know

Cerberus

We usually have both 100g and a suitable serving size.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

2:43 AM

but here's what I wish. I wish they had the breakdown by serving size, but also by convenient portions of the package. So, like, for a bag of chips: just fucking tell me how many calories are in the whole bag.

Because you know people eat the whole bag.

alone. at once.

it happens.

tchrist

The FDA has changed the rules.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Don't make me do decimal-fraction math to try to compute that.

tchrist

> Low fat, reduced fat, skim, 1%, 2%, whole and more — These claims refer to the fat and protein nutrient content reductions that have been made in the dairy products that you purchase.3 In 1998, the FDA changed reduced fat dairy product labeling requirements to reflect the following:
2% — reduced fat or less fat, but not low fat
1% — low fat or little fat
Skim — fat-free, zero-fat, or no-fat

This is because of the problems that these lies were causing.

People were calling 2% milk “lowfat”, which is a lie. It is 35% fat. This is now illegal to claim.

Law changes

> When Nutrition Facts labels came into existence, they were backed by reams of regulations controlling the size of a portion as well as the terms that could be used to describe their nutritional quality. "Lowfat," for instance, could mean only that a portion contained 3 grams of fat or less. "Reduced fat," on the other hand, means that a portion contains one-third fewer fat grams than the original.

Except for milk. Producers successfully argued that shoppers were used to buying 2 percent "lowfat milk" despite its 5 fat grams per 1-cup serving. So that's how it's been labeled up until now.

It has been a constant battle to get them to stop lying.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I agree. The "portions" are often very small.

The table is per 100g.

Those are crisps.

Just finished the bag...

@tchrist There is something to be said for that.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

That is the label on my milk bag. It clearly states the calories and where they're from.

Just like every other packaged food sold.

The milk is not called "lowfat" or anything like that, it's called 2% milk.

2% milk is exactly what the thing is.

tchrist

2:51 AM

It is allowed to be called reduced fat now, but no longer lowfat. Companies were calling it lowfat here.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Anyone who reads "2%" milk and assumes that that number tells them anything about the number of calories in the milk has no idea about anything at all.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Ummm that's daily value?

That would be, you should normally eat an x amount of fat every day, and a cup of this milk contains about 8% of that, right?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus It shows the grams of protein, carbs, fat, the total calories, and the completely useless %dv thing.

@Cerberus yeah I have no idea who uses that information for anything.

Cerberus

But not the percentage of the calories that comes out of the fat!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus My point is that it is labelled identically to every other packaged food.

There is no conspiracy or big lie here.

Cerberus

2:53 AM

OK so...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

At least, not worse than every single food vendor everywhere ever.

Cerberus

It is the same as here, except that our tables are always per 100g, not per serving.

It will only have calories per serving mentioned separately.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I wish this beer I'm drinking had "calories per can" on it.

Cerberus

My beer here has only per 100ml.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

mine has nothing. not a single bit of useful labelling, except the name of the beer, which is handy.

holy crap! it has the ingredients!

I stand corrected.

But per 100ml? do you have teeny-tiny beers? just tell me how much is in the entire can/bottle! jeez

Cerberus

2:59 AM

The bottle is 30cl, it says.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I can't multiply when I've been drinking!

Cerberus

So times 3, not that hard. But I agree, I'd like to also have the amounts per bottle.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

nobody, but nobody, drinks only 1/3 of the bottle.

Cerberus

Hehe.

True.

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…