English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

tchrist

10:00 PM

And it is sometimes hard for Brazilians to understand Portuguese.

That’s because the switch to being a stress-timed language never happened in Brazil.

Mitch

So is Brazilian Portuguese more different from Iberian Portuguese than AmE is from BrE?

tchrist

One distinct feature of Portuguese is that they lost intervocalic instances of letters like n or m or l.

@Mitch Infinitely so.

Mitch

in your intuitive sense of course.

tchrist

They don’t even have the same grammar.

And not just simple stuff.

Mitch

Oh so very much obviously different.

tchrist

10:01 PM

I mean second-vs-third person things.

And clitics.

Mitch

but mutually intelligible, right? oh but you said that.

tchrist

Brazilian in general avoids clitics and replaces them with prepositional phrases much more.

@Mitch Not completely.

A Portuguese speaker will always understand a Brazilian one, but not the other way around. At least, it is not guaranteed.

Mitch

Like AmE and Scottish English?

tchrist

@Mitch That one I might have to think on more.

skullpatrol

That was a very articulate explanation @tchrist thank you.

tchrist

10:04 PM

The reason for the one-way-ness is that the Portuguese speaker is dropping sounds due to the syllable timed thing.

Mitch

@RegDwigнt WJW. Are the girls with the neckerchiefs Komsomol? Lenin Youth? (I'm not sure if those are the right terms for the time period)

tchrist

But the Brazilians are leaving it in.

So the Portuguese hear sounds that for them are silent, and know what letters they mean, so there is no problem.

But the Brazilian hears no sound for a letter than is there but unsaid, so gets confused.

Something like la luna in Spanish becomes a lua in Portuguese.

And so something the Spanish word for forehead, la frente, gets written a frente in Portuguese.

But here's the problem.

(Safari cored.)

As I was saying, the problem is that in Portugal, a frente is pronounced [əˈfɾẽt̪] but in Brazil it is pronounced [ɐˈfrẽntʃi].

Those don’t really sound much alike.

The first has two syllables, but only one stress, so the time it takes it barely more than for one syllable.

The second has three syllables, and they all take the same time to say.

And that Portuguese t at the end might be more like [t̪̚].

That is, it is a dental that may have no audible release.

It certainly doesn’t sound like chee the way the Brazilian one does.

RegDwigнt

10:20 PM

@Mitch the neckerchief is Pioneers. I was a Pioneer myself. And damn me if I can remember how to tie that knot.

Komsomols were the grown-ups.

It went nobody-pioneers-komsomol-Communist Party.

The GDR then had pioneers, too, except their neckerchief was blue.

tchrist

The Spanish word for tranquility is tranquilidad. It is pronounced [t̪ɾãnkiliˈð̪̞äð̪̞] in Spanish. The Portuguese word is tranquilidade, and is pronounced essentially identically to the Spanish verison, since in Portugal the final -e is silent. But the Brazilians pronounce it [t̪ɾãnkiliˈd̪ɑdʒi].

It sounds like dodgy at the end in Brazil. This is considered dodgy by many of us. :)

RegDwigнt

Ernst Thälmann Pioneer Organisation

The Ernst Thälmann Pioneer Organisation, consisting of the Young Pioneers and the Thälmann Pioneers, was a youth organisation of schoolchildren aged 6 to 14, in East Germany. They were named after Ernst Thälmann, the former leader of the Communist Party of Germany who was executed at the Buchenwald concentration camp. The group was a subdivision of the Freie Deutsche Jugend (FDJ, Free German Youth), East Germany's youth movement. It was founded on 13 December 1948 and broke apart in 1989 on German reunification. From the 1960s and 1970s, nearly all schoolchildren between ages 6 and 14 were organised...

The new Wikimedia file browser is hell.

Whoever came up with that thing.

tchrist

Ok, the other shoe has just fallen. It is as I had feared and suspected: Robin Williams had Parkinson’s disease.

RegDwigнt

@tchrist a close friend of mine swears that mainland Porchugao is the best thing since, before, and instead of sliced Lenin.

skullpatrol

@tchrist thanks again for the great summarization :-)

tchrist

10:25 PM

@RegDwigнt Portugau is how the Brazileros say it.

RegDwigнt

He visits every year. I've never visited myself. And it's not a good time to start, what with every single Portuguese being in Baden-Württembert right now.

But they legalized heroin before Colorado legalized weed, so.

tchrist

If you have ever seen someone die of Parkinson’s, and I’m sure Williams had, you would not want to put your family through that.

And I have seen it.

I’m pretty sure I would not want to see it through to the end.

RegDwigнt

@tchrist yeah no thanks but no thanks.

tchrist

Best to have a going-away party though.

@RegDwigнt It’s all awful. There are no good choices.

RegDwigнt

I've recently lost a close friend to a brain tumor, that should be enough for anyone's needs.

tchrist

10:27 PM

My father had no dementia, but the Parkinson’s was terrible, swift and merciless.

RegDwigнt

I will prefer to discuss Funshao any day.

I mean, it has fun right in its name, how cool is that.

tchrist

Funçao?

RegDwigнt

Ayup.

Funchal.

tchrist

k

RegDwigнt

Da capitol.

Of da island.

Of da Purtugao.

tchrist

10:28 PM

Cool.

RegDwigнt

Madeira Airport

Madeira Airport (IATA: FNC, ICAO: LPMA), formerly known as Santa Catarina Airport and informally known as Funchal Airport (IATA: FNC, ICAO: LPFU), is an international airport in the civil parish of Santa Catarina, municipality of Santa Cruz, in the Portuguese archipelago of the Madeira. The airport was once infamous for its short runway which, surrounded by high mountains and the ocean, made it a tricky landing for even the most experienced of pilots. Its innovative solution allowed Funchal to receive the Outstanding Structure Award in 2004, although it is still considered one of the most dangerous...

tchrist

El curaçao me pinta azul.

RegDwigнt

I lived like half a mile away from that thing. It was da awesum.

tchrist

And there is Madeira. Nice wine.

RegDwigнt

In Santa Cruz.

Which of course should be Santa Krush.

tchrist

10:29 PM

I am so fucking celoso.

RegDwigнt

Stop playing the cello, then.

tchrist

Santa Cruz is the patron saint of all men cruising for sex of any sort: women, men, boys, goats, melons.

RegDwigнt

We happened to be there right when all the streets were covered in blossoms.

tchrist

So nice.

Santa Cruz is also the patron saint of the staff that load up Rudolph the Red-Nosed’s sleigh.

RegDwigнt

tchrist

10:32 PM

In Andalucía, the flowers spill out of every window and every courtyard. And the trees are lined with orange trees, which have fruit and blossom all at once.

I bet Madeira was even more floral.

@RegDwigнt Santa Cruz!

RegDwigнt

I've been at an orange garden in Palma. It was heartbreakingly beautiful. And it's not even the 100th best garden in Spain, let alone in the world.

@tchrist flowers everywhere, and nice people in sheepwool hats, and sheep and pinetree smell in summer. Heaven.

Also no beaches except you want to call volcanic rocks that. So no stupid tourists, only smart tourists.

tchrist

I don’t need sandy beaches.

I rather like tidal pools.

RegDwigнt

Sandy Beach is just a porn girl. A dime a dozen. Anyone can have one.

skullpatrol

Why are there so many "zombies" in this room?

RegDwigнt

Because brains.

tchrist

10:40 PM

@RegDwigнt The Spanish have a name for the blossom of the orange tree, one they got from Arabic. It is azahar, which is homophonic with azar meaning chance (think hazard).

It gets used a lot in poetry for describing the heavenly fragrance.

RegDwigнt

I've not read much Spanish poetry beside children's songs.

tchrist

@RegDwigнt You pays yer roubles, you takes yer chances.

skullpatrol

Zombies have brains.

tchrist

Sevilla is the most beautiful city I have ever seen.

RegDwigнt

I'm looking for that picture of a zombie saying "Trains", but I'm only finding rubbish.

Jul 1 at 0:04, by RegDwigнt

Dec 21 '11 at 19:50, by RegDwight Ѭſ道

Dec 22 '11 at 21:20, by RegDwight Ѭſ道

Dec 19 '11 at 13:54, by RegDwight Ѭſ道

WTF is this shit.

tchrist

10:45 PM

The white walls, the red tiled rooves, the streamers of flowers spilling out of every balcony, the orange trees and fragrance everywhere, the stunning atriums full of azulejo and falling water, the gardens of the Alcázar, the Giralda, and a cathedral so great that a patriotic Frenchman upon seeing it wrote a letter confessing that all of Notre Dame could fit in one of its alcoves.

Plus you have flamenco and gitanos and the birthplace of tapas.

Against this must be weighed La Macarena.

@RegDwigнt Vodkins.

RegDwigнt

Jun 6 '12 at 14:02, by RegDwight ΒВBẞ8

I even found a picture of El Hechizado.

tchrist

I knew you could.

RegDwigнt

I just don't know if I should search for jpg or png or gif. No idea. So I'm searching for everything. And finding nothing, consequently.

Mar 1 '12 at 23:08, by RegDwight Ѭſ道

Like, we went to a supermarket and bought a whole lot of stuffs, among them a glass of peas, which I subsequently left at the cashier's desk.

Mar 1 '12 at 23:09, by RegDwight Ѭſ道

So an hour later or so I had to go back and explain the situation and get my peas back.

Mar 1 '12 at 23:09, by RegDwight Ѭſ道

In Spanish.

That is a story from Mallorca right there.

tchrist

You had to piss in a cup?

skullpatrol

Not only are you a number cruncher but you're a built in search engine :)

tchrist

10:51 PM

@Cerberus Invoco te. We need you to us holpen.

That's odd, because the Dutch word hok actually doesn't mean that at all. It can be shed, shack, kennel, coop, closet, cabin, booth, sty, cot. — Mr Lister 2 hours ago

@MrLister Hutch or hovel doesn’t seem too far from cabin or shack, no? I don’t know if the “(slang) credit, debt” is meant to be Dutch slang from some previous era, though. — tchrist 1 min ago

RegDwigнt

I am at a loss. Could be that imgur have since deleted the image.

Too bad!

If I were at work, I could just upload it from my home again.

tchrist

That would only happen if it weren’t accessed, right?

RegDwigнt

Yeah.

For X days.

The transcript is full of deleted messages just because of that.

tchrist

For this God invented daemons.

Mitch

"Kleine weiße Friedenstaube" little white peace-dust.

RegDwigнt

10:52 PM

Even though SE uses a dedicated server, i.imgur or whatever.

tchrist

So why an LRU cache-deletion strategy?

RegDwigнt

Because round-robin is expensive.

@Mitch harhar. That'd be a friedens*s*taube.

tchrist

@Mitch Don’t make me play Zehn kleine Jägermeister atchoo agin buster.

Too late.

10:55 PM

He's merciless.

tchrist

I first saw that when I was younger than you are now, at some German semi-frat-thing in Aachen, rather drunk on their beer.

Or so.

That’s our Ming for you.

skullpatrol

Why does iPhone make everything as small as possible?

user116848

Here we can't upload something from the PC and ping someone at the same time? Because as soon as I write something in the chat box 'upload button' disappears

user116848

And hi

skullpatrol

My hands can't adapt :(

tchrist

11:02 PM

@Arrowfar You can. But sneaky you must be.

user116848

@tchrist Yes How?

RegDwigнt

@tchrist how the hell do you even know the ten little jägerindians.

For what its worth, "for all it is worth" follows the exact same pattern as "for what it is worth". — RegDwigнt ♦ 44 mins ago

What, no love for my fantastic comment? It's the most to-the-pojnt thing on the entire page.

Oh gr8 now I'm having a hiccup. BRB.

tchrist

@RegDwigнt Why wouldn’t I?

user116848

@tchrist Is it from your PC hard drive? How did you ping it? I can only do it with the web photos, videos etc. not my own hard drive stuff

tchrist

@RegDwigнt I lament to report that if you take me for a run-of-the-mill American, you are destined to be eternally disappointed — with the rest of the them.

@Arrowfar I can do as I please, and it pleases me to do so.

user116848

11:10 PM

Would you mind telling me?

user116848

Or you are having fun by not telling :)

tchrist

@Arrowfar I have no “PC”. I have no “hard drive”. I have a computer that has various partitions on it.

user116848

So please tell me

user116848

:D

user116848

Or I should ask @RegDwigнt

tchrist

11:13 PM

I prefer that you should reason it out for yourself. You will like yourself more for it.

user116848

tchrist

Now that you know it is possible, the rest is a piece of fishcake.

user116848

But how can I do it from the hd? Anyone?

user116848

Give me a hint then

tchrist

No fishmonger ever walked on water.

RegDwigнt

11:19 PM

0

Q: "She was not happy." - Ambiguity of the 'to be' in English

I always think about this since in my language (Portuguese) the verb 'to be' has two meanings for which I will give two examples: "She was in the room." - here the verb to be has the meaning of 'estar'. and "She was not a costumer." - here it means 'ser'. But when I think of "She was not happ...

Yeah whatever.

Look up untranslatability.

user116848

I think I got it.

RegDwigнt

@tchrist I will take you for a run-off-the-mill American for 3000 dollars.

tchrist

@RegDwigнt paupérrimo

RegDwigнt

Also I am making scrambled eggs with yesterday's dry parisienne right now so I shall not — repeat: not — be interrupted.

tchrist

11:20 PM

@RegDwigнt I’m afraid I come dearer than that.

RegDwigнt

Also I burnt my tongue earlier today drinking Ceylon tea so now everything tastes like pain.

@tchrist you can pay me more as you see fit.

It's not hard. Try it.

user116848

RegDwigнt

@tchrist because who the hell cares about The Dead Pants?

user116848

Thanks for jogging my memory :D

RegDwigнt

Die Toten Hosen

Die Toten Hosen is a German punk band from Düsseldorf that has been highly successful in Germany since the 1980s. The band's name literally means "The Dead Pants/Trousers". "Tote Hose" is a German expression meaning "nothing going on" or "boring". Their name can figuratively be translated as "The Dead Beats". == History == The current members of Die Toten Hosen are Campino (Andreas Frege), Kuddel (Andreas von Holst), Vom (Stephen Ritchie), Andi (Andreas Meurer) and Breiti (Michael Breitkopf). All members except one are German, though Campino's mother, Jenny, was English. Drummer Vom comes from...

Also I am eating scrambled eggs with yesterday's dry parisienne right now so I shall not — repeat: not — be interrupted.

user116848

11:28 PM

You are right I had to be 'sneaky' :-)

user116848

igmur is the solution here. I didn't know :(

user116848

@tchrist I searched the internet for "No fishmonger ever walked on water" but couldn't find its meaning. What does it mean? I don't understand that "Fish seller can't walk on water??"

user116848

@RegDwigнt How was your eggs?

user116848

So it means that only Jesus could walk on water? We can't

RegDwigнt

@Arrowfar most excellent indeed, good thing you asked.

user116848

11:39 PM

:)

skullpatrol

Sort of

A "monger" is a greedy person

user116848

But fishmonger is different

user116848

Fishmonger

A fishmonger (fishwife for women practitioners - "wife" in this case used in its archaic meaning of "woman") is someone who sells raw fish and seafood. Fishmongers can be wholesalers or retailers, and are trained at selecting and purchasing, handling, gutting, boning, filleting, displaying, merchandising and selling their product. In some countries modern supermarkets are replacing fishmongers who operate in shops or fish markets. == Worshipful Company of Fishmongers == The fishmongers guild, one of the earliest guilds, was established in the City of London by a Royal Charter granted by Edward...

RegDwigнt

@GeorgePompidou seriously though, my grandma was a Finnish baronesse, my aunt is from Chișinău, and my second surname is from somewhere around Nalchik, my great-great-grandmom was able to travel from Podunk to the largest city in Europe without knowing how to read, and I know JSB who knows Larry Wall's daughter. You should be able to work your way from there. Simple.

skullpatrol

A money monger is someone who doesn't want to share their money, right?

user116848

11:43 PM

Yes he is

skullpatrol

So a fish monger doesn't want to share their fish, that makes them greedy

user116848

I see. So it doesn't mean "fish seller"?

skullpatrol

Not on this context.

user116848

May be not here?

user116848

You ever heard this fishmonger saying?

user116848

11:47 PM

Because it is not on the net.

skullpatrol

It makes sense with Jesus walking on water, doesn't it?

user116848

Yes it does.

user116848

Yeah it's clear now

Cerberus

@tchrist He is right about modern Dutch.

The WNT does give "being in a miserable situation" and "prison" as secondary meanings. But not debt or credit.

However, there is hok II, which is an old card game.

> ↪Een verouderd kaartspel, bij hetwelk hij die zekere kaarten opspeelt, het recht heeft deze de waarde te geven welke hij verkiest. Waarschijnlijk van lat. hoc (aanwijz. vnw. onz., dit), als uitroep bij 't uitspelen van zulk eene kaart. Zie HATZF.DARMEST.

Perhaps the game involved some kind of debt or credit?

tchrist

@Luis But this just doesn’t make much sense. It doesn’t require translation between languages to find that there is not a 1:1 mapping of words to meaning. This happens in just one language. Yes, I could teach pointers about how to know how it works with Spanish and Portuguese, but this is not the place for it — at all. — tchrist 6 mins ago

This question appears to be off-topic because it is about Portuguese, not about English. — tchrist 6 mins ago

@SurvMach No, it is not. If it were about English, nobody would care about this difference without a distinction. We in English are perfectly content to allow the polysemic superposition to flourish without any need to collapse the probabilities into concrete, limited meaning. Just because you in Portuguese are not comfortable with that does not make this an English problem. It is a Portuguese problem — and translation is offtopic, — tchrist 1 min ago

I wouldn’t think of being in hock as being in prison, only in debt.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…