English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

@tchrist Yes. In fact I will go so far as say that as soon as he drops below 100, we should be courteous enough to use the room description as a countdown to when he's no longer able to grace us.

nosmoking

that's fair and square

dupe toi-même

George Pompidou

no, it isn't. there's no rule against answering dupes.

tchrist

Rule?

George Pompidou

and don't correct me because I am not wrong.

RegDwigнt

New rule: do not answer dupes.

That was easy.

nosmoking

8:04 PM

dupes are dopes

tchrist

Done.

@GeorgePompidou You are now.

RegDwigнt

:17153683 We are too clumsy. We will gladly follow your step-by-step guide on YouTube.

GnomeSlice

bye bye @GeorgePompidou

RegDwigнt

Oh noes, not ze Mods.

nosmoking

Hey Mad Chemist

George Pompidou

8:06 PM

huh?

RegDwigнt

Well this wasn't fun. You people are cruel. I have to go back to drinking immediately.

tchrist

Azul, azul, te quiero azul.

Negro y azul.

Luna roja.

azul blanco y rojo

8:06 PM

Hijo de la luna izguierda.

tchrist

Y aceitunas en mi alforjas.

RegDwigнt

Es verdad.

nosmoking

@RegDwigнt izquierda*

RegDwigнt

@nosmoking lo cazzo de suor ta.

Frank

29 days. Yowch.

tchrist

8:07 PM

Pero nunca llegaré a Córdoba.

RegDwigнt

Recuerdos de la Alhambra.

►

Everybody must listen to this now.

nosmoking

el sonido de la guitara?

RegDwigнt

That's by the same guy who wrote your stupid Nokia ringtone, just so you know.

And by listen I mean listen. And then tell me that it's not two people playing two guitars.

nosmoking

►

tchrist

Me he fijado en que cada vez que cambiamos a algún idioma ibérico, ni nos contesta nada el Jorge urracón. Puede ser la suerte, lo sé, pero me pregunto si es que hay un poder más alto que está con nosotros en ello?

RegDwigнt

8:10 PM

@nosmoking Too soon. The other video's still running.

@tchrist es cierto.

tchrist

@RegDwigнt Gosh, you just want my eyes to bleed salt.

RegDwigнt

@tchrist which part of listen do you not understand? Be specific.

nosmoking

sorry but it's a crescendo btw

RegDwigнt

OMG it's the Bolero. Well you just made me leave this chat for 17 minutes.

A good number, BTW. Most play it in 15. Some in 13. Oh the horror.

Except by the sound of it they'll be done in 15 mins alright, plus two minutes of applause.

Then again it could be the vodka. Everything seems faster when you're happy.

nosmoking

Pienso que soy hechizado por un malefico poder (el con humo)

tchrist

8:16 PM

@RegDwigнt La lluvia que se cae de los ojos viene del mero hecho de que los hay por aquí que recuerdos de la Alhambra sí los tenemos. Y si no me equivoco, eres tú uno de ellos.

nosmoking

temo la lluvia

RegDwigнt

Yes yes rain something ojos así de Shakira, metro misspelled, hecho-derecho, recuerdos alright, equi -- who you calling a horse?

tchrist

hechicero hechizado

RegDwigнt

And I am by no means uno de ellos, you person you.

Unless it means a good thing.

tchrist

Serás uno de nosotros entonces.

RegDwigнt

8:18 PM

Then I am totally uno and the ellos, too.

nosmoking

desde cuando la lluvia se cae de los ojos y no de los nubes?

RegDwigнt

I am not in a position to parse a language now, much less Spanish.

So speak Brondingnagian, will you.

tchrist

@nosmoking Desde que se tocaran esos Recuerdos.

RegDwigнt

Conozco todas las palabras, successo!

tchrist

Y ellas te conocen a ti.

nosmoking

8:20 PM

exito!

tchrist

exeunt omnes

sine meta

RegDwigнt

Pero Tárrega es la mejor cosa desde'l pan cortado, so much be said.

nosmoking

no me gusta el pan, sino que el arroz

RegDwigнt

I ate rice just Tuesday, now I don't have to eat it again for another week.

nosmoking

you hate it :))

RegDwigнt

8:24 PM

Nah, as a vegetarian I don't have many options.

nosmoking

arroz con especias es delicioso

RegDwigнt

It's been 12:50 and these guys are still not in E major.

tchrist

¿Cuáles especias?

RegDwigнt

I think it was E major, was it?

tchrist

@RegDwigнt You. Have. No. Idea. How. Much. Fucking. Rice. I. Get. Stuck. With. Eating.

nosmoking

8:25 PM

@tchrist curry, cúrcuma

RegDwigнt

> Kurz vor Ende des Stückes wechselt die Tonart unvermittelt nach E-Dur, um nach nur acht Takten wieder nach C-Dur zurückzukehren. Sechs Takte vor Schluss treten Basstrommel, Becken und Tamtam erstmals dazu, die Posaunen spielen laute Glissandi, und das ganze Orchester übernimmt den Grundrhythmus des Stücks. Den Schluss bildet ein dissonanter Akkord, der sich nach C-Dur auflöst.

nosmoking

columbo

RegDwigнt

So I was right. What surprise.

tchrist

@nosmoking ¿ . . . sino que el arroz hace qué cosa?

@RegDwigнt We had stuks with Cerb last night. He buys stuks of eggs. Very odd.

RegDwigнt

@nosmoking that's the best thing since sliced Tárrega, I'll give you that.

nosmoking

8:26 PM

@tchrist solo arroz con estas especias, para apreciarlos

tchrist

By the decen instead of by the dozen, no less.

RegDwigнt

> At the climax, the first theme is repeated a ninth time, then the second theme takes over and breaks briefly into a new tune in E major before finally returning to the tonic key of C major.

English Wikipedia is nowhere as excited.

tchrist

Why did Recordee comes up as a question right as we were discussing Recuerdos?

bbl

RegDwigнt

It came up for me like twenty minutes ago.

Literally before the Bolero.

And them's in E major right now.

Done after 17:02, chapeau.

nosmoking

tengo que irme a dormir, es la hora, es el medicamente tambien que me descansa

RegDwigнt

8:30 PM

The way I remember it, Ravel said "I wrote good music once, too bad it was without any music".

nosmoking

a beautiful marvellous crescendo

RegDwigнt

> In a newspaper interview with The Daily Telegraph in July 1931 he spoke about the work as follows: "Before its first performance, I issued a warning to the effect that what I had written was a piece lasting seventeen minutes and consisting wholly of 'orchestral tissue without music'".

Close enough.

Nota bene: nobody has jumped on the bandwagon. Still one-of-a-kind a hundred years later.

When I was a child, I used to watch a video to the Bolero, where the whole 17 minutes they were going up an endless staircase from left to right, with continuously new stuff happening along the way. It was excellent, and outright groundbreaking for that time, with no cuts, a continuous 17-min pan along the stairway.

I don't seem to be able to find it now.

I somehow think it was produced by Czechs or Poles or something.

Oh yeah, I think I found it, seems to be called "Stairway to Lenin", but YouTube only has a one-minute fragment.

Oh yeah, Vimeo to the rescue!

vimeo.com/94524033

nosmoking

►

RegDwigнt

I am off. I think even if my judgment is clouded by my childhood memories, it is certainly worth one watch.

nosmoking

yep

RegDwigнt

8:41 PM

@nosmoking haha, right, I shoulda searched in Spanish.

tchrist

8:54 PM

@RegDwigнt Came up earlier for me as well, but I was chattering about other stuffs.

@nosmoking That’s um somewhat confuddled. But I think I gist ye.

RegDwigнt

Wow. Just wow. Just the effort that went into this. Wow.

tchrist

@Reg I thought you had gone to the Alhambra. I knew you and your wife holidaid in Spain once or thrice.

RegDwigнt

And the original PAL resolution. The best we had back then. As good as it gets.

So many memories.

@tchrist never been to the Arabic parts, actually.

And with my wife it's been but one time. Mallorca.

tchrist

That might even better than the Stairway to Gilligan’s Island.

@RegDwigнt El Andaluz is remarkable.

RegDwigнt

All I have of the Alhambra is a postcard from a then-close friend who'd been there with her family.

tchrist

8:57 PM

But Madrid and Barcelona and all the other bits are great, too. Just not like Andalucía.

Everyone should see Granada and Sevilla — y Córdoba “lejana y sola”.

RegDwigнt

Barcelona I've been. Or more like travelled through. And I was too young to remember anything.

tchrist

Holy Toledo is something else, too.

skullpatrol

What motivates them to run with the bulls?

RegDwigнt

@tchrist I will readily and willingly believe that.

tchrist

So you were in Cataluña. It’s a whole nother country.

Or so they would have it.

@skullpatrol You want the short story or the long story?

Note that the short story is tchrist-short.

skullpatrol

9:00 PM

Short please

RegDwigнt

I can only really vow for Salou. And yeah, Mallorca as it was just a couple years ago. But the rest is too clouded. A wiki article feels more present than all of the memories combined.

Salou

Salou es un municipio español de 26 650 habitantes (INE 2009) situado en la Costa Dorada, provincia de Tarragona, Cataluña, a 10 km de la ciudad de Tarragona y a 9 de la ciudad de Reus, y colindante con los núcleos urbanos de Cambrils, Vilaseca y la Pineda. Es considerada la capital de la Costa Dorada, al ser el destino turístico más importante. Fundada por los griegos el siglo VI a. C., la ciudad constituyó un destacado puerto comercial durante la Edad Media y la Edad Moderna. A lo largo del siglo XX, Salou se convirtió en un importante centro turístico, condición que mantiene en la actualidad...

tchrist

The Islas Baleares are somethin’.

RegDwigнt

Better than their reputation.

So much better.

But it takes will.

tchrist

@skullpatrol The short story is that bulls have always been special that aways, and the exact origins are shrouded by the impenetrable mists of temps perdu. But it is not 100% touristical in origin.

@RegDwigнt I knew a lad from Ibiza when I went to Madison. He said you had to really spend time there to get a feel for it that wasn’t just silly stuff that a three-hour tour would give you.

@skullpatrol The many kingdoms of Spain each have their own special festivals, each city its own patron saint and more. Some of these are famous around the world, but most are not. This one gained global prominence.

But just as occurs during Semana Santa en Sevilla, these things are done not for the tourists but for themselves.

RegDwigнt

Lying on the beach in a concrete tourist desert will get you nothing, but then again it will get you nothing anywhere. But even just taking a bus to Palma just one time will open your eyes.

tchrist

9:05 PM

Such a lovely name, Palma.

Jasper Loy

My one line answer got 19 votes, woo!

tchrist

Barcelona is astounding.

Did you take the trains?

skullpatrol

Not vice versa?

RegDwigнt

@tchrist Nope. Friends have, and I've seen the photos.

tchrist

@skullpatrol That’s right.

There are awesome train trips through the sierra that are quite breathtaking.

RegDwigнt

9:07 PM

So I'm getting a notification for "products line" right now. You not getting it?

tchrist

I’ve only been to the Catalan beaches in Barcelona proper and in outlying Sitges, which is like 175 cents or so by regional transport to get to.

I see it.

RegDwigнt

Last time around you seemed to be minutes behind.

tchrist

No, it was there.

I just commented late because I wanted to comment on it before I ran my errand.

Cataluña can be hard for tourists.

Because a lot of stuff is only in Catalan alone, and how many tourists speak Catalan?

RegDwigнt

I am not drunk enough for being drunk. Also I didn't write down my stats for today. So AFKish.

tchrist

Stats for today?

You have to write down stats?

Very well. Baia.

= vaya + bye-a-dude

skullpatrol

9:10 PM

He's a number cruncher.

tchrist

@skullpatrol Spain feels older than Britain in most places. It’s hard to explain.

I know there is nothing to that, just a silliness, but it is still there.

Of course, there are many ancient places in Britain as well, but they are relics, not living pockets of ancient culture held over long past their expected TTL.

Wales and Scotland have ancient places, too.

Basically, you have to look past the Norman invasion and the Germanic invasions in Britain before you start seeing the ancient things. Oh, and the Roman invasion perhaps too.

Plus don’t forget the Danelaw.

In Cornwall and Wales and up in the top and islands of Scotland you can find ancient things from before much writing happened.

There is a sense of place to some of those places.

In Iberia, you get a sense of place again and again, and it was again and again a different place altogether.

The layers of history are long and deep.

skullpatrol

Why are Spain and Portugal separate?

tchrist

Sigh.

I know too many answers.

Because the Pope said so.

Because Philip had three rebellions at the same time, and he didn’t have the forces to quell them all, so he kept the Netherlands and Cataluña and let Portugal go.

Because he was too German for his own good.

So wanted to retain the Hapsburg possessions in the Netherlands.

But that ultimately failed, or Cerb would be speaking Spanish rather better than he does now. That or he would roll his r’s like the next Flem.

During the Roman times, Spain was Iberia, and there was not really a distinction between what we now call Spain and what we now call Portugal.

But then the Empire fell.

Only the Church remained.

Then the Germans invaded Iberia/Spain, and many little kingdoms sprang up, mostly around bishoprics at some level. But then that Moslem Prophet started his big dealio, and everything fell.

Or almost everything.

Asturias at the very top was never conquered, and the top of what we now call Galicia. Plus Charlemagne stopped the Moor at Roncevalles, or so the legends tell us.

So for seven centuries, Spain was recovered slowly, like a window-shade rolling down from the top.

For a while there was a Caliphate in Córdoba.

Then there were many little taifa states.

A mixed feudal system developed, and sometime the same baron would fight this war for a Christian king and that war for a Moorish one.

Portugal, which had been Lusitania and Gallaecia under the Romans, became a county.

The Count of Portugal owed fealty to the King of León.

Note that León is named not for a lion but derives from the Roman legion stationed there.

skullpatrol

9:27 PM

Orly? Interesting

tchrist

It was really very complicated during this time.

There was supposedly a papal bull granting the Count of Portugal his own kingdom separate from León.

This may have been a myth.

All these places where separate kingdoms, with complex feudal obligations.

“Spain” meant the entire peninsula, and it was never a unified nation-state as we know it today until the 16th century.

So Portugal was always part of that place.

Portugal and Cataluña were the rich, seafaring kingdoms of Spain.

Castile was the poor north-central part.

skullpatrol

Ok, it's starting to make sense now.

tchrist

There were mergers and acquisitions, combined kingdoms united by personal union of married co-monarchs.

Galicia and Asturias were there own kingdoms, as was Aragon and León and various places overlapping into modern-day France.

There were a bunch others, too.

The big thing that changed it all was Columbus.

Because he provided a route for Castile to become wealthy.

Before this, only Portugal and Cataluña were wealthy kingdoms.

Once Castile became wealthy, it started to want to have the whole thing.

Andrew Leach

@tchrist But Portugal is the UK's oldest treaty-partner, from the 14th century. Presumably it had separated sufficiently to do that by then.

tchrist

Although the personal union of the Queen of Castile and León (and Galicia and Asturias) marrying the much more respected King of the Crown of Aragon (and Cataluña and Navarra and much more) is when they finally started to think about the entire peninsula. That’s why in 1492 they kicked out all the Jews and all the Moors.

@AndrewLeach Portugal was separate from León for many centuries by then.

But it reunited not long after that.

Due to the War of the Portuguese Succession.

And it was held for three Philips.

Yes, the alliance between England and Portugal as seafaring nations is very old and very important, and in some sense was a counter to the Auld Alliance between the kingdoms of Scotland and Navarre (well, and France, but I was having the tail wag the dog).

Andrew Leach

9:40 PM

The Iberian peninsula makes the British Isles' history over the last 1400 years sound positively lethargic

tchrist

Yes, exactly. Very very very much so.

Just read the history of Portugal alone and your head will spin.

And it got worse.

Bonaparte.

He caused the Portuguese Inversion.

Andrew Leach

Spits

tchrist

The Portuguese Empire was ruled from Brazil because Bonaparte displaced the royal family in Portugal.

So for a while there, Brazil was the capital of Portugal.

Not Lisbon.

By the way, the reason that Standard Portuguese lacks a "th" phoneme but Standard Spanish has it is because the th/s split was horizontal across Iberia, with Toledo and later Madrid falling above the line but Lisbon falling below it.

skullpatrol

What's the major difference between their languages?

This^ was my real question };-)

Mitch

@skullpatrol The closest language to Portuguese is Spanish, but they're not mutually intelligible.

Tchrist, is it easier for Spanish people to learn Portuguese or the other way around? Also, when reading are they closer to each other than Spanish to Catalan?

tchrist

9:50 PM

@skullpatrol Wah.

skullpatrol

Thanks for that great history lesson @tchrist

tchrist

“The” major difference is in phonology.

As far as grammar and lexicons go, they are extremely close but still distinct.

94% of the lexicon is cognate, in that it has a common ancestor.

The tense structure is essentially the same, although Portuguese retains a simple future subjunctive that modern Spanish no longer uses; it has a "thee/thou" feel in Spanish.

However, the periphrastic tenses are a bit different.

And you still have mesoclictics in Portuguese, something else it shared with Old Spanish but not New.

You have the same 7% Arabic lexicon.

But modern Portuguese has become more stress-timed, whereas Spanish remains basically syllable-timed. That means you have vowel reduction in Portuguese, something that you will be used to from English.

Spanish does not have that.

Note that when I say “Spanish”, I am talking about the language that Englishmen call Spanish. It is the language of Castile, not of Asturias or Aragon or Navarra or Cataluña or Aquitania or Gascony or Valencia.

And when I say “Portuguese”, I mean the dialect of Galego-Portuguese spoken in Portugal proper, not the dialect of it spoken in Galicia.

When talking about Iberian languages, one usually says Castilian not Spanish.

So Castilian and Catalan and Asturian and Portuguese are all Spanish languages — for a very old sense of Spanish.

And there are many more.

skullpatrol

Does Brazil have their own dialects? :-)

tchrist

The things that confuse Anglophones about Spanish also confuse them about Portuguese.

@skullpatrol Only if you append the letter s to that sentence.

Yes, there are many Brazilian dialects.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…