English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Can I just declare that I dont care what happened with the disgusting stuff in the Bible because it doesnt necessarily affirm nor discount a Christian's faith in anyway.

@Mitch The laws are pretty boring, book of Acts is by far the most interesting

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Dude. Really. That is kind of a big deal.

Zoe

6:07 PM

@Mitch Why do we care about what happened with David and the foreskin lol

its no big deal

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe really? The fact that God orders his people to commit genocide many times doesn't affirm nor discount a Christian's faith?

Jez

damn, how long do i have to load back the scrollbuffer before i get to the start of this conversation? continues

Robusto

Anybody knows if SO rolled their own chat or acquired it from somewhere?

Jez

probably rolled their own

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Robusto their own.

@Zoe biblegateway.com/passage/…

Robusto

6:09 PM

That's what I thought.

Anybody know a good chat back end?

Mitch

@Zoe I think it is @KitFox's point that how do you know what to care about then? So you don't care for foreskins, but you do care about not eating pork (for example). How do initiates know what to care about, especially when everybody says the whole book is true? Why not just say, some of it is weird, and the parts we like are the parts we like?

Zoe

Well, the Christian would tell you the reason for that 1) Either big sin like slavery or rape or abuse from that place 2) God being sovereign and preparing the righteous for a bigger picture

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

You don't care that the Bible says that David killed 200 Philistines and mutilated their bodies so that he could bring 200 foreskins to King Saul (Saul had only demanded 100), and that the Bible says this is proof that the LORD was "with David"?

Mitch

@Jez It all started with you, and how to pick up chicks on OKCupid. It necessarily found its root in biblical exegesis.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe rape's not a big sin, in the bible. There's lots of rape. God never says "don't rape"

Mitch

6:11 PM

Obviously.

Zoe

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I guess that was what it takes to be a human king

Jez

looks like it started here

2 hours ago, by Jasper Loy

@Zoe So you are non-Christian but trying to become one? That sounds complicated

Zoe

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I think if you love your neighbours as yourself, u wouldnt hurt them in anyway like raping them.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 This is a family room!! Gross.

Jez

2+ hours ago lol

Zoe

6:12 PM

@Jez it did start there

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I'm pretty sure he's thinking it.

@Cerberus Yeah. Wait... is farting OK?

Robusto

@Mitch On the Internet, nobody knows you farted.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe Deuteronomy 22: 28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

Jasper Loy

@Robusto They know when I fart, because I tell them

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

In the Bible, rape is seen as a crime against the girl's father, because she is his property and has been defiled.

Robusto

6:15 PM

Not everybody is a Chatty Cathy® like you, Jasper.

Jasper Loy

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 This law is disgusting

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Anyway. I've said enough about the topic. Zoe, I urge you to read more dissenting views on Christianity. Avoid magical thinking.

@JasperLoy It's God's law, who are you to judge?

Mitch

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 At least he's taking responsibility.

Jasper Loy

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Many laws here are equally disgusting, lol

Zoe

25 But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die.

26 But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:

27 For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her.

28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

Read the verse in context, it says the rapist will die.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I dont think magically and i keep telling u i discern whatever i am taught.

KitFox

6:18 PM

@Robusto heheheheh

Jasper Loy

@Zoe No, there are two different situations, Mr Shiny is right

Robusto

@Zoe Everybody dies. Apparently this guy gets to live, for "he may not put her away all his days."

Zoe

Why does that version have rape in verse 28

when rape should be in 25

Jasper Loy

@Zoe One is betrothed, one is not, lol

Zoe

Oh yea, I also dont trust copyist versions that is not KJV

i dont read verse 28 in KJV as rape situation

Jasper Loy

6:19 PM

And why should you even trust KJV?

Zoe

But in 25, it says explicitly force and that the manwho force the woman will die

Robusto

Genesis 19:8: "Behold, I have two daughters who have not known any man. Let me bring them out to you, and do to them as you please. Only do nothing to these men, for they have come under the shelter of my roof."

Zoe

i guess because people died for the hebrew bible to be translated into kjv

Robusto

Lot gave his daughters to the crowd. Because they were his property, and the men were his guests.

Zoe

while others only copy?

KitFox

6:20 PM

In 25, she'd already been paid for.

Zoe

@KitFox and only belongs to the man who married her. But the one who forced her, who did not marry her, will die.

KitFox

Right, because it threatens her husband's virility.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe It says if the woman already belongs to another man, and someone rapes her, then the rapist should die. But if she still belongs to her father (and is a virgin), then if he rapes her, he gets to keep her.

KitFox

And he paid for her to bear his children and not some rapist's.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

It's a property crime

@Zoe believing in miracles is magical thinking.

Zoe

6:22 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 But I dont read verse 28 in the kjv as rape

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Magic and miracles are different

Robusto

@Zoe How do you read Genesis 19:8?

Jasper Loy

I read it with my eyes, lol

Jez

@Robusto what about the guy who put his concubine outside to a baying mob, came outside the next morning to find her dead, cut her into pieces, and sent them to various towns to cause those towns to attack the people who'd killed the concubine?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Anyway I'll say no more on this topic.

Jez

good clean family reading

Zoe

6:23 PM

@Robusto That's Lot, not God.

KitFox

"Laying hold of her" was her fault for showing her wrist.

Robusto

@Zoe Oh, come on. God spared Lot. As you well know. So God is at least complicit in the crime.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe Lot was the only good man in the entire place. He was the only one spared when God destroyed the whole city.

Zoe

Well, I dont like Lot. I always think God spared Him only because of Abraham

Anyway, the two men who were his guest were angels

Robusto

So you don't approve of God's judgment?

KitFox

6:25 PM

Angels are more important than defenseless young women.

Zoe

I don't approve of many things about or not about God

KitFox

Because soldiers of God need extra protection from mobs.

Zoe

They dont

KitFox

Oh.

Zoe

but Lot doesnt know that

Robusto

6:26 PM

@Zoe So none of this causes you any cognitive dissonance?

KitFox

Then why did God prefer to have young women get raped?

Jasper Loy

We have been talking for over 9000 hours about this topic, lol

KitFox

@Zoe Shouldn't the angels have known that?

Zoe

@Robusto I believe it happened, I dont understand why nor do I approve some of what happened.

KitFox

I mean, angels are divine messengers, there for carrying out God's will.

Robusto

6:27 PM

And if they were angels, what harm could a crowd of men do to them anyway?

KitFox

They might have mentioned to Lot that he wasn't doing it right.

Zoe

@KitFox The angels made all them blind so Lot didnt have to actually give his girls.

@KitFox which is why the angels pulled Lot in and made the crowd go blind?

Robusto

Good night. It just never ends.

KitFox

Oh. So they told Lot not to let his daughters get raped?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe I'm sorry. They were not his to give. They were their own people, and you do not give away people.

Jasper Loy

6:28 PM

@Robusto I believe it is still day time there, lol

Zoe

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Lot obviously doesnt think that way.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe God doesn't think that way either. Women are Man's property in the Bible.

Zoe

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Women aren't. Man thinks so, though.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Multiple times in the OT GOD orders the Israelites to rape.

@Zoe You need to re-read the bible.

It's very clear.

Zoe

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Which verse?

KitFox

6:31 PM

Genesis 3:16

> To the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you."

Jasper Loy

Just for eating a fruit? That is an abusive father.

KitFox

I agree.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe religioustolerance.org/ofe_bibl.htm

Zoe

I actually asked a verse about the rape one but yea husbands rule over wife.

Mitch

@KitFox Whoa dude! Really? Christianity is a lot more female friendly than others.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

6:34 PM

@JasperLoy An abusive father who is all-powerful and all-knowing, so therefore he knew that by putting the fruit there they'd eat it, and he knew he'd punish them.

KitFox

@Zoe Yeah, but no.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe I already provided a rape verse. oh, you want an israelite army rape one? one sec.

KitFox

> 1 Corinthians 11:3 But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Jasper Loy

I think that many people become Christians because they are afraid of going to hell, and also they need something to depend on

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

> Deuteronomy 21:10-13 describes how a soldier can force a woman captive to marry him without regard for her wishes. "When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and …

Mitch

6:35 PM

@Jez It was obviously the girl's fault.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe There are NT verses that back this up too. even in the NT a woman was a man's property, either her father's, or her husband's.

Zoe

This verses asserts that I don't approve of many things

Jasper Loy

@Zoe Did you grow up here or move here?

Zoe

@JasperLoy I grew up in SG

Even I dont really like the evangelist sometimes

KitFox

“Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or have authority over men; she is to keep silent." 1 Timothy 2:11-12

Jasper Loy

6:42 PM

Just one verse is enough to discredit the whole bible, if the bible were taken as the word of the perfect god

KitFox

You probably don't keep silent in church either.

Zoe

Everybody keeps silent in church except for the pastor

Jasper Loy

But I believe the bible is not the word of god but the word of stupid men

Johan Larsson

@KitFox chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/95?m=15720147#15720147

Zoe

Yea, I dont approve of the teachings of that verse either

Johan Larsson

6:43 PM

for my vote in the EU thing

Jasper Loy

I believe this being you call god exists but does not really interfere much with human life and does not care if man writes stories about him, true or untrue

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

Take my ~~wife~~ cervix, please.

Jasper Loy

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 wtf

KitFox

@JohanLarsson ... OK.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@JasperLoy it hurts and I don't need it.

Johan Larsson

6:44 PM

@KitFox Why so dotty?

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 ty for the link

KitFox

> Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church. 1 Corinthians 14:34-35

Jasper Loy

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 Really? Have you taken painkillers?

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@JohanLarsson you're welcome!

@JasperLoy sometimes.

Thinking about taking some today.

KitFox

@JohanLarsson I'm not sure why you're sharing this with me.

Jasper Loy

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 May I ask why it hurts? Is it normal?

Johan Larsson

6:45 PM

@KitFox oh me neither now that I think about it :)

Jasper Loy

@JohanLarsson lol

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@JasperLoy It's normal for it to hurt around and during That Time. When a woman says her back hurts during That Time, what really hurts is her cervix.

Jasper Loy

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 OMG! I did not know it hurts so much

I guess it's good to be a male, nothing hurts

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@JasperLoy I got an IUD a couple months ago, and they have to pry the cervix open to place it.

They don't tell you that.

Zoe

@JasperLoy Nope, He doesn't interfere with us. He does care but He also cannot trespass His own law of freewill. Whatever is written, it may be inspired by the Holy Spirit, it mah not, no one can know for sure unless one can time travel. However, I believe He will correct through the believer's lives, whatever is wrong in the written Word.

KitFox

6:47 PM

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 Ouch.

Jasper Loy

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 Maybe that is why it hurts more now

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@JasperLoy I don't doubt it.

KitFox

Ice pack on your bits?

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@KitFox I like to think I know what childbirth feels like to some degree.

Jasper Loy

I find it very amusing that I have never dated and I am still a virgin, lol

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

6:48 PM

I've heard they dilate it to 10cm.

KitFox

You probably know what afterpains feel like.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

Like in babytime.

KitFox

Speaking of things they don't tell you.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

:(

KitFox

You have more physical prep in childbirth.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

6:48 PM

I'm getting too old for the pill, and they won't tie my tubes, so here we are.

KitFox

Endorphins, that thing that makes you stretchy, etc.

Jasper Loy

I cannot imagine that expanding to make room for the baby's head, it must be very painful

KitFox

It's not bad.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

Maybe the canal isn't so bad.

Jasper Loy

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 Too old? I did not know there is an age limit

KitFox

6:49 PM

Actually, if that's God's punishment, I'm laughing at him right now.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

But like, the solenoid valve? With tongs and no biological warning?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe Except it says in Exodus that he trespasses his own Free Will law.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@JasperLoy it becomes more dangerous. Blood clots are more likely.

Jasper Loy

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 Erm, just ask him to wear something, lol

KitFox

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 Yeah, going in cold has got to be unpleasant.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

6:50 PM

@JasperLoy Those are way less effective than I would like.

Jasper Loy

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 OK, I would not know because I never tried, lol

Zoe

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 You mean Pharoah?

KitFox

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 Foam and pull-out-and-pray?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe yes.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@KitFox :x

Ima go get those ibuprofens.

Jasper Loy

6:51 PM

Pulling out is not safe, lol

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

But I said I'll say no more. I should stick to that.

Zoe

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Throughtout the Bible, God hardens the heart of many people, whether or not it states God is the one who did it. Then again, you'd have to define what does harden mean.

Mitch

@KitFox Paul was very uptight. Also, not Jesus.

Jasper Loy

Wow, I said so many lols today

Mitch

@KitFox Gah! Fine! Convinced!

But...

OK fine.

KitFox

6:52 PM

Hahaha.

Now you're going to hell for believing.

Zoe

If God wants, He could literally change every translation of the Bible to the correct meaning.

KitFox

But he doesn't want, because he'd rather threaten and cajole.

Jasper Loy

@Zoe But he does not even care about that, because he does not care about us

Mitch

@JasperLoy It's not a mathematical proof for God's sake! Why does everyone have to take literally so literally?

Zoe

But then people would say, "oh wow your God alters the truth when He sees fit. I think arguments against God are endless, no matter which way God takes.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

6:53 PM

@Zoe Well, in Exodus, I think it's clear that he changes the pharaoh's mind. If that isn't interfering with his "free will", then nothing is.

KitFox

Hahaha

Jasper Loy

@Zoe They are endless, so maybe you should not be Christian

Zoe

@JasperLoy He does care but He would rather have a permission than force Himself into a non-believer's life.

KitFox

How would they know that God alters the truth unless he did a shitty job of it?

Jasper Loy

@Zoe I am pretty sure he doesn't care about me, I have been through too much suffering

KitFox

6:54 PM

Permission. scoffs

Zoe

@JasperLoy I am not a christian but I would like to make that decision to leave or stay by myself. But the teachings I got from the church are good, still.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe And yet, the techniques used by most religions are exactly identical to the brainwashing techniques used by cults. If that's not forcing, what is?

Jasper Loy

@Zoe I can get the good things without religion.

KitFox

Hey, you don't have to believe in me. I'll just torture you for all eternity if you decide to reject me.

Zoe

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I dont care for more religions nor do i know what they do

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

6:55 PM

@Zoe Well, I'm including Christianity in there, just so we're clear.

Jasper Loy

@Zoe Why not explore other religions as well?

Mitch

@KitFox Have you been to a christian church lately? Any guy that's there is dragged against his will by some woman. With the promise of brunch afterwards.

mmm... brunch

Zoe

@JasperLoy So can I. But I cant get the knowledge of the Bible that I need to discern if Christ is worth following without the church. If I want to make a sound decision, Iwould like to give myself every way possible.

Jasper Loy

@Mitch I rather have something else than brunch, lol

KitFox

Why not, right now, just say out loud "I don't believe in God. It's all a bunch of hogwash."?

Zoe

6:56 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Just so we're clear, I have no religion thus am not in a cult.

Jasper Loy

@Zoe OK, just be honest with yourself, that is all that is needed.

KitFox

@Zoe Except for the creepy pastor who is lying to you and manipulating you.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe Well, you go to a church. That's just a more respectable kind of cult. You might not yet be a full member.

KitFox

Kinda sounds cult-like.

Just saying.

Zoe

@JasperLoy I have. I think Muslims are rude and Budhist like to scare people into their version of hell. Those who portray their lives right are either catholics/free thinkers. I think atheist are too dramatic lol

@KitFox How can he manipulate me if i dont even like him? Sometimes i think what he teach is wrong and sometimes its logical/right. So how is he manipulating me? Its not like I like him or I agree with him 101%

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I go to many churches in my free time to explore their teaching.

Jasper Loy

6:59 PM

@Zoe The best thing to do to learn about a religion for me is to read up on your own. Most people are too stupid to know much about their religion

Zoe

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I also speak to many people abt their religion to find out more

KitFox

Atheists are dramatic?

That's funny.

Jasper Loy

Yes, Mr Shiny is quite dramatic, lol

Always ready to jump into another debate, lol