English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Mitch

12:01 AM

I'd say 'work on a team'

Robusto

►

Here is an example from a film.

Lucio

@Mitch but doesn't that mean that you are talking about a specific team?

Robusto

It's the natural way we talk in the U.S., and probably Canada as well. Ask @Matt about what the Brits would say.

@Lucio You're always talking about a specific team. But if you're trying to be vague, on is less specific than in.

Lucio

I am doubting 'case the A there

on is ok

but that is my impression from on a team

Mitch

what Robusto said. I'd say that 'work in a team' is weird for me.

Lucio

12:04 AM

If you, an English native, say that it is right, then I will take that.

Mitch

To be frank, self-knowledge isn't perfect. I may have misled myself.

Lucio

@Robusto "jump for the team" is that what he said?

nice example, btw

Robusto

@Lucio He said "Jump on the team"

"Why don't you jump on the team and come in for the big win." He means it metaphorically.

Cerberus

@Robusto Just because you don't speak proper English over there...

Robusto

@Cerberus Yes. Of course Amsterdam is the only place in the world where "proper" English is spoken.

Cerberus

12:07 AM

England, my dear fellow.

Is where it's at.

Oops.

Mitch

oops?

Robusto

@Cerberus If I want the English point of view, of course I'll ask a Dutchman.

Cerberus

I "inadvertently" used an acrosspondish expression.

Never mind, just keep speaking your dialect!

Robusto

May 2 '12 at 18:13, by Robusto

@Cerberus You're such a language snob.

Mitch

@Cerberus how would you say it in yours?

Cerberus

12:13 AM

Look, it is well known that people often think everybody speaks as they do. We all make this mistake.

@Mitch I wouldn't!

Mitch

@Cerberus You can't translate it?

Cerberus

Mitch

@Cerberus Except for the French.

Cerberus

@Robusto So you see work on a team is more American.

Robusto

@Cerberus Which is the dominant culture, yes.

Cerberus

12:17 AM

And/or possibly more colloquial.

terdon

@Cerb, I'm with you on this. Working on a team sounds to me like you're trying to fix the team. Working in a team sounds like you're a member of it.

Cerberus

@Robusto 1. No. 2. Doesn't matter.

terdon

@Robusto would you really say you work on a team?

damn

Robusto

@terdon Absolutely.

Cerberus

@terdon Haha thanks. But it's OK, Rob always tries to ridicule me, even if work in a team is still more prevalent than work on a team even in America...

Robusto

12:18 AM

@Cerberus 1. Yes. 2. Does matter, unless you're wishing to speak some insular dialect of English.

Cerberus

Proper English is RP, as you know.

My dear chap and fellow.

Robusto

@Cerberus Oh, you're using NGrams again. Look at the Y-axis. Plus we are talking about how people talk, not how they write.

Lucio

I think it was about how do they write, not talking.

terdon

@Cerberus Oh, crap! I am not lending my voice to that argument!

Cerberus

@Robusto I was giving this guy advice in general, and you said "Cerberus is stupid because work in a team is not possible". The mistake is yours.

terdon

12:20 AM

Hmm, there's also:

►

Cerberus

@terdon Haha I was just trying to annoy Rob some more. He deserved it!

Robusto

@Cerberus You should go back and read the transcript.

terdon

Uhuh, keep me out of your petty rivalries gents. :) I'd still say I work in as opposed to on a team though.

Cerberus

I'll keep you out of them...if you drag me out of them in return!

Robusto

23 mins ago, by Robusto

@Cerberus Yes, the difference between the Netherlands and a legitimate English-speaking country.

Cerberus

12:22 AM

Just don't be so quick to mock other people's suggestions.

terdon

Fact: I always tell people to go to Holland if they want to learn "proper" English.

Cerberus

Haha that would be most unwise.

terdon

Ever since a Scottish friend tried to convince me that "Where has Dave went" was grammatical.

Cerberus

Hehe.

Depends on one's definition of "grammatical".

terdon

Oh-oh, you just backed yourself into a corner there.

@Lucio usa lo que te de la gana, estan bien los dos. Ignora esos linguistas pedanticos.

Lucio

12:25 AM

xD

Cerberus

Oh noes!

Whatever shall I do now?

terdon

@Cerberus speaks too many languages to keep them all straight anyway. Also, most of the langauges he speaks are dead.

Lucio

I gotta go now

Cerberus

Hey, I don't normally speak those...

Bye!

Lucio

I appreciate the efforts of all of you!

later

terdon

12:26 AM

See ya

That's interesting though, I would certainly say I'm on the team! but not I'm working on a team.

Cerberus

Yeah I had the same intuition, but Rob's is different.

I didn't claim universality.

terdon

I won't argue against it. I may have grown up speaking the language but I've only ever spent 4 years in a country where it is spoken.

Well, it was England, but close enough anyway.

Cerberus

Yeah apparently in is more common in England.

terdon

Not by much. And for such things my dialect is more US than UK. Well, US of the 30s I guess but hey.

Robusto

We would say working in a group but on a team.

Cerberus

12:31 AM

Haha.

How do you mean "not by much"?

terdon

@Cerberus The percentages are in the same ballpark.

Cerberus

Ah OK, yes.

terdon

@Robusto Hmm, I's say in for both.

Robusto

We would also say "on a roster" . . .

Cerberus

Like on a schedule.

terdon

12:32 AM

It's working that changes it for me for some reason.

Cerberus

Same for me.

Robusto

The use of in [a team] is problematic. To my ear it suggests some kind of infiltration, possibly.

I'm not saying it's impossible, just not what we would normally say.

Cerberus

Better.

terdon

How about onto/into? I'd say I made it onto the team.

Cerberus

Hmm...

Robusto

12:36 AM

@terdon Yes.

Cerberus

Even if it is the Olympic swimmer's team?

Robusto

There into would definitely have connotations of infiltration.

@Cerberus The medium is irrelevant.

terdon

Yes, on land or sea or foam.

Cerberus

Even if it's water?

I am now semantically satiated.

terdon

See above.

Cerberus

12:37 AM

Foam...

terdon

SOng

Cerberus

I made it through the foam, is what I would say.

Or, better, I made the foam.

Or, even shorter, I was foaming.

terdon

> Show me the way to go home
I'm tired and I want to go to bed
I had a little drink about an hour ago
And it went right to my head
Where ever I may roam
On land or sea or foam
You will always hear me singing this song
Show me the way to go home

Indicate the way to my abode
I'm fatigued and I want to retire
I had a spot of beverage sixty minutes ago
And it went right to my cerebellum
Where ever I may perambulate
On land, or sea or atmospheric vapor
You can always hear me crooning the melody
Indicate the way to my abode

Robusto

@terdon Yeah, but can you sing the harmony?

Cerberus

Ah...

terdon

12:39 AM

Yup, Courtesy of long road trips with my Dad who was born in '38.

Robusto

Good. You are keeping up your end of the song then.

Cerberus

Wow, you and your father are two years older than my father and I.

Robusto

I seem to get stuck with people who can't even keep track of the melody when I'm putting on a harmony.

@Cerberus *my father and me.

Cerberus

Don't even start.

terdon

Oh crap...

Robusto

12:41 AM

You ... are older ... than me.

terdon

He does have a point though Cerb...

Cerberus

My father is from '40 and I'm from '83.

No, I am firmly in the I camp.

terdon

@Cerberus Don't be so self-centered.

Cerberus

You know I must be.

Robusto

@Cerberus What a dismal camp that must be.

terdon

12:42 AM

Yeah, there's just I and Claudius.

Cerberus

As Jane from Coupling always says, me, me me. Meeee!

@Robusto On the contrary. It is the most beautiful camp ever.

Robusto

@terdon Cerb would say Ego Claudio.

terdon

:)

Robusto

@Cerberus The camp of self-deception.

Cerberus

Even more beautiful than Theresienstadt when the Nazis shot that film there.

terdon

12:43 AM

@Robusto I-deception?

Robusto

@Cerberus The Nazis shot a lot of things in a lot of places.

Cerberus

@Robusto Nooo!

Robusto

@terdon Yes!

Ego Claudio summus!

Cerberus

@Robusto They shot many of the children-extras with bullets, I believe, after the shooting of the film.

@Robusto Stop it right now!!

terdon

Well, why did you think they were called extras?

Cerberus

12:45 AM

Because they were...supernumerary?

Robusto

Sorry, but I can't joke about child-murders. I withdraw. Can't be glib about some things.

Cerberus

Yay!

I saw a documentary about that, it was pretty horrible.

terdon

That's one point to the insensitive Europeans!

Cerberus

Yesss!

Robusto

> He jests at scars that never felt a wound.

Cerberus

12:46 AM

Our irony is like a shield of air: it cannot be broken!!

terdon

Damn, bad day to talk about Nazis though. Greece just sent three of the buggers to the European parliament.

Cerberus

I read about it...

And their leaders are in prison?

Do you think they will outlaw the Golden Dawn?

terdon

Yup. For murder no less.

Cerberus

Ah, yes.

Those immigrants.

terdon

@Cerberus Hope not. I don't like the idea of making a party that was voted by 1 million people illegal. Despite how abhorrent I find their views.

Cerberus

12:48 AM

Holland is lucky in one regard: our rightwing populist party is entirely non-violent and not focused on racism. They are even pro-Jewish.

terdon

@Cerberus No, no, no. Of course not. They killed an actual person. Greek and white and everything. That's when they had problems. Killing immigrants was not a biggie apparently.

Cerberus

On the other hand, they are annoying as fuck.

Robusto

@Cerberus "... even ..."

Cerberus

@terdon Right, except if the actual party officials have organised serious crimes...

@terdon Ahh OK, makes sense!

@Robusto What do you mean?

terdon

@Cerberus That's a good reason to put them in jail. Not to outlaw the party. The party should be marginalized as it had been for the last two decades.

Cerberus

12:49 AM

@Robusto Most right-wing populist parties in Europe have some ties to anti-Semitism.

Robusto

@Cerberus You said that without irony. "They are even pro-Jewish." As if that were the most extreme aspect of tolerance imaginable.

Cerberus

But Wilders it not just neutral, but pro-Israel.

@terdon What if the organisation that is the party organises crimes as such?

terdon

Umm. I fail to see exactly how that is a good thing. There is a huge difference between being anti-semitic and anti-Israel.

Cerberus

I didn't say it was good.

But it is better.

Normal people are of course neutral towards Jews.

terdon

@Cerberus OK, outlaw them as a criminal organization, fair enough. But don't outlaw the Nazi party just for being Nazi. What next? Communists?

Cerberus

12:52 AM

Ok that was just what I wanted to say.

I am in favour of outlawing movements only if they directly incite or organise violence.

Robusto

@Cerberus I would use a word like "enlightened" instead of "normal" there. It may be that "normal" implies a certain anti-Semitism, as in that being the norm in this world.

terdon

Sadly, that's true.

I still can't believe we send the fuckers to Europe though. Scary.

Cerberus

@Robusto What I meant was that the norm here is to be neutral towards Jews. It is the way 95 % of the people are. Of the remaining 5 %, most are Muslims and anti-Jewish, others are like Neo-Nazis.

@terdon Germany now also has a fascist MEP...

I think I prefer Greek fascists!

terdon

This is a member of the Greek parliament: