English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room - 2014-05-28 (page 3 of 5)

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5:00 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Never said the hidden meanings based on the story being true. I really dont care if the story is fake, but the teaching is interesting

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

What really matters is this: your life is your one life. This is it. Do the best you can with it.

@Zoe Give me an example of an interesting hidden meaning in one of the stories.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I can only tell u what ive heard at the church. Its usually one verse or one chapter that has hideen meanings. But I want to know what u think of this sentence "Knowledge of Him" what is the knowledge of God?

wondermark.com/219

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe "knowledge of him" isn't a sentence. It could mean anything.

the one line or actually, one verse, goes deeper then it seems. I'll give u the verse and u can read it in context

its very short

5:03 PM

It means having sexual relations with God, which is incestuous since he is also your Father.

Gross.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

lol, I didn't want to write that.

Ephesians 1:17
King James Version (KJV)
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

So...by "spirit" he must mean...

I think I am unclean for 7 days.

@KitFox Spooge?

I need to go to temple and kill a couple of pigeons.

5:05 PM

it's okay if u dont wanna decipher the meaning

I think Kit is trolling, lol

how u portray urself... and u are trying to convince me Christianity is false :/

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe There are lots of translations of that line and they interpret it many ways. But I'll bite: what do you think it means? I take it literally.

But since you bring up Ephesians 1:

>11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

Well, I think most people think knowledge of Him being knowledge of God and His ways and His wisdom bla bla but I think that knowledge of Him would include knowledge of the Devil.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

This strongly suggests that God has a plan for everything, and that everything is fated.

5:07 PM

That seems to contradict the free will idea.

Although some people think free will can coexist with determinism

Are you saying that God controls our actions and decisions?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe Seems to say so right there in Ephesians 1:11

> To hear the Christians tell it, God deliberately created humans imperfect, not just susceptible to sin but helpless to avoid it, and then demands moral perfection from us anyway – knowing full well it is a standard we cannot possibly meet.

Yea, God has a plan for everything. We must flow in obedience in order to fulfil His plan for us.

5:09 PM

Free will is the ability of agents to make choices unconstrained by certain factors. Factors of historical concern have included metaphysical constraints (such as logical, nomological, or theological determinism), physical constraints (such as chains or imprisonment), social constraints (such as threat of punishment or censure), and mental constraints (such as compulsions or phobias, neurological disorders, or genetic predispositions). The principle of free will has religious, legal, ethical, and scientific implications. For example, in the religious realm, free will implies that individ...

@Zoe Or not.

Righteous prick.

uhm, no God doesnt demand perfection

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe See, that is a big problem for me. So it means that, eg, when a baby dies of SIDS (aka cot death), that was part of his plan? Did he cause the cot-death, or just let it happen? Was he powerless to stop it? or just cruel?

Geezis, that article on free will makes my head hurt, lol

5:11 PM

@Zoe Really? But if you sin, you go to Hell.

God has a plan for each and everyone of us, but it's our freewill to decide if we want to follow Him or not.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe That's not what it says in Ephesians 1:11

I seem to be one of the few people on this site who likes to write hell instead of Hell

So God doesn't demand perfection, but you will be damned eternally if you aren't perfect.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 what do u think it says?

5:11 PM

Oh, and he made you imperfect.

So you are damned.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe it clearly says "having been predestined according to the plan of him"

Wow, this subject is a fount of inspiration to the room1

@KitFox Unrepentant sinners go to Hell.

It just all sounds like a fairy tale to me, Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

@JasperLoy The difference is this: fairy tales can't really hurt you.

5:12 PM

@Zoe Oh yes, right. If you are sorry, you can do whatever you want.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe Hell is another thing I have a problem with. No matter what crime you commit on earth, no matter how bad, how can that justify ETERNAL punishment?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yeah. And especially if your crime is theological lèse-majesté.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Predestined according to His will/plan. I take it means that, there is a plan that has already a start and an end. It doesn't say he unleashes this plan on us from the day we are born? Since it says in Him then it must mean those who are in Him. And only those who believe and are obedient can be in Him

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe predestined means you cannot escape the fate.

> The most important thing to keep in mind is that getting angry at the victim of an abusive relationship, demanding that they recognize the wrongs being done to them and “snap out of it”, does no good. As maddening as it may seem to watch a fellow human being live in thrall to an abuser, even to turn against people who try to help, it must be remembered that it is not their fault; they are only doing what they believe they must do to survive.

5:15 PM

@KitFox You are assuming that humans cannot feel genuine regret and a will to change. However, if I rob someone and repent, I will still go to prison and probably, God might make me bankrupt, even though I've repented.

I make no such assumption.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Those who "cannot escape the fate" are those who are in Him. Dont worry, you're not in Him, so you can escape the plan He has made for you.

@KitFox Okay.

@Cerberus It's all my fault for starting it, lol

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe So you're saying that the "predestination" is something you opt into?

Anyway, if a human is genuine in wanting to change, then he wouldnt do "whatever he wants" as in, sin for no reason - then that means he is still unrepentant and is a hypocrite, even though he says in his mouth that he repents.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Well, the verse does say those who are in Him have a predestination. If u trust that verse, then yea.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

5:18 PM

What about innocent children in Africa, who walk for miles every day to get drinking water from a filthy stream, who get parasites from that water that will make them go blind before they are 10 years old. Did they opt into that plan? If they pray really hard, can they opt into a better one? Did God create that parasite?

Also, what about me? LOL.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

backs away slowly

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe I think you are misreading it. Or rather, reading into it the interpretation that suits you best. That's fine, I guess. There are LOTS of Christians who hold that God's plan is fully predetermined for everyone, everywhere, all the time.

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 save yourself while you still can!

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 LOL

Human nature by their own freewill makes war, suffering and poverty. One could argue that then why did God allow that or why didn't He intervene? Well, I think that 1) I really dont know 2) It could be the sins of the forefathers 3) Its a bigger picture God has in mind

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

5:20 PM

@Zoe I didn't ask about war. I asked about clean water and parasites.

And sometimes poverty is caused by natural disasters, like hurricanes, or drought.

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 smooch

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@KitFox !_!

smooch

No smooching in this chat

Hola, mi chica.

@JasperLoy Well, there's nothing wrong with it.

5:21 PM

I will smooch whomever I please.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yea lots of Christian, defo not me. I mean, I did take the verse literally. I'm also sure most christians hold the biblical view that Christ in us and we are in Christ

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Maybe you're a farmer, with livestock, and a nice well, and some good crops, and then bang! the hottest summer in 100 years wipes out your crops, dries up your well, and your livestock die. Suddenly you have nothing and your children are dying.

Provided it is consensual.

Is it consensual, @cornbread? I should have asked first.

I assumed prior permission.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 What most parents do is sell their kids into prostitution then, problem solved.

It's probably what God wanted.

Of course, now the ninja is forced to say yes, lol

5:22 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 As for the suffering in the world, I still blame the church. The church is put here to save the lost souls (whether in poverty or whatever)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe I don't think you're taking it literally. Or rather I feel I'm taking it more literally than you.

I would not want Christ in me.

2

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@KitFox kisses your cheekas

@KitFox Geezis, that sounds bad, lol

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@JasperLoy I'm a ninja; I do the forcing.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

5:22 PM

@Zoe The Church is only 2000 years old. Poverty is way older.

@JasperLoy I know. And they say it all the time.

@KitFox If you don't want to marry Christ, then don't become a nun, it's easy.

Nuns are pervs.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Sigh, the church just means believers. Not the physical building.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe uh, yeah. That's what I'm referring to.

Jesus was only allegedly born about 2000 years ago.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Belivers existed before Christ, so did hypocrites.

5:23 PM

Believers in Christ didn't.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe well, Christians didn't exist before that.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 church means believers.

Wow.

Believers before Christ believed in the coming of the Lord and Him dieing for our sins. And they believed in God.

So did hypocrites.

I need some assistance with phrasing a requirement header. What's a tactful way to describe "we need to re-architect the code because the last developer didn't believe in abstraction"?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

5:25 PM

@Zoe how cruel that HE had to die for OUR sins. Though it's slightly better than the old days when EVERYONE had to die, even the babies.

25

Q: "Dieing" vs "dying"

Which is the formally correct spelling, dieing or dying? Is there any history of the alternative spelling? I type dieing naturally, but my spellchecker marks it wrong. This is largely an etymology question in the development of the spelling of the word dying, since when I think of dyeing I see th...

etymology orthography

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 But not the ducks. Or the fish.

That's how we know that ducks are evil.

Also, sailors.

And dolphins.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox You could say "in order to support new functionality and allow for faster bug-fixing and development, we need to improve the code architecture"

I probably can fit robust in there too. Good idea.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes, it is.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

5:27 PM

@Zoe Still seems like an all-powerful, all-knowing, merciful being could have thought of something better.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 That seems to change the meaning, lol

That's just God showing off anyway. "I am going to kill myself because I made you do it wrong!"

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Like, sending a prophet who was really good at convincing people to stop being dicks.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I think somewhere in the NT, it says the Law is death so in that area, it fulfils things that happen in the OT

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe ancient prophecies are convenient that way. You can twist them around into whatever kind of pretzel-shaped interpretations you need.

5:28 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yea, like sending Jesus faster. However, I don't level Him down to my understanding. Though, He is sovereign, as much as He is mercy and righteous and just.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Or just making people be not dicks.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Messiah's not a military leader, like everyone thought/wanted, but some kind of hippy? Let's just make him die on the cross, so that he fulfills the dying prophecy.

@KitFox Actually it sounds alright the way it is, you are not faulting anyone.

@Zoe Hey, I haven't completely erased you from existence yet. I am incredibly merciful. I don't hear you thanking me for that.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Well, it's weird that the people who crucified Jesus didn't believe in the OT/Law(s) of Moses.

5:30 PM

@KitFox That sounds like a psychopath lol

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe But if you read the Bible, you'll see that most of the time God's actions are completely inexplicable if you assume he's really really smart, but make perfect sense if you assume he's just "human"-level.

@KitFox I dont thank God for alot of things.

@Zoe I'm talking about thanking me.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe What are you talking about. The romans only did it because the Jews demanded it.

Assuming it even happened.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I mean, they manage to fulfil a prophecy they didnt believe in makes me think that, when they crucified Jesus, they didnt crucify Him so that it can fulfil some prophecy

@KitFox Why should I thank you...?

5:32 PM

For not erasing you from existence.

This conversation is making my head hurt, lol

@KitFox You mean from this chat? Well, I wouldn't be incredibly distressed, I'll just... not be in this chat, it's not like I would die or anything important.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe And I'm saying that 1. It wasn't the Romans who did that. The Jews demanded he be crucified. The Romans merely obliged them. 2. There is no evidence that there really was a person like Jesus who died on the cross. 3. Lots of the other "fulfilled" prophecies are just after-the-fact rationalization.

@Zoe No, from existence.

@KitFox But you can't, though.

5:33 PM

@Zoe Sure I can.

@KitFox Okay.

Therefore, I have been merciful. I'd appreciate a little acknowledgement.

@Zoe I think Kit is saying if she were God...

@KitFox Haha, when I said okay, I didn't mean I believe that you can erase me from existence.

Who do you think you are to demand proof from me?

5:35 PM

@KitFox Who is demanding proof from you? And proof of what?

The extent of my mercy is limitless, or else I would erase your existence right now.

1 min ago, by Jasper Loy

@Zoe I think Kit is saying if she were God...

@JasperLoy Who are you to claim that I am not?

@KitFox I think you are confusing her, lol

I have created life from lifelessness. Pretty sure I qualify as divine.

5:36 PM

Haha, contrary to popular belief, Christians don't need proof to become Christians. I mean, with all the contradictions and easy alternatives supplied by non-Christians, one would think all the Christians would have been converted by now.

That's not what I'm saying at all.

I don't need proof to believe you cannot erase me from existence.

If Christians needed proof, they wouldn't be Christian.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe And in fact, that is what's happening. Atheism is the fastest growing "religion" (note: it's not a religion)

So uh, who is demanding proof from you again?

5:38 PM

You don't believe I can erase you.

I don't.

Well, then you are going to be punished severely in the afterlife.

Sorry. No exceptions.

Haha, cool.

I still don't get what ur trying to say here

3 mins ago, by Jasper Loy

1 min ago, by Jasper Loy

@Zoe I think Kit is saying if she were God...

Are you saying that God will send people to Hell if people did nt believe He had the power to kill them?

5:39 PM

LOL

@Zoe Doesn't matter. All you need to know is that you are going to suffer forever for your lack of belief.

Which is why I'm not christian

You are Christian. I don't know why you say you aren't.

@Zoe But you are trying to become one? I don't understand

@KitFox Maybe she has a certain definition of "Christian" in mind.

You say right in your profile that you believe in salvation through Jesus Christ, ergo you are a Christian.

5:41 PM

Oh man, I must repeat myself again.... The Christians you know today are not the type you find in the Bible....

Even the Apostles didn't believe in Jesus Christ

until many many many times of confirmations/tribulations later

Yeah, that doesn't tell me why you profess the faith, but don't claim the title.

@zoe What is this definition of Christian you are using when you say you are not one?

Hypocrites also believe in Jesus Christ, but if you think they are Christian, then so be it.

Not all hypocrites believe in Christ.

And salvation through Christ is pretty much a defining characteristic of the faith.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

My definition of "Christian" is someone who believes that Christ is their saviour.

5:43 PM

In the Bible, Christians are followers of Christ. And what does it mean to follow Christ? Repentance, faithful, showing faith through good works, being righteous, follow 10 commandments, many many more, make disciples of the nations, not make converts only.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

It's a broad definition. Even includes the Mormons.

@Zoe And how does this not apply to you?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Oh, the 10 commandments. Why oh why couldn't it have "don't rape" on there? Why are there thoughtcrimes on there?

I mean there are hypocrites who believe in Christ

or they say to believe, but people still call them Christian, then okay.

Sure. Doesn't make them non-Christian.

If you believe in salvation through Christ, regardless of whether you are saved, you are Christian.

5:45 PM

@KitFox I am rebellious, i don't pray, i go to church only to learn about knowledge of the Bible, I am unrepentant, I am judgemental and definitely unrighteous

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe Does that make you feel bad? guilty?

@KitFox Well, in the Bible, its not so simple.

@Zoe And you are saying because of that you are not Christian?

I think you should go to a different church.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Here's some advice: Prayer doesn't work (it's been proven), the Bible's "knowledge" is useless, and there is no afterlife for you to get a reward or punishment in. Make this life count.

5:46 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Hmm... Well, I am now in the middle of "If I can't be a true chritian, then I should just dont be a christian at all since I would be fake. And thus, should stop going to church or wearing the cross."

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 But prayer did work for me when i was at the height of my faith. Which is why I say I believe there is a God because of the things I witness. Other then that, my faith is basically zero faith.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Many people believe in a religion because they can't make this life count

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe Read "The God Delusion" and "God is not Great" by Dawkins and Hitchens, respectively, and the skeptics-annotated bible, and the brick testament (seriously!).

@Zoe How did it work?

@JasperLoy Well, I think that if one believes the Bible to be the Word of God then they should trust in the commands or laws or stories or guidelines in there. Especially those pertaining to Christ. So yea, I prefer the christians in the Bible then the cultural christians of modern times

@KitFox Well, I think your church is ugly. And doesn't put out.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

5:48 PM

@Zoe The thing is, we know now that sometimes when we do things (like pray) we see an effect afterwards, but it isn't always because of what we did. That's the "correlation = causation" fallacy.

Maybe you prayed for rain, and then it rained.

Is that because you prayed?

Or is it because water moisture collects in the air and the winds blow it around and it forms clouds, and eventually falls to the earth as droplets?

When prayers don't come true, the religious followers usually have lots of excuses for it

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

If you pray 10 times for rain, will it rain 10 times?

Such as God is testing you, God is strengthening you etc

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

If you pray for people to get better in hospitals, do they? That one's been tested, with large groups of people praying for particular patients or groups of patients, and there is no change at all in the pateints' outcomes.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Some people do.

5:50 PM

Only the worthy.

And for people who pray hard enough.

Jinx

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mitch And some don't. It must be God's plan. Only God's plan is indistinguishable from what God's mathematics tells us is statistical randomness.

You probably won't accept my answer for prayer not being answered. 1) Lack of faith becauser after the prayer, the person didnt actually believe that it would be answered. 2) Will and timing of God. If God doesn't will something to happen, it wouldn't.

So. Random.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

5:51 PM

@Zoe Yeah that's what people always say for that.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 You don't sound earnest.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It's because that's what is taught in the Bible

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

The thing is, you can't point to a single example, anywhere, of an amputee being healed by prayer. Not one, ever. No matter how fervently they believed, no matter how good a life they'd led. It. Never. Happens.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 You and your 'math' and 'knowledge'.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So God must really hate amputees then. He's got it out for them.

5:53 PM

There is indeed chance and randomness and human decisions that cause something to happen. But I think God can be in that equation too.

And 'repeatable results'.

LOL

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

OTHER people, with diseases that CAN be cured, or can go into remission, or spontaneously heal, THOSE people ARE part of his plan to sometimes be miraculously cured. But not those cursed amputees.

Since we can't distinguish God from chance and randomness, we might as well lump them all together.

I guess this is someone who trust the Bible VS someone who doesn't. I don't disregard chance or randomness, but I dont disregard God being the cause as well.

5:54 PM

There's millions of believer's worth of evidence that prayer and faith make a difference. How do you justify your methods? Your results are justifying your methods.

I guess I believe in God after all.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Got Cancer? God cares. He might make it go away! Especially if you have a health plan. Got blown up by a religious kook at the Boston Marathon? FUCK YOU! It's a wheelchair for you, buddy.

@Zoe I find no reason to trust the Bible. Mr Shiny has already talked about all the bad things in it

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe There is no reason to trust the bible.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 'Hate' is a hateful word. God isn't doing it to hurt them. It's a test.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Lizards. Lizards must be good people.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

5:55 PM

@Mitch Some people he tests so much that they loose ALL their limbs.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 That's because a former colony of Massachusetts legalized same sex marriage several months prior.

@JasperLoy I trust the Bible in that everything happened as said. Not like, we should smite people because God did too

@KitFox God of the curve.

@Zoe So, then did Eve come from Adam's rib or from dust?

Rib

5:56 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Or you chose the wrong god.

@Zoe What about where it says dust?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe But lots of what's in the Bible definitely didn't happen. There was never and Exodus. There was never a Flood. The sun never stood still over Jericho, or whatever city that was. The Earth wasn't created in seven days. Jonah was never swallowed by a fish.

There was a flood though.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox There have been floods. Not Noah's flood.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Ah, the day in the bible is not an actual day, so that example cannot be used

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

5:57 PM

@JasperLoy Yes, it can be used.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I think most christians would tell u that one day for God is one thousand years

And the original data model of the Earth was created in seven days.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 You don't know that. You weren't there.

@Zoe Still pretty far off from reality.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 There was a big one. Might have been the same one.

I can accept it metaphorically if one day means a long period of time, so I don't use this example

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

5:58 PM

@Zoe They are trying to twist their story to fit the scientific evidence. We KNOW a lot about how the earth was formed, where life came from, and how humanity got here. NOTHING in Genesis matches that. The Genesis story doesn't even make sense anyway. Where did Cain's wife come from?

Oh! She's the one made from dust!

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Why do you insist on things being taken literally?

The suttas actually talk about where life comes from, interestingly

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JasperLoy You have to turn the entire story into metaphor then. Because the stated events make no sense.

And why don't Christians kill pigeons on a regular basis?

5:59 PM

So of all religions, I still find Buddhism the most credible.

@JasperLoy Where was it? Wembley?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Mitch I insist on the Bible being treated as fiction, not literal. Zoe said she takes it as it's written.

It's right there in the Bible about the sacrificing and stuff.

Uhm, why should Christians kill pidgeons?

You got to kill pigeons for almost everything you do.

5:59 PM

@Zoe You misspelled pigeons

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe There are tons of rules in Leviticus that tell you how many pigeons you have to kill and at what times.

When you menstruate or have sex or give birth.

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