English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room - 2014-05-28 (page 2 of 5)

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4:00 PM

However, the training to get there, is just like the apostles in the book of Acts. One needs to completely submit.

@JasperLoy Well, idk any other person who would spent thousands of dollars to take care of one boy unless he wants to make sure that boy and his family are taken care of. My evangelist has a calling to bless China. Unless it's God, no one sane person would spend that kinda money.

Yes. Indeed. No sane person would.

LOL

The church is small, no one can afford to give him money. He has no other job, all the money to him comes from God through weird ways.

I mean, one day he gave all his money to his brother-in-law because the bro wants to start a bible school but they had no money. God asked him to give all his money to his bro. It was a crucial lesson of living by faith alone. One stranger gave the evangelist 20 cents to buy bread for dinner.

Authors like Merlin Carothers inspire me :) But the journey to get there is very hard.

I have given up all religion for now, I can't find enough reason to believe in any of them

Don't believe in religion.

Believe in God.

so huge difference, the modern times are.... hypocritical.

4:04 PM

Oh, I believe he exists but doesn't really care about us.

Well, have you heard the story of the prodigal son?

Yes, many times

Besides, a loving God has to be shown as just, He can't spoon feed us love all the time man.

If you believe all the things you have are from God, it's His love to you. But many times, we think it's us us us and we leave him out of the equation. How would you father feel if you don't acknowledge him?

Right. I make my children earn it too. You got to know that love is conditional.

@Zoe I will tell you a little secret, I am from the same place you are, lol

4:06 PM

He is loving and just and righteous yea... But He is also sovereign....

(I'm just trolling.)

Haha, what do you mean?

@Zoe You mean me?

Some people can't accept that God can be a lil bias

Yea

lol

@Zoe I am saying that the location in your profile is also my location

4:07 PM

Ah I see, Singapore?

Yes, I don't really want to type that word here, there are many spies

Hahaha

Maybe you could come to where I go to

You mean church?

It's a different type of church... It's not those big auditorium prosperity church

Yea

I went to Lighthouse Evangelism before

4:08 PM

No idea what that is, but ours dont have fancy name

it's just full gospel church

What does "full gospel" mean?

@Zoe Ah, OK. I will tell you another little secret, I did some teaching here before, in some schools

non denominational, we love everyone and we adhere to a code that is like, every denomination that edifies the body of Christ are armies fighting differentbattles but the same war against the Devil

@KitFox pentacostalism

@JasperLoy Defo dont know any teacher by the name of Jasper Loy, haha

@Zoe Defo???

But I must admit, I find humour in certain teachings in other denominations, like the LDS'.

@JasperLoy Definitely

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

4:10 PM

@Zoe What evidence is there for God? What is God, anyway?

@Zoe I thought you mean therefore, lol

@Zoe Good good, I have many enemies, I don't want them to spy on me

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe Why are their teachings more humorous than yours?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I've no idea except for the miracles. I can't prove God. He appears to who He wills. And He's actually veyr interested in revealing Himself

@RegDwigнt That is true, she could do with less make-up. But still!

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Well, I don't think my church believes in super underwears

@JasperLoy A teacher with enemies, not unheard of.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

4:12 PM

@Zoe How can you prove that miracles are real, and not just random chance? Lots of strange stuff happens all the time.

@Zoe He never revealed himself to me, and he never healed me of my illness

@Alraxite Aww Vista, of all systems? Oh, well, then perhaps it is time to upgrade...or we could buy it for later...but I wasn't going to buy it now anyway, just wanted y'all to know.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe But it believes in talking snakes? demonic possession? turning water into wine?

@JasperLoy Hmm... I could give you many verses and explanation about that. One is that He is sovereign, two is that He is a jealous God.. etc the list goes on, we probably need a seperate chatroom for that lol

@Cerberus Wait till Windows 9 comes out, lol, or try Linux Mint 17 which will be out this weekend

4:14 PM

@JasperLoy Haha maybe!

@Zoe What did you study in university?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I can't either. However, if one can attribute to chance I'm sure I can attribute it to God too. I mean, if science can't explain, chance maybe could but God 100% can.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe verses of what? the Bible? How do you know the Bible is more true than the Koran, or the Book of Mormon, or the Silmarillion?

@Cerberus I can teach you how to install, very simple.

I'm sorry, I cannot switch to Linux.

@Robusto I never played the original XCOM, alas.

4:15 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I believe that Jesus did many miracles, but the copyist versions of today's Bible.... I need to discern more. I do believe in demonic possession. But more like, everyone of us have evil spirits, even illness is from evil spirit.

@JasperLoy Nothing of interest :P

@Zoe Hmm, now you are being secretive, lol.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe It's not good reasoning to just attribute things to God like that. That's the "God of the Gaps" fallacy. In the old days we didn't understand a lot, so God was responsible for everything. Sunrise. Rainfall. etc. Now we know that the Sun is a big ball of fire and the earth spins and gravity + orbits + geometry is what causes sunrise and seasons.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I guess because the Bible is actually less discriminatory then other holy books? I think I would prefer a God that has a reason for every bad and good thing that happens in the Bible.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe How do you know Jesus even existed? Most of the Bible was put together 400 years after he died. It could all be wrong, or fictional.

@Zoe The Bible is full of mass murder (ordered or caused by God), slavery, incest, family violence, regular murder, xenophobia, misogyny......

@KitFox What are you eating?

4:18 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Even I dont attribute everything to God, but even I, as logical as I would like to be, have to admit that the beginning of everything, has to come from somewhere. However, I am not christian so sometimes, I get stubborn and rebellious and dont thank God for stuff. But then, if God allows bad stuff, He also allows the good, but no one cares enough to thank Him.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe What does "Everything has to come from somewhere" mean? We have pretty good understanding of where "everything" came from, more or less.

@Cerberus Neither did I. I was quoting from "The Enemy Within."

@Zoe I don't know how you can claim to be "non-Christian".

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Well, I believe Jesus existed, but I can't prove it. However, I think the mechanism of salvation is more logical then say the Islamic way - every person must answer for their own sins (which is kinda brutal way to end our lives since in Islam, no one saves the muslim?)

@Robusto Oh, I haven't played the new games either...

Did you like them?

4:19 PM

@Cerberus Well, I am puzzled by your comment then.

I think there are also some DLCs on sale.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe A simpler explanation is that both Islam and Christianity are wrong.

@Robusto Why? And which comment?

@Cerberus They're fine. Turn-based shooter games.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 If you fgive me the chapter for it, there is a reason for whatever bad things that God commanded to happen like mass killing of Egyptian babies or the ten plagues or smiting of Sodom

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 But we prob need a seperate chatroom for that

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

4:20 PM

@Zoe Well, take Exodus. That's a good example.

@Robusto Good. I like the genre, so I'm sure I'd like the games.

@Cerberus You drew an inference based on no information.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Not again!

@Zoe You misspelled separate

@Robusto Where?

4:21 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 like where did the Sun came from? How about space?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

In Exodus, God sends plagues to torment the Egyptians to convince them to let the Hebrews go. But after Pharaoh is convinced, God hardens his heart and changes his mind, i.e. interferes with Pharaoh's Free Will, so that God can then go on to murder babies.

The Pharaoh.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe There are countless stars in space. They form on their own, through gravity.

Just like the Crimea.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Well, I can't prove christianity is right and you can't prove the wrong so... I guess this cancels the arguement out?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

4:22 PM

@Cerberus The hoi polloi

Spinning dust and gas condenses into incandescent plasma.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Stop it, you blasphemer!!

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Is it about the egyptian babies?

Do you also say the Al-Qaida?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe No. Actually I can prove that some of its claims are wrong. And anyway the onus is on you to prove that it's right.

@Zoe Yes. There is no way in the world you can convince me that an all-powerful being (or even a being powerful enough to kill all the babies in one night) couldn't have found a less-blood-thristy solution to his problems.

Especially since his problem had already been solved, but then he deliberately made things worse.

4:24 PM

@Zoe I see a beer bottle lying on the street right between two bicycles. I cannot explain how it ended up just there. Does that mean God did it, is that proof of God's existence? The mere fact that I cannot explain it, do not know its origin?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Actually, to convert people to Christianity, it's not about proving our truth is the right truth nor disproving others' truth, it's just by the way we live as a christian.

@Cerberus I think someone just exercised his free will and left the beer bottle there

@Zoe You think but you do not know.

Oh, it's my fault for bringing up religion in conversation, lol.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe The thing is, you (and all Christians) are claiming that there is God, and Jesus, and lots of other things. I claim that there is no proof that there is. You say "well, you can't prove there isn't, so it makes sense to believe in it."

!!summon 168

4:26 PM

@KitFox No idea what that does

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

!!wiki Russels's teapot

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 No result found

!!summon 169

@JasperLoy Registered; need 0 more to execute

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Russell's teapot

Russell's teapot, sometimes called the celestial teapot or cosmic teapot, is an analogy first coined by the philosopher Bertrand Russell (1872–1970) to illustrate that the philosophic burden of proof lies upon a person making scientifically unfalsifiable claims rather than shifting the burden of proof to others, specifically in the case of religion. Russell wrote that if he claims that a teapot orbits the Sun somewhere in space between the Earth and Mars, it is nonsensical for him to expect others to believe him on the grounds that they cannot prove him wrong. Russell's teapot is still r...

4:27 PM

@zoe And how about the green leaf that fell right on top of my window sill? I cannot explain it either, and it seems unlikely that man did that.

@JasperLoy You just sent her to some random room.

@Cerberus No I don't, uhm but how is the beer bottle important?

Atheism Meta.

Last message posted 1252 days ago.

rofl

Haha

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I cant prove miracles because I dont have the capacity to

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

4:28 PM

@Zoe Just because one can't prove that god doesn't exist, doesn't mean one should believe in it. There are lots of things we can't prove don't exist.

@Zoe Well, you seem to be saying, "if you cannot explain x, that is proof that God did it, and hence of His existence".

How can a site called Atheism have enough questions?

They didn't.

@JasperLoy I'll tell you how: it didn't.

I was there!

Jinx

4:28 PM

I typed more letters.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I'm not saying that if you cant prove God doesnt exist it means im right. I just said that u cant prove He doesnt exist and I cant prove He exist so the proving part should just end

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe You don't need to prove them. But you should take note: everything that happens "miraculously" is always, always, something that could have happened by chance.

@Zoe No, you're trying to weasel out of your obligations. You claim he exists. That is a strong claim, you should be able to defend it.

What is chance? That is a very deep question...

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I do not know how I can replay my experience on this chat site

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Things that happen miraculously: cancer goes into remission, diseases get cured, lost things are found, people survive horrific accidents nobody thought were survivable, etc. Things that never happen miraculously, no matter how hard people pray for it: the dead coming back to life, lost limbs re-growing.

4:31 PM

I mean, I believe in miracles and the only way I know for sure God exist is by the miracles He did in my life and the life I see around me. And I have been saying I can't prove that because it's happened and it's in the past, how can I prove that?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Mental patients not recovering, lol

@Zoe OK, good for you

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe I'm saying that "miracles" are just good luck, and the cause isn't "God", but something else. Chance. People being people and doing good. etc.

@JasperLoy Well, some do recover.

I don't know how can human bring a dead baby, who is in the cold room (morgue), back to life.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe Just because you don't know how, doesn't mean it's impossible.

Or maybe the baby wasnt dead just asleep, in minus temperatures.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

4:33 PM

Consider: the baby might not have been dead.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Those things can happen to some animals, and they may happen to us in the future.

> You are not a beautiful or unique snowflake. You are the same decaying organic matter as everyone else, and we are all a part of the same compost pile.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

People have survived underwater for hours because they were so cold they were basically hibernating.

Sigh, I find it easier to accept that a higher power was acting.

@Robusto Powerful

4:34 PM

Religion is the easy way.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Or maybe the whole story is a lie.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe This was one of the hardest things I faced when I fully gave up my religion: acceptance of the fact that the world is not easy. Some things are just hard because life can be shitty. Example: there is no afterlife, so you will never be reunited with your dead grandparents. I miss them so much, but it's just wishful thinking to imagine that I'll see them again.

Is it by chance that an 18 year old boy who puked blood from his mouth for 16 years, got healed without spending a single cent at the doctors, the week our evangelist went to china to save him?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox Yeah. People get stuff wrong, or make stuff up.

I mean, I guess this is what is called faith. Attributing to God rather then the possible chance?

4:35 PM

@Zoe You say that as if it were a verifiable ~~truth~~ claim.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 You might see them in your next life, if you believe in rebirth

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe It could be. How much independent confirmation of this event do you have? How much blood did he stop puking? for how long?

@JasperLoy Well, obviously, I don't.

@Robusto Which is kinda why I said I cant prove miracles.

@Robusto Well, I suppose it is, isn't it?

Seems more likely that the evangelist made it up though.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe You should be suspicious of claims of miracles.

4:36 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 For about a month or so now, the evangelist is now in China again, to plant some churches

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

There was a famous religious person on tv who healed people.

He used to put on big shows and cure crippled people so they could walk again.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I discern everything I am taught.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Only, it was all a scam.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I dont trust TVs.

I saw Teller throw needles into his mouth and then pulled them out all threaded together. A miracle? Divine intervention, just because I don't understand how he did that?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

4:37 PM

His staff would give people crutches and wheelchairs and talk to the audience members, then relay information to him via radio

Well, I dont mind if u dont believe in God, but theres good stuff in the Bible that shouldnt be missed out on

Lots of bad stuff too.

@Zoe More downright evil than good, IMO.

jinx

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe There is so much bad stuff in the Bible that I cannot accept it at all. There is more good stuff in Harry Potter, I'm afraid.

Like how women are evil and lesser than men.

4:38 PM

Even if there is good stuff, it is just good stuff, not part of that religion. I can have good stuff without religion

@Robusto I dont deny He can be hard with His hand

@KitFox Women arent lesser than men in God's eyes.

@KitFox OK, let's not get carried away.

Which is why I can never understand why a woman would choose that.

Assuming Zoe is a woman, lol

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe Have you read the Bible? They are SO much lesser than men. Read any of Paul's writings on women.

4:39 PM

@Zoe I still don't understand why you claim that you are not a Christian.

A woman caused Original Sin, because women are the weaker vessels and can't resist a treat.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe How about the part where he kills almost every single human on earth because he can't figure out how to make them less "wicked".

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Ur talking abt the corinthian laws regarding women

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe I'm talking about Paul's laws.

Saint Paul.

Christianity's biggest, most important evangelist.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 If God makes us less wicked then we wont have freewill and then people will start to complain why He is making us to be like puppets, there'll always be a way for people to complain against Him

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

4:41 PM

Who, btw, never met Jesus. He fell off his horse then hallucinated.

@KitFox A christian is a follower of Christ. Christians were first called Christians in the Book of Acts. Christians are supposed to do greater acts than He. Not pray all the freaking time.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe Still, there was no way at all to stop the wickedness, it had to be slaughter? even the babies couldn't be saved?

Why does God care if we have free will?

The fact that there is so much unbearable suffering in this world is enough to show that this being called God does not care

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Then there is the bigger problem: Noah's flood, and the Exodus, and lots of other stories from the old testament, aren't even true. They didn't happen. That much we know with great certainty.

4:42 PM

@KitFox Because if we have free will, then he can go all passive-aggressive on our asses.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Well, if you believe the Bible, babies directly go to Heaven no matter what. To us humans, it's downright cruel and unjust. To God, the babies are in heaven. If not, the babies would grow up and their way of life leads them to Hell (e.g., by enslaving more insraelites)

@Robusto Where's that comic? Wondermark, I think. @Mr.Shiny probably has it bookmarked.

@Zoe No they don't. They go to Hell because they haven't been baptized.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe So in that case, we should just always murder babies so they can go straight to heaven, instead of taking the risk that they get corrupted on Earth.

@KitFox opinions differ.

@JasperLoy This suffering is because the christians dont care enough. God put His disciples here to preach to the world and to intercede for lost souls, it's really the reslt of cultural christians that everyone thinks God doesnt care.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox The maltheism one?

4:44 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Can't be. Divine word of God.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 The "God as abusive relationship" one.

@KitFox People can be baptized and still go to hell. Im sure u heard of hypocrites

@Zoe That's irrelevant. You go to Hell if you're not baptized. I wasn't talking about what happens if you are baptized.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 not sure if humans can decide to end a life. But if u believe we all belong to God then He can decide according to His will.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox wondermark.com/804 This one?

@KitFox I actually dont believe that people who are not baptized go to hell

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

4:45 PM

@KitFox I think the divine words are not clear, or contradictory.

Specifically with regards to babies.

haha

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 But that's not possible. Because God.

@KitFox If what u say is true, then i think 75% of the NT must be false or wrong

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 No. That's the maltheism one.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe You're close. 100%.

4:46 PM

@Zoe I'd put the percentage higher than that.

@Zoe Anyway, I only brought up religion because you had it in your profile, it is not my intention to have a debate about this topic

I dont feel like its a debate

lol

Well, I don't believe that people who are not baptized will go to hell, so I believe the NT is true.

I believe that god exists and he HATES us.

So you disbelieve something that's in the Bible?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe How about the fact that some parts of the NT contradict other parts? Or the fact that it was written decades after Jesus supposedly lived?

4:48 PM

nice one.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox I'm not sure which one you mean, then.

@SmritiYadav He hates the sins that taint us

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 You seem to have much Biblical knowledge, lol

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It was like this article, but a comic, I thought.

@KitFox I believe everything, but dont follow alot.

I mean, sometimes the evangelist's attitude gives me shivers

4:49 PM

Seriously.... I am not that much spiritual

n neither do I know anything about Bible.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JasperLoy That's what made me an atheist, instead of just a lazy Catholic. Reading the Bible, and reading about it.

and sometimes, his teachings are really harsh

Practicality is what I believe in

Excellent!

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 which parts contradict which?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 i actually would love to know

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

4:51 PM

@Zoe You should first question whether the bible itself is even trustworthy. How do you know it is? Even if there is a God, how could you know that was his bible? What makes that one so much better than the others?

@Zoe in that case I direct you to the Skeptics Annotated Bible

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Oh, I gave an answer that the bible we have today are all just copyist translation and is not the original Word of God

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

It lists lots of problems and bad things in the bible.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 which is why i say i discern everything that im taught

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe So then you should distrust the Bible and probably ignore it. But then what do you have that suggests god?

I am giving up Buddhism because it is not clear what Nibbana is.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

4:54 PM

Here is an incomplete list of cruelty in the bible

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 There are rules in schools that are just illogical. Like no ankle socks. Doesn't mean students shouldnt trust it. They believe yes no ankle socks, but doesnt mean they follow. which is how I view some of the teachings.

It seems that after Nibbana, one does not get reborn, which makes Buddhism a kind of annihilationism that it claims to avoid

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe But the Bible is generally a terrible teacher.

Atheists tend to have much simpler rules.

1. Treat others nicely.

That's essentially all you need.

Your ethics can simply stem from one core principle: avoid doing harm.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It's a good story teller and it's hidden meanings are enlightening. I dont folow the Bible because I dont have the Holy Spirit to reveal it's truths to me, I rely on the church and thus, I discern by logic or by plausibility of that teaching being right or of God.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

You can add: try to improve the world.

4:56 PM

@Zoe You misspelled its

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe Your logic is faulty though. The "hidden meanings" the church gives you are based on a fundamentally unsound premise: that there is a god who created everything.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 1. Don't be a dick.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Hidden meanings are nuggets of knowledge. E.g., what do you understand from this sentence "Knowledge of Him"?

@KitFox Unless you are Dick, lol

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I mean some of the story is pretty ridiculous. God creates man and woman, but won't let them have Knowledge, so the snake tempts the woman (because women are inferior) and convinces the man and the eat the forbidden fruit and get knowledge. From then on, ALL HUMANITY is cursed. Eventually God gets annoyed and hits "reset", killing everyone, except a few, but doesn't reset the curse. Later, he demands a sacrifice of his own son, who is also himself, to somehow atone for sins of others.

4:58 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 My knowledge is not faulty because I do not look at a teaching and immediately think "It's right because God-" which is what ur saying

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I agree with you

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Zoe No. I'm saying that any story in the bible always has hidden meanings about god. The hidden meanings don't depend on the story being true.

But the hidden meanings only matter if there is a god.

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