The Awkward Silence

JAD

06:56

good morning

Tinkeringbell

Morning! :)

ankii

07:13

Morning!

1

Q: Is there any way to develop iOS apps on a MacPro 2,1 in 2019?

I wanted to run cordova on some my apps so that I can test them for iOS. Running cordova run ios on a windows system will complain: xcodebuild was not found. Please install version 9.0.0 or greater from App Store I had already read that you needed a Mac in order to build iOS apps so not k...

@scohe001 @CaldeiraG

Oh man... I come to know something new about your username every-time I manually tag you. I thought it was claderia, then cladeira and now caldeira.

CaldeiraG

07:30

@ankii :p i know what you feel, most people have trouble spelling the name

what's a macPro 2,1 though

there ya go

https://learnappmaking.com/develop-ios-apps-on-windows-pc/

Basically just buy a Mac, it will save you from troubles xD

Ælis

09:04

→ 13 messages moved to Trash

avazula

09:37

→ 5 messages moved to Trash

Sorry I had to remove that message @CaldeiraG, we prefer not to discuss these things in chat. But I did see your flag and contacted them to let them know about the issue :)

Ælis

If someone could keep an eye on this to make sure the sentence I removed doesn't come back exactly as is, I would be grateful

avazula

@Ælis oof... I'll try to, yes

Hugo Zink

Hey, quick question: a few days ago it was decided that the term "manspreading" should no longer be used in a particular question and its answers. I suggested a similar edit to another question, remove usage of the term "mansplaining" (as it has indeed provoked some arguments). But my edit was rejected. Could anyone tell me why? interpersonal.stackexchange.com/questions/14219/…

Relevant meta post: interpersonal.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/3811/…

Ælis

@HugoZink Nothing was decided. I just agreed that it would be better for my question to not contain the term (because it was causing too much work to moderate) and I let people edit it out

avazula

@HugoZink Hi there! I'm the one who rejected the edit. I'll try to explain my reasoning but it my take some time for me to gather my thoughts, so please don't mind the latency :)

Ælis

09:51

@HugoZink This question is old, it no longer generates a lot of discussions and arguing, so leaving the term here is fine. Note: this is just my opinion and might not be the reason why avazula decided to reject the edit

CaldeiraG

@avazula No worries! You guys should have a "Ask a moderator" chat room for such situations

Tinkeringbell

@CaldeiraG Nah, that's called 'raise a custom flag' :P

CaldeiraG

@Tinkeringbell Unfortunately, I found the character limit very small so I couldn't fit more if I wanted :p

avazula

@HugoZink Quick disclaimer first: I'm a feminist and I advocate daily on refusing oppressions of any kind, may it be about handicap, race, sexuality, gender, or species. I rejected the edit as "clearly conflicting with the author's intent". I did so because they were discussing studied, named, common sociological patterns, and OP clearly wanted to talk about the phenomenon that's called mansplaining. -TBC

Tinkeringbell

@CaldeiraG Hmm... I don't know. We already have so many rooms!

Journeyman Geek

09:59

@CaldeiraG lol

that's an old SU tradition

and tbh might not work for all communities

CaldeiraG

@JourneymanGeek I like it though

Journeyman Geek

@CaldeiraG There's a very narrow band of situations where its super useful

avazula

I know some people get offended by that word, from my understanding mostly because they don't want to be accused of mansplaining. They think every time someone appearing as male explains something to someone appearing as female, that's mansplaining. it is not. Mansplaining is about unsolicited advice and explanation from someone whose allowed and encouraged by society to make themselves heard and not let others express themselves. -TBC

Ælis

@avazula "TBC"?

Hugo Zink

To be continued

CaldeiraG

10:01

@JourneymanGeek If only the custom flag thingie allowed more characters it would be perfect

Hugo Zink

As in, they're still typing their next part

avazula

It's like when a cisman tells a woman they can't suffer that much from their period, that it's biologically impossible to be split in two by pain, etc. This is mansplaining. When a cisman gives his unsolicited opinion about something, thinking he know better than the woman he's talking too. And that, I believe, is what OP wanted to talk about in their post. -To Be Continued (:p)

Ælis

:p

@CaldeiraG I always want to be chatty when I leave a custom flag (especially since I know the mods), so I also end-up frustrated too ^^

CaldeiraG

@Tinkeringbell We got 4, i guess? (here, HNQ,Comment thingies and The Closet)

Ælis

@CaldeiraG Comment thingies?

CaldeiraG

10:04

Comment Thingies

All about comments on IPS

Ælis

@CaldeiraG Oh right, but that's a temporary one (not expected to stay "forever")

CaldeiraG

@Ælis Oh i see, seems pretty "active"

Tinkeringbell

There's a room for moderating this room, and a room for moderators too... so that makes 5 for me to keep an eye on :) And that's without the rooms that are used to moderate over at MSE ;)

Journeyman Geek

@avazula Its just as bad if a woman tells a woman she can't suffer that much either

Ælis

@JourneymanGeek Yep, but that's not mansplaining ^^

Journeyman Geek

10:08

Wrong is wrong ;p

avazula

@HugoZink now I need to tell you: I stepped back from the manspreading question because I disagreed with the need of removing the word. I won't explain why here unless you'd like to, but since I disagreed with the other mods and regular users and couldn't make myself very clear on as to why I wasn't okay with that, I stepped back of this one. -TBC

Hugo Zink

Or if a woman tells a guy that getting hit in the balls can't be that bad, although I was getting to that too. I'd like to wait until they finish typing the whole thing out as otherwise things get confusing for both.

Journeyman Geek

the right thing to do is ask the poor dear if there's anything I can do to help

cause we are civilised empathic people.

Ælis

@JourneymanGeek At least, the woman in question will have experience with their own period when the man doesn't even have that

Journeyman Geek

@Ælis true

though transman might indicate uhm

some potential experience when stuck in assigned gender.

avazula

10:09

@JourneymanGeek I specifically mentioned cismen for this reason

Journeyman Geek

oh

my bad

I misread and I probably shouldn't make excuses for it

avazula

I try to be nice and respectful to people of all genders :)

Journeyman Geek

I can be an idiot sometimes ;p

3

Ælis

comment-pls | need backup | interpersonal.stackexchange.com/a/22997/21067

(I rather not interact with this user)

avazula

However, as AElis pointed out, nothing was decided on that meta post. That question you suggested an edit on is old, the heated discussion about it since long over, and I believe they deliberately used that word to describe a sociological phenomenon that we need to abolish in order to reach equality, not to insult cismen or anything alike. - TBC

Mithrandir

10:13

avazula

If it was posted a few days ago, I wouldn't have refused that edit because refusing to remove the term would have seemed like deliberately trying to piss people off, and cutting the word off would have been less bad than letting people feminism is about women willing to take power over men. I hear this way too often, and it hurts my feelings: all that feminists want is equality among all genders (well, except TERFs, but they're not feminists to me). -TBC

long story short: I thought it was right to talk about mansplaining in that post, sure it did raise some heated conversation but it's been over for a long time, and removing the word now would have seem like dismissing what's a sad reality for a lot of people. Now if you disagree with this decision I'm open to discussion.

:)

Ælis

A little cuteness after all those heavy talks (it was nice to read your very complete response @ava, thank you :) )

Hugo Zink

Thanks for your detailed answer! I don't want to argue too much about this little thing, but some things came to mind:

Behavior similar to "mansplaining" is not necessarily exclusive to men. Regarding your "period pain" example, I've been told by women that getting hit in the balls would not hurt any more than getting hit anywhere else. I have also been told that some of my problems don't matter because I am perceived as a male (such as a lack of domestic violence resources for men, which in the US is partially *caused* by feminist initiatives like the VAWA or Duluth Model).

Wow that turned into a wall of text, oops.

avazula

huh. Lots of interesting on which to bounce back :p

I'll try to rephrase what you said (so that you can confirm whether I got you right) and give my opinion about it, if that's okay

Hugo Zink

10:29

Sure

CaldeiraG

@Ælis Thanks @Ælis, super cute :D

Ælis

@CaldeiraG :D Feel free to share your own cute pictures if you have some, I do love cuteness :D

avazula

@HugoZink text overflow coming:

« Cismen aren't the only ones to dismiss things they know nothing about » : true. They are ciswomen claiming a kick in the balls isn't that painful. That is, to me, a bad thing to do and they shouldn't do it. Why does the term mansplaining exist is because we're talking about a phenomenon that is justified by the societal system (aka, we live in a world were men are raised thinking they're the one who need to work, bring money home, like mechanics, and women should raise the kids and do the household... you get the idea. Men are told to take care of all the productive, lucrative work and wo…

and also something I wanted to ask you: why did you want to edit the mansplaining part of the question but left the one that talks about racism, which is also a systemic oppression of a population against another one? To me that's the same kind of issues, but I'm curious to know whether you think they are different.

Hugo Zink

10:48

I'll address your last point first since it has the easiest answer: I didn't mean to, and I must have missed it.

"white people are not oppressed by society and the system like people of color are."

Disclaimer: this might be true in Europe and North America (you're speaking from your own perspective). Things aren't so simple when you compare it over the whole world.

I would also like to argue that men and women are both oppressed under one system. I think it's unfair to generalize this as "men oppress women".

I also do think anti-white racism exists in the US and Europe. It's just not necessarily "systemic" and is mostly perpetrated by fairly insignificant individuals.

In response to policies like the Duluth Model: "It's not feminism"

Fair enough, but you should realize that they *do* call themselves feminists, and base their entire reasoning on feminist theory.

I think a giant feminist organization with a lot of funding and a lot of political sway is a better representation of the movement than a random individual saying "hey, not real feminism".

I'm an advocate of bigger seats as a 6'5 person myself, but sadly they would rather save a few dollars and make everything as small as they can.

As someone who presents male myself, I think it's not fair to say that we aren't oppressed under the same system. A lot of issues that men face have similar equivalents for women, and vice-versa. Two separate gender-specific issues often have one underlying cause.

CaldeiraG

11:35

@Ælis I don't have much cuteness on my phone :p

self promoting his answer on Lifehacks.SE

Ælis

@HugoZink But at least you are paid more. And you don't get sexualy assault as often. And you are less likely to be killed by your lover

avazula

I'm sorry, I was on my lunch break and I'm gonna go get my new car. I'd love to continue this discussion in a dedicated room when I return if you want to :)

Hugo Zink

11:51

@Ælis overall I'm much more likely to be killed in a violent crime, however.

I'm also not paid more, since I am under 29 and childless. Women in the same category as me earn more than I do on average. If I had to guess, it's because they get college degrees slightly more often.

I'm also not entirely convinced that a wage gap exists due to sexism, but I'm not up to date enough on the matter to back that up with sources.

Ironically, this is exactly what I meant with people telling me "Yeah, but women have it worse in X area".

Tinkeringbell

Okay, both of you: Do note that you're from completely different countries ;) The Netherlands are often doing pretty much better at this stuff than France.

Then you're both on different sides of this too, which might only make the differences seem worse to you than to the other.

Hugo Zink

Oh, right. Is the cultural difference really that big? The countries seem so close and they're both in the EU

I have never been in France so I wouldn't know

Tinkeringbell

@HugoZink ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/… There's definitely differences. Note how France in some cases isn't even on the tables, because 'data is not available'. Now, if things like that would be a bit more important, they would probably have data ;)

We're close to France on the 'unadjusted' scheme, but if you correct for several things, we're not doing all that bad...

Hugo Zink

12:07

Interesting

Although I should mention that a gross earnings gap does not necessarily indicate that the entire gap can currently be attributed to sexism. I say "currently", because even if opportunities were perfectly equal right now (and that's a big if), the data wouldn't start reflecting that properly until a few generations from now

Tinkeringbell

> There are two distinct numbers regarding the pay gap: unadjusted versus adjusted pay gap. The latter takes into account differences in hours worked, occupations chosen, education and job experience. For example, someone who takes time off (e.g. maternity leave) will likely not earn as much as someone who does not take time off from work.

Hugo Zink

Oh i had missed that, whoops.

Tinkeringbell

I think most news articles here focus on how females still work less than males, and on getting that right/better (it's apparently better for the economy if your work force is bigger, so they want to include all females and just raise babies in day care ;) )

Hugo Zink

A bit of a tangent, but I really hope the trend will shift towards fewer hours of work for all. The trend of overwork culture in some sectors is very worrying

People putting in 70 hour work weeks and sacrificing their own health

Tinkeringbell

Yeah, shorter work weeks sound very nice :) Though I don't do much overwork and I won't ;)

Hugo Zink

12:12

Yeah, same. I'm not obligated to stay late thankfully

Ideally I'm hoping to move closer to a 30 hour workweek

Tinkeringbell

Would be nice if that were possible... Or just make 4 9-hour days, that would be my ideal.

Preferably 2-day off-2-weekend!

scohe001

12:25

@Tinkeringbell my old job did this actually! They called it a "9/80 schedule." We'd work 9hr days and get every other Friday off (and the Friday's we did work were only 8hr days)

Tinkeringbell

@scohe001 Ohh, nice!

Most companies here just let you work 36 each week and then only pay for 36 ;)

scohe001

That 9th hour every day always sucks tho :/

Huh that's interesting too

Tinkeringbell

But that's also very close to parttiming ;)

My brother does it. Days at the zoo are long (but fast, and I never heard him complain they suck :P). So the zoo hires people to make 36 hours each week.

And then you can also have teams overlap a little, so they can share information easily.

Rainbacon

@HugoZink Yeah, that's been an issue that I've had to watch very carefully as I've been searching for a job

Had one job that I declined to interview for after I found out the CEO was one of those "I work 100 hours a week" type of person

Tinkeringbell

13:02

@Rainbacon 100? Run, run while can!

Rainbacon

@Tinkeringbell Like I said, I had an interview scheduled and when I read that, promptly cancelled it

Since the company had a few thousand reviews from current for former employees on glassdoor, and 70-80% of them mentioned a lack of work/life balance. I assumed that it was probably not the right place for me

Tinkeringbell

13:18

@Rainbacon Sounds about right ;)

Rainbacon

It's a tricky issue to navigate while looking for a job

A J

@Rainbacon I got a call from company like a thousand times, but I told them that I am not interested for the same reason.

Tinkeringbell

I'm going to have a discussion with my manager about that next week (work/life balance). It's a bit hard for me to work for a company that lets me work for a client, but then expects me to spend well... several hours?... each week doing stuff for them too :/

A J

It doesn't even have 5 days working system.

Rainbacon

I feel similarly. I am expected to do my 40 hours a week of work billable to a client and then an additional 5-10 hours on top of that for my company (technically I'm supposed to "grow myself", but I take issue with listing my time working on personal projects after they rolled out their new policy last year about how anything I do on their time, property, or using anything related to my job belongs to them)

Tinkeringbell

13:23

Yep. I have several 'groups': managerial unit, other company people working for same client unit, female unit, young unit, young people working utilities unit... you're supposed to take training every once in a while, listen in to calls, be present at meetings ... I can't keep up!

Rainbacon

Yes, but don't you know. That company cares about you and your growth, and you'll never find that at any other company, so you should be grateful that you have all of those things </sarcasm>

A J

I sometimes think of handling my own family business instead of this job, but I feel like I'll be an extra person there.

Tinkeringbell

@Rainbacon If there was a way to get rid of the company and just start working for the client, I'd do it immediately.

Rainbacon

Ooh, come work for my company. The client I'm working on has hired 3 of our people in the last year

Tinkeringbell

13:41

Sounds good! But I guess the travel distance would be a bit much for me ;)

Kaspar Scherrer

once again I was led to IPS through HNQ. I think it's great that ips is included there again!

hello fellow interpersonal people

Tinkeringbell

Hah! It's a trap, you can't escape us! :)

Good seeing you back. How's life?

Kaspar Scherrer

life is great, I really cant complain

brb, 5 min xD

Rainbacon

Hi @KasparScherrer good to see you again

Kaspar Scherrer

@Rainbacon hey Rainbacon!

Rainbacon

13:56

@Tinkeringbell Yeah, they allow remote work, but you'd be working with people in 4 different US timezones, so the timing would be pretty tough

Tinkeringbell

@Rainbacon Night shifts ;)

avazula

Woop woop! I'm now the scared owner of a new car!

well, the scared new owner of a car rather

Kaspar Scherrer

@avazula or the owner of a scared car? hi @avazula!

avazula

@KasparScherrer maybe? :D long time no see! Hope you're doing great, German speaking friend!

Kaspar Scherrer

@avazula yes I am doing very fine! I moved in with my fiancée (!) and I have reconnected to several friends of earlier times. I am deeply content right now. How are you?

avazula

14:04

@KasparScherrer ooh, couple of great news then! Congrats on the fiançailles

Kaspar Scherrer

merci

avazula

Well, since last time we talked I guess I changed jobs (now back at working in healthcare, yay!), I started a rock band, I moved out of my old and noisy building for a house in the countryland and I just bought a new car lol. The old one was breaking down every few weeks...

Kaspar Scherrer

nice! what instrument do you play? or are you the singer?

avazula

Oh, and I became a mod also :O

I sing there, although I started music with playing the guitar. Aspiring to learn bass now!

Kaspar Scherrer

yeah I voted for you 😀 how does it feel being a mod?

avazula

14:07

blushes

Well... it certainly is work. we should get paid :D

Kaspar Scherrer

haha yeah I get that.
whats the name of your band, and do you do gigs?

avazula

joke aside, it's great. It's taught me a lot about reading between the lines and trying to explain my decisions and points of view too. I love that we can all work together at building a nice community, which is amazing because we have quite some community users that do a greta job at it!

El'endia Starman

@avazula Oh man, I am looking forward to 8 years worth of backpay. :P

avazula

@KasparScherrer We're called "Les Infras" (the infrastructures en Français dans le texte, it's a joke referring to the fact that we were all network engineers when we started it)

No gig yet, but soon I guess :D we were close of performing at Music's Festival last June 21th but our set list was a bit short.

Kaspar Scherrer

sounds cool :)

avazula

14:11

@El'endiaStarman After WHERE IS MY DIAMOND?, here comes WHERE IS MY MONEY?!

Kaspar Scherrer

I assume you have some songs about IT topics?

avazula

@KasparScherrer yeah, life's been good on me too :) still working as a Java backend dev?

@KasparScherrer nah, we solely do reworks :) basic famous rock songs, The Pixies, The Cranberries, The Killers ...

Kaspar Scherrer

@avazula you remember that? wow. yup still am, and I still love it.

JAD

@avazula reworks? You mean covers?

avazula

@JAD oh, right! I couldn't find the word, thanks :)

Rainbacon

14:16

@avazula @KasparScherrer Java sounds nice. I miss having types :(

avazula

@KasparScherrer heh, I'm full stack now so yeah I remember ;) I do serverless python for BE though

@Rainbacon ugh, I hate Java lol

Rainbacon

But it has types

Kaspar Scherrer

@Rainbacon types can be a curse sometimes. but mostly it's godly

avazula

@Rainbacon hehe. So does Python O:)

Kaspar Scherrer

generic types are a godsend

Rainbacon

14:19

@avazula Python types are more like a kid dressed up as a type for halloween

2

avazula

@Rainbacon you miss C++ don't you

scohe001

@Rainbacon I'm ded

Kaspar Scherrer

hi ded

Rainbacon

@avazula Yes I do

avazula

I'm Elfo? :p

Kaspar Scherrer

14:20

@avazula xDDD

Rainbacon

But also I'd love to do some professional Haskell dev if I could

avazula

yeah, I saw your project pitch for the bot :)

JAD

@Rainbacon wait till you see R's types

avazula

Thank you for flagging kind sir @scohe

That brings me to 269 deleted comments this month

JAD

> class("bla")
[1] "character"
> x <- 1
> class(x)
[1] "numeric"
> class(x) <- "character"
> class(x)
[1] "character"
> x
[1] "1"

scohe001

14:22

I gotchu<3

JAD

"types" in R

avazula

679 comments handled by mods so far for this month

scohe001

Looks like Python @JAD

Mithrandir

that seems low

JAD

> class(x) <- "something very inappropriate"
> class(x)
[1] "something very inappropriate"

@scohe001 it's a bit like python, but then it's not

scohe001

14:26

@JAD oh gosh that reminds me of a "prank" we used to pull on our friends in college. We'd stick True, False = False, True in one of the professor-given files that they import and then watch as they struggle to debug their previously working code (Python allows reassignments of the True and False keywords)

JAD

python at least has the semblance of defined classes

like, a class is an object you can attach a bunch of methods to

for R, the class is whatever label is tacked on to an object, through class<-()

scohe001

Oh what the heck

JAD

and some generic methds, like print can then have customized definitions

like print.numeric, print.character, print.something.very.inappropriate

> `print.something very inappropriate` <- function(a){print(10)}
> `print.something very inappropriate`(x)
[1] 10

Rainbacon

@scohe001 What kind of a monster designed that?

JAD

remember:

> x == 1
[1] TRUE

the amount of hackery that's possible with R

scohe001

14:31

@Rainbacon I feel like the whole python language is just one big ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

JAD

@scohe001 hmm, R doesn't allow that, but it does allow you to override the shorthands T and F.

which is nice when golfing if you need a counter

F=F+1

because of course False is implicitly castable to 0.

(I think Python does this too)

@scohe001 hey:

>>> False+=1
  File "<stdin>", line 1
SyntaxError: can't assign to keyword

deception!

maybe python3 vs 2?

scohe001

When you do False = True, you creating a new variable named False in the global scope that shadows the False keyword (and you could do del False to bring it back)

So the += fails because you can't actually reassign the keyword. Just shadow it :p

JAD

nope

>>> False=False+1
  File "<stdin>", line 1
SyntaxError: can't assign to keyword

scohe001

Oh I lied

They just took this out in 3

Boo

JAD

like I said, Python is relatively sane

scohe001

14:37

That's sad :(

Rainbacon

14:58

Ah, well I'm glad this went away with python 3

El'endia Starman

me too lol

Rainbacon

oh man, I just got 2 emails from confluence, The first was because someone replied to a comment that I wrote. The second was because that person @ pinged me in their reply to my comment

Top notch UX

scohe001

15:30

Oh @Ava on this one I would've left Em's comment about why it was off-topic. I think that was probably valuable in case OP or someone else comes along to try to fix the post. When I flagged it I meant everything at and below the flag. I'll specify more next time :p

Em C

@scohe001 you mean AJ? ;) I'll go ahead and undelete a few, I agree leaving some explanation about closing is helpful

.. ok the interface makes it hard to see which comment you actually flagged, but does that look ok?

scohe001

Ahem. My bad. I get y'all in the short username club mixed up every now and then :p

Em C

haha :)

scohe001

Oh I think anything outside of AJ's should go--it all seems like discussion of site policy to me. But I don't think it's hurting anything to leave it either so meh

Em C

lol welp

idk, on a closed question I'm alright with a little discussion of site policy, because that way OP can learn and voters can make a more informed decision

scohe001

15:48

Fair enough. I can get onboard with that

JPhi1618

16:15

@scohe001, Thanks for pointing out the meta discussion. I generally don't look through post edit histories, as you can imagine.

scohe001

Oh I didn't even notice you in here. I would've just pinged you instead of leaving a comment :p

JPhi1618

Makes sense, but not seeing that word seemed like a glaring omission, so I think you'll get more comments on it. Might want to leave my comment as an example.

scohe001

No worries, I definitely wouldn't have known either

JPhi1618

I just joined - I don't stay in many chat rooms but I like to use the ones that actually have people in them when I need it.

DIY is my highest rep site, and that room is a ghost town, lol.

scohe001

We also discussed it a few times in chat with the OP if you wanted some more background on where the decision came from: chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/51734210#51734210

@JPhi1618 ahh that's a bummer. Idk what I'd do without all the wonderful regulars we have in here

JPhi1618

16:20

Cool, thanks for the context. I'm in the "it's a funny term" crowd. The NYC subway had the posters/signs that were placed by the transit authority so I didn't realize it was at all controversial. But I do get that this site (probably more than others) needs to be careful, and HNQ brings out the crazies.

scohe001

Huh that's kind of funny that there are official posters with the term. Personally I'd never heard it before this question (but then I've always lived in places without good public transport)

JPhi1618

It was a few years ago. I thought it was funny at the time. The girls in the office I was in all lamented at what a problem it is.

Anyway, nice to talk to you.

scohe001

16:36

To you too!

Em C

16:53

bleh, I need to come up with a good "your answer isn't adding anything new" comment..

ha @Ælis beat me to it, problem solved ;)

scohe001

> O.M.G. That advice is sooooooo last year, [username]

Oh, nvm then

Ælis

@EmC Hehe :p

Em C

@scohe001 like, totallyyyy

scohe001

Lol

Also I have a pretty radical take on our comment situation that I'd love to get some feedback on if y'all are looking for something to disagree with :p (interpersonal.meta.stackexchange.com/a/3819/11811)

And with that I'm off to lunch~

Em C

@scohe001 running away, huh :P

I have opinions but I need to think about how to say them before commenting haha. first reaction: not a fan because I don't wanna have to moderate (potentially) dumpster fire chatrooms

Ælis

17:07

@scohe001 Sounds like a terrifying idea. There is no way in hell, I'll volunteer to moderate such a chatroom ^^

(PS: I hope I wasn't too strong in my meta answer?)

Em C

I started writing up my own answer to that meta, I would be happy with more post chatrooms but honestly it's tricky to figure out when that's actually going to be used / useful

just yesterday I deleted yet another back-and-forth on an answer, which was actually civil and I would've considered making a chat ... except it ended up with one of the users saying they were too tired to explain more, so what's the point

and of course there's been more comments since. but they're not really discussing, just "this answer is bad" or "+1 same"

so I do feel justified in not having moved those to chat, but would it have actually helped divert those later comments? idk

Ælis

@EmC Maybe it would have helped divert those later comments, but then, we might have end-up with comments like "this answer is bad" hanging around in obscure chatrooms that aren't really moderated (which doesn't sound really good to me, but I might be over cautious)

Em C

17:23

@Ælis agreed, I don't think it's super useful to leave that in chats. It's not productive (that's why we delete those types of comments!), and most people aren't ever going to read it anyways. better to write your own answer / vote accordingly

it'd be great for if people want to actually discuss and talk about "here's my experience why this answer is bad", "oh interesting, I think that is bad because xyz, that's why abc", and people are exchanging ideas

but.. not just a bunch of people dropping "this answer sucks" in a random chat

Ælis

@EmC Actually, if people are talking about that, I rather have it in a proper answer

Em C

@Ælis true, this was a quickly contrived example ;)

Ælis

Do you know for what kind of conversation other SE site move comments to chat?

Em C

that's a good question... I'm not sure

I wonder how often people actually use the auto-generated prompt to open a chatroom, too

Ælis

No idea ^^ Changing subject, here is your chance to leave a comment: interpersonal.stackexchange.com/a/22998/21067 :p

Em C

17:38

@Ælis oh hooray... :P

Ælis

I know, I'm too nice x)

Jasper van Looij

Just like me. =)

scohe001

18:31

@Ælis maybe if I didn't know you better. But I figured it was just a knee-jerk response to the idea of hoarding masses of controversial, rude messages :p

@EmC don't blame you in the slightest for not wanting that. But--correct me if I'm wrong--don't chat flags that are raised get looked at by all mods? Not just those on the site? Or am I pulling that out of nowhere?

Ælis

So, I bit too strong but, at least, you didn't take (too) badly ^^'

@scohe001 That's true. And also by people having more than 10k rep network wide

scohe001

Nah, I knew it was a far out standpoint going in, so I expected stuff like that :)

Ælis

Well, at least you suggested something (unlike me). It's better to have more suggestions than none

scohe001

18:53

I guess. I mean it's a difficult problem. I think our answer lies somewhere in chat, but I'm not sure how we'll do it

I worry that if we continue the way we are, we'll only alienate more and more people

Rainbacon

@scohe001 I definitely understand that worry, but (unfortunately I don't have anything to follow the but, but I know there is a but)

scohe001

LOL your but is appreciated<3

Thank goodness we're in chat so that can't be taken the wrong way

ankii

interpersonal.stackexchange.com/review/suggested-edits/18223 <-about removing the person's physical condition which IMO wasn't relevant

@Rainbacon OP didn't like this edit suggestion.

Rainbacon

I definitely think that expanding our user base is a problem that IPS has been faced with for a while. Every so often as I think about ways we can solve that problem, I come to the conclusion that we moderate things pretty hard and I think that's a huge newcomer painpoint, but it's hard to say "yeah, we should just ease up"

@ankii Hmm, I thought it was a really good edit. Gotta run to a meeting, but we can talk more in a bit

ankii

cool

Upper_Case

19:02

I feel as though the goals that have been hammered out for how IPS should work are at odds with how people assume it probably works, or how they personally want it to work

Ælis

@Rainbacon I'll argue that, if it wasn't for HNQ, we could ease up. But HNQ is what's bringing more people so... :/

Upper_Case

That tension is unlikely to just go away on its own, and is the reason we need/have such heavy moderation (relative to other SE sites)

Ælis

@Upper_Case Same feeling here

scohe001

@Rainbacon I've been having the same thoughts. I definitely don't think we should ease up on moderation, but I think trying to create outlets for the kinds of actions users are trying to take would be interesting. If for no other reason than to see just what we're trying to protect ourselves from. It'd be a pleasant surprise if everyone can stay civil while having the discussions they want to have

Upper_Case

As much as anything, I get the impression that people who cause "problem" comments and answers want a way to respond to things they don't agree with and feel heard and validated. It seems implausible to me that we'll be able to provide that

scohe001

19:04

@Upper_Case 110% agree with this. And yet no matter how many comments we delete, "hello network visitors!" comments we make, meta answer we write and answers we downvote, comment on, and delete, people continue to assume we work a different way.

Ælis

@scohe001 I would rather invite them in the main chatroom in a first time, though (so has to have more people keeping an eye on it)

@Upper_Case Yep, definitively agree with that too. Maybe you should wrote a meta answer

scohe001

@Ælis ooh there's a thought

Upper_Case

@Ælis I'll think about it and see if I can come up with something that seems useful. My rule-of-thumb is to assume that, when I think a situation might be hopeless, I'm just not clever and creative enough to perceive possible solutions

Ælis

Here Comes a Thought - Steven Universe Clip + Lyrics | Mindful Education

►

(sorry couldn't resist ^^)

scohe001

Lol I love it

Em C

19:49

@scohe001 yes, all mods and 10k+ users see flags. but... there is an expectation that mods will tend to their own site's chatrooms. so if other mods see "this chatroom is generating a bunch of flags" and it looks iffy to them, they often freeze it and then ping the mods on that site to decide what to do about it

(sorry for delay, just got out of an extra long meeting)

scohe001

Oh yikes

That could give IPS a bad rap too

Em C

yeah :/

Upper_Case

@scohe001 You mean "worse rap", I assume

Em C

and I mean part of the reason they'd refer it to site mods is because if things are escalated and people are behaving badly, we might need to mod-message / suspend

so it makes sense from a logistical standpoint as well as a "local culture" standpoint

but don't get me wrong I'm glad you wrote that answer, this is some good discussion :D

@ankii I agree this seems like an improvement but ... idk, I'm not going to comment further there. the answer just seems very "forum-y" to me, I don't see how it is adding any new solution

Rainbacon

20:05

@ankii Here are my thoughts on your edit that got rejected. I thought that what you removed was completely noise and it was a good edit. Since it's not objectionable content (profanity, etc) there's not point in arguing with the OP about it. I personally think it makes their answer worse, but if that's what they want...

scohe001

20:19

@Upper_Case heyyy other communities don't see us that poorly, do they?

Upper_Case

@scohe001 I haven't done a survey or anything, but the general opinion strikes me as poor

Users still get referred to IPS for appropriate questions, but those referrals often come with caveats to... let's say, manage expectations

scohe001

@EmC hmm that all makes sense. I wonder if warning the other mods we're trying this would help. But I completely understand the hesitation

@Upper_Case oh yikes. That's a bummer :/

Upper_Case

It's likely to fade as the site matures, I think

scohe001

Hopefully

Upper_Case

It's the sort of thing where one (perceived) negative experience echoes around in a person's mind for a while

Upper_Case

20:38

There, I took a shot at meta

Ideally it will prompt a huge flood of comments intended to do a wide variety of things

scohe001

Are there any other kind of comments? :p

Upper_Case

Off the top of my head I can think of Hailey's Comment, but that only comes by every 74 years or so

Em C

@Upper_Case I like your conclusion ;D

Rainbacon

@Upper_Case +1000 for "I firmly believe that the bulk of our comment issues are just symptoms of other problems, and often it is those problems that lead people to use comments inappropriately."

Ælis

@EmC Haha x)

Rainbacon

20:50

Also, random thought on how to achieve #3 in upper_case's post: We build a tool (that we appropriately call "the void") that we can link people to. The tool would be a form where the user can enter the comment that they want, and watch as it "collects" upvotes (we'll just give a random number of upvotes that come in over time). The comments will never actually be shown to other users, but the poster can have their ego boosted.

We shall refer to this process as "screaming into the void"

Ælis

That's a very nice meta post @Upper_Case, thank you for taking the time to write it

Upper_Case

Thanks for the feedback on my meta post everyone, I hope it's useful

Em C

@Rainbacon sold. where's the kickstarter

Rainbacon

For phase two we can train a chatbot to respond to the messages and call it "the void screams back"

Upper_Case

I'd bet we could get away with a pretty weak chatbot, too:

"I understand and sympathize with your concerns, [user]"

Rainbacon

20:59

We could probably just hook it up to the ips comment bot responses for long messages that scohe recently implemented

Ælis

"[user] +1 exactely what I was going to say"

And if people also wants to argue with each other: "[user] -1, you are just thinking about yourself, you should be ashamed!"

Rainbacon

Ooh, then we can hook it up to a robot arm that will hit them on the nose with a rolled up newspaper

Ælis

x)

ElizB

hi. TGIF. so tired.

Em C

hi!

so close to the weekend

scohe001

21:13

So close and yet so far :(

ankii

@EmC well someone upvoted it.. It had -2 when I edited it, without mine that. But fine.. I dont read such long answers anywhere even if the thing concerns me.

Ælis

@scohe001 discreatly hide there european head

ankii

@Rainbacon yeah, but a mod could overwrite it in the name of clutter or anything that answers are ruled by. Patrix leaves a comment after overriding, asking why did you rollback/reject in the first place.

scohe001

@Ælis pshh just means your Monday is coming sooner :p

Em C

@ankii eh, them's the breaks. it doesn't look to me like engaging further is going to be productive

ankii

21:19

True that Off for a latte

Upper_Case

shrug I don't know why he's so resistant to labelling it as a partial frame challenge

But a latte usually helps with life generally, I find

ankii

I dont know why it doesnt go italics

Em C

@ankii no formatting in multi-line messages :'(

ankii

@Upper_Case thoughts about cappuccino vs latte?

\o\

mannn I Definitely need one.

Upper_Case

21:36

I'm usually more on the latte side, but it depends on my mood

In the afternoon, it's espresso all the way (if I can get it)

Extroverted Main Man

22:17

0

Q: Is my girlfriend ungrateful?

I’m 24, and my girlfriend is 20. We are dating for just over a year and have been living together for around 10 months. I’m working full-time in a company. On top of that I also do freelancing stuff after I get back home, so my time is really limited. I’m the one paying for the flat and bills. ...

relationships money acceptable-behavior life-partner

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