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12:08 AM
Q: Opinions on current work space conditions

PedrinoSo I'm currently an international (latin) grad student at some US university and wanted to know opinions regarding my current work space situation. I share an office with another 2 Chinese grad students, that part is fine. Two professors access their offices going through ours and one of them is...

12:28 AM
Q: How to handle unwanted touching from my daughters father(my ex)

CyndieSo I left my daughters father during the pregnancy because we where having many issues and things with him were not changing. It's been a year since I moved back to my moms and left him and my daughter is 8months. After my daughter was born i granted him the right to visit her daily but that came...

5 hours later…
5:31 AM
6 messages moved to Trash
5:42 AM
6:36 AM
Morning ;)
7:00 AM
Morning :p
2 hours later…
8:52 AM
Silently waving hello
Hello :)
How's parttime work going?
Very nicely, thanks for asking :)
Glad to hear :)!
Also, we had a time building day yesterday and it was exhausting (but nice) so I'm very glad I will only be working 5h30 today ^^
And you, how are you?
Good :) So far work is going better, I picked out a kitchen last week, I'll be having the other talk about things like bathroom tiles Thursday... Just a bit nervous, because my company manager has decided he wants to meet and talk with me and the client's scrum master/product owner. I think it's just a meeting to get to know each other, but at the same time I'm worried a bit it's more.
9:03 AM
Nice for the house thing! Also, ouch for the meeting, I always hate this kind of stuff (too much stress in advance even if things usually turn just fine). Don't you have a way to ask what the meeting will be about?
Not really, no. But my scrum master said everything is basically fine, so ;)
Well then, good luck dealing with your anxiety until then, then :)
(there is way too many "then" in this sentence)
@Ælis Thank you :) I'd rather call it nerves than anxiety though... anxiety sounds so serious!
It's not that bad ;)
@Tinkeringbell Glad too hear it's not that bad, anxiety is, indeed, no fun (and nervousness is a little better as you said)
9:19 AM
agree, put the notes somewhere until the end of the transaction — WendyG 1 min ago
#22962 WendyG (2762 rep) | A: Resolving conficts with customers as a waiter (score: 1) | posted 2 hours ago by ThisIsMe (111 rep) | Toxicity 0.07452742 | tps/fps: 0/0
Matched regex(es) ["chatty"]
9:46 AM
I am suspecting racism here, playing the national anthem on loop all day sounds very aggressive, nobody does that — WendyG 1 min ago
#22960 WendyG (2762 rep) | Q: How to handle a professor disrupting workspace peace? (score: 3) | posted 9 hours ago by Pedrino (16 rep) | edited 6 hours ago by Em C (10792 rep) | Toxicity 0.4354612 | tps/fps: 0/0
Matched regex(es) ["experimental-aic(@scohe001)"]
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@avazula Pff, you deleting comments before I can flag them is no fun ><
9:56 AM
interpersonal.stackexchange.com/q/22960/1599 might need a few eyes and perhaps some close-votes until clarified?
@Tinkeringbell Yep, that a bit too broad
(for now)
10:33 AM
Q: Countering manspreading while avoiding conflict

ÆlisI live in a big city (in France) and take public transportation every day. I'm perceived as a woman and I will sometimes sit near a man who is "manspreading". I find this behavior very rude and unpleasant and I would like the other person to stop taking so much space. However, I'm kind of shy an...

@ExtrovertedMainMan Judging by the "-1" it already has, this one will probably be hard to moderate ^^
@Ælis care to just get rid of the word manspreading, and talking about people taking up more than one seat? ;)
@Tinkeringbell It would feel wrong to me :/ After all, this is manspreading and I believe the "men/women" dynamic to be important. It sounds wrong to me to avoid using a word to protect men sensitivity when they are the ones doing something wrong
But yeah, just wait for a few more comments like then and I might change my mind
@Boodri "A has specifically come to me to tell me they’re planning to invite B rather than simultaneously inviting us both and letting B decline. But A wouldn’t ask me to pay anything, just let me know the situation and I end up back in my habit." Sounds like A knows that they don't need to ask you to pay anything. If you said "Sorry. I'm busy that day, but you two have fun", would A pay for B, or just cancel the whole thing? — Chronocidal 1 min ago
#22949 Chronocidal (331 rep) | Q: How to convey to the people around me that I want to disengage myself from constant giving? (score: 18) | posted 34 hours ago by Boodri (93 rep) | edited 12 hours ago by Boodri (93 rep) | Toxicity 0.20887937 | tps/fps: 0/0
Matched regex(es) ["possible-aic"]
@Ælis Hmm. I think you can still include that you've only had to deal with men so far, and manspreading is basically just sitting and taking up more than 1 seat. Why do you feel the dynamic is so important though, what makes this different from a woman piling over onto another seat? Is it the interaction that follows? Is your personal bubble a bit bigger when around strange men instead of women? Is it that you struggle more/are more anxious of talking to strange men?
10:47 AM
@Tinkeringbell Men makes me more anxious. I wouldn't mind so much asking a women to take less space because I would be far less afraid of conflict. Also, I think I would mind less a women leg touching mine than a men leg
:) That's a good thing to put in there, I think. Also, I'd keep out the reference to the other woman: you don't know her relationship to the other man, perhaps they were close friends or she didn't mind that much?
@Tinkeringbell I know she didn't know the man but yeah, I can leave out the other woman thing (especially since it could make a different question)
@Ælis Cool :) Do you mind me giving this an edit, based on what we just talked about? :)
@Tinkeringbell I'm editing already but feel free to edit too when I will be done (it tell you when)
Cool :) I'll give it a try.
One thing you might think about while I'm editing: You said you considered a few phrasings that you deemed to confrontational, could you translate them to English and include them once I'm done?
10:59 AM
@Tinkeringbell It's now my lunch break, but I'll try to do to that this afternoon (but I believe that the problem was more about the tone than the words since I was angry and didn't trust myself to deliver the sentence calmly)
...that comment reads mockingly and is only gathering upvotes; I don't think leaving it is the best idea.
@Ælis Ah, yeah... Well, I gave it an edit now, see what you think of it. I think it makes it at least a little less inflammatory.
@Mithrandir Getting to it ;)
I would have been ready to ask those people verbally to stop taking so much place, but all the phrasings I could think of contained a high risk of creating a conflict. What phrases did you think about? — XtremeBaumer 30 secs ago
#22964 XtremeBaumer (3067 rep) | Q: How to ask people to not take up more than one seat on public transport by manspreading, while avoiding conflict? (score: -1) | posted 52 minutes ago by Ælis (8495 rep) | edited 6 minutes ago by Tinkeringbell (24596 rep) | Toxicity 0.09622
Matched regex(es) ["possible-aic"]
11:20 AM
@Ælis about your latest question, did you mean "male strangers"? "Strange men" would mean they're weird
Hahaha that was my edit :P feel free to correct that ;)
11:42 AM
@Tinkeringbell it's good to edit out a shouting "refrain from answer if you're a noob" note from a question even if it's a year old, right?
@ankii Hmmm. Are those the words used as written, or are you paraphrasing?
Which post?
well I did it, so even reverting would keep it on the home page
Hmm. Why are you asking here, and not on the apple site?
Our customs might differ.
11:44 AM
you were active..
It's a general thing I thought
Also I am trying to keep the ping pressure distributed, over different mods
Oh. Well, I'd rather not set policies for apple.se. ;)
You can ask this on their meta too, if it is rolled back. Otherwise, just assume you did a good thing.
Or at least didn't make people upset.
hmm that can be done..
one more reason was that I am not in a state of replying to the long chain of messages Mike left, so pinging them ignoring his messages would be weird
anyway thanks :)
Wow oh wow, i saw a sex-identity topic and have to butt in. I am genderless essentially but not apparently. I blame society.
I thought that my acquired country, USA, was at major fault but having touched base with my native Suomenlainen/Finnish relatives has convinced me that gender is seen as more definitive than other qualities.
(And yes, "gender" is a linguistic term but it sounds more literate than "sex")
Please learn from me, whether as a bad or good example. I've learned from the best and worst.
Okay, crickets. Thank you for not sloughing my ride this time.
12:13 PM
Q: What to do when your disrespectful unruly child refuses to go to school

Cat tibbsMy 16 year old son is disrespectful and very rude to me. Hes even called me a horrible mother. Today he was arguing with me about going to school. And telling me he does t want to go to school. He has a partime job he doesnt even work but one day. My son on a daily fights me about everything. ...

12:29 PM
@Tinkeringbell Thanks for the edit :)
You're welcome :)
12:53 PM
I strongly disagree about hitting them with your handbag or umbrella. In many parts of the world, that is assault. You don't have the right to assault people because they annoy you. — Hugo Zink just now
#13961 Hugo Zink (139 rep) | A: How do I deal with people being overly forward on the bus? (score: 0) | posted 502 days ago by gnasher729 (5873 rep) | edited 502 days ago by gnasher729 (5873 rep) | Toxicity 0.6858777 | Comment on inactive post | tps/fps: 0/0
Matched regex(es) ["chatty"]
1:05 PM
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@ankii it's rather rude, just edit.
(I saw you already did)
Ugh, my commute took a really long time today, but at least I was able to finish the podcast I was listening to :)
1:21 PM
That sounds good!
I'm still unsure about it. The host's voice was quite monotone
I'm expecting a slightly more busy commute this evening, as there's apparently no trains around Schiphol Airport. So I'm expecting some people to go to Amersfoort via Utrecht :/
@Rainbacon Oh, that may not be as nice to listen to, and focus on.
It may be perfect background noise though :)
It was a podcast about programming, so I didn't expect it to be the most engaging thing ever
Oh, perhaps :P Some things are very nice to listen to, though :)
Yeah, I listen to a podcast in the evenings about my favorite football team, and it's much more engaging
1:31 PM
The only podcasts I try to listen to are the SE ones, but even those are hard for me. I'm not made to just listen to information, I much prefer reading.
@Tinkeringbell Pretty much the same, hearing information is not for me too :p
@Tinkeringbell I had no idea you were that close to Amsterdam ...
@avazula Everything is close together here XD
Closer to Utrecht then?
For what it's worth, Utrecht is still 70 minutes from my home, by train ;)
1:40 PM
ooh, still far then
Amsterdam is pretty close to Utrecht, yes :)
@Tinkeringbell from what I remember that what I thought too :)
@avazula If there's no traffic, it's 25-30 minutes by public transport
it's like 20 mins by train I think?
A bit more. And almost 50 minutes by car still..
1:42 PM
27 mins*
from centraal to centraal
2:04 PM
@Ælis On the one hand I want to upvote your question because it sounds really interesting. On the other hand I hate the term mensplaining (see my answer why) so I want to downvote it. (I'm guessing the current downvotes are for that same reason.). You're correct that technically the meaning of that term perfectly describes the situation. But it looks like you're missing the negative connotation it has received when it's been used to mock men even in situations where they're not disturbing anyone
Have you tried just an "excuse me" as you sit down, to alert your seatmate they need to make room? — DaveG 32 secs ago
#22964 DaveG (6333 rep) | Q: How to ask people to not take up more than one seat on public transport by manspreading, while avoiding conflict? (score: 1) | posted 3 hours ago by Ælis (8521 rep) | edited 5 minutes ago by Ælis (8521 rep) | Toxicity 0.28329057 | tps/fps: 0/0
Matched regex(es) ["possible-aic"]
@IPSCommentBot fp
Marked this comment as caught incorrectly (fp). Currently marked 0tps/1fps
sounds like a valid clarification question to me :)
@Imus they're talking about manspreading, not mansplaining
2:09 PM
my point still stands
mansplaining has a far more negative connotation though
Quote from the wiki Ælis linked: "The practice of posting pictures of manspreading taken on subways, buses, and other modes of transportation online has been described as a form of public shaming. As an example, in New York, actor Tom Hanks was photographed on the subway, taking up two seats and criticized for it. He responded on a talk show, "Hey Internet, you idiot! The train was half empty! It was scattered – there was plenty of room!""
I struggle to see what Aelis did wrong here. They used the correct term for describing a situation in which a male-looking person takes voluntarily more space (since they don't move when being touched) than what is assigned to them
@ava read my answer on that question to see my point of view
And as I said: yes, the term perfectly describes the situation
@avazula I don't think Imus is accusing Ælis of doing anything wrong. He's merely stating that their post could be interpreted in a certain way
I think Imus is more thinking about the 'word' used to describe it. We can describe it as someone taking up more space than necessary, or we can use the word 'manspreading'. And it's true that 'manspreading' carries a more negative association, it is also used when people are taking up that space but not bothering anyone by it, while still 'claiming' these people are doing something wrong.

It's like I might put my backpack on the seat next to me on a half-empty train, because the floor is sticky and I don't want the dirty backpack... and someone would say I was bag-spreading ;)
2:16 PM
Also, I don't know that space is really "assigned" on public transit.
@Rainbacon Well, technically... you're only supposed to take up 1 seat. Otherwise, those signs saying you can't put your bag on another seat make no sense either!
Or the rule to keep your feet of the seat facing you ;)
Admittedly, I don't know how French trains are, but the subway in New York has benches and different people are going to take up different amounts of space based on the sizes of their bodies
@Rainbacon Yeah, think more like bus or train, with seats...
Not benches... I've seen those benches, those are different.
Something a bit more like this
And I can confirm it's very annoying to have people sit wide-legged, or just have a general human overflow sit next to you (I'm not skinny myself, though I do still fit in a single seat pretty well ;) )
Especially on hot days. I can imagine for Ælis it might be even worse.
2:23 PM
seat.assign(tallHuman); //Causes error - human overflow
<3 the term human overflow XD
Especially that it doesn't even have to imply overweight. Might just be a big fella that doesn't fit into the provided space
@scohe001 in case of human overflow, good luck try-catching that
@JAD I've heard you'll need a pretty big catch. That can be a 100+ kilo error
@Imus They can also sit in front of you... people with very long legs in front of you or next to you usually don't really fit comfortable in a bus seat.
Q: Why was my two comments censored?

SqaqI wrote a comment about this question: How to ask people to not take up more than one seat on public transport by manspreading, while avoiding conflict? I was basically reminding OP that not only men take extra space because OP's message was sexist. I think that sexism can be applied both ways ...

2:28 PM
@Tinkeringbell If someone in front of me I sometimes try to spread my legs even further so their's fit in between ... doesn't work well with strangers though ;)
Hi @AJ !
@Imus Yeah, but that's where your neighbour might get uncomfortable again :/
It's a hard thing, riding public transport :)
What's up?
@Tinkeringbell exactly why I wrote "spread out my legs as far as my surroundings let me" that way in my answer ^^,
2:30 PM
@Imus Hahaha but that usually means you end up touching the boundaries, right? Or are you making sure the seat is the boundary? ;)
@AJ Ælis asking a questions is what's up :)
@Tinkeringbell Ofcourse it is. Most often even directly sitting leg-to-leg cause I physically can't get mine out of the way ...
@AJ Don't get me wrong. It's a really nice question, except for one word :p
2:33 PM
@Imus I'm sorry if I offended you, that wasn't my intention at all
Not offended :)
@IntrovertedMetaMan More comments topics, bah :/
@Imus Yep. And that's when trouble starts, especially if people really, really dislike that touch.
I know :( So often don't have a choice on that ...
@Imus glad to hear :)
2:41 PM
@Ælis looking at the history of comments in the Closet, it seems the term "Manspreading" is causing quite some contention on your question. Especially since this is looking like it may hit HNQ, would it bug you if I edit it out? I think it explains things well, but I don't think it's necessary to explain the situation
wouldn't something like leg-spreading work? :p because people aren't happy with that word as it's targeting on men (even though it's not)
@scohe001 I don't want to edit it out. I'm using the correct term to describe a situation. I don't want to remove it to avoid "male tear" (no offense to you, I'm just talking generaly)
Even the wikipedia article is controversial about it
For the record, I bag-spread on an empty bus, am I good? :p
@CaldeiraG I bag spread and humanspread when a bus is empty too ^^ I just stop doing it as soon as someone might need the room
@Ælis Using that same reasoning means that you should have no issue with people using the "general he" instead of "they" right? Since it's technically the correct term to describe someone with unknown gender
(Note, I'm not angry nor do I feel attacked by your refusal to edit out the term manspreading, just trying to make my point clear)
2:50 PM
@Imus I won't answer to that as your question seems overly provocative to me and I don't want to argue and lose all my energy for that
FWIW I'd never heard the term until you used it here. In English, it's not how I've ever heard this described (which is--I believe--where some of the contention is coming from). That being said, it's your question and your call :)
The question isn't intended for you to answer here. It's to point out that even if the literal meaning of a word could mean it's perfectly valid to be used. There can still be a negative connotation about it that would mean it's better to avoid it instead
So just like I now use "they" when writing in english if I don't know the gender, I'm advising you, just like scohe is, to avoid the term "mansplaining" because it's being received negatively
@Imus manspreading... you keep messing the two up!
@scohe001 I'm a bit surprised that you haven't heard the term, though I guess you probably don't deal with public transit a great deal where you are
2:54 PM
@Ælis Same :)
But I agree with you both... while manspreading may be the very correct word to use, it's negative connotation is what is creating so much flak there... It reminds me a bit of the discussion here: interpersonal.meta.stackexchange.com/q/1384/1599
@Rainbacon That's a good point. Growing up in SoCal, public transportation was terribad. And now again in Texas it's still terribad lol
@Imus Question for you, as a non-native English speaker, how can you a treat person as 'they'? It's really confusing me and been a topic of recent discussion these days
I was just looking for the path of least comment flags lol but if @Ælis feels the term is a necessary part of the question, then it's a necessary part of the question. Simple as that :)
@scohe001 Thank you scohe :) Now I'm out, I have some TV show to watch :p
2:56 PM
@CaldeiraG I'm non native english as well. Looked weird initially to me too since in Dutch it's currently only "correct" to use the male singular form if it's unknown. Just accept that "they" is now also a word for singular person of unknown gender :)
@Ælis Which one? Please don't say Game of Thrones. ;P
After a while you'll get used to it
@Ælis Have fun! We'll try to nuke the comments before you get back
I'm off too. Got a 15km bike ride ahead of me ... and my ebike is broken down so I got to do it on my old bike -.-
@Rainbacon Thanks, I'm counting on that :p
@AJ Not sure yet, I'm trying korean love stories lately, I'll see if I find one up to my expectations :p
3:35 PM
@Ælis Korean love stories? Good. ;)
2 hours later…
5:44 PM
9 messages moved to Trash
So long, 9 messages
6:06 PM
Excellent meta answer @Upper
@scohe001 Thanks!
I always feel like I'm fussing at everyone when I post on meta
Nah I think as long as you stay objective you're good. And that one looks perfect to me
Also just saw your meta q. I think it'll be interesting to hear the community's take on that
@scohe001 I see you beat me to starting the related section, good ;)
Hehe I just stole your earlier link :p
Another one we have... interpersonal.meta.stackexchange.com/q/2776/1599. Though that's a very old can of worms I'd rather not entirely reopen, so I'll keep it out of the related section. I'll trust you to just read it and don't start stuff again :P
6:18 PM
@Tinkeringbell Oh dear, that was uh... an active week, to say the least
Oh boy. I definitely still remember that one O_o
@Rainbacon We had a lot of those, back then :P
Are you both old enough to remember that one? Wow... didn't really realize that :/
That was a couple months after I joined I believe
Hopefully we can avoid a resurgence of that. Yuck.
Yeah, my account was about 2 months old at the time
6:23 PM
Awww, you both were IPS toddlers! :P
I think this new question is in the same vein as that though. Just to a much lesser extent. Which is why I'm glad you've asked this meta question, Upper
@Tinkeringbell lol you're only 5 months older than me silly :p
@Upper_Case Yeah, that one got quite out of hand. But I think if you scroll down, there's a CM answer saying we did quite right there, so in the end, all good :)
@scohe001 Oh, but did I have a learning curve in those 5 months XD
Oh I'm sure. I remember a lot of meta contribution and comments everywhere--all before you were crowned mod
@scohe001 Honestly? I did end up getting a bit too fed up once XD
The hardest thing to learn was not to care ;)
Oh wait... I have a timeline somewhere, lemme look :P
I think I remember that actually. Super vaguely. Did you take a break at one point?
6:27 PM
> I made my first ever SE post on [July 23rd, 2017](https://interpersonal.stackexchange.com/q/775/1599).
My chat account was made on August 31st, 2017, and I still waited until [September 4th](https://chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/39804682#39804682) to post my first message.
On [October 29th](https://chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/40840854#40840854) I had managed to become the 'most active' person in the room, and was automatically appointed Room Owner.
On April 18th '18, that was followed up with a moderatorship on IPS.
@scohe001 Just for a week or so... until things exploded on meta again and I really really really wanted to shout at people again about not backing up their posts XD
@Tinkeringbell LOL that's the Tink we know and love :D
Judging by that timeline, my third diamond is long overdue :/
@scohe001 Awww :) You're welcome! XD
Dang. That whole timeline is much faster than I realized
Steep learning curve for sure
Yeah, that's why I wrote it down once XD
It all went really, really fast.
It's also crazy that IPS was your first SE site. I feel like everyone comes from SO in one way or another
6:30 PM
@scohe001 Oh, I did too :P My SO account is waaaay older. But I just made it to upvote something (only to realize you can only vote anonymously with 1 rep, and it won't give the other person points!)
SO for work, then the HNQ for commuting... then seeing IPS and posting my first question (about those commutes ;) )
Ahh that makes more sense. Still interesting that you posted here first instead of SO. I guess it's a good thing you did though :)
Have y'all ever checked the revision history of my first question? If not, go do so :P I ran into a bit of a language barrier there XD
@scohe001 Hahaha yeah, probably. I actually had a good teacher. He told us that stuff most likely already existed on SO for the first few years of our working lives, unless we got to work with a language we invented XD
@Tinkeringbell oof yea that's something that you'd have to be pretty familiar with the language to realize :/
@Tinkeringbell Dang I wish we had more of those in the world. And the fact that you're still employed shows that it worked :p
@scohe001 Welll.... I'm now working with a language that isn't on SO, has one or three questions on GIS.SE, and that's about it. That's... not ideal either, because I always have to disturb a coworker or figure things out on my own (and I do lean towards preferring the latter too much :P)
But I still have a job, that's true :P
Damn. I've always wondered what I'd do if I was working on some suuuuuper niche software like that where google would turn up literally nothing. I guess you just have to take thorough notes on everything your coworkers say?
6:38 PM
@scohe001 that's when you go directly into the source for the language and fix it yourself
"I'm missing a semi-colon at the end of the line?? Not if the language starts making that optional." -someone building Python, probably
They're technically optional in Javascript too.
/shiver/ everything is "technically optional" in Javascript
@scohe001 Notes, and learning how to use a class browser/guess the correct words to use for 'apropos' ;)
Each object has a method called apropos(), and e.g. apropos(:get) will get you all methods that include "get" somewhere in their name :P
(for that object)
Is apropos a dutch word? Wait...do y'all name all your variables and stuff in dutch?
6:48 PM
@scohe001 apropos is English too, I think? google.com/… ;)
I feel like apropos has a Latin origin since I've used it in English too. Never seen it in that context though.
RTFDictionary? :P
Huh. I've never heard that word before
Q: Provocative Words, Specificity, and IPS.SE

Upper_CaseIt's a very minor case which prompted my writing this question, but it's one that is likely to come up in the future. I'm sure it's come up in the past as well, but I didn't see any existing threads on it and the effective decision on the question in question made me curious about how we're going...

And it's got a silent S. I was completely pronouncing it wrong
6:50 PM
Wait, apropos has a silent S???
Looks like it from the google pronunciation. Unless I'm reading it wrong
Did I just have a really weird grammatical childhood that I'm somehow the only person here who knew that?
I've always thought it had a silent S... t
Yay! We're not weird @Rainbacon ;)
I mean....I've never heard the word, so...
@Rainbacon if your childhood had so much grammar that you can call it a "grammatical childhood," then yes :p
6:52 PM
@Tinkeringbell It's French: "a propos de..." equal "about..."
It's a silent S
@scohe001 I mean, I did read a lot as a child
. . . but it was txtspk
(argument over there)
@Rainbacon I did too. Fond memories of reading Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix in one day during a vacation.
6:54 PM
@Ælis I don't see an argument, it's just finger pointing.
@El'endiaStarman When you're familiar with it already, you can go through like the first four books in a single day.
@El'endiaStarman I never read Harry Potter actually.
@Mithrandir Oh yeah, the first four are quite a bit smaller. #5 was the first really chonky book.
I've skimmed through the entire series in a couple hours looking for a quote, but not processing anything that was passing in front of my eyes if it wasn't what I was looking for.
@Ælis I've got it... still really want to keep the manspreading term? I think we can make it clear that you're hesitant to confront male strangers on public transport about this without it :/
6:56 PM
@El'endiaStarman Also the chonkiest.
This chat message is the most delicious message I've ever seen this whole year and 4 months. I've seen some delicious messages, but no chat message ever got close. Can you please stop with your hot chilly pepper spice and then we can talk about delicious chat messages.
@M.A.R. says "this chat message." Doesn't reply to a specific message.
Self-referential messages are delicious man.
That makes more sense
@Tinkeringbell I don't know anymore. It sounds silly (IMO) to use five words instead of a perfectly valid one. I'm pretty sure I didn't do anything wrong by using this word and I don't want to remove it if I have indeed done nothing wrong by using it (because it would send the message that I did something wrong by using it when I didn't). I have removed it from the title but, for now, I'm not planning on removing it entirely from the question
7:05 PM
@Ælis Are you rejecting the reasons people have offered for why it might be a less-than-ideal word to use here, or are you uncertain what those reasons might be?
@Upper_Case I don't understand the reasons
What are they?
@Ælis There are several, but I outlined some of it in this meta post about how we want to handle word choice as a site:
Q: Provocative Words, Specificity, and IPS.SE

Upper_CaseIt's a very minor case which prompted my writing this question, but it's one that is likely to come up in the future. I'm sure it's come up in the past as well, but I didn't see any existing threads on it and the effective decision on the question in question made me curious about how we're going...

TBH, I would have removed any word from my posts that causes so much off-topic controversy, but YMMV.
This^ If people are taking what I'm saying a different way than I want them to, I'd change the way I'm communicating.
I would defend what I believe to be objectively correct, especially in the face of otherwise false information spreading. But if I had to remove "England" from my post because it's offensive to medieval French time travelers, why not.
7:10 PM
I think that the word in question is not awesome (for a lot of reasons, chief among them that I tend to really dislike portmanteaus), but relatively mild in terms of what people might complain about
@scohe001 The thing is, I am talking about the systemic issue that manspreading is. And, by not using the word, I feel like I am hiding the fact that there is a systemic issue at play here. To me, it feels a bit like saying "sexism doesn't exist, everyone lives equally"
@Ælis That's not the issue
At least, not the one that I see
@Upper_Case I don't understand the issue
Oh dear, finally hit HNQ ^^'
The issue is that, while you can make a (fairly easy) argument that space-spreading in public spaces exists, and a technical argument for why a special word might very succinctly describe it, some people feel that the term manspreading unfairly tars all men by associating them with the behavior
@Ælis I think there may be a bit of a... disconnect ... here between how different people see different words. It's a bit like your previous post in that regard: By using the medical term 'anorexia' instead of 'lack of appetite caused by other health issues' you're making people think of something else than you actually mean, and it requires a lot of clarification.
7:14 PM
I gave some counterexamples in the meta post, were those counterexamples clear at all?
Sure, sometimes you can use one word to describe something... but sometimes it's more neutral or understandable for other people to use 5 or more :)
I'd rather not re-type those examples in chat, but they illustrate (what I see as) the issue pretty directly
I definitely get an antagonistic feeling from manspreading, in that I've most often seen it used in a hostile way (almost derogatory, even).
@Upper_Case Men aren't targetted by systemic oppression, so I don't care about those men that feel targeted
@Ælis HNQ... batten down the hatches
7:16 PM
@Ælis I'm not saying these issues do or don't exist, but I'm not sure that a question on IPS is the place to confront that. I think that--as with every SE site--the more objective you make your question, the better the answers you'll get. The term you're using--from the responses you've gotten--seems to be more subjective than objective. That doesn't mean it's not a real problem that doesn't exist, it just means that by classifying the situation like that you're making ppl see it differently
@Ælis Meh. Your comment is, then, that you don't care if it upsets any men who read it, which is identical to men not caring about using vulgar terms to describe women.
That may not be a position that the stack can sustain well
@Ælis Men aren't targeted by systemic gender oppression, in this case - they may have other aspects of their life where they are subject to systemic oppression.
@Ash Yes, I was specifically talking about "men vs women" case
i.e., if a black male user has a complaint about a wealthy white woman, we wouldn't tolerate a curse word (starting with a B or C, for example) being used in place of woman, nor would we try to evaluate whether or not that user was sufficiently oppressed enough to "get away" with it
TBH, if that's the stance you want to take on why that specific word needs to be in the question I think we're stepping towards needing more active moderation
I'm not sure what using that word specifically adds to the question in a helpful sense.
It seems to be adding more confusion and upset than seems necessary.
The core is "how do I ask a man to move, when I feel uncomfortable and also worried about confrontation and safety".
7:20 PM
@scohe001 You make an interesting point here. I'll let you edit if you want
@Upper_Case If someone uses a word that is disrespectful against a privileged class, then yes, I don't really care that the privileged class sees this word as disrespectful. So, if a black men call white people in general "something something", then I say they have every right to do that because we are indeed racist toward them
Actually, I don't follow that line of reasoning. (I don't feel antagonized by the term myself, because I haven't seen it used here, heh) If it offends men that are vessels of said oppression, it would kinda make sense (in the sense that "an eye for an eye" does) but if someone who doesn't prejudice is offended by it?
@Ælis I'm assuming that you want a world where equality is the standard. I would say that's what we all want. But equality means treating everyone equally, that does not include telling one group that how they feel doesn't matter just because they have historically been the beneficiaries of systematic inequalities.
@Rainbacon I wasn't clear. I'll try to rephrasing it: If I'm calling men sexist and some men take offense, then I don't care
@Ælis Whether or not you're cool with people flinging around vulgar language and ethnic/religious/gendered slurs is irrelevant to the situation. IPS is a place for anyone that has IPS questions and problems, not just those you feel are most appropriate
I don't know that people here are going to be interested in dissecting which borderline comments come from people who are "allowed", nor users coming to the site and trying to figure out whether or not they're welcome
OK, it's getting a bit too serious for me here. Ciao
I'd rather confuse myself with molecular symmetry than social politics
7:27 PM
Anyway I already said that scohe (or Tink, or someone else) can edit so I don't see the point in arguing anymore
Well, I think it may be time to stop the arguing here, to avoid upsetting/wearing each other out. I think I saw a message saying the post could be edited..... and well, that ^:)
@scohe001 did you already start/make an edit? Do you have time for one?
@Tinkeringbell I'm trying at an edit, nearly done
Sorry @Tink, my work is giving away a bunch of free t-shirts lol I just got back to my desk
@Upper_Case Well, to say it in Dutch: "Ook goed!" (Also okay!)
I haven't started on one. Did you want me to do it, or did you want to?
7:29 PM
@scohe001 @Upper_Case has got it :)
Ahh completely missed that
Saw the ping and was blind to everything else
So... t-shirt huh? Pictures!!!
(or not, if it reveals any PII ;) )
@Tinkeringbell It ended up being a pretty light edit, given the heat around it, so I think it will be acceptable
Heh. I'll keep the company name and stuff out of it
@Upper_Case Hmmm. I think you might've missed the notes section?
@scohe001 Ah nice! Pyjama shirts ;)
7:31 PM
Or comfy casual stuff to wear into work ;)
That too... perhaps ;)
@Tinkeringbell Thanks, good catch
The advantage of not having to see real customers lol
@scohe001 ahh, my client keeps giving away t-shirts and I can never manage to snag one
Ooh the clients were the ones to give us t-shirts at my old job. I always hated that. It felt like we had to fight over them. This was much easier--there were piles and piles of them lol
7:33 PM
Thanks for your time @Upper_Case :) Also, I believe the comment section can be clean now, @Tink?
My current client is a hip tech startup, so the t-shirts are a pretty hot commodity
Ahh the startup life. Get the swag while you can
@Ælis Just a sec :) Making my way through the answers now :)
Yeah, unfortunately they also have those startup problems, like how I've been trying to get someone to tell me what the requirements for my user story are all afternoon and all I've gotten is "yes, there are requirements"
@Tinkeringbell Thanks for taking the time :) I feel a bit guilty at giving you so much work ^^'
7:38 PM
@Rainbacon wow. That's...uh...damn. I don't think I could imagine that happening where I am. That's crazy
@Rainbacon You have my abstract sympathy. That sounds rough, baffling, and frustrating
@Tink it looks like you're just giving a link to the TAS transcript. Is that on purpose or were you trying to point to a specific message?
Everyone is really busy. They have a lot of work to do, and not enough people. About 3 months ago they asked if our team could go from 5 to 40 overnight because they are trying to scale up, and just can't hire engineers fast enough to keep up with the work they want to do
@Ælis No worries :) We're here to help too, and I really appreciate you being open to editing this too :)
@Rainbacon I mean they understand that productivity dips after bringing on new hires because of the training time, right?
7:42 PM
oh they definitely do
but it will at least pick up after those new hires get ramped up
@scohe001 Yeah, I just picked full transcript ;)
Gotcha. Just making sure :)
There wasn't really one message I wanted to link to very much, just give people a room to hunt through if they really wanted :)
Yea that's fair. It is a little spread out
@Tinkeringbell Well, it did take some convincing, I wasn't that open to it and I really hope my obstination wasn't too misplace (I know it can sometimes be) ^^'
7:43 PM
Much better than never getting more velocity though
And while I'm on the topic of appreciating people! I really like how everyone in here handled this :) I didn't get the feeling there was too much piling on, which was great :D
@Ælis Eh, we'll get there eventually, which is what matters :)
It's probably not like you can help it a lot? ;)
@Tinkeringbell No, not really ^^ Most of the time, I just need time. I hate having to make decisions in a rush. In any case, thank you for being so patient and understanding :)
@LuxClaridge Just wanted to let you know that I didn't took your comment on meta badly at all. I was indeed obstinate ^^
@Ælis Dispute and conflict are inevitable, but discussion and resolution are not. I'm pleased with how this all went, and I'm especially pleased that we were able to talk through it before the question spent much time on HNQ
@Ælis You're welcome... but if you need time, perhaps the Sandbox can help with this a bit more/better than the pressure of your posts ending up in HNQ ;)
I've always seen the sandbox as a place for workshopping questions so that they'd be on topic and properly scoped. I'd say that this question was a very well written one, and I'd be hesitant to suggest sandboxing posts just to make sure that they will be well received
7:52 PM
@Tinkeringbell I keep forgetting how it is to be on HNQ (I also dislike the idea of "losing time" by posting my question on the Sandbox first) but I'll try to remember to post potentially controversial stuff on the Sandbox first ^^
@Rainbacon I have done that in the past for vegan question, so...
@Ælis Lol for what it's worth I agree with you. :)
@Rainbacon Eh, true... but this is the second in a short row where we've edited/commented on one of Ælis' questions specifically because of the language used... so perhaps Sandboxing it makes a bit more sense in that case?
Meh, Sandbox IMO is just a sounding board. Just depends on what you're trying to sound out
Of course we can do so when posts are posted, and we can probably never catch everything that sets off HNQ ;)
Q: How do reply with attach file formal way?

Rashedul AlamI've worked in a online market. Suddenly they stopped my work for verification purpose. They requested me to provide a student ID card through email. What would be the best formal reply with my attach scan copy of student ID.

7:55 PM
@Tinkeringbell It'll always be easier to say a question should maybe have been in the sandbox than that it should go there immediately, especially when there's differing perception between the asker and readers.
@ExtrovertedMainMan I swear we have a meta question specifically on email wording
@scohe001 Probably, we had one user get like 10 questions closed because they were all "how do I write this email"
Yup, I remember that one. Their suspension ends next month I believe
I think that the IPS processes worked well in this case
@Upper_Case True, hindsight is 20/20 ;)
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