The Awkward Silence

spiral succulent

12:14 AM

there are upvotes though, and through them, vindication

A J

1:39 AM

> What do you call a laughing motorcycle? A Yamahahaha.

> I got caught in police speed trap yesterday. The officer walked up to my car and said "I've been waiting all day for you " Well I said. I got here as fast as I could.

Jesse Barnett

3:28 AM

@Tinkeringbell do we really discourage questions asking about how to make someone do/not do something? interpersonal.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/2609/…

I see it asked all the time... to me I think the real issue is when an asker wants to make someone do something without an obviously just reason.

NVZ

4:12 AM

@spiralsucculent I tried Reddit once or twice. It just doesn't have that special thing to keep me there.

D.Hutchinson

5:33 AM

hey @NVZ :)

NVZ

Hey

Magisch

7:15 AM

morning

JAD

o/

Nobody

7:52 AM

I saw this question about how to explain why you are vegan if you are vegan for moral reasons. And I think it easily generalizes to lots of other situations where you need to talk about something you do because you think you have an ethical obligation to do so, but the other person doesn't do it and you don't want to be a judgemental asshole about it. You know and accept not everyone has the same morals even if you think yours are the right ones.
Is this frowned upon, just generalizing a question and asking it again?

JAD

@Nobody hmm, alternative is to discuss on meta whether that specific question can/should be edited to turn into a canonical question. I guess that also depends a bit on how general the answers it's getting.

although from what I can see here for example the decision to turn a question into a canonical one, is mostly based on whether it already has a widely applicable answer.

Nobody

8:10 AM

@JAD Hmm, most of the answer are rather specific, although the intent behind some of them is applicable to the more general question. I don't think it should be edited to make it more general. I think I'll just ask the general one and see if people dislike it.

Extroverted Main Man

8:21 AM

0

Q: Why do I always have to put extra effort to building any kind of relationship?

I know people, but I haven't had a single friend since high school. Now in my mid twenties, so basically 10+ years without a friend. I wonder if this is a common phenomenon for people of this generation with Internet and social networks. I don't know how to make friend even, any advice will be ap...

making-friends

IPS Comment Bot

8:52 AM

"Once I was cutting vegetables and I saw a huge spider on my forearm and I was like "Holy shit, kill it!". I might have overreacted a bit...". Or you could go with the classic "Do you want to know how I got these scars?" — Hawker65 2 mins ago

#11728 Hawker65 (171 rep) | A: How to politely deflect questions about awkward scars? (score: 33) | posted 19 hours ago by Cashbee (2135 rep) | edited 17 hours ago by Cashbee (2135 rep)

Matched regex(es) ["offensive"]

JAD

flag-pls nln interpersonal.stackexchange.com/questions/11727/…

Extroverted Main Man

0

Q: My morals make me "better" than the next person. How not to be a judgmental asshole?

So I have a lot of moral obligations: not flying because that contributes to climate change which could kill us all wearing a headscarf because going without is almost as immodest as going around stark naked being Christian because otherwise I would go to hell not using or buying animal product...

conversations politeness socializing cross-culture

Cashbee

flag-pls nln interpersonal.stackexchange.com/questions/11727/… and the comments after that..

NVZ

11:11 AM

Hello

Extroverted Main Man

0

Q: How to avoid angry stares

I am a moderately good looking woman. With basic makeup and hair styling, I can make myself look beautiful. And this is how I usually go out. So, I do get a lot of stares, sometimes admiring and sometimes nasty, from other male colleagues and I am pretty much okay with it, mainly because I cannot...

women

sphennings

11:51 AM

What's the close reason for "How do I word this?" questions?

Extroverted Main Man

0

Q: How do I tell a friend I don't want to play their game anymore, but invite them to mine

I am in a group of friends who meet to play dungeons and dragons. The person who's house we go to often cancels because their partner can't make it. So as we are all adults we don't meet up very often at all. Last night was the final straw, they cancelled late so I didn't get the email before r...

conversations friends politeness united-kingdom

Extroverted Main Man

12:09 PM

0

Q: Ask for a wish from a woman

For context I am a twenty for year old man. Recently I made the acquaintance of a woman whom is twelve years older than myself. I was instantly struck by her exotic beauty, and made efforts to form a bond with her, a few days ago she made a bet with me that I went on to win. Because I won she sai...

conversations boundaries

Cashbee

flag-pls nln need help flagging unnecessary comments for the top answer of a HNQ

With any joke you make, it all depends on your tone of voice if it is seen as hostile or awkward. — OldBunny2800 13 hours ago

IMO all except the first one are to be flagged as nln

A J

12:24 PM

LOL. My answer got no attention.

Extroverted Main Man

-1

Q: Can't stop bragging

Not to brag or any thing but i can't stop to brag about any of the things I have achieved, I would brag about my test scores (they are always good since I get 1st or 2nd in my class) I LOVE to brag about my english because there is no good english speakers in my town (I am even better than my en...

conversations boundaries socializing

-1

Q: Pro's and Con's of a no-strings-attached relationship?

Can people who have been in friends with benefits type of relationships share the advantages and disadvantages of such set ups? Description: both persons are free to date other people and not interested - a priori - in an emotional relationship (attachment, texts, calls, discussions,gifts). Can ...

relationships mental-health sex

A J

@ExtrovertedMainMan meh

@ExtrovertedMainMan meh returns

Cashbee

@AJ yeah I remember that we answered at the exact same time. About your answer, I truly agree with avazula: "answering with such sincerity could lead to an awkward silence, or even people pitying you".

A J

@Cashbee I failed to see that.

How can I fix that?

Cashbee

12:42 PM

@AJ I think the humour of a witty deflection would remove the awkwardness and the potential pity from the situation. But that answer has been suggested many times already and I think your answer provides a good alternative if OP is not going for the funny response anymore. It still is a good answer. But maybe if you write 1-2 sentences about avazulas comment, admitting that this could lead to those things, it will improve it a bit.

A J

done.

looks better?

Cashbee

yup

@AJ actually, I think "It's a long story, and now might not be a good time to tell." is the start of the perfect response. If you add something to change the topic it will not end up in an awkward silence. the addition does not even have to be funny

A J

Oh, I can't think of any.

Cashbee

"It's a long story, and now might not be a good time to tell. Talking of long stories, have you guys read the book [insert book name]?"

A J

done thanks

Cashbee

12:56 PM

I would include the "talking of long stories" part, since it is a genius topic changer in this situation. Also, you could now explain how this addition is good against the awkwardness mentioned by avazula.

A J

good?

Cashbee

include "Talking of long stories" and you got my upvote ;)

damn i already voted for you xD

A J

lol'

thanks

Cashbee

my pleasure :)

Introverted Meta Man.

0

Q: how is "how do i say" different from "how the phrase"

This is with reference to my post How do I tell a friend I don't want to play their game anymore, but invite them to mine which is about to be closed as "not a good fit" How is what i am asking any different to "how do I say"? just because I know it has to be done via email?

discussion

Cashbee

1:11 PM

flag-pls there is already a discussion running again in the comments of my answer, and I have no flags left.. interpersonal.stackexchange.com/a/11728/8077

sphennings

@Cashbee I hope my comment helps.

Cashbee

i hope so too. thx

Rainbacon

I dropped a chatty flag on one of the comments as well

sphennings

Given how often comments break down into discussion it might be a good idea to work on improving that comment so that it can be dropped into other comment threads similar to the don't answer a question in the comments comment.

Mithrandir

1:29 PM

Mar 6 at 13:04, by Mithrandir

Comments are not for extended discussions, or for chatting. Comments are for clarifying and improving the post; please don’t use them for other purposes. Please take other discussions to [chat].

Magisch

So I just got this comment:

> IPS is an SJW cesspool, used to promote SJW ideology and shutdown any opposing views. I never saw you personally do anything problematic but based on your participation I assume you think IPS is a good site. If you become an SO moderator will you try to ruin it and make it more like IPS or fight to keep it politically neutral(try to keep politics out of SO as much as possible but when they do come up let both sides have their say)?

Anyone know what specifically on here this is referring to?

Mithrandir

Wat.

Just ignore it. It makes no sense.

Cashbee

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Mithrandir

I see you've already responded. Just don't engage further if they respond.

I'd seriously have advised not responding in the first place.

Magisch

I mean politics doesn't come up on SO, so no harm in responding to that

Extroverted Main Man

1:36 PM

0

Q: What text to read at the funeral of an a**hole?

I was asked to prepare a text to read out loud at the funeral of an alcoholic. He treated one part of his family violently and disgracefully, and the other part not - they even chose to side with him. So the congregation will be split into people who feel very differently. I am certain that not a...

public-speaking

Mithrandir

And people have... erm... taken stands to make sure that it stays politics free.

Sid

@ExtrovertedMainMan NSFW?

Be Nice violation.

Magisch

Not sure it even matters

apaul

@Magisch We tend to treat women, minorities, LGBTQ folks, and so on, like people. Some people think that makes us Social Justice Warriors, and feel that the angry white male voice is being actively suppressed. In some cases it kind of is, but usually where things have crossed the line into being rude and/or a political soapbox.

Magisch

being nice isn't being policital

I don't care who people hate the be nice policy still applies so there is no politics involved in that

apaul

1:38 PM

@Magisch Some folks don't seem to get that.

Mithrandir

@apaul And then it's not usually worth the time and effort to argue with them about it.

Magisch

See I can see why some people are afraid

Rainbacon

@Magisch People want to read politics into everything. About half the people I know think I lean left politically and the other half think I lean right. I never tell people how I lean, they just assume it based on unrelated things

Magisch

Sometimes sentiments to that end go overboard hard. But I don't see politics happening on SO at all, and I don't know how it would relate to moderating

@Rainbacon I find that sharp divide unhelpful anyways

Disagree with a "Left" policy and people call you a right winger. Vice versa.

Rainbacon

@Magisch It certainly is obnoxious

apaul

1:41 PM

@Magisch There were the Love Overflows and Joel's meta post about Trump's "Muslim ban" and the periodic gender equality fights.

Magisch

Not really the place of any moderator to do any of that, but if the CEO wants to, oh well

Sid

@Rainbacon then you are a Centrist. :P

Magisch

I'm not sure it brought much good and accomplished much

apaul

It happens a lot less, but it still comes up.

sphennings

@Magisch Unfortunately being nice is a political act in the US right now.

Rainbacon

1:43 PM

@Sid I'm someone who chooses not to disclose his political leanings ;)

Magisch

@sphennings On stack exchange, it's a rule

we're not a small version of the US political system here

this is a Q/A website

sphennings

@Magisch Yes and therefor obviously Stack Exchange is a leftist cesspool. :p

Magisch

@sphennings i've heard it called both

HDE 226868

Yeah, but it's a nice cesspool.

4

In all seriousness, I did mention this to an SO mod, @Magisch, and they're watching.

Cashbee

@HDE226868 thx for removing the chatty comments on my answer <3

Catija

1:45 PM

God, lots of crappy questions last night...

Mithrandir

Funny how that sentence can be interpreted to mean that @Magisch is the SO mod you talked to. </ransom musing>

Magisch

@HDE226868 I'm not going to respond to the accusations against IPS because first of all I'm not the entire site and second of all this is a SO nomination and not a state of the IPS address

Cashbee

@Mithrandir so what would "they" refer to then?

Mithrandir

@Cashbee Mag

Cashbee

they = the big brothers :)

Magisch

1:47 PM

I don't have a high chance tbh

HDE 226868

@Magisch I figured. Just wanted to let you know.

Magisch

Voting on SO is exceptionally rep based and I only have 6k

Rainbacon

@Magisch being a mod will probably involve some difficult interpersonal interactions. I personally think the fact that you have an active interest in interpersonal skills makes you a better candidate for being a mod

Sid

@Mithrandir *random, you mean.

Magisch

I don't get a SJW vibe from IPS tbh

this entire comment is strange

Rainbacon

1:49 PM

Nor do I

Catija

That's because the only people would accuse someone of that have pretty not nice world views.

Mithrandir

@Magisch Were you around when there was an incident with the term "SJW" being thrown around? That was... fun.

Magisch

I ... think? I'm not sure

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch, don't worry. That Oleg guy has caused trouble here before... Good luck!

Magisch

I've seen some instances of certain left ideologies going overboard hard but not anywhere near SE

apaul

1:51 PM

@Magisch Consider the source... That particular user was one that showed up on the more "controversial" posts in HNQ and would proceed to throw fits, start comment fights, and then accuse moderators of bias when their comments were removed. (I remember that guy pretty well)

Tinkeringbell

I had to time-out the room because of that one... I don't think you were even around at the time

Magisch

even then most people can be reasoned with

Cashbee

@Magisch where is this comment anyway?

Magisch

@Tinkeringbell sounds like I didn't miss much tbh

Rainbacon

@Cashbee it's on Magish's SO mod nomination post

sphennings

1:55 PM

It's basically a IPS trope at this point, person shows up for controversial question, isn't nice, gets told to stop, doesn't, mods attempt corrective action, complains on meta, further arguing on meta or in chat, ending when they get a time out.

2

Magisch

Probably wasted too much thought on this already

I don't see how politics could possibly factor into moderating SO

sphennings

@Magisch Claiming politics is a great way to attempt to quash legit arguments.

I think more than anything else, how you deflected their attempt to derail the conversation instead of engaging indicates that you would make a good mod.

Catija

2:19 PM

@Nobody If you wanted to make a canonical question, you went about it totally in the wrong way. Making it sound like you have those personal ethical feelings, all at the same time, is not how canonical questions work. Please do some research on them before trying again, if you do so.

Em C

What's the meta post about "answers on IPS must be about interpersonal solutions"?

oh, just found it. was searching for "require" and the word in the post was "requirements" -__- interpersonal.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/2421/…

Cashbee

also this maybe? interpersonal.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/1471/…

Em C

@Cashbee yeah, I think I'll link that one directly, fortunately someone cross-referenced it from the other :)

interpersonal.stackexchange.com/a/11778 also flagged as NAA... the answerer straight up said they didn't answer the question that was asked

JAD

2:42 PM

@Magisch In case you want to catch up: interpersonal.meta.stackexchange.com/a/1694/2262

and this: interpersonal.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/2073/…

Rainbacon

3:08 PM

@JAD Just seems like another user who was upset because the rules in place stopped them from posting what would have been low quality content (based on other content they posted which was deleted)

JAD

@Rainbacon of course not, it's easy. IPS is at fault here. duh

Magisch

@JAD sigh

JAD

you obviously can see here a user trying to make an honest contribution and IPS shutting it down because they disagree

</sarcasm>

Magisch

sigh

JAD

so yeah, not worth going in to

Magisch

3:13 PM

Background doesn't change the context of that comment, I still think going further into that is unhelpful

Cashbee

4:12 PM

interpersonal.stackexchange.com/a/11810/8077

does that count as 'rude or abusive'?

sphennings

See it as more NAA than R/A but I wouldn't argue with anyone who flagged it that way.

Rainbacon

@sphennings I wouldn't go with NAA. I think it is an answer, albeit a poor one

sphennings

@Rainbacon It's just saying "Do this." without explanation. That's not up to IPS standards.

Rainbacon

@sphennings I agree that it's not up to our standards, and it needs to be edited or deleted, but I think VLQ is a better reason for removal than NAA.

sphennings

@Rainbacon I wouldn't begrudge that as a flag either.

Crafter0800

4:51 PM

Dumb question but what does that mean^ Is that just flagging it so we know or has it actively blocked/edited that message?

Rainbacon

I think it's just letting us know

the poster of the comment edited it themself

sphennings

It's a bot that looks for patterns in comments on IPS.

There's no other action taken besides posting in chat for humans to look at.

Mithrandir

@Crafter0800 just detects and records comments, that's it

Rainbacon

I'm actually kind of surprised the answer is still there

Crafter0800

It's on 2 delete votes atm and I've flagged it

and thanks btw <3

Rainbacon

4:53 PM

Unless the flag threshold for autodeletion only applies to comments

Mithrandir

@Rainbacon VLQ and NaA are like the Spam and Rude/Abusive flags - people argue endlessly about one vs the other but they work the same way under the hood.

Em C

he edited the comment shortly after, lol. Should probably get it out of chat though, can anyone here do that?

Rainbacon

@Mithrandir Thanks for the info

sphennings

They're really doubling down too. That's the second time they've posted that answer.

Crafter0800

Oh lovely

Cashbee

4:55 PM

@Rainbacon aaaand it's gone

Crafter0800

poof

Mithrandir

@EmC if I wasn't on mobile :|

Rainbacon

@sphennings seems like custom mod flag territory if they try again

sphennings

I hope they don't.

Rainbacon

Same

sphennings

5:02 PM

I know when I was a teenager I had a real problem with doubling down on bad decisions instead of changing my behavior. Somehow I got over it.

I wish I knew what lead me to stop doing it and how to package it in a form that would be helpful to others.

Cashbee

@sphennings I doubt that sharing personal insight about such a thing helps other people change. They will have to realize the fault in their ways themselves.

but still, knowing what lead you to stop doing it might be interesting for yourself ;)

Extroverted Main Man

0

Q: How to politely inform a friend that you already have a "best friend"?

I currently have a friend who is someone "clingy" to me, and often their "best friend". I have no issue with this, I am fine with being the best friend of multiple people. However, I have an issue when they make comments such as "Best friends for life", as this implies that they are my best frien...

friends united-kingdom

sphennings

@Cashbee I know. There was a moment where it clicked and I instead of arguing I sat down and shut up.

Cashbee

aah growing up.. the memories..

Rainbacon

@sphennings I used to do the same thing, I think I figured it out once I'd gotten a job after college and realized that if I didn't change a few things that I wouldn't keep that job

sphennings

5:14 PM

@Crafter0800 What do you want to communicate when you respond to statements like "Best friends forever!"?

Crafter0800

That I already have a best friend, and as such cannot really be theirs too

Or words to that effect (that imply either I cannot be their best friend, or that I already have my 1 best friend)

sphennings

So just "Stop calling me your best friend" or "I have other friends I will prioritize over you, please manage your expectations accordingly"?

As an aside best friends can be an one way relationship. When I was more of an introvert I wasn't my best friend's best friend but they were mine.

Crafter0800

Essentially - but I'd rather not be as direct as I don't want to cause too much offence

And I'm aware, I have only one best friend but I am the best friends of 2 people (at leas that I know of xD)

sphennings

Which is it?

Or both, both is also a possibility.

Crafter0800

Which is it as in direct or indirect? In which cause I'd far rather it be indirect

sphennings

5:24 PM

Stop calling me your best friend, or I already have a best friend?

Cashbee

I think @sphennings and I are asking about exactly the same nuance of the question but we are both being misunderstood. To be fair, it is hard to put our questions into words.

sphennings

Is it only about the words being used, or are you wanting to manage their expectations about your emotional availability?

Cashbee

I gained 215 rep today on IPS, how is that possible?

sphennings

Points from accepted answers and bounties are exempt from the reputation cap.

Cashbee

ah ok, thanks

Tinkeringbell

5:37 PM

→ 3 messages moved to trash

Crafter0800

5:53 PM

@sphennings Both :P sorry for misunderstanding :3

sphennings

@Crafter0800 No worries :)

spiral succulent

@Magisch Maybe our friend Oleg is just upset about the recent podcast title "Jon Skeet wants you to be a Feminist" lmao

Magisch

I don't know the guy

spiral succulent

(sarcastic use of 'our friend')

@Crafter0800 is the distinction of "best friend" vs. "friend" important to you?

or a better question is, how important is that distinction to you?

I'm just curious about how you think of your friend hierarchy. I don't think I'm the right person to actually answer your question because I see the difference as arbitrary.

But I'm always interested in exploring how others handle the world, especially when it seems that they have very different strategies/frameworks

Introverted Meta Man.

0

Q: What is the difference between a "convince" question and a good question?

In my experience with the stackexchange network, the format best supports questions that give a situation, actual behavior and desired behavior with the question being how to obtain desired behavior. I see the same thing on this site. Looking at the highest voted questions, I see: What to do if...

discussion

spiral succulent

6:29 PM

@sphennings I feel that the last line of your answer to that meta is more idealistic than realistic of how the site is used

We want the takeaway of people consuming content on this site to be a better set of interpersonal skills and abilities

But the individual question is often results driven

with the side-effect being that they have a more productive interaction

sphennings

@spiralsucculent I think that managing expectations when interacting with people is an important interpersonal skill.

spiral succulent

An analogy to SO: The takeaway from SO is better coding practices and strategies, but individual questions are often "I want this bit of code to do X"

fair

Tinkeringbell

It's the difference between asking 'How do I convince dad to buy me a new pc' and 'How do I sell the idea of needing a new pc'

sphennings

I think that difference is important.

Tinkeringbell

Or 'How do I make people stop forcing drinks on me' vs. 'How do I assert an alcohol-free lifestyle choice'

spiral succulent

6:33 PM

That difference is meaningful to us because we think about it, but often comes off as pedantic to our askers

Termatinator

good evening

Tinkeringbell

@spiralsucculent Let's just try and be pedantic for 3 months, and people will get used to it.

sphennings

@spiralsucculent Unlike with programming where there's a clear distinction between solutions that work and don't work that line is so much muddier.

spiral succulent

I think right now we fail at being clear

sphennings

@Tinkeringbell That's a great example of it.

Tinkeringbell

6:35 PM

The problem right now is that there isn't a base of good examples yet, so people just keep asking variants on what they see.... If we start being pedantic now, there will be good examples and we can relax the pedantry a little because people will hopefully see how to write a good question

spiral succulent

@sphennings okay, people are not deterministic

Tinkeringbell

And that's a major stretch on 'assume good intentions'.

@sphennings Feel free to copy paste it, I saw the comment asking for an example..

spiral succulent

@Tinkeringbell yeah, I don't have a problem being pedantic, but I don't think we go about that clearly

Tinkeringbell

@spiralsucculent Huh?

Just for my info, what do you mean by 'clearly pedantic'?

sphennings

@spiralsucculent We're still figuring things out. How to explain the distinction.

spiral succulent

6:37 PM

theres a pushback against "How do I make person do X", but it isn't always a push towards "How can I best try to convince person that X is a good option/action/choice/plan

scohe001

@Tinkeringbell those are great examples, thank you! From those examples though, it seems that a "convince" question can just be reworded to be more general to fit the scope of this site. Is that the only difference between convince questions and questions accepted on this site? Is there an example of a convince question that would be un-saveable?

sphennings

I think we should start being stricter with what we accept, with the caveat that this should be an ongoing discussion not something that will be fixed in an instant.

Tinkeringbell

@scohe001 Pfft... that's a trick question :P

spiral succulent

its often "This is too broad" "Please add in Y" where Y is a specific detail that does not fix the post

Tinkeringbell

I'm all for being stricter... finally!

sphennings

6:38 PM

@scohe001 While they are similar there is a fundamental difference between them.

spiral succulent

I'm not arguing for a relaxing of the rules, just a clear stating of a path from a common bad question to a good one

2

sphennings

@spiralsucculent I don't believe that there is a clear path for every question.

Tinkeringbell

@soche take a look at this one... interpersonal.stackexchange.com/q/3344/1599

I don't see an 'How to assert' or 'How to sell an idea' here...

spiral succulent

not for every question, that would be forcing scope wayy to small

but "How do I make person do X" is an extremely common question structure

Tinkeringbell

That one would at the least need comments about what OP is willing to do, what was tried and what they're afraid of messing up if it were asked now

sphennings

6:40 PM

@spiralsucculent But I think you are right that if we do decide to be stricter we should put more effort into helping people edit their questions.

Tinkeringbell

@spiralsucculent That's where the pedantry comes in

Although I for one am very uncomfortable 'diagnosing' people, telling them 'oh, this is about asserting boundaries/sales pitches' by editing right away

I tried figuring it out with comments last week on a question, but that didn't get anywhere :/

spiral succulent

and I think 90% of these could be met with a clear meta saying "You cannot make anybody do anything, here's some ways to reconsider and reframe your question, if you still have what you feel is a valid and valuable question after this reframing, ask that"

3

Tinkeringbell

@spiralsucculent We could make that a close reason as well...

sphennings

@spiralsucculent That's a pretty good idea.

Tinkeringbell

that links to that sort of meta

spiral succulent

6:42 PM

Yes

sphennings

I think part of the problem is that we're still figuring out what the common types of bad questions are.

Tinkeringbell

@sphennings Yeah, some people are slow on that :P

spiral succulent

I would be happy to stub out that meta and allow others to suggest/edit additions

@sphennings definitely, but I think that we can identify one

Tinkeringbell

@spiralsucculent I'd say wait a few days for the meta of scohe to get enough attention/votes/views

spiral succulent

@Tinkeringbell I know your pain interpersonal.stackexchange.com/questions/11726/…

scohe001

6:44 PM

@Tinkeringbell Hmm so a "convince" question could be defined as one where we're given a goal that is too precise (given the nature of interpersonal interactions) and with not enough information beyond the goal?

spiral succulent

okay

scohe001

Haha @Tinkeringbell I'm not sure, but when you say "soche" are you talking about me?

spiral succulent

yes she it

is*

Tinkeringbell

@scohe001 Probably, yeah. It's a question that focuses not enough on the Skills, and more on the situation

spiral succulent

your question could fit the role of what I'm talking about

Tinkeringbell

6:45 PM

*Yeah, sorry, mistake. I'm bad with names first time around, I'll get it right eventually :D

spiral succulent

although a convince is a specific breed of "Make person do X"

scohe001

@Tinkeringbell Ahhh that is a beautiful one-liner. This is exactly the kind of answer I was looking for, thank you!

sphennings

> And communication between people is a fine topic for the site. As long as you're focused on what you do and not what you're trying to get someone else to do.

scohe001

@Tinkeringbell No worries :)

Tinkeringbell

@sphennings Yep, I was trying to find that one :)

@scohe001 memorize that line sphennings just posted, it's wisdom from our community moderator

sphennings

6:46 PM

@spiralsucculent I think there are a couple we can identify right now.

spiral succulent

@sphennings This sounds good, but how exactly do you measure success in an interpersonal reaction

Generally I measure success by outcome

and outcomes are often dependent on the post-interaction actions of the other parties I interacted with

sphennings

@spiralsucculent The same way that top poker players measure it. Not by the success of an individual hand but by whether it was the correct decision or not.

scohe001

@sphennings Got it. Have a goal in mind, but phrase the question around how you can change the way you interact to work toward accomplishing it while also accepting the goal may not be achievable.

Sound right?

Tinkeringbell

@spiralsucculent Oh sure... but I can't make friends stop offering me drinks. I can only focus on me, what I did, and how that didn't work ... Add some info on how usual drinking and forcing drinks on another person is in my culture... and then ask 'how do I become more convincing'

spiral succulent

@scohe001 This sounds right to me

Tinkeringbell

6:49 PM

It's another pedantry thing, but there's a difference between 'how do I become more convincing in this situation' and 'how do I convince my friends'

spiral succulent

@Tinkeringbell Yes, we are focusing on our own ehavior/actions/mannerisms, but the outcome and measurement of success is often seen in others

for some reason my keyboard doesnt like to type 'b' today

Tinkeringbell

@spiralsucculent Yes, which is why we can give advice on the askers behavior, actions and mannerisms

sphennings

@scohe001 Think of it this way "How can I change my friend's political opinion?" is a very different question than "How can I have a mutually respectful with a friend of mine with different political opinions?"

Tinkeringbell

and why askers can accept an answer that gave them the most desirable outcome (in this case, which helped them be more convincing)

spiral succulent

@Tinkeringbell yes, part of this meta post will be introducing that difference

Tinkeringbell

6:51 PM

There's a fine line between 'we need to know as much detail as possible about your situation' and 'we can influence that situation for you' that seems a bit unclear ...

scohe001

@sphennings dagnabit. I thought with my "Have a goal in mind..." I'd found a line that could encompass what makes a good question here, but it doesn't fit that. I understand "How can I change my friend's political opinion" is a bad question, but can you explain why? Is it because it's too broad?

sphennings

First off we don't know your friend, so we can't say anything specific about what will and will not work for them.

spiral succulent

Basically, we want to make sure people understand the difference between "How can I express to others that I think X is good" and "How do I make others think X is good". I want to try to make that difference as clear as possible along with a guide to moving a question and frame of mind to the first from the second. I think it would be worthwhile to construct such an explanation and guide combo as a canonical meta, and perhaps as @Tinkeringbell suggested, tie this to a close reason.

2

Tinkeringbell

I'd have gone with 'manipulation isn't about interacting well' and 'ips is the skills we use to interact well' so changing your friend's political opinion is not an interpersonal skill

sphennings

Secondly if someone knew the answer to that question they wouldn't be sharing it on IPS they'd be using it to shape global political opinion.

spiral succulent

6:59 PM

@scohe001 It's because the fundamental answer is that you can't, with 100% certainty, change anybody else's opinion

Tinkeringbell

@Oleg Did I miss something? I didn't see the t-word :/ Lemme look, that isn't supposed to be there.

scohe001

@spiralsucculent I agree with you, but I believe (could be wrong) that I saw that frame trap questions have a home here

Tinkeringbell

Now can we get on with that convincing thing? :)

spiral succulent

I would, but I'm heading to lunch

I'll catch up when I'm back

Tinkeringbell

@spiralsucculent Enjoy!

scohe001

7:02 PM

@spiralsucculent looks like you're on PST too. I'll be back with him :)

Thanks for the help here guys, you've all been awesome!

Tinkeringbell

hahaha okay, both of you enjoy the lunch then. :)

HDE 226868

Got it.

Tinkeringbell

Hah, that looks better ;)

@Oleg I think I wasn't the one to remove that ;)

Oleg

7:55 PM

@Tinkeringbell Ok, sorry. What's going on then? Who's removing all my comments and why (please remember that this site is part of the StackExchange network and there are certain rules here, not being able to post a single comment and being banned for 30 minutes under the pretense of inappropriate content is unacceptable)? Let's see what will happen with this comment.

Tinkeringbell

@Oleg, I'm sorry. I wasn't the one that removed it. I can only imagine it got cleaned up as an actual attempt at being nice. We missed the name-calling, you pointed it out and all messages got removed because otherwise it'd still be visible?

Peter

@Tinkeringbell something totally unrelated: the first time I saw your new image I thought it was a duck, was quite suprised to see it was an giraffe. Was this just me or do others had this as well? :)

Tinkeringbell

@Peter You're the first ;)

Maybe the rest was just to ashamed to admit it? :P

I'm going to shoot a new one this weekend. My brother is taking us to the zoo where he works, we're allowed behind the scenes as well!

Peter

maiby others had this as well, I'm not that ashamed of it :)

ah cool :D Then you can take really nice pictures

Did you make this one yourself as well?

Tinkeringbell

Yep ;)

At the same zoo that I'll be going to this weekend, only a few years back

Peter

8:02 PM

nice, it looks really cool :)

Rainbacon

@Peter I don't remember what I thought it was, but I definitely didn't think it was a giraffe

Peter

@Rainbacon I knew i wasn't the only one :D

JAD

@Tinkeringbell I did have to zoom in on the picture to find out what it was exactly

Tinkeringbell

I know, it's not very clear in chat ... :(

I'll see if I can find something better :)

Peter

yea, he/she looks really to the camera :) I think it is hard to see because a giraffe is quite thin

Tinkeringbell

8:13 PM

Would that work? It's a little too dark for my taste

Peter

it looks cute :) hmm, maiby a different background?

Crafter0800

@spiralsucculent Partially, my best friend means significantly more to me than a regular friend however that doesn't mean my normal friends are unimportant :)P

spiral succulent

of course

Tinkeringbell

@Peter I'm not good at photoshopping backgrounds :P

I think I'll go with the dead animal:

spiral succulent

Whoa cool archeology!

6 y/o me is hella jealous

Peter

8:18 PM

@Tinkeringbell me neither, I'm really bad with anything that involves graphics XD

When you said dead animal I wasn't sure what to expect

Tinkeringbell

@spiralsucculent hahaha don't be... That was one very uncomfortable dig!

Lots of rocks, see them piled up behind me? We had to remove them before we could even sit/kneel besides the dig, and we had to shift around about every 2 minutes because there would be some rock excessively poking you :P

Peter

thats quite a dig, since you need to be really carefull that you don't accidentally hit a bone. I think it is quite rewarding though when you finish it :)

Tinkeringbell

@Peter Yeah, it was fun too ;)

Peter

That's the most important! :D

Tinkeringbell

I sometimes miss it :) But the next project will be GeoICT, so I got to use some of the skills I learned during archaeology, hopefully :D

Peter

8:23 PM

would be nice if you get lucky :)

Froopy

8:41 PM

Okay, @sphennings, I deleted the comments, but I'm still unclear about the question I asked.

Tinkeringbell

@Froopy I can only see one side of the story now, but it seems you have concerns about a particular question? Which one?

Froopy

Because honestly, from the logic I've gathered from here about "how to convince X about Y", wouldn't interpersonal.stackexchange.com/questions/11813/…

Okay, well, I was asking about vote to close as off topic/unclear as one question if another question appeared to follow the same format, and if it didn't why not, and I was directed here.

Hold on, I had the first link.

interpersonal.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/2543/… That's the meta post I asked the question in as a comment.

Tinkeringbell

(well, the 'how to convince X about Y' questions are still being discussed ;) ) We had a very nice chat a few minutes ago. You could start reading from here chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/43407918#43407918...

I for one wrote the answer saying that for me, in the case of the question being discussed, it was unclear to me if this was about skills (on-topic) or creating the argument for the OP (off-topic, see the help center).

I think if you want to discuss the latest question, you've come to the right place. Now, if you read that discussion we just had, I think this one can stay, on the grounds that it focuses on 'how should I behave in situation X' more than 'How can I ensure X happens'

IPS Comment Bot

Not an answer but a suggestion: talk to the officiant at the funeral. They deal with questions like this on a regular basis. They can help you decide what you should do and have seen a lot worse scenarios than yours. — baldPrussian 1 min ago

#11797 baldPrussian (8819 rep) | Q: What text to read at the funeral of an a**hole? (score: 0) | posted 7 hours ago by krork (15 rep)

Matched regex(es) ["an?\\W?answer\\W?\\Wbut"]

Froopy

Well, at least that partly confirms that this is still mostly unanswered territory.

It's just been a bit difficult wrapping my head around it and I was looking for some clarification so I didn't stomp on someone else's rules.

But this kind clears it up a bit for me.

Tinkeringbell

8:54 PM

Yeah... Take a good look at that chat-talk (someone should summarize that and put it on the meta question!) and keep track of that meta question. Hopefully, we'll be able to smooth this one over soon and draw some lines :)

Froopy

The part that cleared it up is between expression and changing someone's mind that spiral mentioned.

Tinkeringbell

Yeah, there's some good distinctions there ;) I'll make sure it ends up somewhere on meta :)

Froopy

I'm fairly certain I've seen someone say it before, but sometimes I forget. I'm kinda new here.

Tinkeringbell

It get's mentioned a lot lately, so that wouldn't be suprise ;)

sphennings

@Froopy I'm honestly unsure what you're asking. The question you pinged me under was about what to do when a question is unfairly closed.

The question you linked to hasn't been closed.

Froopy

8:58 PM

@sphennings, the reason I asked it there is because I thought it could be closed for the same reason until I got cleared up here.

Now I see it was a distinction between expressing yourself (doable here) and changing someone's mind (not doable here)

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