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9:00 PM
Semantics or not, the question should not be open. And yet, five people voted to reopen it...
Because it was dupe closed?
@EmC yeah, which is why I think a crusade against "How to make people do X" is not a productive undertaking and could really alienate askers
Not being a dupe doesn't make it not close-worthy.
If it was closed as a dupe, not being a dupe makes it worthy of reverting that closure
it could (should) be closed again as too-broad
@spiralsucculent You can lead a horse to water... lots of people have asked for details... all the OP has provided is age and location... nothing about the relationship or the nature of the treatment...
@spiralsucculent then why didn't those 5 users close to vote again?
also, that idea works if there is sufficient users closevoting
IPS doesn't really have that
9:03 PM
@NVZ there's no indication of bullying in that question. The OP didn't add that tag.
@Catija Its easy for us to know what details are expected, harder for askers, although I agree the OP has not made sufficient edits based on the comments already there
huh what just happened
@spiralsucculent We don't leave questions open because the OP's don't know how to ask... we guide them in fixing the question while it's closed and then reopen it when it's clear... if it's ever clarified.
@Catija Yeah, I didn't realize this until a few minutes ago. I think kate overstepped a bit by adding that tag
I see the OP is being mistreated.. by schoolmates posting OP's photos against OP's wishes, which is bullying if you ask me
9:05 PM
We can not put words in their mouth if they haven't said them. We can not let our interpretation of the question affect it. We need to read it with clear eyes and judge whether it's actually detailed enough. Doing anything less is a disservice to them and could hurt their relationships with others.
does the OP see it as bullying, or is that your diagnosis?
@NVZ I read it the same way, but @Catija is correct that that is not entirely clear
@JAD basically this is the issue
I see that it's being discussed here huh weird
9:06 PM
why weird?
I'm writing a meta answer, since I was a voter
weird? i meant to say coincidence or surprising
where is the meta about "make people do X" being off-topic
i want to write an answer but i can't find it
@EmC no
isn't there a meta that Tinkering is bible-thumping wrt "Make people do X" being off topic?
bible-thumping? new word to learn.. lol
also I'm glad my comments got starred, now I have an enemy :P
@NVZ I may be misusing it, but I mean it as "Using as a a reasoning for their actions and pointing back to it" basically placing the responsibility for your actions on an outside authoritative document
@NVZ It's a useful word
@EmC this seems like it, but the answers seem to indicate that "make people do X" is on topic
now I'm more confused
meta is hard to search if you don't know the exact words :/
9:18 PM
@Tinkeringbell since youre back, where did we agree that "make people do X" is off-topic?
This is why it really pisses me off when people use clever titles on meta.
I want to challenge that Idea in the right place
@spiralsucculent The other day @Tinkeringbell got upset with me unexpectedly, and haven't responded to my apology for whatever she thinks I did to upset her. I'm still clueless.
@Catija I think meta titles should be judiciously edited to reference the site defining aspects resulting from them
Original intent be damned
"Clever titles on meta"... lol... Do we have a discussion about meta titles anywhere?
9:22 PM
@NVZ this isn't really a useful or helpful thing to say, I have no desire to create animosity with anybody
@NVZ If we do it probably has too clever of a title to be found
Q: Should we edit titles that are not sufficiently descriptive?

BeofettI recently made an edit to another meta question titled "How do I convince someone else to change their behavior". My edit was because the title seemed to not match the question, which seems to be about whether we should allow questions that seek an outcome that may involve getting another p...

@spiralsucculent Neither do I. I want us to all be able to talk opposing ideas without getting upset. Just throwing that out.
@Catija I was just about to get to that... Thanks.
I had to take a training class last week for work on "team building" that talked about this model: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuckman%27s_stages_of_group_development I think we're in the "storming" phase..
@NVZ responding to my statement to pile on @Tinkeringbell is not going to do anything to achieve that goal, you are literally just bringing up a problem you have with her
9:25 PM
@spiralsucculent I realize that now.
my original comment was not an invitation for bad mouthing one of our hardest working community members
So, I think some of our meta Qs need re-titling.
Is that the word? Re-titling?
@spiralsucculent Please stop furthering that. Neither was mine.
Okay, may be time to drop thiss....
just making sure I clearly made my point :), i would have put it all in one paragraph, but im a slow typer
Seriously, y'all...
9:27 PM
@Mithrandir Please remove these.
@NVZ i consent and second
@spiralsucculent Do you really think starting the entire thing with "I'm not sure how to handle Tinkeringbell" is... nice?
You're pinging her but talking about her in the third person and implying she needs "handling".
I tag users so that whatever I say is not a secret.
@NVZ this was why I tagged
9:29 PM
Riiiiight, okay, but do you not see how this is going to look when she comes back to the ping and the discussion? Like how rude it appears?
She is online. I wrote that knowing she is.
Basically, you're doing the chat equivalent of talking about someone behind their back and then mailing them an audio file of the conversation later
Anyways, this is going longer than initially thought.
(People can linger in that online list for a while and not actually be here.)
Please stahp.
9:30 PM
@NVZ Great... so the fact that she's here but not responding makes it OK? She's clearly already upset about stuff... and now you're all complaining about her and pinging her... would that make you feel better?
I logged out, so I'd no longer have to react. Maybe I should have logged out on all devices, because my phone is going nuts right now.
She's been a great friend of mine. So anything I say is out of concern. Not "talking behind her back". @Tinkeringbell
@Tinkeringbell Pardon this chat.
Just to make it clear: I log out so I don't get emotionally invested, I log out when I think I've said all that I wanted to say, when I'm just going in circles and getting frustrated
But you're still having the conversation when they're not active.
Whether that's by choice or not.
9:32 PM
I mention that, because if I am going to withdraw from an active discussion, I think it's a courtesy to let people know they don't have to expect further responses from me. If people have an issue with that, please let me know and next time I'll just quietly disappear
@Catija Not necessarily. Not at all.
And @NVZ, we're not friends.
@Ash I'd love to respond, but I agree that this should be dropped, if you want to continue to admonish us feel free to add me to a chat room
You're just a random internet persona.
Now. If you'll excuse me again, I still have some cooling down to do.
9:33 PM
To be clear, I consider you all as my IPS friends.
I think your definition of friend is a little different than most
or at least, different from mine
There's one I don't know of?
@Tinkeringbell unrelated to all of this, it's been a while since we've talked about those squares you were working on - I loved seeing the progress, if you have anything new to share once you decide to come back. :)
Well, just because I interact with somebody doesn't make them my friend, even if the interaction is positive
I definitely use the word friend to mean anyone I like to hang out with (including online), but I know some people differentiate for people they've never met in person
9:35 PM
@spiralsucculent Ah, so stringent criteria.
@Rainbacon not me, some of my best friends are over the web
@spiralsucculent So are some of mine
in fact, internet friends are great because you never lose that friendship by moving away
Some of my IRL friends have become internet friends due to moving away
My husband is an internet human for me :P
9:37 PM
as I'm finding many of my friendships from college dropping off
I may use the word freely, but trust me, you all are friends to me. I talk, you talk, we all talk, we have fun, and then we work towards achieving a common goal (bettering the IPS standards), and then we all go back to our other things. It's all friendly stuff we do. :)
(well yes we do visit and such but most of our interaction is internet-based)
@NVZ See I consider being friendly different from friendship
@Ash That seems like such a strange concept, but you are working on getting visas figured out to be in the same place iirc, yes?
@NVZ I'm friendly with plenty of people who I wouldn't consider my friends
9:38 PM
@Ash Ah, okay. Maybe it's that I'm not English or American.
@Rainbacon yep! It just takes tiiiiiime.
So in the meantime, internet!
@Ash I hope you get it worked out soon!
@Rainbacon Most of the nitty gritty is worked out, we are just doing the boring waiting parts :P
So, what should I consider you all as? Allies? Coworkers? Internet Strangers?
9:39 PM
(I hate those parts)
@NVZ you can define however you want, but I see you as a fellow community member
we are only interacting because of a shared involvement
@spiralsucculent "fellow" is also a synonym of "friend" which is what my point was.
@NVZ not really, no
I am friends with somebody once my connection to them is primarily about them and is mostly independent of circumstance or shared affiliations
@NVZ no
Like technically, yes, by some definitions but not in a lot of actual practical usage
9:41 PM
@Ash How so?
Would you like me to drop dictionary links?
Oh, it's like 3:11 am here. I'll die if I don't sleep. LOL
@Ash yeah if I was living in the 50s and said "My good fellow" without any irony or sarcasm lol
@NVZ Just because a dictionary says something, doesn't make the actual usage the same.
Good night, fellow members!
9:41 PM
@NVZ good night
@Catija dictionaries are helpful but not a be-all-end-all tool (except for prescriptivists, maybe :P)
@NVZ Good night
@NVZ A dictionary is not more right than me over how I define a word, a dictionary is merely a reference for a common understanding of a word's meaning
And as a leaving note... Anything I say, read it with a smile, cuz I write it in a merry way. Nothing I ever write in chat is to be taken seriously, guys.
@NVZ this is a textbook avoidance of responsibility for one's own actions :P
@spiralsucculent I knew someone would say that. I have no comebacks to that. :)
I am very responsible when I'm reviewing and doing things on the site and meta. On chat, I'm not really anything more than a blablabla head.
On ELU chat, it's easy to be so.
Somehow this room has gotten way too serious these days.
And I should ask Jeff for a 4th place after main, meta, and chat. LOL
It's been requested. And denied.
9:48 PM
@NVZ hehehe this is more of that responsibility avoidance dude
Now, you said you were going to sleep...
@Mithrandir Touche. :P
@NVZ maybe you need to go mess about on reddit or an image board if you want to say stuff without consequence
@Mithrandir I at least have been flagging for you
thanks for spoonfeeding moderation to me :)
I finally found time to run my data.SE queries today
although I already had a flag out on the respecting wishes question
9:53 PM
I've been ridiculously busy the last few weeks
@EmC just pig latin :(
@D.Hutchinson oh, well that's hardly "ancient" :P
But - but - that's the only query I'm trying to run!
@D.Hutchinson although you did inspire me to check out Wikipedia, apparently the idea has been around since ~1866! TIL :)
@EmC haha ... told ya :)
I have some thoughts about why the goal of closing many questions as dupes of earlier questions is a bad idea ...
10:10 PM
I'd give an answer, but it wouldn't be in line with your question. You are looking for ways to prevent eroding relationships; sometimes that happens when two people each believe the other is wrong. Maybe you should consider ‘apologetics’: looking for ways to explain why you think your ethical assessment is better which don't condemn or insult the other person. I.e. challenging other people, not necessarily to agree with you, but to take their own ethical studies as seriously as you do. — can-ned_food 29 secs ago
#11739 can-ned_food (174 rep) | Q: How do I answer the question "why are you vegan?" honestly, without making them resent me? (score: 22) | posted 5 hours ago by Bridgeburners (211 rep) | edited 3 hours ago by Crafter0800 (4979 rep)
Matched regex(es) ["an?\\W?answer\\W?\\Wbut"]
I'll make an analogy to the math stack exchange site: they get many questions that can be specifically about differentiating some well-known functions - the logarithm, the exponential, a polynomial, a rational function. But they don't close additional questions and say, "here's some past material on the logarithm function, a differentiation cookbook-style to-do list, now go ahead and figure this out yourself, we're gonna close your question as a dupe."
Over at math.se, a dupe means the question is identical to a previous question; otherwise, the requirement is that the OP must have attempted the problem and must have explained their attempt. So long as that is done, the question is welcomed and answered - with lots of great answers and comments, if the OP made a sincere attempt.
so, while all of the context might be similar, the questions are still treated as good questions for the site ...
@D.Hutchinson That's a valid point but at the same time, people need to let go of the idea that all sites will operate the same in those respects
Each site has to find what works for them and their community
yeah ... true ...
Heck, Gaming outright banned identify-this-game questions (except in very very specific cases), there are other sites that welcome them with open arms. Because that works for them. It didn't work well for us.
10:14 PM
@D.Hutchinson And over on Scifi.SE, as long as the answer to a question answers the duplicate question it's a duplicate, even if the questions themselves aren't duplicates.
I see ...
@Mithrandir Oooh, nice counterpoint! :) See, each site plays by different rules - we all have the same framework, but we interpret based on what allows us to help the highest number of people in the most effective way.
The math.se approach wouldn't be a great fit here because the are never two identical interpersonal issues, but there are a lot of similar ones with similar solutions
because there* are
Basically, we want stuff that's long tail.
@Ash So, no Manx cats.
10:17 PM
and one way to achieve that is creating a funnel of dupes pointing back at a good canonical answer
The immediate controversy million eyeballs RIGHT NOW gets people peeking in the door, we want stuff that keeps them coming back because they see we have lots ot offer :)
@Mithrandir giggles nope :P
i dont get this joke
@spiralsucculent Manx cats don't have tails.
10:20 PM
That's a Manx cat - they don't have tails!
I like cats with curly tails.
@Catija My cat curls his tail up over his butt like a hat.
(He's a strange little dude)
oh, hehehe, nice one Mith
thanks for the explanation Cat/Ash
Im getting somewhere with the recording question
i think
10:26 PM
@spiralsucculent thanks ;)
nothing the OP has said so far has contradicted the bullying theory
OK, so that last edit just makes it seem like : interpersonal.stackexchange.com/questions/3639/…
BTW, if my requests bother anyone, please let me know.
@Catija yeah, I just want to be really sure its not bullying
otherwise its a dupe of that
The more he talks, the more he sounds like part of the problem.
10:36 PM
I have an idea of what might be happening
Since I think I've seen similar behavior
Which is, classmates are doing something that OP is infamous for reacting poorly to because its easy to get a reaction
same mentality as trolling young streamers or anybody who doesn't ignore inflammatory behavior as a default response
its really shitty toxic behavior
Yeah, well... the proven way to stop it is to stop responding... so...
go figure, highschoolers
I have an answer half written saying all this
but I want OP to clean up his question before I finish and post
Well, just edited again and refers to at least one of the people as a "friend"... so...
oh boy
i just read the new edit
Q: How to help a friend look on the bright side when I am losing my patience?

frustratedI am writing to ask for advice with a friend of mine. A and I have know each other since childhood and have been very close for a good portion of our friendship. Recently there has been some tension. A is in her last year of dentistry school, completing an internship and having major exams. As...

10:55 PM
I guess my answer can cover both of OP's questions now that I think about it
since they are related
imo, but not clearly enough
so I'm trying to get it down to one issue
I think its clear enough to answer
ugh, nvm
11:20 PM
@Mithrandir @Catija can I have a link to my proposed edit on interpersonal.stackexchange.com/questions/11726/…
I got it
I feel like I am talking past the OP in comments
11:40 PM
okay, it passed review, I'm posting my answer
11:57 PM
Boy I sure do love spending all day getting a question to a good spot, writing a long thought out answer and then having somebody post a short summary of what I'm about to long answer
and then it gets accepted
there is no justice
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