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12:00 AM
@RPiAwesomeness My point was that just reaching the usability level of Windows won't do much
@AshleyNunn Always a good thing.
@murgatroid99 Which I understand. However, it does have the advantage of security and the POSIX standard.
@GnomeSlice teenagers were weird in the 80s
@Chippies teenagers are still weird
@RPiAwesomeness I'm not so sure about "security". And people who care about POSIX are probably the same people who already program on Linux
12:01 AM
@RPiAwesomeness security that an average user doesn't care about or benefit from
@Chippies Pretty much this
@Chippies It's far easier to infect Windows with a virus that can do real harm than it is on Linux.
@RPiAwesomeness That's because nobody writes viruses for Linux because nobody uses Linux
@RPiAwesomeness Yes, but if you have some brains about yourself, it's not so hard to never get infected
@RPiAwesomeness it's far easier to download a piece of software that does what you want on Windows than it is on Linux
12:02 AM
Oh bother.
@RPiAwesomeness if linux had the same userbase as windows, viruses would be just as popular
both of these have the same reason why :P
I am a pirating pirate and I have never ever gotten infected with anything
@AshleyNunn Which many people don't. That's why viruses are so rampant.
@RPiAwesomeness but this nigerian prince is going to give me MONEY!
12:03 AM
@RPiAwesomeness Which is totally the same in Linux
@RPiAwesomeness getting all those people to move to Linux would only mean that people that write viruses would just switch to writing for Linux as well
Like I bet you dollars to donuts that I could give my sister a linux machine and have it be full of virus-y goodness before you can blink
The only true answer is BSD
@MattGiltaji They would be more popular, but they're still harder to make to do any real damage because of how the OS works at the user's level. Windows tends to run stuff at an admin level while Linux does quite a bit more of a sandboxed approach.
@RPiAwesomeness Windows has had UAC since Vista
12:04 AM
@WorldEngineer lol, you mean the masochist answer :D
@murgatroid99 and users get pissed at UAC and disable it
@murgatroid99 This.
And it's easy enough to do harm with an unpriveleged malicious program
@MattGiltaji you can log in as admin on linux as well
@RPiAwesomeness You mean has a sanely structured filesystem?
12:05 AM
@murgatroid99 UAC. Bah. More annoying than useful. It's far easier to get around UAC on Windows than it is to get root access on Linux.
@MattGiltaji And users can put themselves in sudoers (oh wait, that's default) and then type sudo to make stuff work
there is nothing stopping companies from requiring their software to run with root permissions
@RPiAwesomeness Type the word sudo
It's not hard
Basically, we can have this discussion all night, and we are all gonna like and use what works best
for us
Oh, wait, then you have to type in your own password
12:06 AM
and that's it, really
dammit i think i am typing too slow, yall are raising the same things
@murgatroid99 once every 15 minutes
Something something McAfee.
@MattGiltaji of inactivity
@murgatroid99 log in as admin, have permanent sudo mode
throw CircularDiscussionException;
12:06 AM
@Unionhawk gtfo
(assuming that's still an option in distros of nowadays)
@Chippies many distros actually make it pretty hard to do that
@Unionhawk Exception not found
@murgatroid99 iirc, in Ubuntu 6.06 you had to assign a password to admin account through terminal and then you could log in easily
@Chippies Heck. If you have physical access to any computer you can cause all sorts of havoc.
12:09 AM
@RPiAwesomeness what I mean is that disabling UAC is no different than logging in as admin on linux
probably even less prone to harm, actually
@Chippies or just running things as sudo
@Chippies Which you can't do by default.
Or doing sudo su to get a root login shell
@RPiAwesomeness well, having to type sudo and password can easily be more annoying than having UAC enabled :P
Or using the root account to give yourself permissions to modify whatever stuff you're not supposed to modify
12:10 AM
Yes. But you still need to have the ability to get the users password to use sudo to even use su.
@RPiAwesomeness The point you were making was about the user of the physical system disabling protections (UAC). That's just as applicable to sudo
@RPiAwesomeness you still need admin password to run things as admin if you're on a regular user account in windows
@RPiAwesomeness or you can tell the user "you have to do this for our software to work" and they will do it
I just met the coolest door to door salesman.
Wanted to sell me TV, but went about it really nicely. And understood why I didn't want it.
@MattGiltaji Which just brings it back around to the user's lack of computer sense. Any person can be told to do anything on any OS and if they don't know what's safe and what's not they'll do it.
No OS can protect from stupidity.
12:12 AM
@RPiAwesomeness Exactly. The point is that Linux doesn't have some special protection from that
@murgatroid99 so much this
@murgatroid99 Similar situation on Windows.
@RPiAwesomeness Windows isn't advertised as this magically secure OS though :P
@RPiAwesomeness You were the one who made the initial claim that Linux had special protection from viruses. That's what I was arguing against
@Chippies Neither is Linux. It's just one of its selling points.
12:14 AM
Linux is more secure than Windows if you want it to be and are smart enough to benefit from it
@RPiAwesomeness It's no more secure that Windows.
@RPiAwesomeness But this entire discussion just demonstrated that it's not a valid selling point
@Chippies Thiiiis
12:15 AM
I think main selling point of Linux is that it's not for sale. It's free.
Stupid formatting.
The only way to get true security is to do something like ChromeOS, which validates the kernel and half the file system against factory settings on boot
and even then
@RPiAwesomeness And how much of that is enabled by default?
@murgatroid99 and really, there's not much you can break in ChromeOS, since it's mostly just a glorified browser
12:16 AM
one bios trojan later and you're horsed.
@RPiAwesomeness shrug
Yes. The only way to get true security would be to remove the computer entirely from the network and never use it ever.
That doesn't make it magically virus proof
@Frank Pretty sure all of it.
12:17 AM
@Chippies You can mess with it if you want, and then reset it to factory when you get bored
Oh dear oh dear oh dear. I never said that Linux is entirely magical and virus proof.
It's Gentoo underneath
@murgatroid99 how can i install software on it outside of the browser?
I said that it's less susceptible to viruses.
@RPiAwesomeness you are heavily insinuating such
12:17 AM
@RPiAwesomeness I doubt it. Half of those features sound like a major pain for a regular user.
@AshleyNunn I'm sorry, I wasn't attempting to do that.
@RPiAwesomeness mostly because no one writes viruses for Linux, because there's no userbase :)
@MattGiltaji Enable developer mode through some mystical and arcane ritual, then you can open a shell by doing something
@murgatroid99 ooooh, excellent
fuck this game
12:18 AM
@murgatroid99 Ctrl + Alt + T
16 mins ago, by murgatroid99
@RPiAwesomeness That's because nobody writes viruses for Linux because nobody uses Linux
Now we have gone in a circle
@murgatroid99 I said that before you as well :P
so, double circle? lol
Hello all
12:19 AM
@murgatroid99 i suppose we shouldn't have ignored the earlier exception
@MattGiltaji but at that point we were only most of the way around the circle
That's a fairly blanket statement. People do use Linux. Heck 90%+ of the world's servers are Linux. Obviously, if it's used that much, you'd think that people would be trying to write viruses to get into those sites.
@Ktash hey you
@RPiAwesomeness no one downloads viruses on servers though (with some dumb exceptions)
I almost cried that time I hate this game
Why am I still playing it
12:20 AM
also server admins are kinda required to not be as dumb as an average user
@GnomeSlice because of the single nude scene per walkthough?
If that were it I would have just downloaded a save for it
@RPiAwesomeness linux on the server != linux on the desktop
and people do hack into servers one way or another all the time
A lot of servers that are vulnerable get taken over by botnets
12:21 AM
If the main character didn't talk like such a dumbshit it would be even worse
so that's something
@AshleyNunn :)
@GnomeSlice maybe the char has a "funky phone"
@MattGiltaji You're right. But I'm just showing that "nobody uses Linux" is a false statement.
I've read about systems that exploit vulnerabilities in PHP code and whatnot, then patch the vulnerability on the way in to keep other people out
@MattGiltaji I hate you
12:21 AM
@RPiAwesomeness "nobody" is an exaggeration, but appropriate one when compared to Windows userbase :P
@RPiAwesomeness But virus security isn't relevant to servers, so it's clear that you were talking about desktop users
@Ktash I got a new phone today and it makes me happy :D
@Chippies Linux has gained an entire percentage point in the last 5 years
also, people that use Linux are usually not the same people that get viruses on their windows machine
12:23 AM
@Chippies Not really.
@AshleyNunn Yay! :D
I haven't had a virus in years and I only have Windows Defender as antivirus with realtime protection set to off
@AshleyNunn which one did you go with?
@Chippies pretty much this
and the couple of times I got a virus was because I did something stupid and fully knew the risks I was taking
12:24 AM
Adware sometimes sneaks in mysteriously
@Unionhawk usually bundled with the JRE in my experience
"Oh I am pretty sure this .exe is a virus, but I really hope it's not! Lets open it!"
"Ooh, it was a virus, okay lets spend next 20 minutes getting rid of it"
Best RES ever
1.5m in less than an hour
@MattGiltaji The Moto G
and so fast
12:26 AM
Nice :)
that's really cool
and the battery has lasted since I got it and it was at 45% when I got it
And it takes really nice pictures
Okay. My statements that I've made are this:
1) Linux is more secure at the kernel level. It's harder to get elevated priveledges on Linux than Windows. Linux isn't a magical pixie land free of viruses and bad stuff. You *can* get viruses on Linux, but they're rarer and can't do damage.

2) No OS is going to protect against stupidity and sneakiness. You can get malware from an ad on a site on Windows - far harder to do so in Linux.

3) Linux is free and doesn't force you to do stupid crap like have a Windows live account just to use your own computer (Windows 10). However, using Linux gives
And that's all I'm going to say.
@RPiAwesomeness I don't need a Windows Live Account to use my computer
@AshleyNunn Windows 10 requires it, or will.
12:29 AM
Nor I
@AshleyNunn this
@WorldEngineer >>.
@RPiAwesomeness probably because it's still in preview
@RPiAwesomeness I think #1 is the point we (or at least I) have been arguing with
That could be true.
12:29 AM
@RPiAwesomeness dafuq?
@MattGiltaji ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Windows 10 requires it
@RPiAwesomeness Proof that it will when it isn't in preview? plz?
@RPiAwesomeness many people thought Windows 8 required it as well, even though there's an option to use an offline account
@Chippies This too!
Does 8 require such things? If no, then I think we have a good indication of the future.
12:30 AM
@AshleyNunn @Fluttershy @TimStone @ other people who care about beer exploits: lookit whut I have in the fridge
If yes, then this is a known issue
@Unionhawk 8 asks you to create/sign in with a live account by default at first boot, but you can just click "No, create offline account"
@AshleyNunn Valid point. I don't have proof.
@LessPop_MoreFizz grabbity hands
12:31 AM
@LessPop_MoreFizz oooo
@RPiAwesomeness Then I am going to have to toss that argument out
I will drink it while listening to Tom Scharpling ask Ellie Kemper if Eric Clapton should be shot into space
@LessPop_MoreFizz Well, should he?
@AshleyNunn Yes.
@LessPop_MoreFizz Thank you for satisfying my curiosity
12:33 AM
Wouldn't that turn him into David Bowie though?
@AshleyNunn I agree. Please do. I stand corrected and that argument is invalid.
But the other 3 remain.
@WorldEngineer No because David Bowie isn't a racist dirtbag
@WorldEngineer >.>
@LessPop_MoreFizz Trufax
@RPiAwesomeness if you're on a non-admin account (which you should be, if you're an average dumb user (no offense to average users)), you'd still need an admin password to have admin access
I agree that Linux is safer straight out of the box though
12:35 AM
@Chippies Yes, to access certain things. Windows still gives admin-level access to much of a computer - the PCWorld article explains this
Finally. It's safer OOB - which is what applies to a large amount of computer users.
@AshleyNunn That said you should listen because tom scharpling is hilarious and ellie kemper is great
@RPiAwesomeness I guess? In my experience, doing anything on a non-admin account is a pain in the ass, because it keeps saying you don't have the privileges
@LessPop_MoreFizz Is it an online thing?
@AshleyNunn YES! Starts streaming live in about half an hour
@RPiAwesomeness They seem to be comparing Windows users on home desktops to Linux users in a locked down corporate environment
12:36 AM
@RPiAwesomeness Yes, but you then need to know how to use it OOB and....most people are going to struggle
@RPiAwesomeness It depends. Large amount of computer users aren't going to install their OS themselves
@Chippies At least in 7, if you're on a non-admin account, and have UAC enabled, it'll give you a password prompt.
@LessPop_MoreFizz Link? :)
@AshleyNunn Oh brother. We're going back to this again?
12:37 AM
@Unionhawk I always have UAC disabled, so maybe that's the issue
@RPiAwesomeness Why not? It's a valid argument
@Chippies But it comes pre-installed with the default user as admin.
@LessPop_MoreFizz <3
@AshleyNunn Not terribly.
@Chippies Yeah, if it flat out tells you "no, cannot do" then possibly
@RPiAwesomeness Ubuntu comes pre-installed with the default user in sudoers
I love this guy
I don't see the difference
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@RPiAwesomeness Let's say we take my entire family. Hand them windows machines, and I think all of them (minus maybe my 87 year old grandma) would be able to at least (horror of horrors) find the internet and install a couple of things.
12:38 AM
@Unionhawk you can still shift+right click and run as different user and then run as admin though, which is good enough for me
I literally do not understand how people are annoyed at UAC in 7 and possibly later
@Unionhawk it asks if I want to do things all too often
Give them Linux, and I know, based on how I felt about Ubuntu, PuppyLinux, and OpenSUZE, and you will have a grumpy family yelling at me asking how to fix things.
@Chippies Not really?
and the dumb user will click yes anyway, so I don't see how it provides much security
@Unionhawk in my experience, it asks for confirmation on pretty much every executable :/
12:39 AM
@murgatroid99 Yes. So? You're given the ability to become root for that command - you're manually changing your user level. Windows gives you root access to basically everything OOB, you just have to give your password to confirm whatever it's doing - something viruses can easily bypass as proved by the countless ones out there.
@RPiAwesomeness No, it doesn't. It enables UAC by default
@Unionhawk Depends on how crappy the software you run is, I guess. I personally don't have that issue, so I'm inclined to agree with you.
UAC is great at training people to blindly click Yes. Best security ever!
That looks SO cheesy.
12:40 AM
@AshleyNunn You can do that on Linux, especially Ubuntu, too.
It's going to be great.
@Frank If by cheesy, you mean amazing, yes
@RPiAwesomeness hahahahahhahaha sobs
19 secs ago, by Frank
It's going to be great.
you are ignoring everything I say
@murgatroid99 Yes. But UAC is just confirming whatever is going on. Viruses can obviously get around UAC.
@AshleyNunn How?
12:41 AM
I am saying I, a non-idiot (my mother had me tested, for reals) struggled with teh damn thing trying to get it to work.
and you are saying that that is impossible
and that it is erasy
@TimStone I just don't see how it's providing with any security if you can just click yes on everything
and I am saying FOR ME and FOR OTHER PEOPLE I KNOW it isn't
so your overly broad statement is invalid
@RPiAwesomeness That's not much different from a program saying "you have to run with sudo" whenever you run without privileges
and usually when I'm running an executable, I know I want to run it and don't want to confirm it
I've used various distros, I am not stupid, I have had really smart people who love Linux try to help me, and I have still ended up in tears/
12:42 AM
@Chippies You're not supposed to have to click yes, which is the issue.
I never said it is impossible to have problems on Linux. It's impossible to not have problems on any OS at some point or another.
@TimStone so you click no, your program didn't start. What do you do now? You try again
@Chippies what programs are you running that consistently need admin access?
@Chippies This is literally the opposite of my experience
12:42 AM
Microsoft told people for years and years to stop trying to put crap in the installation directories and to use the user's app data folders instead.
@RPiAwesomeness every time I say "x is hard" you go "no it isn't" and I go "for me it is" and you go "but it isn't"
I can think of a handful of stuff that asks for confirmation, and i'm lumping installers into one category
Anyway, I think I am going to go watch Trek now
@murgatroid99 I can't name them right now, because I haven't used UAC on my computers since Windows 7
@Frank Heck yes it will be :)
12:43 AM
@AshleyNunn I never called you stupid. I don't know what you were trying to do, but most software that the average user is going to use is fairly easy to install.
But they didn't listen because they're dumb and so you have a lot of programs which require permission to write to UAc-protected locations for no particularly good reason.
@AshleyNunn which one?
I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to call you stupid and all that.
@MattGiltaji TNG, @WorldEngineer and I are working our way through the good bits of it :)
I'm not even sure if a program needs to have admin access to trigger UAC
12:43 AM
@AshleyNunn best trek
@Chippies That is what triggers UAC
Blargh. I give up. I'm going to go play something.
@murgatroid99 only that?
@Chippies That's what UAC is
12:44 AM
@MattGiltaji Picard makes me SO HAPPY
well, I run all kinds of different stuff all the time
@AshleyNunn Picard is the best
@Chippies some companies build their software in a lazy way that says it needs admin access if it needs it or not
Confirmations about "this is from an unknown location" don't require a password, for instance
@AshleyNunn I've recently rewatched some TNG just to watch him give speeches
12:44 AM
@murgatroid99 I love him and Data and Riker and yes everyone yay
@MattGiltaji that might be a big part of why it triggers
@murgatroid99 hahaha when I first got home from the hospital and back here, @WorldEngineer asked me what sort of ep I wanted and I said "A good Picard one, I love how he just talks at people and magic happens"
either way, I don't run anti virus and I have UAC disabled. Haven't had viruses in years, and even if I did have UAC enabled, I'd still click yes on that executable with a virus, because how am I supposed to know it has a virus without running it?
@AshleyNunn The Inner Light!
@AshleyNunn flute one!
12:46 AM
@MattGiltaji I love that ep. We ended up watching the Gambit two parter :)
@AshleyNunn I think my favorites are Measure of a Man and Drumhead
I have never had UAC trigger on anything I didn't want to run
@murgatroid99 I really liked Chain of Command even though it was horrifying
@Chippies It's supposed to be more like a "Hey, I didn't do anything. Why does something need admin access?"
I just spilled milk fucking ll over everything typing that
12:47 AM
@Chippies That just means that your antivirus is working
@GnomeSlice aaaaaaaa :(
@murgatroid99 I hope not, considering I have realtime protection disabled
@OrigamiRobot I know that's what it's supposed to be like, but it never is for me
@Chippies Or just that you haven't downloaded anything you shouldn't
12:49 AM
And they are explaining why the way it's supposed to be isn't the way it is: bad programming and not following proposed conventions.
@murgatroid99 I have spent many years pirating a lot of things, so I have a fairly decent feel of what is and what isn't trustable
Microsoft's biggest mistake was making the dialog not blame the program author more explicitly so people would hate everyone writing shitty software instead of UAC.
@OrigamiRobot also, some things, like installers, legitimately do need admin access
for an average user, UAC teaches to just click yes
if you click no, you don't get your program running
@Chippies classical conditioning in action
12:51 AM
if you have to make a decision if you trust this executable or not, then you're bordering the line between average user and a "smart" user, which an average user is not
if you can make a decision or even understand what UAC is asking, you probably don't even need UAC
@Chippies Unless you think there's some potential of an unauthorized program attempting to run
> “Home Depot™ Presents the Police!®” I said, flashing my badge and my gun and a small picture of Ron Paul. “Nobody move unless you want to!” They didn’t. “Now, which one of you punks is going to pay me to investigate this crime?” No one spoke up.
@murgatroid99 yeah, well, that is a possibility, but I can't think of scenarios where that would happen without user interaction
The worst part of having a 443 song library: The lack of the ability to find that one album you want to listen to :P
12:54 AM
@RPiAwesomeness Isn't this why they invented search?
@murgatroid99 Yes. I'm just too lazy :P
@RPiAwesomeness 443? are you missing a digit? You can scroll through that in seconds
@Chippies I need to increase my album art size :P
@RPiAwesomeness I just want to point out that you're too lazy to type the name of an album into a search box, but not too lazy to tell us about not wanting to do that
12:56 AM
I'm too lazy to be lazy and use a search box...boy do I look stupid now
@RPiAwesomeness ... 443 songs? That's all?
/me hides under a rock
taken directly from foobar2000
I tend to find songs I forgot I even had
@Chippies Whoa
12:56 AM
I'm at ~20,000 songs
@RPiAwesomeness This reminds me my ipod is being dumb and the skip forward button isn't working right :(
Welp. I look excessively stupid now
But that excludes the ~20gb or so that I don't have in iTunes, which is probably another 5-10k songs
@LessPop_MoreFizz I didn't move my music folder from my old laptop to the new one, so there's a lot missing
@AshleyNunn iPod Nano?
12:57 AM
@AshleyNunn It's On!
My mom's iPod Nano 4th gen has that issue :P
(Well, Tom is playing music for a little while, which he does at the start of the show.)
@RPiAwesomeness iPod Classic
I know eventually I will have to replace it but damn it I don't want a touch, I want what I haaaaave because I like it
@AshleyNunn About the same age. Must be an issue with the clicker wheel design they had.
And I don't want any other thing
12:58 AM
It's held up quite well for its age.
But the stream is live and you can turn it on.
I suspect it got crap in it or something
@LessPop_MoreFizz Excellent. Will likely keep with the Trek watching plans, but also am intrigued...
@AshleyNunn The show is recorded and podcast comes out the next day (with music cut out for rights reasons), so there's also that option.
@LessPop_MoreFizz awesome :D
@AshleyNunn have you considered getting something like this ?

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