The Nineteenth Byte

Doorknob

00:00

@wat I think El'endia explained it very clearly.

New Main Posts

-1

Q: Write a /(meta-)*Quine/

So what is a Meta-Quine? Quine: program which outputs its own source code. Meta-Quine: Program which takes no input and outputs a quine. Meta-meta-quine: Program which takes no input and outputs a Meta-Quine. Meta-meta-meta-quine: Program which takes no input and outputs a Meta-meta-quine. etc.....

quine

redstarcoder

@TrojanByAccident, in what way is this question different from this question? Besides a subtle scoring difference

Pavel

The final result doesn't reconstruct the original

It's close enough that I'd still mark as dupe.

redstarcoder

It doesn't in either of them though does it?

The first one just words it differently A program which matches the criteria for multiple levels counts as the lowest one.

VoteToClose

SQL-specific challenge that was asked on the wrong site.

Pavel

00:14

Oh, I missread the original.

Yep, exactly the same.

TrojanByAccident

@redstarcoder @Pavel No, the original is asking for a program that will output a second program that then outputs the first program. This new one is asking for a program that will output a program that will then output itself, not the original program

It's still trivial, but not a dupe

redstarcoder

Ah you're right I see it

The original constantly outputs different sources, the new one devolves into a regular quine

Pavel

I was right the first time, reread the question, and became wrong.

redstarcoder

Yeah sorry about that

Pavel

It's close enough though.

redstarcoder

00:18

Yeah I think it might be, either way it needed more sandbox time

(or any)

TrojanByAccident

lol, if my current pgs interpreter accepted the commands needed, I could have submitted a 2-byte 2-level answer

Pavel

Oh?

How?

TrojanByAccident

I think

I'm not completely sure of what my o command does, but iirc, it forces the previous item/command to be output

although that might need to be changed

for this challenge, I would need O, which would probably be one of the only commands in the language that went before the thing it was affecting

and so I could write Oq, 'output next item without calling it, quine(doesn't get called)'

Pavel

It would output an improper quine.

Quine commands are illegal

TrojanByAccident

indeed

so is pirating

it still happens

publicly, even

redstarcoder

00:25

I'm not sure if we have a rule against piracy, but it's probably offtopic.

TrojanByAccident

@redstarcoder I mean illegal irl, not on the site, lol

Pavel

You won't be arrested, but you would be flagged as NAA and downvoted.

Conor O'Brien

are you sure you're an accidental trojan?

TrojanByAccident

@ConorO'Brien The first trojan I ever made was accidental, yes

Conor O'Brien

>_> remind me never to tick you off

TrojanByAccident

00:28

:P

Pavel

How did you do that?

@Downgoat ^ Request: Add space between challenge posing buttons and the links to the left of them, center it better.

It looks ugly right now.

TrojanByAccident

@Pavel magically :P

Pavel

Hey, do you have tampermonkey installed?

TrojanByAccident

Yes

I use it for hacking, scripting, and botting online games

easier than bookmarklets ^-^

Pavel

github.com/vihanb/PPCG-Design

This is for you then

TrojanByAccident

00:37

Already have it

VoteToClose

I am having no such issue.

Conor O'Brien

same

Pavel

Gahd dammit

Conor O'Brien

are you using IE? ಠ_ಠ

Pavel

Chrome

VoteToClose

00:38

From 2007?

Pavel

Considering I built this computer late last year, no.

VoteToClose

You might need to update the script, dude. :P

Pavel

I just installed it yesterday tho

TrojanByAccident

I don't know what you guys have, but mine isn't even green

Conor O'Brien

it's a dark theme

Pavel

00:40

Also, the porpoise text isn't working. It always shows propose, and I can't change it.

Not that I would want to.

Where is this goat? He's never there when you ping him.

TrojanByAccident

@Pavel You just edit a word in the script

Pavel

I'm fine with the text as it is.

It's the CSS that's triggering me.

TrojanByAccident

lol

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

dude it's you

mine is currently on propoise iirc and it has no spacing problems

Pavel

We've determined that

But I don't JS, so I can't fix it.

So I pinged Downgoat

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

00:50

how would he fix it

TrojanByAccident

@Pavel Can you copy and paste your version of the script to pastebin for us?

Pavel

hastebin.com/kihatekebo.js

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

that's a really old version >_<

wtf

> 3.6.4

@Pavel current is 3.9.11

Pavel

Where do I get new version?

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

github.com/vihanb/PPCG-Design/blob/master/ppcg.user.js

TrojanByAccident

00:57

@Pavel ntbr, but are you sure you don't need your eyes checked? ;P

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

@Pavel fixed now?

Pavel

Yes

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

cool

Pavel

I didn't know what the current version was

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

@Downgoat ping retracted, he had old version

@Pavel it's not really hard, its' there on the main repo page

Pavel

00:59

I clicked the link in the repo to install the script

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

and?

check your history

what link

Pavel

github.com/vihanb/PPCG-Design

Which was updated really recently

So I'm confused

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

hey I made that broken commit

in february 2016

I was the dropdown-maker

and it was broken for 2 commits because I typoed

@Pavel are you sure you installed it yesterday?

Pavel

Yes.

Downgoat

Question: should it be Console.stdin or IO.stdin?

Pavel

01:06

Try both and see what compiles

Downgoat

This is for cheddar, so I need to descide which one sounds better

redstarcoder

IO.stdin sounds better to me

TrojanByAccident

I personally like Console.stdin, but IO.stdin is shorter

redstarcoder

I like IO.stdin because I don't necessarily think of a console when I think of stdin

VoteToClose

@Downgoat IO.stdin makes more sense when considering a non-console environment.

Pavel

01:08

It's called stdio, right?

not stdconsole

Conor O'Brien

@VoteToClose I agree

Pavel

@Downgoat how does 'Auto-TryItOnline execution' work?

Downgoat

@Pavel I don't know

Pavel

No, I mean it appears to not do anything.

Downgoat

oh, yeah, it only works with legacy TIO

I have stuffs for new TIO but I don't tihnk anyone even used it

Pavel

01:14

I used it that one time you linked me to it.

Auto-tio execution seems nice though.

Downgoat

Problem is, new TIO is very slow at around ~5 seconds to execute a single code. On a large question it'll take like a minute to load all TIO stuff

It'll also be a huge strain on TIO server

Pavel

Maybe a button below the TIO link to execute it?

Downgoat

@Dennis Is TIO server currently being strained a lot in terms of resources and all?

Pavel

Just so you don't have to open a new tab

quartata

That's just because the arena is on a separate server

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

01:21

@Pavel yeah, it used to automatically display Try-it-online output:\n`outputhere` below all TIO links

but as the goat said, it died :/

it was partially borken anyway

TrojanByAccident

what's new tio, and what's legacy tio? how are they different?

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

TIO is undergoing a massive update

right now the TIO "nexus" is the intermediate step, while dennis works on TIO v2

Pavel

Legacy TIO doesn't exist anymore

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

TIO 1 is redirects to nexus

Pavel

All it does is redirect

Ninja'd

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

01:24

and it's not quite the same, so it doesn't work with the userscript execute-then-fetch-results code

Pavel

tio.run vs tio.run/nexus

Personally, I think Dennis should just kill V2 and work on Nexus.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

why?

Pavel

I think it's better in every way

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

the whole point of nexus is that's it's an intermediate

@Pavel ... you know he's barely started on v2 right

of course nexus is better atm

Pavel

Also, it displays on my phone properly.

Why not just continue extending Nexus?

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

01:26

...yeah you're not supposed to be using tio v2 yet the whole point is it doesn't work yet

@Pavel check transcript/search, he's explained before

Pavel

It's buried somewhere really deep then.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

ye

Pavel

Maltysen

oh noes groudon...

TrojanByAccident

?

Maltysen

01:32

twitch.tv/gamesdonequick

TrojanByAccident

oh

New Sandboxed Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Match coordinates with their values Given 3 input items, a list of coordinate pairs, a 2D string, and a single-character string, output whether the character at each coordinate of the 2D string is equal to the single character. Example: (0,0), "#_\n__", "#" -> True The string is #_ __ The ...

Mistah Figgins

man, i want more TASbot at gdq

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

01:48

this chat is literally cancer

I don't know what I expected

Mistah Figgins

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ The gdq one? yeah

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

ye

Dennis

@Downgoat If you mean the arena, it depends. On average it's not very busy, but from time to time there are a few concurrent requests.

TrojanByAccident

Arena?

Dennis

I'll see if I can implement cached output this week. That should take a lot of load off the arena.

@TrojanByAccident The arena is the server that runs the user-supplied code.

TrojanByAccident

01:56

For?

Dennis

tio.run/nexus

Downgoat

@Dennis but solutions utilising Random()?

redstarcoder

That's what I was wondering ... ^

Maltysen

@Downgoat checkbox for nocache?

Dennis

I'll add a no-cache checkbox somewhere.

ninja'd

Pavel

02:00

I will 100% of the time forget to tick that box and wonder why my code isn't working.

Dennis

Considering that randomness is used in maybe 1% of all fiddles, I can live with that.

Maltysen

@Dennis maybe have nocache if from same instance?

Pavel

I use TIO just for whenever I need to write a short python script

It's easier than opening up IDLE, which also requires me to save the file to my computer.

redstarcoder

I just type "python" into a console

or vim

Dennis

@Maltysen That sounds doable.

Conor O'Brien

02:03

@Dennis oh btw idk what you did but tio nexus works on IE :D

Pavel

It works on everything

Dennis

What version?

Pavel

Including my windows phone

Downgoat

maybe also do a if (code.contains("rand")) nocache = true?

Pavel

Which is astounding

Conor O'Brien

02:04

@Dennis 8 I think

Downgoat

O_O wow

Maltysen

@Downgoat but that depends on the language

Pavel

@Downgoat what about [every esolang]

Downgoat

@Pavel I never said it was exauhstive solution

but cuts most non-esolangs

Dennis

@ConorO'Brien That can't be true. IE 8 doesn't have typed arrays.

Pavel

02:04

Except v2 doesn't work on my phone

Conor O'Brien

@Dennis weird. I can try again, but it seemed to work fine

Pavel

I'm relying on Dennis not to kill nexus in the near future

Downgoat

@Pavel Solution: vihan.org/p/tio </selfadvertising> :P

It should support IE 9+ (not sure about 8)

Conor O'Brien

@Downgoat your website died on my comp

Downgoat

D: what happened

Pavel

02:07

It's not that V2 just doesn't output. It's that the Welcome to Try It Online version 2! message takes up the entire screen, and 'Dissmis mesage' doesn't work.

Your version has similarly broken formatting

Though it is useable.

Downgoat

@Pavel D: that is not right, screenshot?

I think a bell which opens notification dropdown would be better

Pavel

imgur.com/a/pqYnq

It works, it's just ugly and cumbersome.

Downgoat

ugh, stupid IE think 33+66=103

Pavel

You thought CSS for IE was hard? Try CSS for WP.

Downgoat

Firefox did the same stupid

@Pavel AFAIK WP uses IE internals too because Micrsoft

Dennis

02:12

@Pavel v2 doesn't work properly on anything yet. It's in early alpha.

Pavel

It does

But everything displays worse because of the resolution

Dennis

@Downgoat Sorry, but that's a horrible band-aid solution with a lot of false positives and negatives. Maltysen's idea is a lot better.

@Pavel Don't worry. Nexus will remain operative until v2 is actually better than Nexus. And it will.

Pavel

Why not continue extending Nexus, instead of replacing it?

Downgoat

I realize but false positive will happen around 0.01% of time and those few not caching doesn't seem like very critical problem. Will be big convinience on other hand

Maybe just have nexus redirect to v2 so everything will still work

Dennis

@Pavel That's just semantics. Nexus is called Nexus because it's a bridge between v1 and v2. The final result, wherever it comes from, will scrap the Nexus from the name and simply be known as Try It Online.

Downgoat

02:16

@Pavel can you clear cache and try on your windows phone now

Pavel

Yay!

WP doesn't have a clear cache thing. It's just 'Wipe everything since the beginning of time' with a tickbox to store passwords.

So I'm glad your site wasn't cached

Downgoat

@Pavel It worked? :O

I am surprised that fixed it

Pavel

It's good now!

Downgoat

HTML is only language where removing comment fixes bug

Dennis

@Downgoat 0.01% of the time? Randomness can come from process IDs, system time, memory addresses, race conditions, the output of C's rand isn't actually random, the 106 esolangs hosted on TIO most likely won't use rand anywhere, etc., etc., etc.

Conor O'Brien

02:21

TIO is the lazy solution. Real mean port languages to JavaScript, then cry about it afterwords.

Downgoat

^ This is good idea

Then cry in TNB because you don't know how to port to C++

Dennis

Good luck.

Pavel

Huh. When I turn my phone horizontally, the code field is a custom field with line numbers, but vertically it's the default text entry box.

Dennis

Of course client-side interpreters have their benefits, but TIO wouldn't host anywhere close to 166 languages if they all had to be ported to the same language first.

Conor O'Brien

a lot of those are esolangs and easier to implement--others would take months

Pavel

02:23

Slowly start porting everything to C, and increase TIO speed.

Dennis

You do realize TIO isn't my full-time job, aye?

Pavel

I'm sure some people can help out

Qwerp-Derp

class CentreText {
  float[] coords;
  String text;
  float font_size;

  float text_width;

  CentreText(String txt, int size, float x, float y) {
    coords = new float[] {x, y};
    text = txt;
    font_size = size;

    textSize(font_size);
    text_width = textWidth(text);
  }

  void changeFontSize(float size) {
    font_size = size;
    textSize(font_size);
    text_width = textWidth(text);
  }

  void displayText() {
    fill(#000000);
    text(text, coords[0] - (text_width / 2), coords[1] - (font_size / 2));

I have a basic button class in Processing yey

Dennis

That's just a complete and utter waste of human resources. Plus, C isn't a speed guarantee.

Pavel

Also, the thought just occurred to me that there isn't a BF implementation with a 3-bit character encoding. Or at least I can't find one.

This could totally make BF the best golfing language.

Downgoat

02:26

Okay I added a "Copy SE Post" button

Dennis

@Pavel tio.run/nexus/sesos

Downgoat

@Pavel they are quite a few, I think @LegionMammal978 made one too

Dennis

There are others. Sesos goes a bit further than that.

Pavel

Ok, so I just can't find them because they're called weird things.

Conor O'Brien

@Dennis it is?

Dennis

02:29

@Pavel Well, I certainly wasn't going to create a language with fuck in its name.

@ConorO'Brien I wish.

Qwerp-Derp

Argh Processing is pretty borked

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

> real mean

that does seem mean to the languages yes

Conor O'Brien

s/e//

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

ik but lol

Pavel

@Downgoat it's borked, All I got is # Java (OpenJDK), 16 bytes without the rest of it.

Downgoat

02:31

oh oops

TrojanByAccident

lol

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

^

Pavel

^^

Downgoat

@Pavel The prompt might now show entire data, can you copy and paste somehwere to verify?

Qwerp-Derp

@Downgoat Comment-opening in your userscript is borked

Doesn't open the comments at all, and moves to the top of screen

Downgoat

02:33

Happy News: I got 97% (A+) on CS final!!! :D

13

Pavel

I had that issue too just now @Qwerp-Derp

Downgoat

@Qwerp-Derp yay, another thing I made is broken

Pavel

Reload the page

Mistah Figgins

nice

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

@Downgoat nice!

Qwerp-Derp

02:33

@Downgoat Congrats!

Dennis

It's always hard to judge your own work objectively, so I'd like to request some input. I'm considering self-nominating my answers to Coprimes up to N, Compute the Carmichael function, and Absolute Sums of Sidi Polynomial Coefficients for Best mathematical insight and/or Best Explanation. Thoughts?

Pavel

@Downgoat nope, might be caching though.

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

@Maltysen still with the AGDQ?

Pavel

I have 99% in my CS class. I do not have a difficult CS class.

wat

What just happened

Conor O'Brien

02:36

@Dennis You're a math genius, I'm sure all three would be received with equal appreciation

Qwerp-Derp

1

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Convert between balanced bases! code-golf math base-conversion Balanced bases: Balanced bases are essentially the same as normal bases, except that digits can be positive or negative, while in normal bases digits can only be positive. From here on, balanced bases of base b may be represented a...

Also I might need some reviews on this

Conor O'Brien

but I like Sidi the best

Qwerp-Derp

@Dennis For the coprimes one, I got stuck on the word "ring" for your explanation

But it looks really detailed

Downgoat

@Dennis I do not speak math, but as Conor also said all three, are I think excellent candidates for the it. Lemme do a check on which has more greek letters :P

Pavel

@Downgoat according to your status page, staging.vihan.org is up, but when I visit it, it 404s.

Maltysen

02:38

@Dennis definitly the coprimes one

Downgoat

oh, "up" just means the server is working. The bottom "client tests" says whether or not it is actually doing the right thing

Pavel

I see.

Maltysen

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ srry, I got called to dinner after he beat the first elite 4

Qwerp-Derp

@Dennis I don't think this is the effect you want on people with your nomination reasons, but I think the reason these three should be nominations is because it's really detailed and contains loads of complicated stuff that I don't understand

Pavel

You should just take some time off of creating new stuff, and spend a week or two deborking the existing stuff.

Qwerp-Derp

02:40

^^ Which works

Dennis

@Qwerp-Derp Well, that would make them pretty awful candidates for Best Explanation then. :P

Qwerp-Derp

@Dennis What are rings?

I understand Z but not rings

Dennis

Sets for numbers with addition and multiplication. Z is a ring.

Qwerp-Derp

Example?

I'm too confuse

Dennis

Z, Q, R, and C are all rings. So are the integers modulo n I describe in that answer. The word ring is a hyperlink btw.

This is the rigorous definition.

Qwerp-Derp

02:43

@Dennis IK, but Wikipedia made me more confused

Maltysen

also, all nxn matrixes over a ring make another ring

Conor O'Brien

so a ring could be (Z, +, *) where a * b = 1 and a + b = 0

Qwerp-Derp

So a ring is essentially an infinite list of all numbers which satisfy certain properties?

Dennis

It's essentially a construct where addition and multiplication have similar properties to their counterparts in Z. You got a sum which has the same properties as + in Z, and a multiplication with a 1 (something you multiply with an element to get the same element) and which distributes over sums.

El'endia Starman

I think you guys are going too technical and/or too loose. A set of numbers where adding or multiplying any two of them yields another number that's in the same set is a ring. (There are a couple other conditions that have to be fulfilled, but that's the gist of it.)

Dennis

02:46

@Qwerp-Derp It doesn't have to be infinite.

Qwerp-Derp

So it's a list of numbers which satisfy certain properties?

El'endia Starman

@Qwerp-Derp That's true of basically every structure on numbers. :P

Maltysen

@Qwerp-Derp along with a defined addition and multiplication operator. they set and the operators together have to satisfy these properties

Conor O'Brien

So {0, 1} equipped with and (*) and or (+) is a ring, right?

Dennis

@ConorO'Brien Assuming you mean that's for all a and b, no. According to your definition, you'd get 1 + 0 = 0.

Maltysen

02:47

and as dennis said, its just your usual properties

Dennis

@Qwerp-Derp Pretty much. There are all the basics you'd expect from the integers. For example, a + b = b + a.

Downgoat

Pavel

You should link this discussion in a comment on your answer

Downgoat

I fixed meme

Conor O'Brien

@Dennis oh, right. there are so many problems with my first statement haha

El'endia Starman

02:49

@Downgoat That's one surprised goat.

Qwerp-Derp

So in a ring (Z, +), where a + b = 0, {-5, 5} belongs in the ring right?

Or does a ring need to have more arguments or smth

Maltysen

@Pavel rings wasn't really an important part of his answer

Pavel

Ah

Maltysen

he was just talking about the integers mod n

Qwerp-Derp

Also does + have to have a + b = 0?

Dennis

02:50

Yeah, the answer should be just as understandable if you don't know what a ring is.

@Qwerp-Derp There has to be one b such that a + b = 0. That's simply -a in the integers.

Lynn

Are Jelly and M two versions of the same language?

(For rosetta-stone purposes)

Dennis

Strictly speaking, no. If you're asking for sharing is caring, polyglots aren't allowed though.

Pavel

Hey, Dennis, what is 'With great power comes great eleven.' about on your profile?

Downgoat

Apr 12 '16 at 6:31, by Dennis

@Sherlock9 mod abuse -> mod abuse!!! -> mod abuse !!11!1!! -> mod abuse !!eleven!1!! -> mod abuse eleven -> eleven

quartata

mod abuse eleven

Dennis

02:52

chat.stackexchange.com/…

Specifically:

Apr 6 '16 at 23:03, by Dennis

♫ I have eleven problems, but mod abuse ain't one. ♫

Pavel

>_>

ETHproductions

@Dennis I personally enjoyed the game show analogy in the third answer, while the others were mostly over my head.

Dennis

@ETHproductions Yeah, I really like that one. That weird analogy was the only thing that allowed me to crack the problem, and I think it makes it a good candidate for both categories.

Lynn

@Dennis It’s kind of a silly rule. I can write *.5^0 and *.^0 I guess

Pavel

How do you guys all have permalinks to that able to be brought up so quickly?

Lynn

02:55

And I’ve wrapped isqrt (Maple builtin answer) in parentheses to distinguish it from Common Lisp

Dennis

@Lynn Oh, I assumed no polyglots meant it can't work in two languages.

@Pavel We're just quick searchers.

Lynn

That would be interesting

TrojanByAccident

Jan 5 at 20:57, by devRicher

A little bit of magic is required.

Lynn

The challenge doesn’t say that, though, no

TrojanByAccident

(unrelated quote, but :P)

Dennis

02:56

@Lynn I think that would actually make a nice general distinguisher for rosetta-stone challenges.

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