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12:11 AM
@Xirema I love my campaign. XD
 
I love that "potion of healing"
 
@Helwar All I can say is, the Artificer passed her INT check to disguise some of her potions....
 
wonderful
I had an "oily vial" in my inventory for weeks. It's great when your DM (or fellow player) hands you a note with the title between quotes :P
 
12:43 AM
@V2Blast There's a clause in the original that says the poison lasts for a number of days equal to your proficiency bonus.
I felt it would be annoying to do bookkeeping on when you made a particular vial of poison.
And so reducing potency to just one day greatly reduces the bookkeeping involved. Did I make it today? Yes -> it's good/No -> it's not good anymore.
 
 
1 hour later…
1:46 AM
@BESW Incidentally, I believe there was (of course!) a magic item to make sneak attack work on undead in 3.5, but you had to both know about it and afford it, so...
 
There were at least three ways to make sneak attack work vs undead, but they were all gated in ways that prevented them from being attained as early as it was possible to be rendered ineffective, and they tended to require a lot of sunk costs.
 
But zombos are one of the earliest enemies you can fight :(
 
Meanwhile, spellcasters are... spellcasters.
 
Now you've gotten me to pull out my books.
The Weapon Crystal I was thinking of apparently costs 5000 gp, plus an 18000 gp weapon to put it on, making it only remotely feasible by level 8 or so, and only if you violate "don't spend more than half your wealth on one thing".
 
2:03 AM
There's at least two stunts, but I'm pretty sure they have level gates and/or reduce your max SA dice when using them.
And there's at least one PrC but... level gates and massive commitment.
 
there is a rule about not wasting more than half your money on any one thing??? Now I know why I'm always desperately poor!
 
@Helwar As often happens, I think that's true both in D&D and in real life.
 
I recommended to my players that they not sink more than 1/3 of their gold into any single item.
 
But but but... that shiny sword!
haha
 
I had thought that "no more than half" was a rule, but I can't seem to find it in 3.5 DMG or PHB.
I tended not to do that, once I figured out the Christmas Tree magic item philosophy. That is, three +1 items that stack cost much less than one +3 item.
 
2:08 AM
well I'd never think this was a rule rule, just a guideline?
 
Apparently, I don't know.
 
I was writing something about my world... then it made me think about Moana... Now I'm watching Moana...
 
I've watched that movie (or parts of it) far, far too many times.
 
I watched when it came out.... and now I guess
 
Ash
2:23 AM
Moana is such a good movie.
 
It's pretty good the first, say, 40-50 times, but it wears pretty thin by 300.
 
haha
fair enough
 
Ash
3:12 AM
@JoelHarmon I can imagine.
 
3:28 AM
6
Q: How much damage should a creature take if it is walking across lava while wearing a Ring of Water Walking?

DragoonKiteBasically the title. Just wondering what a good amount would be if a creature with a Ring of Water Walking ran across a stream of lava? They don't sink into it and they get completely across so they don't end their turn on top of it.

 
 
1 hour later…
4:31 AM
1
Q: What abilities can hex target on a white adult dragon?

Francisco De La PazWhat abilities can hex target on a white adult dragon? Which would you target? Is Dragon Breath Ability? You place a curse on a creature that you can see within range. Until the spell ends, you deal an extra 1d6 necrotic damage to the target whenever you hit it with an attack. Also, choo...

 
Moana is a good movie, very enjoyable
But it's creation is,... Problematic
 
 
2 hours later…
6:11 AM
@JoelHarmon ...That's a lot.
 
7:07 AM
 
lol
 
7:22 AM
Morning all
 
Morning
 
@BESW Truly terrifying.
 
8:31 AM
@JoelHarmon I also had that in my head as a rule but can't find it in 3.5 or PF. Closest is DMG 199 suggests when creating characters above first level you could restrict them to spending no more than a quarter of their wealth on one item
PF's guidance for chars above first level has a percentage breakdown of recommended spend on various categories of item
oh no, the DMG just has contradictory guidance in different parts! rpg.stackexchange.com/a/19242/28402
 
@Carcer PF guidance chart also state that you should just spend the remaining money of each category on any category you want... So you might as well do as you like with such wording
(To mitigate - I don't know the exact wording in english, but the french version is baaad )
 
8:55 AM
4
Q: Are hit dice used to add damage?

Austin CruceI know it’s a stupid question, but allow me to explain. I’m a DM with a group of players who all learned how to play at the same time about a year ago, (me included). We got off to a rough start and still don’t know all the rules, but it’s D&D 5e by the way. And we’ve always played in the way tha...

 
 
2 hours later…
11:04 AM
@V2Blast Yes, yes it is. A certain someone used it as her screen time nearly every day for about a year.
 
You liked Moana?
(Yeah, sorry to but in, busy morning, did not notice until now)
 
@Nyakouai You could do much, much worse for a Disney move.
 
I guess, yeah, but I found it so underwhelming... Like, the technical performance is amazing, the songs are good, I liked the humor... But plot-wise...
Okay, I'm getting older and grumpier, but still...
I really enjoyed it, but after viewing, I didn't find it that good for a Disney
 
I mean, it's a children's movie. Of course the plot is going to be both weak and contrived.
 
Yeah, it wasn't very interested in Pasifica epistemology and that really showed.
 
11:12 AM
Meh. You have (what's the title in english) The Hunchback from Notre-Dame ? and The Lion's King which have simple but efficient plot
I may be remembering them through the prism of nostalgia, though
 
The Hunchback of Notre-Dame and The Lion King, yes.
 
(Ah yeah, I see the mistakes now, makes sense. Sorry about that)
 
A focus on wayfinding as a praxis for ka mura, ka muri, would've made for a much more compelling character arc, I think. And less of the coconuts and making Māui a dumb jock, please. That wasn't cool.
 
(No problem! Not everyone has English as their first language, and translation is hard anyway. Try throwing stuff into something like Google Translate, then taking the result and re-translating it back.)
 
And Te Kā was just... no. That's not how ANY of that works.
 
11:18 AM
@BESW Not familiar enough with Polynesian folklore to comment on that. The aesthetic was nice, it did the trick for non-knowledgeable viewers
 
The idea of a volcano goddess as bad or evil is very very Western.
 
I would not have assumed that there's more than a passing resemblance to actual regional folklore in the film
 
May 18 '17 at 4:02, by BESW
The themes of Moana are largely Disney and NOT Polynesian or Pasifika. Moana's personal journey is very Disney Princess; the depiction of a volcano as evil or bad or corrupted is downright offensive; Māui's portrayal is... well, Māui can be found in the stories and faiths of many different cultures and he's always a bit different, but it's hard to see the film's version in any of them. He's usually physically unimpressive but extremely clever, almost a trickster character.
 
it seems like volcanoes would be great because volcanoes make islands
 
May 18 '17 at 3:57, by BESW
The visuals are mostly right, though not always treated with appropriate respect (eg Moana's grandmother would probably not have chosen her manta ray malu; in most cultures it would have been bestowed on her by an elder after years of forming a relationship). Also I don't care how nasty your coconut is, only someone like Māui or Gadao could crack it open so casually.
Dec 15 '17 at 22:21, by BESW
It could branch out into other subjects like the ways Moana doesn't understand the Pasifika relationship with the landscape, but the core conclusion is that the film is about identity and it completely fails to understand that indigenous identities often don't start with the self.
Dec 15 '17 at 1:03, by BESW
Like, straight up Moana is not a Polynesian story because it's resting on Hero's Journey tropes, and Polynesian stories don't buy into the epistemological assumptions about community and individuals which the Hero's Journey presupposes.
May 18 '17 at 4:17, by BESW
I will say, I've never before seen an animated film where I felt like I knew the environment. Those scenes on the beaches of Moana's home island? The terrain was shockingly familiar.
May 18 '17 at 4:18, by BESW
...There was an unfortunate obesession with coconuts though. That's kind of a stereotype; coconut is important in the Pacific, but taro would realistically be the crop they were most worried about losing.
May 18 '17 at 4:28, by BESW
Oh, and that thing with the ocean. I don't even know where to start with that. Let's just say it's at least both lazy and dumb, and potentially one of the most racist things in the whole film.
 
11:21 AM
What thing with the ocean? Saw that a while ago
 
@Carcer I think this is true of most any Disney film. For example, the original The Little Mermaid ends with her suicide.
 
When you say "the thing with the ocean", I remember the ocean's tendril putting Moana back on the boat
@JoelHarmon The true stories are way too dark to be sold to children :P
From the top of my head, she feels like walking on blades and needles every step she makes, the prince ditch her for another, her sisters sacrifice their hairs to obtain a knife with which she has to slice the prince's throat and pour his blood on her legs to revert back to mermaid. But since she still loves him, she refuses and dies of despair, dissolving into sea-foam
 
Yeeeah. They glanced at thousands of years of Pasifika oceanfaring technology and science... and then just shrugged and did the Pocahontas "If you listen with your heart" thing. Replacing knowledge and skill with mystical-connection-to-nature nonsense.
 
My little girl-cousins would probably enjoy this story WAY less than the Disney version :P
 
Of course, the whole "accuracy and respect within the fiction" thing is secondary to the real-life problems with an American corporation looking at groups of people America has stolen sovereignty from, suppressed the language and culture of, conducted lethal multi-generational medical experiments on, etc... and pretended that getting a handful of academics to sign off on it and throwing out a couple of scholarships made it okay to copyright and commodify their culture, arts, and faiths.
 
11:29 AM
@BESW Ah, that! Yeah, thought it was at least weird how they sail and just hope to find the islands they're looking for
 
@Carcer (Good find, thanks!)
 
@BESW Touchy subject for you, isn't it? :P
 
I live here?
 
(No offense meant, I also find it distasteful - I wouldn't consider myself at "offended" on this point - but it seems particularly important to you)
This explains that
 
Ash
@BESW nods it's one of those things I like because I like Disney style music a lot but it's also very, very broken and it makes me tired that it is broken still. (It's like when preteen me figured out the actual Pocohontas story.)
 
11:32 AM
I'm pretty passionate about any Indigenous exploitation, but the Pacific is my home. Disney is talking over the voices of my friends and family with Moana.
Moana represents Polynesia --and realistically all Pasifika because that distinction is not made in pop culture-- to the world, louder and more effectively than any Polynesian or Pasifika voices.
 
Disney does have a pretty loud voice
Side-not-completely-unrelated topic: how would you feel if they took an actual folk tale, but screwed the ending to soften it and sell it to children?
 
Ash
The Mouse has a giant megaphone and they scream into it
 
(Thing they basically did for most of their first movies)
(Is movie the appropriate word for this media? Or is it more used for live-action?)
 
I don't care much about their accuracy to the source material for the sake of the story, I care about how their choices in making stories change the world.
 
@Nyakouai movie is a sufficiently generic term
 
11:36 AM
"Movie" is a good word for most any long-length stand-alone audio/video media.
 
Ok, thanks ^^
 
Ash
Changing the ending of the little mermaid or what have you (that's just the easiest example) doesn't talk over an entire culture and make the stories told by not-them about them into the entirety of their rhetoric for anyone from not-there.
But giant piles of people are going to assume that Moana talks with authority about the people it presents.
 
Changing the ending to The Little Mermaid did not have an appreciable effect on any vulnerable communities. It's a famous short story by a Danish author. The original story is well known and easily accessible and actual Danish voices are commonly heard in media. It also does not make any claims to authentically represent Danish culture.
 
Ash
(and they leaned hard in the marketing in their claims that they listened to and researched the cultures they stole from, and that's extra a problem.)
 
Pasifika voices are rarely heard and easily talked over in popular media, and Moana was specifically and deliberately marketed as representative of Polynesian cultures.
Look up Polynesian dialogues on the "Oceanic Trust" some time, but brace yourself for heated arguments.
 
11:41 AM
True. I was considering the fact that most of the European tales had such ending for the sake of the morale of the story (and it was supposed to be "pedagogic" ) so twisting the ending is twisting the content in itsef. But yeah, since I'm not part of any misrepresented minority, it's hard to actually (and accurately) understand the problem by myself without getting any feedback from someone who actually lives the problem
 
(Basically, Disney paid a handful of Polynesian academics to do superficial culture consultation on the story --mostly aesthetics-- and uses that to justify their use of a vulnerable culture as "authentic" and approved.)
Yeah, I should amplify some Pasifika voices here.
May 18 '17 at 4:06, by BESW
There are some good links to scholarship in this article.
Jan 15 at 2:48, by BESW
Really good reading on the above subject: "Don’t Swallow (or be Swallowed by) Disney’s 'Culturally Authenticated Moana'" by Vicente M. Diaz for Indian Country Today.
 
yeah
it definitely made it worse the way they marketed the movie
 
Ash
@BESW oh wow that's stellar
 
> For too long, Polynesian body image has been stuck between The Rock and a diabetic place.
 
Semi joke: well, when the most iconic display the average european knows of is the All-Black's Haka... Yes
It's not exactly representative
 
11:55 AM
@Nyakouai It's also important to remember that Polynesians are not monolithic. There's a lot of dialogue about the best praxis for engaging with exploitation. It's a conversation that every vulnerable community, especially Indigenous ones, is having, and a lot of the time it's a big argument.
 
Ash
@BESW :that's one of the best bits but the whole thing is just so.....*emphatic handflapping*
 
Dec 28 '15 at 9:13, by BESW
(And yes, it's very easy to get defensive of criticism of the few characters of any given under-represented group who are present in fiction, but stereotypical, demeaning, or otherising depictions of low-profile peoples are arguably about as harmful as a lack of portrayal.)
Dec 28 '15 at 9:16, by BESW
I'm not a member of any such group so it'd be awkward for me to try to speak for them, but if you're interested in such debates I might suggest looking at the lively debates around Native American roles in film which the Lone Ranger film rekindled within that demographic. There are some very eloquent folks taking a variety of stances.
@Nyakouai To address this point more specifically: I think it's really good to adapt and revise old stories, to challenge them, to modify them for new media or new social contexts or new audiences. But some stories aren't just anyone's to do that with--or to do anything at all with. Not everyone can tell every story.
 
@BESW Hmmmf... I'm having a hard time with this statement, as it sounds to me like "Not everyone can joke about anything", and it tends to irks me.
 
I know, it's a difficult concept for a lot of people to wrap their brains around because we've been fed a very narrow paradigm about what "free speech" and "permission" can mean.
 
I get that modifying european lore is most probably a lot less harmful than appropriating Polynesian culture, as one has been vastly more represented than the other, so the impact will be vastly different
And I totally agree than doing so for the purpose of sweet heaps of entertainment money for the shareholders is completely wrong
But it does sound a bit absolute, and I always think you should weight the intent
 
12:05 PM
@Nyakouai the point is that Moana's not just a "modified story", it's a story that doesn't even fit in the polynesian tradition and has western values
 
There are concepts of knowledge, ownership, and curation, that don't fit the American/European notions of intellectual property and permissive speech.
 
@BESW Ok, se there is a basic disagreement here. You obviously see where I come from since I have grown in a western mindset.
What I hear is "You are free to share your pie with me, but you can't have any of mine", which just rubs me the wrong way
(And the matter is way more complicated than that, not contesting your opinion, just stating what I find wrong with the basic premise)
 
If you've been stealing my pie for three hundred years and still actively block my access to fruit filling... yes.
 
also your pie is huge.
 
Do I have been stealing your pie for three hundred years? Am I blocking you from (sorry, do not know the expression, but pretty sure I get the meaning)?
 
12:08 PM
[wins internal bet with self]
 
Yeah, the European pie is huge, but comparatively, we don't get much more from this metaphoric pie.
I get when Disney hoarding the pie and staring hungrily at yours is wrong
 
But more specifically, The Little Mermaid is one guy's story. Māui, and the Long Pause, and wayfinding... these aren't just stories. They're knowledge and faith that are preserved through rituals of telling.
 
you personally may not have been doing it but this is at the level of cultures interacting with each other
 
The way they are told, and who tells them, is as much part of the knowledge as the words themselves.
 
Okay, I think I need to state my opinion in one coherent bit or it won't be really understandable
 
12:10 PM
Disney's Moana is kinda like going into a reference library and cutting all the citations and footnotes out of the books.
And for the record, I am not Pasifika. I live here, but I do not have claim to this knowledge either.
 
What I don't like with the statement "Not everyone can tell every story", is that while it does prevent megacorporations (that, on a side-note, I find basically wrong to reduce to the culture they sprouted from in general) to just reap everything they see even in the neighbours garden...
..., it also seems to say "Hey, this person took a genuine interest in X's culture and wants to learn more, and share their enthousiasm around, but basically, they can not do so because they weren't born from the right ethnicity"
 
Well, I didn't say that and I didn't mean it.
 
I'm not saying the person in the second case shouldn't do so respectfully and without letting their audience know and such
But the statement does ring a bit absolute
(And that's the part I'm having trouble with)
 
An individual can join the systems of authority and responsibility that make oral traditions work, without having ancestral connections to it.
 
disney can't, though.
 
12:15 PM
But not anyone can walk in off the street and immediately act with that authority and responsibility. You gotta do the work.
Disney didn't do the work.
 
Back on "...this is at the level of cultures interacting with each other", Disney is not every westerner, nor even a western culture in itself. You just have to look at the backlash they're getting around China recently, or other related matters
 
If I say "Not everyone can perform surgery" do you feel that's unfair?
 
Okay, your stance was on acting with authority
I'm a bit of a nagger and like things not to be up to interpretations so yeah
Trying to rephrase to get my point across, just a sec
 
There are systems to preserve and pass on knowledge and prevent harm. Because those systems look like "telling stories" to Western eyes, and our ideas about stories are very informal, we tend to ignore or devalue or entirely miss those structures.
But let's take a much more close-to-home example.
 
I totally agree with your second statement
 
12:19 PM
Every now and then on social media, somebody will be part of a cool thing like helping a person in need or seeing a couple being really cute together.
 
You can use the example of anti-vaxxer
 
That's great, and it's totally okay to say on social media "I helped somebody today" or "I saw a really cute couple." But very often they'll post pictures, and provide personal details, about the other people involved.
 
(Am I going to trigger anyone in the chat, or is this an adequate-example that can be discussed here?)
 
Now they're telling somebody else's story that was not theirs to tell.
They were part of the story, but they cannot publicly share everything about it without violating peoples' privacy and putting them at risk.
Not everyone can tell every story even if you participated in it.
Often I'm part of stories that aren't mine to tell. How much moreso when those stories are the property of a people that haven't welcomed me? And how much more than that when the people who do welcome me have been engaged in systematically attempting to destroy those stories for centuries?
One of the most celebrated local artists here is a mainlander who didn't come to Guam until she was an adult. But she's done the work and is welcomed by the Indigenous community and they are happy for her to incorporate their sacred concepts into her work.
I would not feel comfortable using those sacred concepts in my art unless invited to by an Indigenous client because I don't feel like it's my place to say whether I've done the work yet.
 
Now, I totally understand that. I won't nitpick on your example (as the nitpick woudn't be relevant to the main subject and we could write books about all the nuances and scenarios). When I read your first statement, "Not everyone can tell every story" it does sounded like sharing it
From what you say, I (think I) understand you were more referring to "Sharing it and claiming you have authority in the matter"
So I do agree with that
 
12:29 PM
The act of sharing a story is an act of claiming it. Most of the time that's not an issue. But sometimes it is very very important.
 
Yeah, again, not nitpicking every nuance
I could just tell you the scenario of "Little bobby shared the bedtime story he reads to his classmates" and you would comeback with "Disney made a shitton of money by ripping of bit of culture from the Pacific islands people"
Just saying your first statement sounded to me as absolute and a bit over-generalizing, and that's from where the misunderstanding comes from
 
Stories are really important, and the way we tell them and the way we share them should never be taken lightly. I think everybody in this room understands that on some level: we're here because collaborative storytelling is a shared hobby.
 
Doesn't prevent your point to be totally reasonnable and that we're on the same (or close) page once you explain it
 
Ash
@BESW I wish people understood that.
 
On the other hand, one of my friends wept happy tears in Moana because it was the first time she'd ever seen her homeland depicted with care in a big budget film, the taro and pōhaku and the way the kahakai undercuts the grass where the coconut tree holds the soil.
Life is complicated, colonized life trebly so.
 
1:08 PM
then one day, they left us, a game about departure by Diwata ng Manila, is a game that lets you enter the form of discarded furniture in a reclamation center. Written for #SafetyJam.
Taco Baco, a game by soup in which handfuls of Taco Bell sauce are used for the randomization mechanic.
Naptime 2E by Dylan Grinder.
Stewpot: Tales from a Fantasy Tavern is a collection of small games for groups of three or more players. Each game lets you, a retired adventurer, play out different parts of running a tavern and settling down in a town together with your old adventuring party.
 
@doppelgreener @Rubiksmoose Well, that meta went up like a lead balloon.
 
@Someone_Evil Fine. A balloon filled with lead :)
 
hello?
 
@GcL I give up!
@Gwideon howdy!
 
@NautArch Is it bad that I saw this ping and I had no idea which one of like half a dozen chat rooms or even more posts it could have come from?
 
1:39 PM
how is everyone
 
@Rubiksmoose haha, probably
 
@NautArch #NABdrama
 
@Rubiksmoose At this point, I really don't know how to proceed with the issue when the vocal party refuses to participate.
 
GcL
@Rubiksmoose I think you elected to be elected into that position. I blame society!
 
@Someone_Evil Just like the song, 99 lead balloons
 
1:42 PM
@GcL Hah! I mean that is absolutely true :) The drama comes with the diamond broom.
 
GcL
@NautArch Well, what's your goal?
@Rubiksmoose That analogy conjures a rather abrasive image in my mind. Like, "oh no! my beautiful floor?!? what have you done?!"
 
@MikeQ Google tells me that both Undead Apes and Naked & Such have songs with that title.
 
@GcL Hahaha. "Well there was a dab of spaghetti over there so I rubbed sandpaper over the entire floor. Spaghetti is gone though!"
 
@GcL . My goal was for those not wanting to look at subjective answers through the existing lens of support methodology to propose an alternate methodology.
But that alternate methodology appears to be primarily opinion-based currently (and not really voiced.)
"It's backed up because I feel like it is"
 
Yeah, I would agree with your observation that there see some sort of hesitancy to discuss this on Meta which I don't fully understand. I get that people don't want to codify a hard rule around that, but that's not the primary purpose of Meta.
 
1:52 PM
@Rubiksmoose Nor have I been asking for a hard rule. Just that we do have existing description of how to back up and that there is currently pushback on it, but nothing is being added as to what to add to it. Just that it shouldn't have to be followed.
 
GcL
@NautArch An alternate solution. That's a different question. I can't tell you how to bake a great cake, but I can tell you when a cake tastes bad. I do not like challenges along the lines of, "well come up with something better." Especially when the question is, "how does this taste?"
@NautArch I assume most answers are backed by the writers experiences and knowledge.
 
@GcL And I'm not comfortable with assuming that. I can also assume rules answers are supported by rules even when they aren't listed. But that would probably be wrong or at least something we wouldn't want.
If it's no longer about citing support, then we're just a forum that votes on answers by popularity. Which I guess is fine, but that seems different than how I'd seen the stack.
 
Experience shows that explicitly supported answers tend to be better because the support adds useful information.
 
So i'm just wondering what is everyone's opinion on homebrew stuff
 
GcL
@Gwideon If it helps with the stories and increases fun, it is good.
 
1:55 PM
@Gwideon What do you mean?
 
@Gwideon Collectively, for all homebrew, everyone's opinion probably averages to "meh"
 
GcL
Sometimes there are hidden dangers with it though, like stepping on the specializations of other players... and that can decrease fun.
 
@Gwideon I was very cautious about homebrew in my D&D days, but now I use systems where every person at the table is expected to be helping each other make up cool new mechanics, and the system helps make that easy and effective.
 
I like using homebrew magic items to add some story context
or story opoturnities
 
For D&D-style homebrew, I find that it's important to think about it in terms of "What thing that happens at the table do I want to change?"
 
1:57 PM
@Gwideon what system or you talking about?
 
@NautArch I definitely hear that. I think there is some hesitance around the fact that people worry that guidance on Meta will be "weaponized" so to speak. And I can actually see that concern (though I don't think it should prevent us from talking about stuff).
 
GcL
@NautArch What would you estimate the rate of writers that have responded to your prompting by explicitly adding attestation of experience into their answer?
 
basically homebrew in general
 
And the three questions plus one really help, too.
2
 
I have the most experience with dnd but yeah
 
1:58 PM
@GcL I want to say it's fairly good, but I really have no metric. I can say that there have been times where it's been added and I htink the answer has improved because of it and I"ve left a comment thanking.
 
GcL
@NautArch Would you say more often than not?
 
But there have also been times where I"ve asked, it's been ignored (maybe flagged), but people still 'like' the answer and upvote it.
@GcL It often depends, but I think there's generally been a better response from newer users. Older users often just refuse.
and get angry
 
GcL
@NautArch Given that experience, more often than not the writer does have experience to back up the answer even if they didn't put it in the first place. I think that aligns with my assumption that most do have experience and knowledge to back it up.
@NautArch Are you sure that it's anger they're feeling. I know it's not anger I feel when it happens to me.
 
@GcL Sure, but then it's implicitly supported. But that's an equivalent (in my eyes) of stating there's a rule without actually citing it.
@GcL frustration?
poorly received?
 
GcL
@NautArch Maybe. You'd have to ask them.
 
2:03 PM
Either way, my belief was that this wasn't a site that just presented opinions for folks to vote on. That we had a higher standard here. Maybe we don't, and that's okay. But if that's the case, it seems like the previous meta discussions on good subjective support or unnecessary and misleading.
 
Generally you can gauge homebrew by asking these questions:
- What is it trying to achieve?
- How does it try to achieve that?
- What's the cost, in terms of complexity and to the degree it could break other parts of the game?
 
GcL
@NautArch I found it useful. It is a way to make a good answer. It is not the only way to make a good answer.
 
okay can I give an example
 
@Gwideon Go for it :)
 
@GcL So what is a way to make a good subjective answer without doing so? Just presenting the idea and hoping that others understand that you're coming from experience and not just generating an idea?
People like to upvote good ideas regardless of anything else. That doesn't mean it was actually a good answer for the stack (or does it?)
But that does mean we are an idea generation site and the votes help determine what ideas seem good.
 
2:06 PM
@NautArch Answers should be supported by something. Doesn't need to be an anecdote. Logical arguments can suffice.
 
okay so I made a ring called the ring of the sun walker. It had a curse of binding on it meaning it couldn't be removed. it kinda turned the user into a semi vampire. They gained +5 strength and a life stealing bite attack that did 1d4 damage.
 
ANd I think that's okay, it's just not what I thought we required.
@MikeQ Sure! I've never said anecdotal is the only way to support. But most of the time an idea is presented without any support, there also isn't a series of logical arguments to back it up. It's just an idea.
In the consulting world, it's never enough to say "I've got lots of experience, so you should do X". There's always testing to prove it.
 
GcL
@NautArch I cited some of your answers that have been good and useful, but don't cite personal experience in the gsbs way.
 
@NautArch From the reader's perspective, an anecdote is just as good as a hypothetical example. That example needs explanation.
 
@GcL And i've said those answers are totally unsupported. Not even by logic. Yeah, they're fun and useful - but I don't think it's a 'good answer' by our standards as I understand them.
I did not support them with logic or anything else.
But yeah, they're good and fun. But they lie 100% in the realm of idea generation.
 
GcL
2:09 PM
@NautArch Okay. They've been useful and good for me. They read well, are reasonable, and address the question and underlying problem.
 
@Gwideon Life stealing bite attack?
 
@GcL Maybe I was lucky in that I came up with something good. It doesn't change that it was originally an unsupported idea generation.
 
GcL
@NautArch I don't think that is the case. I think that you have a collection of experience and knowledge that you draw upon implicitly. It's better than a random walk.
 
@Gwideon What's the drawback?
 
GcL
@NautArch Doesn't change that it's a good and useful answer to me.
 
2:10 PM
@GcL Right, but we are all experts here by virtue of being here. So no one should ever need to support because of that.
But then we're saying that subjective answers don't need support.
 
@MikeQ They heal whatever amount of damage they deal with it
 
WHich we can say if that's our desire, I just feel that direction is very different than what's covered in meta.
 
@NautArch They have to feed on blood once every week or they'll start getting urges and might lash out
 
GcL
@NautArch I'm saying supporting answers in GSBS fashion is a way to write a good answer. I don't think answers that aren't explicitly supported in that way are unsupported.
 
@Gwideon What sort of urges/lashing out? Is the party okay with feeding on blood? Is society?
@GcL Then how are they supported? It seems like you're saying that we can and should always make the assumption that an idea presented is supported. But then how do you differentiate between idea generation and that? Just whether or not you happen to like the idea?
That seems very opinion-based.
 
2:13 PM
@NautArch the party is mostly okay with it society not so much. they will basically feed on the first person they see.
 
GcL
@Gwideon That's tough to do. Urges and lashing out might be reducing the agency of the player running the character. The player should still choose... are there consequences for not lashing out?
 
Which again, we can be! It's just very different from previous direction.
@Gwideon Why is the party okay with it if society generally isn't?
 
@NautArch The difference is whether there's some explanation of why the presented idea should work
 
GcL
@NautArch I assume that writers are drawing from their knowledge and experiences. How to tell if an answer is as useful as spaghetti on the wall is a different question. One approach might be to identify the hallmarks of spit balling.
 
@Gwideon Just to take back up a bit, what is the goal of giving players this item? What change do you (the DM?) want to achieve with it?
 
2:17 PM
They know the party member and were friends before they received the item. Also I leave the roleplay aspects of the item mostly to the player. also um they become really obvious to any creature with enhanced senses and vampires and will generally be in a dis favorable position if some one notices the physical aspects of her transformation.
 
@MikeQ I definitely didn't explain why things should work in my make combat more cinematically interesting answer :) I just presented a bunch of ideas.
@GcL I spitballed that answer ^
Being eloquent about an idea doesn't make it a supported idea.
 
@MikeQ I wanted to give the player something interesting to roleplay with and they needed a bit of help in combat so yeah
 
GcL
@NautArch That is your perception of it, but that is not mine based on the answer. An experienced lab tech might see themselves as "throwing an answer out there", but more often than not, it's going to save a lot of time and wasted material.
 
@Gwideon What was their race/class? Why does moar strength provide the help you think they needed?
@GcL My perception of it? I wrote it! I may have convinced you otherwise, but it was 100% idea generation.
 
GcL
@NautArch I don't have a problem with that. Yes. Your perception of what you did might not match mine. To you, it might have been easy and come so naturally you don't assign much value to it. On the other hand, I might see it as something that I could only aspire to do.
 
2:20 PM
@Gwideon The thing about vampirism/lycanthropy is that it's very attractive for a player and group. It's a lot of bonuses. But they really do need to be heavily balanced by the roleplay consequences both in party and out. Just because you knew someone was good, doesn't mean you still think they after they do something awful (and continue to do it.)
 
GcL
Just because a person perceives their own performance as trivial does not mean it is seen the same way by all.
 
2
Q: When attacking while hidden, what does it mean to "give away your location"?

jgnThe rules on unseen attackers and targets state: If you are hidden — both unseen and unheard — when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses. Does this mean enemies attacking the hidden creature no longer have disadvantage, as described in the preceding...

 
GcL
On the other hand, a well researches and supported answer of a neophyte might have all the work and good intentions invested in it... and still be a terrible suggestion.
 
@GcL I think that's difference here. Either we advocate for idea generation of good ideas, or we advocate for supporting our ideas. I guess it can be both, but that seems be at odds with what I thought was a goal for clearly supported answers.
 
they were a half elf bard and they needed a more consistent source of healing (as the cleric was sometimes a bit of a jerk) and she needed some help with hitting her melee weapon attacks and with damage in general
 
2:21 PM
@NautArch It's really the sparkles that are so attracting TBH.
 
@NautArch Let me go tell the angry mob who burns unsupported answers at the stake
 
@MikeQ Here!
My god, I'm the monster!
 
@NautArch yeah that's why I didn't go full vampire for this. basically she became a half vampire. a blade type thing
 
@NautArch Clearly you are a nautical arachnid right?
 
@Gwideon My 8 eyes turn to you.
 
GcL
2:22 PM
@NautArch I'd keep GSBS around as a guide for writing good answers. There are obviously other ways of getting good answers and I would find it interesting to see more guides on some of those other ways. Or maybe just identifying the hallmarks of other good answers.
My current favorite is prime dice's "I've been playing for X years, and I wouldn't try this"
 
it's probably dumb
 
@Gwideon I mean, it's your table and if everyone is happy, then it works. But +5 STR is HUGE. Recovering HP on attacks is HUGE. Those are big benefits without any downside. It's definitely a Legendary level item.
 
@GcL FWIW, GSBS as a principle is not in danger of going away. It is that core concept that allows us to exist as an SE site. And it's a site-wide principle, not even something we could rightly ignore if we wanted.
How that principle is interpreted and applied, of course, is more than fair game.
 
Yeah I know. I probably did make the power level of my power as a whole pretty dang high.
 
@GcL Identifying the hallmarks of other good answers is exactly what I'm asking about. If the current GSBS principles aren't always applicable, it would be very helpful to our community to understand the other options. But that's what is being refused.
@Rubiksmoose Can you clarify if those are guidelines, policy, or something else?
Because I think that determination matters in this context.
 
GcL
2:25 PM
@NautArch What's being refused?
 
@GcL To elaborate on the other ways of determining support (or what are hallmarks of good subjective answers.)
Each time I've asked on Meta, i've either gotten answers pointing to the existing GSBS or someone that's said "stop asking"
 
GcL
@NautArch I think that's a separate issue and takes a lot of work and thought.
Creating tractable and useful guides for how to do things well is though.
 
I can't find a question on this, but I want to ask here first.

Does a character know if they've attacked an invisible (hidden) creature, but missed?

and by the inverse property, do they know when they've attacked air?

I can explain further if needed
 
@GcL Well, isn't that what meta is for? Providing a place for that?
@goodguy5 In this case, is the invisible creature hidden?
@Gwideon What level are they?
 
@NautArch sure
 
2:29 PM
@goodguy5 So in this case, the PC has 'guessed' a location and is attempting to attack that spot?
 
@NautArch yes
 
So they attack at disadvantage and miss, right?
 
GcL
@NautArch I don't make assumptions about what meta is actually for. I think if you're asking the question, "what are some ways aside from GSBS that create good answers?" is a tall order.
I think it's a good question to ask though.
 
As far as they know, they have no reason to believe there is or isn't something there just because they missed.
@GcL I have. It was marked as a duplicate of the GSBS.
 
yep
Fighter McFighterson is pretty sure that the invisible creature is in location X, walks up and attacks. but misses.
 
2:30 PM
@goodguy5 If this is 5e, I'd point to the thing about the DM describing the environment and the outcome of player actions
 
@NautArch they were level 5 when I left off
 
GcL
@NautArch That's entertaining to me in a dark way.
 
@Gwideon yowza. Yeah, I think a bit of a retcon isn't a bad idea :) I mean, level 5 characters are often just getting plate armor for the first time.
 
@MikeQ I mean, let's say it's an active combat, the thing is just hiddinvisible
 
@goodguy5 Yeah, the Player took a guess and didn't connect. THe creature is still hidden, so they don't know it's location.
 
2:32 PM
@Gwideon It's a powerful item. If you want that, ok. Party level aside, there are questions of how the item can be exploited, and how it can backfire (on the game)
 
@GcL It was frustrating to me, but it also seemed to end the discussion with a clear indication of what our citation expectations are.
 
true. I'm having everyone start off at level 8 when we next pick up as I'm planning on running rise of tiamat
also the player isn't really one to exploit stuff
 
@NautArch hrm.... I don't know how I feel about that.
 
GcL
@goodguy5 I run those situations as the character doesn't know if they attacked the wrong spot or just missed. Do it on the other side too... have NPCs with the same problems when the players are invisible or hidden.
 
@goodguy5 it also depends on what you interpret AC as in this specific case
 
2:33 PM
@Gwideon It's also a great storytelling item. I would strongly recommend utilizing more in RP opportunities where it puts the party at a disadvantage (or even foments distrust amongst the party)
 
AC is supposed to be both dodginess and armour
 
@Gwideon Players may not realize when they're exploiting something or using it in a way you didn't intend
 
@PierreCathé exactly my thinking
 
if the hit bounced on invisible armour, then you know it
 
that is true
 
GcL
2:33 PM
@NautArch I commiserate with the frustration.
 
@PierreCathé @goodguy5 Very true, but in this case with the creature actively hidden, the description of the weapon/spell not impacting makes more sense. THere's a lot of power in being hiddinvisible.
@GcL And honestly, it made me take a harder stance that I normally would have.
Because that seemed to be what the community and moderators at the time were directing.
 
@NautArch My personal thought is that GSBS is policy if I had to put a label on it (and I'm not entirely sure it is helpful to do so), and that GSBS would encourage us to back up subjective posts. I think a lot of the disagreement here is what degree of explicitness/type of support counts to satisfy that.
 
@NautArch that's already mechanically covered by disadvantage
 
@goodguy5 Then it's up to you. If you want to indicate that attacking the unseen creature is a good idea, then you could describe that maybe they hear something shuffling around and dodging in that space. Other DM styles may simply say that the fighter observes nothing. Both approaches are valid.
 
@Rubiksmoose Well, it seems like there is a vocal group that doesn't believe you need to explicitly support subjective answers. That thes upport is implicit from experience.
 
2:35 PM
note to self, though. by a sack of flower on all my characters
 
Yeah I'd say it's up to the dm and depends on th esituation
 
@NautArch Yeah that is certainly one of the things I've taken away from Meta so far as well.
 
@goodguy5 This is also why AOE attacks are good against invisibility. Onthe other hand, you do kinda want to help a character who guessed right from all the possible locations :)
 
GcL
@NautArch I think explicit attestation it is sufficient for a good answer, but is not necessary.
 
@GcL And my understanding was that every answer on stack needs explicit support.
 

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