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12:12 AM
@MikeQ On reflection, I think this question ties together the easier-to-parse "is it accurate" subject with the more-practically-important topic of how Disney positions Pasifika people in the real world, and both can be addressed by asking "Who wrote Moana?"
Apr 27 '18 at 1:54, by BESW
A few days ago Hank Azaria (in a spectacular turn-around that I do respect) said regarding what to do with Apu that "listening to [Asian-American] voices means inclusion in the writer's room."
12:57 AM
hey there @RyanfaeScotland
1:14 AM
Hey @Shalvenay, how goes?
@RyanfaeScotland alright here, how about you?
how's your 5e campaign going?
Can't complain and good, meeting up again this Friday to hopefully take on whatever awakes us in Shadespear Castle :)
(If we can decide what to do with all the loot we just found but can't carry)
You got any gaming going at the mo?
@RyanfaeScotland getting my first taste of Eberron as a campaign setting
Ooo interesting
I'm afraid you've caught me just at bedtime so shall have to say goodnight
Goodnight. :)
1 hour later…
2:48 AM
Really good reading on the above subject: "Don’t Swallow (or be Swallowed by) Disney’s 'Culturally Authenticated Moana'" by Vicente M. Diaz for Indian Country Today.
(Diaz is a Filipino-Pohnpeian scholar from Guam.)
3:25 AM
@nitsua60 If nothing else, it's a good excuse to hang out with a bunch of friends.
hey there @JoelHarmon
hey there @Shalvenay
@JoelHarmon how're things going?
Not too shabby.
I get my life back now that Advent of Code and the Christmas season are over. Finally managed to read some of the books I got.
@JoelHarmon OK here. have ideas in mind for a DW game I want to run but need someone to bounce them off of because what I have so far is basically a giant furball of campaign fronts
3:37 AM
Yeah, you've mentioned that.
I should have a bit of time now if you're still looking (though I haven't finished catching up on chat for the day)
@JoelHarmon yeah, just need someone to thaw out my spoil-lair real fast....
I'll need a link for that.
449 is a lot of days.
@JoelHarmon yes, I haven't needed it in a while :P
4:17 AM
@goodguy5 Emerald Enclave might fit the bill?
hey there @nitsua60, mind unfreezing my spoil-lair?
@Shalvenay aaaaaaaaasss youuuuuuu wiiiiiiiiish
@nitsua60 thanks :)
@Shalvenay np.
2 hours later…
6:35 AM
A quote from tonight's session: "We summoned a dragon! We gave it a summons, and it showed up to the trial!"
Vic (me) was the party's defense attorney, and made a pretty good argument in our defense... Until we realized the questionable NPC that showed up in town accusing a group that seemed to resemble an earlier version of our party was probably a shapechanged dragon (specifically the mate of another one). Vic conferred with the judge and rolled a 22 on Persuasion - even though the roll on the die was a 2 (thanks to expertise and bardic inspiration) - to convince him to put the NPC on the
3 hours later…
9:44 AM
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Blacklisted website in body, pattern-matching product name in body, pattern-matching website in body, potentially bad keyword in body (296): Three. Keep an affordable food plan by nbghnyt on rpg.SE (@doppelgreener)
10:33 AM
Can we just close every "can kenku communicate using ___?" question as duplicates of this answer already? Or of the even better comment on it?
"We wanted to spare you the trouble of coming up with weird gimmicks for your characters!"
I can come up with unplayable character concepts just fine, thanks.
11:02 AM
I have lots of unfavorites
Mute or otherwise seriously communication-impaired characters are among them (that said, I'd be fine with muteness if it was more about exploring a life without speech than just a gimmick)
yeah, disability as character gimmick is... not great for a LOT of reasons.
I once played a mute character but she just had a familiar who did all the talking instead
in my defence, I was 13
11:31 AM
I think our party has a bit of potential for exploring issues like that in depth, but it's hampered by us playing systems that don't really support that.
That's an issue, for sure.
11:50 AM
Deadlands: Reloaded was a particularly silly phase. It's one of those systems where you take disabilities and hindrances for character building points.
Almost everyone in our party was Illiterate.
D&D 3.5 had that as an optional thing too.
...and of course there's deadEarth.
There's always deadEarth.
deadEarth will remain even once the earth is dead.
oh yeah deadEarth
best rpg ever
@BESW Sillier in that you could take Illiterate for a free feat, then buy literacy at the cost of 2 skill points.
12:18 PM
I am not a fan of the SW char generation in any way
Savage Worlds I mean
There's lots of character options that seriously muck with your character's state: they might be terminally ill or be wanted for crimes. Or they might be enlisted in an army, for all the perks and responsibilities that entails. Not a hint of guidance on how to mix them with playing as a group.
> "Can't adventure, I've got latrine duty."
And the order of skill picks matter, resulting in pointless minmaxing
And all skills come from the same pool, including some that are REALLY important to even have agency in combat.
You're making it sound more and more like deadEarth.
@kviiri Whats wrong with being able to create a combat-incapable character?
And I'm not sure which skills you mean tbh
@Szega Playing one is boring in combat, which is what the system is based around.
12:32 PM
@kviiri SW is much less based on combat than D&D
@Szega I beg to differ.
It's so unabashedly a miniature wargame that it even measures stuff in inches, not real world units.
@kviiri Depends on how you play too, but SW gives you the option I believe
Again, which skills did you mean?
@Szega But that's a statement that doesn't really mean anything, does it? Any game gives you the option to play it any way you like with generous application of rule zero.
@kviiri Not really. If you strip D&D of combat, practically nothing remains.
@Szega All of them? Shooting, Fighting, Driving, whatever there were.
12:35 PM
@kviiri Then you just said that you need skills to do stuff. Which is obvious.
@Szega I don't really disagree with that, although usually when I say that, someone does. But is that really different from SW?
@Szega I don't get your point.
@kviiri Well, SW at least has non-combat edges. The ratio of non-combat abilities is higher than dnd (5e at least)
Technically if we strip D&D of combat we wind up with a skill system, but very little to do with it because all of the core of the system that the skills were attached to has vanished. I'm bringing this up because if it's being pointed out that SW still has things left over after you strip out combat, the same is still true of D&D, so this alone doesn't mean it's not about combat.
@kviiri You said that there are must-have skills to be able to participate in combat, then did not narrow the skill list at all
@Szega Ah, I thought you were referring to my earlier statement about all skills coming from the same pool.
12:38 PM
I also have, I think, prestidigitation left over.
But in that case, the main skill tax is Spirit, because without it, you'll be Shaken forever.
@doppelgreener LOL. case in point
@kviiri How about not getting hit? Also, you can spend a Benny to drop Shaken automatically.
@kviiri What skill is it to be stirred?
@Szega "Not getting hit" is reliant on the dice and multitude of other skills. There are multiple ways to get Shaken, you can't really build your character against all of them.
I would gladly switch Spirit and Fight for lets say, Knowledge(explosives) and Stealth
12:41 PM
I have done some reading about deadEarth
it sounds great
And while I think Bennies aren't a bad game design element in themselves, their practical use as "you need to spend these points or roll real lucky in combat to even get to try to act!" is incredibly unfun design.
Esp. in the edition we played where you'd get experience rewards for not spending bennies.
@kviiri That sounds ... awful
Yeah. I'm glad they fixed that and the Shaken stunlock thing
Before the Shaken revision, you actually needed to Raise your Spirit check to get to act. Otherwise, you'd just be un-Shaken but only get to act on your next turn.
And esp. with wound penalties, it would be very hard for characters who hadn't invested specifically in Spirit.
@Carcer It is extremely, extremely terrible. The character creation is great, assuming you're willing to skip the 600d6 phase (which you may be required to re-do) and assuming you're braced for all content you get presented with to be extremely, extremely terrible and have extremely, extremely terrible outcomes. Then it can be kind of amazing in its extreme terribleness.
I do not recommend direct exposure to actually playing it.
12:58 PM
Yeah, deadEarth somehow manages to be awful in many, many ways
The character generation is laborous, has no guarantee of producing anything playable, and includes gratuitous bigoted humor...
deadEarth: Offensively terrible and terribly offensive.
In point of fact, you're going to be very lucky if one of your three characters is even a little bit playable.
It is quite likely your characters will all be dead, crippled, bedridden, or have one of the perks that makes them likely to die and/or kill themselves within a few minutes or days of game start.
In all the deadearth chargenning we did here for fun I think I recall two semi-viable characters and one supermutant who somehow lucked out into being not only alive and well and unhandicapped, but also into being incredibly powerful.
granted merely being alive and adventure-worthy is a superpower as far as character creation goes.
@kviiri What's the revised rule? I heard of a normal success allowing you to act at -2. Is that it?
1:15 PM
yeah, I found the blog posts from whatshisface running through chargen a few times
which I am aware is a very low bar to clear.
@doppelgreener want to try Robinson Requiem ? At least you start alive there. Usually it doesn't last long though...
A bar so low it is underground.
even with the little time I spend here...
@Derpy i have nethack at least :)
@doppelgreener What a coincidence! Being alive is my IRL superpower. Adventure-worthy not so much.
1:20 PM
NEO Scavenger is a fun vidya if you like survival rogue-ish
@doppelgreener "so realistic we even implemented gangrene for added fun!"
I would say that this sounds like you could do the MST3K version of RPGs and play through some for funsies (without me knowing anything about these) but then I got to "grotesquely bigoted" so I'll pass thankyouverymuch.
@Szega At least the one I heard just lets you act normally on a normal success.
(So a raise does nothing extra)
It may have changed again
@kviiri I may have heard a homebrew.
But this way Shaken only really does anything if fire is focused on someone, no?
@doppelgreener out of wonder (and please forgive me for what I am about to do)... did you ever read anything about a game called "The You Testament"?
1:26 PM
@Derpy i have not
If they accept videogame based rpg too in that wiki, they may want to add it to said list.
@nitsua60 maaaaaybe. I wanted something more zealous
@kviiri hmm, nvm my previous question. This seems sensible.
@Derpy This is a tabletop RPG wiki.
All of those are tabletop RPGs and all of them are awful.
@doppelgreener assumed so, but what I meant is that that thing is at the level of some of that list entries.
1:31 PM
oh, i see!
there are actually quite a lot of horrible, awful, bigoted video games given it's a lot more popular to make video games than tabletop games. (and requires a lot less cooperation from other people.)
the recently elected political leader of brazil infamously had a video game about him in which you beat up all of the country's persecuted minorities.
that is fan made. The problem is that based on every report in existence, the author didn't intend it as a (very bad) joke.
@doppelgreener sadly, there is also a "city simulation" game - think sim city - that has you managing a lager camp . Not joking, it was made by some extremist German party.
"lager camp" is probably an unfamiliar term to most people, but I'm guessing from context and a quick google it's referring to concentration camps
@Derpy (cc: @carcer @doppelgreener) I don't know that there's any standing agreement not to talk about them, but I don't see a harm in keeping them at arm's length. So I moved the thread, hope you don't mind.
@nitsua60 [shrug]
oh, not at all, but I think you moved it to the wrong room.
are you sure you didn't mean to move that here?


A place for trash messages from other chatrooms. If you're a r...
(again, a joke, no need to move those messages to the trash, but to be fair it may be good to know that there is a designed "move trash here" room if you ever need it in the future.)
1:45 PM
No, I don't think it was trashworthy, just wanted to move it a bit further from general consumption.
General Consumption sounds like a radiation manipulation you might get in deadEarth
On a lighter note, it sounds like the new DM of the group is going to be running a campaign loosely inspired by Pratchett's Discworld in both tone and some setting stuff.
Which is a very nice change from the dark, dramatic, and gritty campaign that we killed a couple weeks ago.
Discworld can be dark, dramatic and gritty, eh
Night Watch is grim
You think?
Some are certainly more serious than others, but not sure I would call any grim. Could just be my memory though.
Regardless I think the aim is to replicate the tone of the lighter books a bit.
that's fair enough
1:51 PM
I'm not sure how it will work, but I'm ready to try it for sure.
certainly the Vimes books tended to be more serious and a bit grimmer than the rest - I think pterry was just quite good at mixing that with humour still
Night Watch in particular, though. I think I'm mostly remembering the bit where they stormed the cable street irregulars.
Can you dual wield magic stones?
is a magic stone a light melee weapon?
Depends on the definition of "dual wield" -- you can hold and use two of anything in DnD as long as it doesn't require two hands to use. But you can only use Two Weapon Fighting if they're light melee weapons
But you can dual wield for other purposes too, eg. to have two different types of damage handy.
@Rubiksmoose Sounds like fun. And since Discworld cosmologically is just making fun of fantasy tropes including D&D's own, it might work out okay as the system.
2:00 PM
(Dual wielding isn't really a mechanic in DnD 5e --- it's just the act of holding two things, and doesn't really have any general, particular rules associated with it)
@kviiri that's deliberately disingenuous - there are clearly rules for fighting effectively using two weapons at the same time, which is what people mean when they describe dual-wielding
@nitsua60 Ok with me. 👍
@Carcer There are rules for Two Weapon Fighting, but it's not the only reason one would dual wield.
that's just pedantic
And it's not even the only way to attack with two different held weapons as a part of the same action
@Carcer Maybe --- but given the confusing language the WotC uses to refer to these mechanics, I'll opt for pedantry anytime.
2:05 PM
okay, that's true. Extra attack muddies yer waters
I did actually even play in a table where the rogue used their extra attack like that constantly, just for RP purposes
[releases multiweapon fighting, an entirely different subsystem that covers fighting with 2+ weapons]
@doppelgreener Yeah, I'm a bit disappointed that he decided to go with 5e over another system in general, but it probably is an ok choice given the fantasy nature.
When it was my turn to master, I gave them a poison dagger that gave them some mecahnical backing for that
On the other hand, I'm having a hard time coming up with a character concept. In part because I think I might just be really tired of the fantasy genre.
@Carcer Yeah I can definitely see where you are coming from there.
2:23 PM
@kviiri I was being unclear for the sake of brevity.
@Rubiksmoose Then don't follow that genre. With work with your GM ,you can certainly incorporate a different genre into your character
Do Magic Stones count as light weapons?
@goodguy5 no
perfect. ty
Magic Stones aren't even weapons. THey are rocks that are enchanted to grant you the ability to use your action to deal damage.
2:25 PM
is it really your action? I thought it was an attack
@goodguy5 yes, but as of yet there is no way to make a generic ranged spell attack without the Attack action.
@DavidCoffron wait, what? let me just read the spell text
got it.
So, a fighter can hurl as many as he has attacks and stones available
@DavidCoffron the way you said "enchanted to grant you the ability to use your action to deal damage." made it seem like it didn't combine with extra attack
A thread on the history of books and libraries and how much it took to have either:
"I've never seen so many books before in my whole life!": a thread about book production and premodern libraries in fantasy Pet peeve: characters wandering into an endless library without further worldbuilding
@DavidCoffron I mean I guess, but if everyone else want to play high fantasy and I'm playing Sherlock holmes or Wyatt Earp then I'm not really playing the same setting as people. Doable: sure. But I'm not sure I want to go there.
Even then I'm not sure that solves my issue. My lack of enthusiasm for character choices is just one aspect of it. Really, I'm tired of all the tropes and trappings of fantasy right now.
@doppelgreener "magic"
2:32 PM
(In context this isn't solely about high fantasy stories)
fair enough
honestly, I misread her username as janette_rpg, and then viewed it through that lense
oh lol
@goodguy5 ah. My bad. Fighter would be better equipped to use them
no worries ^_^
I'm trying to think if there's a way to game magic stones with warlock
take magic stone and three tiny hirelings
each round, bonus action magic stone, drop the pebbles, eldritch blast something. Your hirelings each pick up a pebble and throw it at an enemy using your spell attack stats.
there's an extra 3d6+15 damage per round, possibly.
2:47 PM
@goodguy5 multiclass rogue and get a sling for sneak attack ;)
I find magic stone to be most useful with a noncombat ally (either an NPC or a PC with poor rolled stats)
@Carcer per one round, wherein the minions are killed
that's still not bad for an opener!
Why isn't magic stone a cleric spell per David and Goliath. Hmm...
Bacause David was a Warlock
Strange mission from an otherworldly power? hrm?
2:49 PM
hm hm hm
[grumbles momentarily about half the warlock stuff not being in the free bit of dndbeyond]
Or maybe he was just a bard (he was a poet and a musician) with magic stone as a magical secret
3:12 PM
@Carcer yes, too bad one's sprite familiar can't be one of them.
3:31 PM
@Carcer That's interesting. Potentially expensive it terms of both gold and exp
4:00 PM
@DavidCoffron your mage hand+magic stone (correct, IIRC) could benefit, I think, from quoting the clause in mage hand that specifically prohibits making attacks. (Which, IIRC again, is a thing?)
I wish there was a purchase option for both the physical book and electronic access to the material at the same time. I really do hate paying 2x for the same content.
Personally, I think you should get a free pdf when you get a physical book
aside from the fact that pdfs should be cheap
Free PDF on book purchase, or digital distribution as a norm, would be great
We play around such a small table that physical books are rather bulky to have around. PDF copies and DnDBeyond are real timesavers.
4:15 PM
@kviiri I'd accept something like a $5 surcharge when purchasing the book to get a dndbeyond unique code to register like a game key with my account.
@ColinGross oh easily, i'd probably go even higher
@goodguy5 Publishers don't like doing that. My impression is that they think it cuts into their sales.
@SirCinnamon 150% of the book price alone?
So 40 for the book alone or 60 for book + dndbeyond code?
@ColinGross thats probably pushing it
I'd market it the other way around, 40$ to get DnDBeyond and 60$ to get the code with a physical book
Maybe because I'm used to perusing my DnD from a digital medium, I think the physical books feel more like swag and luxury to me than the actual format of the game anymore :)
@ColinGross Actually the reason that Curse charges what they do is because, partly, they argue you are not buying the books itself but an entirely different form of hte same material with added functionality and features.
4:19 PM
I still primarily use physical books at the table
I've changed what I wish my mundane super power was.
If i could pay for JUST a searchable spell list i would
@kviiri I'm pretty similar
@kviiri I like digital for D&D because the digital tools are pretty nice. For other RPGs I dig the books.
I wish that I could get things done by being at the place where they get done. like a loading bar.
4:20 PM
@Rubiksmoose By digital tools, do you mean DnD Beyond or...?
I've always had the issue of being able to "buckle down" on work stuff. even in middle school. If I could just sit at the desk and eventually wthe work would get done....
@nitsua60 ah. Very good point
@SirCinnamon You technically can actually on D&DBeyond though not with like one click.
@kviiri Yeah DnDB. It's good. Not perfect, but good.
@Rubiksmoose I agree, it beats browsing pdfs on mobile. Unless one remembers which book and which page, which I often do (:
@Rubiksmoose You need certain books for full content though right?
4:22 PM
@goodguy5 Yeah, but then any idiot could do stuff.
@SirCinnamon Since you can buy things piecemeal you can actually simply go into each book and purchase only the spells from them
No need to buy the entire book.
hmm maybe worth doing then. Theres a monthly fee to share that with my group right?
There is yeah. I'm not sure how much that is. Or for that matter how much only buying the spells would be. But it will be cheaper than buying the full books and they even subtract the amount you pay from the price of the book if you want to buy it later.
Which is honestly pretty nice.
@ColinGross that's why it'd be a super power
I'm so damned distractable
i.e. this
@ColinGross That's not actually a downside.
4:27 PM
@goodguy5 I'm with you. That sounds like a great power.
@goodguy5 The power of pawns.
Especially if it works for preparing dinner and cleaning.
and you could require the ability to do the thing, in order for it to work.
if someone doesn't understand what numbers are, then you get a little red box when you put them in the statistics workspace
@Rubiksmoose Then you hack your home into having your desk, kitchen, and anything else you want to get done all in/near the same place so you get credit for all of them while you play on your phone.
@GreySage Now that's living the good life.
4:29 PM
And you sit on your bed, so you get progress towards a good nights sleep too (i'd take just that as a super power, honestly).
sleep is such a waste of time
@goodguy5 You're doing it wrong. Get a cat. They'll show you how to do it right.
That is probably the meme I relate most to in my life
Sleeping, eating, socializing, all these biological processes getting in the way of living my life.
this is not a meme
this is a comic
4:32 PM
comics can be memes
and I've seen the comic with the speech stripped out and changed. meme'd, one might say
@goodguy5 Thus the comic became a meme.
@goodguy5 videogame producers should focus on a way to have "play while you sleep" lucid dream based games.
that'd be dope, tho
@ColinGross cat are multidimensional entities. What your punny human senses perceive as "sleeping" is actually them being active on alternate planes of reality.
@Derpy that sounds lovely in principle but from there it's an extremely brief hop to dream-based subliminal advertising
do not want
4:37 PM
@ColinGross when a cat seems to be sleeping and immobile, it is simply moving on dimensions your primitive nature does not yet grasp
we're not even sure that subliminal advertising works
the only published study on it was deemed biased and thrown out.
@Carcer oh, to be fair I am not sure that games could be better of the weird dreams I have right now.
Must have some very odd form of madness
even dream-based superliminal advertising would be horrible
c.f lightspeed briefs
Dreams places and event are often self consistent between multiple dreams, very odd indeed
@Carcer Hey, no one's forcing you to buy brand-name merchandise at low low prices.
4:40 PM
I wish I could control my dreams more
Every time I want to try lucid dreaming, I just fall asleep. </s>
4:52 PM
I wonder how Gelatinous Cubes maintain their shape. Like, if a giant were to pick one up and smash it on the ground, would it splat into a pancake? And would it then turn back into a cube with well defined corners?
surely somewhere in some D&D publication there's been a whole family of gelatinous shapes
@GreySage I always imagined the cubical shape comes from squeezing through tunnels with a rectangular cross-section
the gelatinous tube
gelatinous prism
gelatinous oblate spheroid
Gelatinous hypercube
damn it rubiks
4:56 PM
In which case the cube left in the open, or deformed while in the open, would probably eventually start spreading on the sides and form a more classical jelly shape
I was about to say that and I was just checking that hypercube was the right word and I wasn't remembering something else
That's only my headcanon though (except I think it's outright stated somewhere that the cubical nature is an adaptation to corridors) so use with caution or not at all :)
the wording is important
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword with email in answer, email in answer, messaging number in answer, pattern-matching email in answer (348): Do wizards really have to prepare spells multiple times to cast them multiple times? by Michelle Mc on rpg.SE (@doppelgreener)
"an adaptation to corridors" could just as well mean that gelatinous cubes evolved a cubular shape over time and it is the natural shape of the present species, not that an individual gelatinous shape has been contoured by its environment
5:00 PM
@Carcer :D
@Carcer Certainly true
@Carcer next up: gelatinous triangular prism
urge to design a dungeon based entirely on gelatinous shapes of varying kinds with an intelligent gelatinous hypercube as boss is reaching critical levels
I always forget, which one is a hypercube?
is that the one that folds in on itself?
a hypercube is the extension of a cube into more than three dimensions
5:06 PM
no, that's a tesseract
a tesseract is a hypercube!
specifically, the 4-dimensional hypercube
1. that gives me a 404
2. you wouldn't be able to properly understand an image of a hypercube, so it's funny
if I have a 4inch cube that only exists for 4 minutes, is that hypercube?
5:10 PM
@goodguy5 So close...
though a 4-inch cube that only exists for 4 minutes sounds an awful lot like Sam Riegel was involved somehow
what is the minute-inch conversion?
I guess that's what I need to know.
@Carcer Try saying "gelatinous pentagonal trapezohedron" 10 times fast
@MikeQ I have trouble getting through it once slowly lol
"the gelatinous icosahedron rolls toward you!" [throws d20 at the table]
"this thing isn't solid and its feelings about you are not platonic at all"
5:21 PM
@ColinGross Maybe your publisher doesn't. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bits_and_Mortar
@Carcer Oh man, I'm getting ideas now. My kids have giant foamy d6s, I'm imagining using them for a Gelatinous Cube boss that moves by rolling onto one of it's sides. The number of the side facing its target determines what kind of attack it uses.
(Caution: this may just be part of Fred Hicks' dastardly scheme to increase sales through the forbidden arts of Good Customer Service.)
5:44 PM
Sigh... got caught up in an argument with some new site user...
I was supposed to get stuff done today and here I am trying to explain my views to someone who has a fundamentally different view on reality it seems
@kviiri here?
@goodguy5 In one of my recent answers' comments
found it and reading
@kviiri how bizarre. that users SO.SE answers and comments are in similar keeping.
6:06 PM
I'm not sure if I really disagreed with their opinion or I just didn't understand it
But overall, people who equate fairness with direct democracy despite group size and without further qualifiers are... likely to have some opinions that differ from mine in general.
i think theres some miscommunication in there
He's saying "Well if it makes you uncomfortable you can leave etc. etc."
but thats essentially just skipping the step where you say "We aren't doing that, either stop or the game is done"
which is the exact same as the DM veto
In practice, a bit more passive aggressive
haha yes usually
because its not always so black and white. Often you dont even know where you draw a line until somebody crosses it
I don't really see the advantage of that though. I mean, most of the times either me or another has invoked "the X", it's been in response to so some facetious suggestion that no one really felt strongly in favor of in the first place.
and even then only sometimes
6:09 PM
Another reason why I don't really like the idea of "democracy" being used to determine if a table allows something: "uh why not" is all too often counted as a vote for.
it's a game where 1 player guides multiple through a world - why would democracy ever work? the multiple players will say "well why not (thing that strictly benefits us)" every time
@SirCinnamon Yeah, that's true
they aren't unbiased
@SirCinnamon haha, good point!
Then again, the whole game should always be about benefiting the players --- which might include things that don't benefit their characters.
After all, it's entertainment.
Yes - exactly. Theres a reason you don't start at level 20, theres satisfaction in earning it
in taking risks and playing out the consequences good and bad
the best kind of players relish those moments, the "it's risky but its what my character would do because all they care about is this" moments
6:20 PM
@SirCinnamon Heh, for me, there's another reason --- I've never really fancied the idea of playing at that high power scales :)
@kviiri Certainly I would want to end it pretty rapidly if the party reached that
I think most don't, in particular --- I mean, before learning too much about DnD, people tend to assume it's something Tolkienish or similar conventional high fantasy which DnD simulates better at lower levels
I think it's "peak dnd" at like 6 to 12? 15? I cant say i've ever gone higher than 11 i think but those power levels feel right to me
you dont have to face gods or planets, but you can take on vampires and archmages, etc.
e6 picked, well, level six :) I don't have any experience after level 9 (where CoS ends)
(technically it ends at level 10, but since it ended at level-up...)
I don't recall what level we reached in 4e, but not very high. Then again, 4e levels don't compare too well with other editions
yeah 4e was different. I dont think we got past 10...
but i dont really remember
6:30 PM
We were so very new when we were playing 4e
I'd really like to take another shot at it, with more experienced people
And eg. milestone leveling, because it felt we were progressing soooo sloowwww
I think I agree that 6-12 is what people imagine when they imagine D&D

also getting ganked by goblins at level 1
I remember being very frustrated at 4e starting characters being so beefy... I wanted a "zero to hero" story
@kviiri milestone leveling doesn't make it faster by virtue. It just makes it harder for the DM to forget that they're supposed to be supporting your level up.
@goodguy5 Fair point :)
I think my party is progressing at a decent pace, but I keep an xp tally for non combat things
6:32 PM
Milestone leveling as we've used it does make it faster, usually... we usually decide levels on some mixture of "do you guys want to level up?" and "do you guys feel like you've deserved a level?" --- I usually ask these between quests.
oooh. interesting
I like "Do you feel you deserve a level?"
It works quite well! We had one minor disagreement regarding it once --- and even that remained a polite one, not a proper row --- but usually people agree on that remarkably well.
But yeah, I like it :)
Similar systems are used in some other games too, eg. I think Dungeon World asks the players after a session questions like "Did you fight a dangerous foe?" and "Did you discover valuable treasure?"
But I think we like the idea of xp
@goodguy5 I can kinda understand. There's something satisfying about numbers accumulating
I convinced my players to switch to group xp, wherein it's just one total that is the party level
which means there's no more "wait, uh. how do they have 6254 when I only have 6039?"
6:54 PM
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword with a link in answer (78): Is there an item or spell to see through the Disguise Self spell? by Julie Lemen on rpg.SE (@doppelgreener)
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