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6:00 PM
yeah
simple answer though
 
I'm not 100% sure I agree, but I trust your judgement
 
well by policy it should have a system tag, he's right that different games have different assumptions about this kind of thing
but it's almost certainly D&D
 
I mean, dollars to doughnuts it's 5e, specifically
 
so the answer is almost certainly "tell your DM that the way they asked you to play the character has caused an out-of-character problem that you're not happy about and they should back you up when you discuss it with the group"
 
@Carcer Well not exactly. Not every question needs a system tag. Just the questions for which it is important information (which honestly IMO is almost all of them, but that is another matter entirely).
 
6:01 PM
@goodguy5 The answer is obvious if we're talking about D&D, but for other games, it may be less obvious. Some games put a high premium on players acting out their characters irrespective of how it affects group cohesion. "My Guy Syndrome" doesn't really exist in some games.
 
fair enough
 
@Xirema And some games thrive on inter-party conflict I'm sure.
 
spoiling the surprise by having the DM say that "there's a reason the character is acting this way, don't hate on the player" is better than having the players actually upset with each other
 
surprise forced character actions is one of those things that sounds really compelling on paper, but doesn't work in play, imo
like, if it were an actual story, with an author and everything, you might read that and be all "oh no! billy has been mind controlled and his friends don't know!"

But at the table it's all "man, Jake is a dick"
 
it can go very well
but it's not going to work in all groups
this is clearly a group where it isn't
 
6:05 PM
@goodguy5 "Yeah, and why's he going by 'Billy' now?"
 
@goodguy5 I had this exact same situation in a Star Wars RPG where I got possessed. Started doing evil things and using dark side powers and tried to make it really obvious, but still people got grumpy with me, the player when I was only following instructions.
 
surprise surprise it's 5e
 
I'll take my 5 doughnuts, please
I'm trying to decide the purpose of this temple, so I can decide its layout.

The first temple was for summoning and armory.

I'm thinking the second one is a breeding/experimentation. Think demon mad scientists.
So, what impact would that have on a "facility"?
 
@goodguy5 well definitely need holding tanks/cells for live subject material.
 
agreed
some sort of "OR"
 
6:15 PM
Yup.
 
@Rubiksmoose That's why I'm a fan of all character information is player public. Scoring and rewards are meted out based on how well the players role play the perspective of their characters. Only exception is puzzles.
 
What genre? High fantasy?
 
theoretically, they don't need a confinement for the finished "product"
yea, dave. "standard" D&D setting, which I affectionately refer to as "Dungeon Fantasy"
 
Depending on the nature of experimentation a room full of arcane symbols
Maybe a library or record of experimentation depending on how mad these people were
 
I figured that'd be the same as the OR
 
6:16 PM
Perhaps a deployment center (teleportation cricle or dormant gate)
 
Demons don't strike me as good bookkeepers
 
Some place to dispose of the uneeded subjects. (Sorlak pit?)
@goodguy5 fair enough lol
 
@DavidCoffron oooh yea. Either a "banishing" circle to send samples back, or an arrival circle to summon the inspector.
 
While they might not be good bookkeepers, they might at least try. Maybe a very poorly kept library of sorts
 
@Rubiksmoose perfect. I'm struggling to think of something other than an otyugh that would suit that position
wait, duh. gelatinous cube or like substance
 
6:18 PM
@goodguy5 Ah yeah black oozes would do it.
 
ah well, time to go home
 
@DavidCoffron I imagine it's one old book scrawled in blood
bai carcer!
 
I'm honestly not great on my monster knowledge but there might be some low level demons that work as well
 
specific monster knowledge isn't super needed.

demons eating failed demons doesn't seem... uh.... kosher, for lack of a better word
 
@goodguy5 seems pretty demon-y to me honestly.
 
6:20 PM
alright.

so, holding chamber, OR, inspection room, disposal.
I've mostly got this mapped out in my mind
 
Gotta have a place to sleep/chillax?
 
for demons? do they ever relax?
 
Some demon-y board games? Bedrolls? Food?
 
Shards and Bladders?
Demonopoly?
 
Settlers of Satan
 
6:26 PM
Dang it, I was trying to think of that so hard
 
I figure Demons play D&D just like the rest, but it's edgy when they play a 'Good' aligned party.
 
@A_S00 So good. If only they were devils it would be perfect
 
"Chattur'gha, are you really playing another super-holy Paladin? Ugh. What an edgelord."
"Come on man, Xeloath and Ullyoath have legit evil characters, why you gotta do this?"
 
"An elderly demon is crossing the chasm, it appears that someone is going to help her."
"Well, I do what anyone would do, I kill them both, we don't need that kind of behavior in our community"
 
Hey, at least in demon D&D there are no alignment debates.
 
6:39 PM
D&Demon
 
Neutral Demon Player "I dunno man, killing off everyone who does something good is gonna tip the scales too much and get people proactively killing anyone who looks like they're even thinking of helping. This is fine for the solo powerhouse demons, but some of us need gangs man."
"Plus if we're running around offing our own kind, the angels are gonna notice eventually and try to capitalize on it. Be discrete, I guess?"
 
6:54 PM
@Maximillian Bad Omens
 
Good Omens!
Lunch is over, back to the slog.
 
7:22 PM
This question seems too silly to stack, but you might disagree....
 
@goodguy5 Nothing is too silly for this stack
 
Can oozes (such as the gelatinous cube) jump?
 
@goodguy5 Generically, "can anything with a walk speed jump?" or the negation "Are there creatures with a walk speed that cannot jump?" and the related, "Can snakes jump?"
 
basically
 
Yeah, my answer is going to be "yes" even though I don't think I'd ever use it in an encounter
 
7:25 PM
Well, I was going to put some black puddings in my pit of disposal, then I realized they could climb
 
barring putting some sort of magic lube in there, that's not going to work
@ColinGross I don't know if "happy bouncing" is quite the same as "leaping"
 
@goodguy5 You can just draw a ring around the edge with chalk or salt or hot sauce or whatever in your narrative they find distasteful.
 
@goodguy5 No reason it can't
 
@goodguy5 I was under the impression that all twelve lords we're pretty happy... and possibly chasing after the milking maids.
 
7:27 PM
It's just bizarre to imagine a 10ft gap with a g.cube on the other side and realizing that it can still get you
 
@goodguy5 Can or will? I imagine they're pretty lazy fellows. Mostly just lounging around the place grousing about how the last football match ended in a shootout.
 
aren't they food motivated?
 
@goodguy5 It can't do that. They have a speed of 15 and need to move 10 to get thier jump distance of 14.
 
@goodguy5 I don't think they're motivated at all. Otherwise they'd get a haircut and a job.
 
@GreySage dash action
 
7:29 PM
Dashing isn't as incredulous as leaping for a slime?
 
But, I've decided on otyugh
 
8:03 PM
do vulnerabilities and resistances truly cancel out or is it ordered and potentially a rounding error?
 
@goodguy5 cancel cancel
Let's avoid rounding errors
 
Is this Dretch Swarm too Oppressive? I expect it to be a CR5

HP: 150 or so
Proficiency Bonus+3
Damage Resistances:cold, fire, lightning
Damage Immunities:poison
Condition Immunities:poisoned
Sensesdarkvision 60 ft., passive Perception 10

Claw and Fang : The Dretch Swarm makes two attacks +4 . 7 damage. normal swarm traits.

Fetid Cloud .A 10-foot radius of disgusting green gas extends out from the dretch. The gas spreads around corners, and its area is lightly obscured. It lasts for 1 minute or until a strong wind disperses it. Any creature that starts its turn in that area must succeed o
 
@goodguy5 To my eye it looks good. The only thing that stood out was that the HP seems a bit high, but that might be normal for swarms?
 
The HP is a bit high for usual, but making swarms is hard. I couldn't quite figure out how much it "should" have with the vulnerability of aoe and not healing
This feels like a stupid question, but is the number of 1° nodes on a sphere really 360^2?
~13k seems like a lot
 
8:18 PM
@goodguy5 Sounds right
For every degree in 1 plane, you have 360 degrees in the orthogonal plane.
 
idk, 360 seems like a fairly reasonable and understandable number, but 13k seems catastrophically high
 
@goodguy5 They don't cancel out, and cause a small rounding error.
 
oh, I'm sorry..... 130k
 
maybe it's only 180*360, because the back half is the mirror of the front half?
 
only for lines going through the sphere. for rays emanating from the center, you would need the full 360
 
8:21 PM
@goodguy5 Vulnerability is applied after resistance, so the damage is equal to the unmodified damage if the damage is even, and that minus one if odd.
 
noted, @kviiri, thanks
I wonder if that's intentional
 
@goodguy5 Pretty much has to be --- they specify the order (resistance first, then vulnerability) in the rules. I can't think of any reason why they'd make it work like that though.
 
exactly. going the other way has no rounding errors and, afaik has the same effect otherwise.
 
Yea
 
especially because going the other way would have adhered to pemdas
 
8:26 PM
@goodguy5 Not rounding until you get to a final number would have worked too
 
but D&D uses integer calculation!
how about that random shot question
 
@Rubiksmoose Given the caveats I provided, do you think that the title needs to be more than one word? Is that what informed your responses ...
@Maximillian I consider it a good omen when I see one of your posts in chat. :)
 
@KorvinStarmast Nah it wasn't the length of the title. It was the certainty with which you proclaimed it and (to me) the lack of support. You've definitely backed it up a lot more though now which I think is very good.
I still don't think you can proclaim it as true universally though. Especially if you look at it averaged across the number of players (which, to be fair, would be a different intrepretation and it is highly unclear what OP wanted).
 
@Rubiksmoose Given that I don't universally declare any such thing in the answer, I still think that the question will remain closed since there is no indication that the querent will return. We'll see.
If you think that the title / header could be improved, I am open to suggestions.
 
@KorvinStarmast Well the first version certainly seemed to say that (at least I read it that way). Just explaining my reasoning. But yeah the current version seems much more like "in my experience, this has been the most used".
 
8:41 PM
We'll see if it goes away, which I suspect it will.
 
@KorvinStarmast Based on your conclusion I think your title is fine.
@KorvinStarmast I'm with you there.
@goodguy5 After thinking about that question for a while I'm VtCing as unclear. I have no idea what kind of resolution they want on this and that is vital for an acceptable solution.
 
Well, I'm going to try to answer first
 
9:00 PM
nailed it
 
So I found a meme
 
heh
 
it made me realise that this exact phenomenon is exactly the same reason why people make bad suboptimal decisions in stories
@Shalvenay regarind your trouble understanding why someone might make a decision in a story you're reading that could be considered unwise given all information available to them, consider if you've ever had heated interpersonal arguments why you weren't able to formulate the perfect takedown on the spot
and what was going on at that point and why you weren't able to fabricate a perfect response and flawlessly maneuver the situation
 
@KorvinStarmast Sadly it's not as often as I'd like anymore. I abandoned half of my active Stack involvements and my new work location is not conductive to lurking in chat for too long when not on break.
 
@Maximillian glad to see you drop in when you can. Best wishes, and such.
 
9:23 PM
Appreciate it.
 
@doppelgreener congratulations you found two pictures of me
well done
XD
 
@trogdor which one is 2009 and which is 2019?
 
lol
both are both
 
@trogdor :D
 
I'm sure I did the same thing in 2009
heck, I fabricate fictional imaginary arguments with people I argue a lot with
not even on purpose my brain just does it
(the people are real the arguments are not)
 
9:36 PM
@trogdor Ooh, inverse Dragnet.
 
lol
I didn't even think of that
and also I have never used those arguments
90% of them don't come up and the other 10% I completely forget because arguments completely freeze me
I don't like starting arguments, I hate having them to begin with
 
@trogdor I'm the exact opposite, arguing is soooooo much fun, but I've learned it is also a complete waste of time so I just don't (most of the time).
 
mm
I honestly don't know if some of the people I have those arguments with like it or if they just,... are so used to doing it
I can't even grasp some of the time why any particular argument even cropped up
 
Unless everyone involved really wants to get to the truth of the matter AND they trust each other, no one ever gets convinced by other people arguing at them
 
@GreySage I find arguments highly.producrive with the right people. My brother and I always challenge each other's ideas and make each other better for it (at least we try to)
 
9:47 PM
typically if they start during a conversation I am in I have no idea what I even said that set it off
I think that's part of the reason I do those imaginary arguments
even though it seriously doesn't ever prepare me
@DavidCoffron my family is the opposite,.... arguments always happen over,... what I would call extremely trivial things
 
@trogdor My family loves to argue over trivial things, but we accept that they are trivial so no one gets emotionally invested. My wife's family on the other hand argues very seriously over every little thing. Family drama is a matter of course for them.
(I once got them to hate me for a week because I joked that Maleficent (in the movie Maleficent) was an abusive jerk.)
 
I once got in a don't-speak'to-each-other-for-a-week level screaming match with my cousin over whether or not having a snack late in the afternoon would cause me not to be hungry for dinner.
(in my defense I was 13)
 
I disagree @GreySage, let me put for my argument why...
forth*
(I'm not writing my argument why btw, it was a joke centered around arguing about arguing)
Moving swiftly on due to the lack of big lulz though, @goodguy5, that question is pretty clear about the random shooting and (as always) it kinda annoys me it has been locked down.
Sure, OP might not actually want to shoot in complete random directions, but surely a good answer could cover that? Aren't questions meant to be about more than OP anyway? Surely an answer that covers both truly random and 'blinded but generally in a certain direction' would cover what most people come to the question looking for.
 
10:06 PM
@GreySage Every problem in Maleficent wouldn't have existed if Stefan wasn't an idiot and conspired with Maleficent to become king.
 
I also completely disagree with Erics comment "...the odds of hitting something on a truly random shot are so low that..." - Well no, the odds of hitting something are pretty much 100%, I've never fired an arrow IRL or otherwise that never hit anything. (Of course it is pretty obvious he means hitting something meaningful which is why I changed my mind about responding :))
 
Oh, the king says that anyone who kills her will be the next king? Tell your friend that if you two can manage to convince the king that you killed her, you can also protect her home from intruders by virtue of being the next king.
Boom, problem solved.
 
@Yuuki True, but threatening to kill the princess (among others) and weaseling her way into becoming the princesses surrogate mother to steal her away permanently doesn't make her a nice person.
 
@GreySage Sure, but everyone was a jerk in that movie except the princess and arguably the prince.
Sure, he doesn't revive Aurora by kissing her but how long did that guy know her? It's really not his fault if he doesn't count as true love's kiss yet.
 
@Yuuki Especially because the burden of proof wanted by the King was lower than required to actually kill the witch. And apparently cutting parts off a witch causes them to become sentient and try to rejoin her.
 
10:11 PM
Like seriously. "Oh, you can just take my wings." "Wouldn't that... leave you without wings?" "Just bring them back in a few months and I can re-attach them." "... what."
 
@RyanfaeScotland No worries, I will absolutely defend the artistic merits of Maleficent.
AKA, the only one of the Live-Action Disney remakes that didn't suck.
 
@Yuuki And it's not like she needs them to do all her magic (including freaking teleporting), apparently
 
Yet another movie solved by people having patience to talk things out.
 
@RyanfaeScotland I was actually waiting for an argument, but either way I wouldn't be personally offended if you sincerely through she was a good character.
 
@Xirema The Jungle Book (2016) > Maleficent, fite me irl
And The Sorcerer's Apprentice wasn't great but it was still fun.
 
10:14 PM
@GreySage, I don't know enough about her to argue really, I did feel sorry for what happened to her though, losing her wings is insane.
 
@Yuuki TBH, I forgot they remade that.
 
Now The Jungle Book (2016), THAT I could argue about. It was great!
 
@Xirema Twice actually.
The original Jungle Book was a 1967 film. There was a 1994 live-action remake.
 
...I thought it was a book...
:)
 
@RyanfaeScotland I have to give a lot of props to the kid in that movie.
 
10:18 PM
It was.... really really weird to see Disney make Maleficent's backstory a PG-rated I Spit On Your Grave.
 
Child acting is hard enough, let alone child acting against CGI.
 
@Yuuki I enjoyed the 1994 version, it was a cool adventure story
The 2016 was... difficult. I felt like it didn't really have a point.
 
@GreySage I only saw that once and I was very young. (Young enough that I was excited my parents were letting me watch it for the first time because I couldn't before whatever age that was)
 
@Yukki, yeah he was really good but the fight with Sheercan (sp?) and the wolves really won me over.
 
@GreySage Honestly, I feel like it makes for a good replacement to the 1967 film.
 
10:20 PM
An unexpected but good addition
 
@Yuuki True, the original also didn't have much of a point.
 
About the only thing I can point to where it's worse than the 1967 film is Bill Murray's singing (or lack thereof, could you really call that singing?).
 
@Yuuki Worse than Christopher Walken's?
 
At least the plot is slightly more together in the 2016 remake than the 1967 original.
 
Maleficent is interesting because its central thesis is that the prior Disney movie, Sleeping Beauty, was basically just lies and propaganda. So it avoids the usual mistake these remakes usually make, where they try to "fix" problematic stuff by trying to plaster around them, while still having to indulge the central plot beats, and Maleficent comes along and is basically like "nah, it was all lies and BS", so they're free to restructure things and reorder things, and they only have to pay scant lip service to whatever events they decided really did happen.
 
10:23 PM
I was honestly intrigued somewhat by the rumors coming out of the Mulan remake until I heard they were keeping the songs.
 
Urrrgh.
 
You're not going to top Donny Osmond trying to make a man out of me so don't try.
 
Jungle Book, Mulan, Lion King... I'd like to see films that aren't just remakes of exotified manglings of the inspiring material.
 
@Yuuki There's a world where you make a really fantastic Live Action movie out of Mulan. I don't think the world where they take that approach is it.
 
@BESW I want black cauldron remake personally
@Xirema the effects of great wall with the story of Mulan would be excellent
 
10:25 PM
@BESW That's just the thing, I had heard rumors that they were going to throw out the songs and treat the source material more appropriately.
 
@BESW I think the Jungle Book inspiring material was already pretty exotic
 
@GreySage Go back to the original Indian stories Kipling modified to center his own perspective.
Tell the real story of Hua Mulan, or at least the Chinese legend of her.
 
And it honestly made sense that they would do that, given that China is a massive market and so there's incentives in place to get things right.
 
Give me a big-budget epic about Sundiata Keita, not the Henry triad with lions.
But of course any of those will also run into The Moana Problem.
 
The Moana Problem?
 
10:27 PM
Disney's Moana is... controversial, shall we say, amongst Pasifika people.
 
@RyanfaeScotland Moana—and movies like it—brush up against the really hot debate between cultural representation and cultural appropriation, and whether it's possible for a movie—especially a movie made by an immense multi-national corporation whose very existence often threatens the cultural autonomy of the cultures it seeks to represent—to authentically represent a culture without appropriating it.
 
It's still not an accurate or respectful depiction of any Pasifika culture; it's a mashup of stereotypes with more accurate textures. But more meaningfully it's still a major American company using Pasifika culture to profit in ways that steal cultural intellectual properties and don't give any significant benefit to the communities in return.
 
^ Also this.
 
I've talked about it before in this chat, with links to Pasifika voices on the subject.
 
Lindsay Ellis also had a great video that focused mostly on Pocahontas, but also discussed Moana as part of the same conversation, and how the conversation had advanced in the two-decade span between those two movies: "Pocahontas was a Mistake, and Here's Why!"
 
10:34 PM
That's a good video, yes.
 
@GreySage I have two lawyers just in my immediate family
 
Dec 15 '17 at 0:51, by BESW
@Mithrandir Teresia Teaiwa collected some discussions here‌​.
 
it's,... tiring
 
Some interesting reading there, thanks.
 
And then there's the whole issue of intellectual property which is... A Thing. Indigenous cultures generally have very strong, well-defined structures around what we'd call intellectual property, which are completely unlike the American-style attitude toward IP.
 
10:39 PM
@BESW I wonder if culture is something you can steal. Shouldn't it be public domain? Or maybe I'm thinking of a different definition of culture.
 
@Zachiel This is a major issue. "Public domain" is not something that transfers between cultures.
 
@trogdor I only have 1, but I also have a legal secretary.
 
Oh man
I imagine it's similar
 
You may attributing more power to the film than it deserves though, I mean, it's a Disney film not a documentary, I think most people would realise the nations represented in it are not to be considered accurate portrayals...
 
@Zachiel It's easier to agree with that sentiment when your culture hasn't been expressly taken advantage of by a dominant culture, or when your contributions to your own culture aren't regularly minimized or dismissed in that context.
 
10:41 PM
@RyanfaeScotland I can assure you this is exactly something I've seen happen. But it's not what I'm talking about.
 
I have 1 lawyer - well, no, one relative that studied law but then got another job, and I'm not sure he's good at it given his political choices and facebook posts :p
 
@Zachiel Interestingly, the better someone is at arguing, the less likely they are to post stupid things on Facebook, at least in my family.
 
@RyanfaeScotland I think the bigger issue is that Pasifika cultures don't really have any kind of accurate representation in popular culture, so the Disney movie is the only thing that has any serious cultural presence. That's why people write a lot of thinkpieces about movies like Moana (or back in the day, Pocahontas).
 
The lawyer doesn't post anything, and the secretary only posts mom-related things
 
@Xirema I guess the important part with Disney movies is knowing how much they misrepresent.
@GreySage Or maybe it's just me being the stupid one and not understanding that current italian politicians are actually not that bad. </sarcasm>
 
10:45 PM
@Zachiel Which also applies to their more Euro-centric movies. It turns out that not every step-mother is trying to kill their step-kids.
 
Ah sorry @BESW, I was reading the stuff you wrote in 2017 and just replied with that in mind and no context for the conversation here and now!
 
@Xirema For sure, if there were more visible representation of Pasifika peoples by Pasifika peoples, each individual instance of representation would have less weight. Until that happens...
 
@GreySage Well most Euro-centric Disney movies are about tales of old like Rapunzel, Snow-White, the Sleeping Beauty...
 
@Xirema, did it have any representation? Isn't inaccurate better than none? Least it gets people thinking about it and can lead to more accurate stuff in the future...
 
Again, I guess we already know our "mythology" is not supposed to be a creation myth
 
10:49 PM
Dec 27 '17 at 11:42, by BESW
That's why my friend cried at Moana when she saw taro on the big screen for the first time ever: the ground had moved underneath her. A real, personal part of her life was now shared with people around the world. She was, just a little bit, less unknown, less exotic, less unthinkable.
 
I don't know much, admittedly, about how much child tales and myth intertwine in the Pasifika "literature" (I think it's mostly oral tradition?) but my expectations are that it's more correlated.
 
@RyanfaeScotland Well, there was a big advertising push by Disney to represent Pocahontas (and later Moana) as their attempt to "tell the stories of Indigenous Americans/Indigenous Pacific Islanders". The movies themselves are a lot less pretentious on that front, but Disney at least was very interested in the cultural credibility of these movies.
 
Dec 15 '17 at 1:03, by BESW
Like, straight up Moana is not a Polynesian story because it's resting on Hero's Journey tropes, and Polynesian stories don't buy into the epistemological assumptions about community and individuals which the Hero's Journey presupposes.
Dec 15 '17 at 22:27, by BESW
(I suspect that Waititi's script put wayfinding on the center stage, and the line "We know where we are" would've been a statement of the main theme. But the mystical, spiritual ways that wayfinding and identity are connected in Polynesian epistemologies would've been very hard for a Disney audience to comprehend, much less swallow.)
 
Especially Pocahontas. If you take the accounts from Disney at the time seriously, the people working on it were convinced that they were working on solid gold Oscars material that would have dominated the conversation for years.
And it kind of did.... but very much NOT in the way they wanted.
 
10:53 PM
Ha, didn't realise that. Always felt Pocahontas was pretty contrived / artificial
 
But, again, the accuracy of Moana is secondary, even tertiary.
 
@BESW I cried a bit for the same reason watching Bao (which I still contend is far more value than The Incredibles 2 ticket you bought to see it). Which of course resulted in disappointment when I came across the general Internet reactions.
 
Disney did not give back to the Pasifika community in proportion to the advantages they gained from using the Pasifika community's cultural resources.
That they misused the cultural resources so badly makes it worse, but the real concern is that Disney now controls a multitude of Polynesian intellectual properties and is pretending (through the fig leaf of the Oceanic Trust) that they were freely given.
 
Controls?
 
Controls. Setting aside Disney's notoriously grabby attitude about intellectual property rights and how indigenous IP is largely undefendable in Western courts because they have an ownership structure unrecognized by our laws... Disney have massive international cultural influence. Their depiction of Polynesian reality is louder than any voice Polynesians have.
 
10:58 PM
@Zachiel tl;dr IP law is incredibly messed up in the US, in large part due to Disney.
 
yeah,... Disney does a lot of shady things with copyright
and also shady things to copyright
 
Going forward, anyone making stories about Maui is going to have to be super careful about how they do things, lest the Disney juggernaut glance in their general direction.
 
Given that different cultures have different types of storytelling, what about Moana's writing/narrative/depictions/etc was so un-Polynesian?
 
May 18 '17 at 4:02, by BESW
The themes of Moana are largely Disney and NOT Polynesian or Pasifika. Moana's personal journey is very Disney Princess; the depiction of a volcano as evil or bad or corrupted is downright offensive; Māui's portrayal is... well, Māui can be found in the stories and faiths of many different cultures and he's always a bit different, but it's hard to see the film's version in any of them. He's usually physically unimpressive but extremely clever, almost a trickster character.
May 18 '17 at 3:57, by BESW
The visuals are mostly right, though not always treated with appropriate respect (eg Moana's grandmother would probably not have chosen her manta ray malu; in most cultures it would have been bestowed on her by an elder after years of forming a relationship). Also I don't care how nasty your coconut is, only someone like Māui or Gadao could crack it open so casually.
Dec 15 '17 at 22:21, by BESW
It could branch out into other subjects like the ways Moana doesn't understand the Pasifika relationship with the landscape, but the core conclusion is that the film is about identity and it completely fails to understand that indigenous identities often don't start with the self.
Dec 15 '17 at 1:03, by BESW
Like, straight up Moana is not a Polynesian story because it's resting on Hero's Journey tropes, and Polynesian stories don't buy into the epistemological assumptions about community and individuals which the Hero's Journey presupposes.
Dec 15 '17 at 22:21, by BESW
@Mithrandir It would take a lot of time and energy I don't have right now to support the claim, but it boils down to: No, because the central theme "know who you are" has an individualist rather than collectivist conclusion.
 
That's something that I felt that they had trouble with in Mulan as well. Or rather perhaps that was a problem of audience perception. Mulan is not a story about gender roles or individuality. I think the ending where Mulan returns home to her family in her old place as a daugther (and possibly marries Shang) bothered people who thought it was a story about female empowerment.
Mulan didn't go to war because she was a tomboy who thought she was just as good as the men. She went to war for her father and her family.
The scenes with the ancestor spirits and the slapstick comedy was also kinda bothersome.
 
11:09 PM
Yes to all of that as well.
 
I think the worst Disney did to my culture (sort of) was changing a shark into a whale - but maybe I just didn't look enough into it.
 
I feel like the problem lies or at least starts with Reflection, Mulan's "I Want" song as the archetype's been called.
 
@Yuuki Since the I Want Song is the emotional core of a successful Disney Princess narrative and usually establishes the primary tension of the plot... yeah. Again, Moana shares that problem:
Dec 16 '17 at 1:28, by BESW
Urrrgh I do not have time to write that movies.se answer. It would have to talk about how Miranda wrote Moana's "I want" song by going back to his teenage bedroom and trying to remember what it felt like to be a... Puerto Rican boy in the '90s...
 
"I Want" songs state the central character conflict in the movie. Why does Mulan do what she does? In "Reflection", the implication is she wishes that she could be herself.
I felt it would've been accurate/nuanced if her "I Want" song was about she felt unable to live up to the role that her family/culture had given her. Yes, you lose a lot of individualism points, but Chinese culture is not an individualistic culture.
That would feed into her character arc as she leaves to join the army. Because "Reflection" clashes with the precipitating conflict event. Mulan leaves home because she sees that her father is physically incapable of becoming a soldier again, that to join the army would spell death. And so she goes in his place out of filial/familial duty to her father.
Not as a reaction to her father telling her to put away the sword and be a real girl, something that would've matched the "I Want" song much better.
(But would have also made the story much worse, imo)
With a different "I Want" song, it reinforces the theme of familial duty. Mulan feels that she can't serve or honor her family by being a traditional Chinese woman so therefore she attempts to do so by pretending to be a man.
It dovetails nicely with the ending scene of the movie, where her father tells her that the greatest honor is having her for a daughter.
 
I see.
That's been an eye-opening conversation
 
11:28 PM
Again, I strongly recommend reading Polynesian voices on the subject. I'm not Pasifika, I can only amplify their voices.
 
> For too long, Polynesian body image has been stuck between The Rock and a diabetic place.
4
I wholeheartedly believe all of human culture was a build-up to this line.
4
 
@BESW However, what do we do when we see other Polynesian voices saying they have no qualms whatsoever with the film?
 
@DavidCoffron I recommend reading Polynesian voices on the subject. I don't recommend only reading one Polynesian voice.
 
@BESW Fair enough. I've just seen a lot of discourse among scholars, natives, and "ley" people. I find it difficult to come to a conclusion since everyone makes good points on all sides
 
People have different perspectives and opinions, it'd be terrible to expect everyone in a whole group of connected cultures to share the same attitude.
 
11:33 PM
@BESW (you mean like the film implies? :P)
 
@DavidCoffron Excellent! It's complex and there's no easy answer. Anybody who tries to give you a "this is all good" or "this is all bad" answer has missed something significant.
Lin-Manuel Miranda has said that he was inspired to write musicals partly because, as a very young child, the Jamaican stereotype crab in Little Mermaid was his first exposure to representation of Caribbean people in musicals and it showed him he could be part of that scene too.
Obviously that crab is terrible representation, but it pushed someone toward making much better material that's coming from the own voices of the people being represented. Moana will, at the very least, continue that generational pattern.
 
@BESW And it opens up the discourse for people to discuss what makes "good" representation (of which Maui is widely considered to have missed the mark by either a lot or a bit depending on who you ask).
 
Jul 24 '18 at 21:17, by BESW
@Yuuki Absolutely. Nothing is perfect in this world, and so it's not only okay but necessary to like imperfect things.
@DavidCoffron [rummages for article] A few months ago I saw an interview with Boyega...
 
I'm heading to bed, now... and, as the Gemling Queen from Path of Exile just told me... ta-ta
 
@Zachiel gnight
 
11:41 PM
ttfn
 
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