Charcoal HQ

Glorfindel

10:00 PM

@Undo there's a Dutch saying about a donkey never hitting the same stone twice. I wonder if it translates to English...

DJMcMayhem

@Catija Unfortunately, I already did. I can't take it back until there's an edit

Undo

@RoryAlsop Either we're making a large contribution and therefore are bad, or we're making a small contribution so it's not worth it. Can't win ;)

The only way to win is to realize that the people you hear aren't the people you help.

Cerbrus

Hm, just read up on that scifi meta... looks like it's mostly misunderstanding of how MS / SD works that's the problem there.

Undo

@Cerbrus That answer is categorically wrong in several ways. I don't know how to respond to it, if at all.

Cerbrus

@Undo (The lowest scoring one?)

Undo

10:01 PM

aye

well, not Andy's

M.A.R.

@Cerbrus right. It's like folks not being introduced properly, thinking we're some bossy Skynet

Undo

Andy's doesn't have a big scary bold heading, though

Cerbrus

And that big bold heading is already incorrect

M.A.R.

I dunno, like deciding the fate of their questions for them

Cerbrus

I, personally, would point out the falsehoods in their answer.

DJMcMayhem

10:03 PM

Which has already been done

Undo

That's been tried.

Cerbrus

But I'm not known for being subtle, politically correct, or neutral in discussions

M.A.R.

They should see more of the common spam to realize we're not really here to judge SFF posts

Undo

Like... I can't downvote it, I can't ask for it to be deleted on technical grounds, and I don't have a good platform to point out that it's wrong

M.A.R.

@Cerbrus well, I wouldn't

Undo

10:03 PM

Can't make a comment bold enough to compete with an h1

M.A.R.

Enough Charcoal comments already

@Undo they don't appear to have Mathjax, do they?

Undo

bahahahaha

no

Glorfindel

The best way is to post it as a 'competing' answer with a higher score than theirs.

Which Andy did.

Cerbrus

> @Valorum: Please understand that "False Positives" aren't necessarily bad In the example available on this site, the false positives were properly identified as such. They weren't auto-flagged, they weren't deleted. Nothing bad happened to those posts. If anything, these false positives are an indication of SmokeDetector and the human factor behind it working properly.

M.A.R.

@Undo yeah, we just have to sit in our bossy chairs, being authoritarian jerks

DJMcMayhem

10:05 PM

It probably would have been better to let mith do it

Cerbrus

That's what I'd say

DJMcMayhem

> Smode

Hehe

Cerbrus

Derp

M.A.R.

Smode Ketector?

Kinda catchy

Cerbrus

Kode smecktor?

Undo

10:06 PM

Catches keleven posts an hour

Mad Scientist

@Cerbrus to be honest, metasmoke is entirely too confusing for anyone not active in the project. The difference between the false positives there, and false positives in autoflagging is far from obvious

M.A.R.

@Cerbrus That sounds like a villain's name

Cerbrus

@MadScientist I think that's exactly the problem for that answer.

doppelgreener

So, proposal: Don't link to per-site meta posts discussing Smokey, and don't attempt to engage in them, including commenting, least of all vote. The more people from Charcoal merely participate the more we'll give the impression we're controlling their processes.

2

That's not to target Mith, who's clearly realised it was a mistake to link the meta at all.

M.A.R.

@MadScientist and the emojis are probably not helping it

Undo

10:08 PM

@doppelgreener No reason we can't post numbers and correct false statements. No one else can do that.

Cerbrus

@doppelgreener Aye and nay. If they don't understand how SD works, we should explain it

doppelgreener

I am concerned that as few people should be involved in doing so as possible. ^

Undo

@MadScientist This is true. The site dash is an attempt at fixing that issue, but it's easy to stray out of it and find yourself looking at data you think you understand.

Cerbrus

We should basically be impartial but informative, imo

Undo

@doppelgreener ... yeah, agree.

Glorfindel

10:09 PM

@doppelgreener they're posted automatically by a feed when they're tagged [spam].

Undo

@Cerbrus Problem is... our numbers are so good that being truthful looks an awful lot like being partial.

M.A.R.

@doppelgreener that one is true

doppelgreener

@Glorfindel huh, we have a global subscription on that tag somehow?

Cerbrus

@Undo Stop bragging :D

Undo

:D

Glorfindel

10:09 PM

@doppelgreener yes.

M.A.R.

@Undo we need to work on that

Undo

Like... how?

Cerbrus

Ah well, it' not like I can downvote bad answers on such metas, any way

M.A.R.

Change the minimum accuracy from 99.75% to 0.25%

2

Glorfindel

3 hours ago, by Mithrandir

I'm a 20ker on SFF but a large percentage of the people active on meta... kinda don't like me :P

Undo

10:11 PM

@M.A.R. I like it. "We made our numbers less partial"

M.A.R.

Or maybe try catching NAAs, chatty comments, bad reviews, and sarcastic comments.

Glorfindel

... or bad meta posts.

M.A.R.

@Glorfindel also edits that conflict with the author's intent

Rory Alsop

Can I assume that the clique who runs Smokey just doesn't have enough cool stuff to do that they feel the need to impose their toy on us now? — KutuluMike 1 min ago

Obviously hasn't read anything about how long it has been working

Cerbrus

... wut

M.A.R.

10:13 PM

@RoryAlsop wow they're going full Mos Eisley on us

DJMcMayhem

:/

Undo

Don't respond. Don't respond. Don't respond.

Rory Alsop

People are odd. And groups of odd people are odder

Cerbrus

@Undo Fingers are itching....

WELZ

Looks like we may just get another site like bi

Rory Alsop

10:14 PM

@Undo I'm not going to respond. However, I am allowed to flag rude remarks or obsolete comments, and I do have full voting privileges over there

DJMcMayhem

Yeah, this is getting to me. I think I'll need to log off for a bit

Undo

@RoryAlsop You're not really a Charcoal member for the purposes of this, as far as I care ;)

M.A.R.

@Undo haha I had a vision, that people in hell are being tortured not by fire, but by wrong opinions about them and them not being able to respond

Cerbrus

"No you can't" < to both his comments :D

M.A.R.

@Cerbrus I am about to post a rant about free speech right now

Or maybe free assumption

Cerbrus

10:17 PM

Okay. Just leave me out of it xD

SmokeDetector

New metasmoke user 'Jerrybibo' created

Mithrandir

coughs

quartata

The SFF mods wil take care of it

Undo

Can someone who knows English handle this one?

@Undo, "Review after nuke" is self-contradictory, for the reason given in my previous comment. Please can you write comprehensibly? — sampablokuper 32 secs ago

Ideally only one someone

quartata

it's just the usual vocal minority crap

i hate to be mean but these people in general don't like SE so

M.A.R.

10:19 PM

@Undo knowing English is a required skill for any programmer. Shame on you

It might sometimes be a required skull as well, IDK

@quartata vocal majority

quartata

@Undo all they're saying is that if you have 5 automatic flags and someone makes a mistake and casts 1 manual flag, you need a mod to undelete it

Mithrandir

@Undo I tried

Cerbrus

@Undo I don't think you can convince that user either way

quartata

@M.A.R. uh no not really. Those two are the particulars

Cerbrus

One of those "The decline of Stack Overflow" users

quartata

10:21 PM

@Cerbrus Said user is just saying to use 4 flags

Undo

@Cerbrus Probably not, but he's still decently coherent.

quartata

That's fine

Cerbrus

I probably shouldn't say that

M.A.R.

@quartata Undo just made the typo while making the point, and it was so funny it needs repeating

quartata

well who cares. They're saying 4 flags is fine, 5 flags means no easy peer review

Undo

10:22 PM

Don't attack the user. We don't need to attack the user when we're confident of the processes.

3

@M.A.R. I've done it twice now >.<

quartata

that's a fine point

nobody cares about the messenger

don't become what the haters say we are

Undo

Fun fact: Ad hominem attacks are an awesome last ditch effort. We've got a few dozen ditches left still.

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Offensive answer detected: l'Hospital's rule with trigonometric functions by Ihatemylife on math.SE

tpu- by K.Dᴀᴠɪs

quartata

undo isn't old enough to be the godfather anyways

M.A.R.

@quartata dogs get old faster

I already bought a grave

SmokeDetector

10:25 PM

New metasmoke user 'Hammerbot' created

Undo

o.O

Cerbrus

wut

quartata

undo's only 3 in dog years

M.A.R.

@SmokeDetector competition is healthy

Mithrandir

Wat

Catija

10:25 PM

18 actual years is like 90 in dog years, though...

M.A.R.

@quartata aww, cute

Undo

inverse dog years

quartata

@SmokeDetector this is an actual human

M.A.R.

With a cool username

quartata

in case you were wondering

Glorfindel

10:27 PM

Time to give Smokey a gold tag badge so it can properly hammer things.

M.A.R.

I was. You quenched my thirst for knowledge

I can use that information in so many ways

quartata

@Undo should I bother learning Capistrano for Inferno

Undo

Yes

It's awesome

quartata

ok

Undo

way better than SSH'ing in manually

I did that for a long time. No fun.

quartata

10:28 PM

oh right I forgot it did that

Undo

And you get one-command rollbacks and such

(it keeps the previous five deploys, easy to roll back a bad one)

M.A.R.

@Glorfindel what people fail to notice, is most spam posts are duplicates

Glorfindel

but you can't close question X as a duplicate of an already deleted question Y.

K.Dᴀᴠɪs

/o\ . /o/ . \o/ . \o\ . \o/ . /o\ . /o/ . \o/ . \o\ . \o/ . /o\ . /o/ . \o/ . \o\ . \o/ .

M.A.R.

@Glorfindel we sould have a canonical weight lost post then. It should include an answer with a cream, pills, suppo . . . other stuff

@K.Dᴀᴠɪs charades? It's a bunch of people

K.Dᴀᴠɪs

10:31 PM

Wouldn't it be ironic if a spammer spammed the meta page?

M.A.R.

Swimming

thesecretmaster

I see I've missed a ton. Maybe this has been mentioned, but what do y'all think of building a review queue for autoflagged tp posts? So that autoflagged+deleted posts still get > 3 human eyes on them.

Undo

@K.Dᴀᴠɪs and we caught it and autoflagged it

Mithrandir

@K.Dᴀᴠɪs Meta.SE used to be a big spam target

Undo

@thesecretmaster Already mentioned, IIRC someone made a GH issue and I intend to do it

ArtOfCode

10:32 PM

Lotta stuff happened while I was out, huh...

Undo

@ArtOfCode Nothing overly bad. SFF is... weird, as usual.

K.Dᴀᴠɪs

@Undo No... Since it only had three autoflags everyone had to see it.. But we could show MS autoflagging x 3

Mithrandir

@K.Dᴀᴠɪs Oh, and there was spam on the bottom of our last Meta.SE network wide featured post, ironically

M.A.R.

@ArtOfCode not good quality drama, unfortunately

ArtOfCode

@Undo aye, seen that. Looks like it's mostly swinging the right way

Glorfindel

10:33 PM

@thesecretmaster github.com/Charcoal-SE/metasmoke/issues/339 comes close.

SmokeDetector

New metasmoke user 'Lauraducky' created

M.A.R.

The aye content of Charcoal HQ is appalling, I reiterate

Undo

@ArtOfCode I don't think we're swinging it, which is good.

@M.A.R. aye, need to do something about it

I think I got it from Art.

M.A.R.

We don't wanna look like a bunch of Ayers, do we?

thesecretmaster

@Undo Oh, ok. Great

ArtOfCode

10:34 PM

Aye aye

M.A.R.

@Undo first you get red spots, then die at peace

quartata

...didn't notice that the SFF post was +11/-13

it's flat out misinformation, what is this

Could you edit to more clearly indicate that you know the Story-ID bot culprit is a different bot than the one being discussed in the question? This answer currently makes it sound like it might be the same bot. — SevenSidedDie 51 secs ago

it's even worse than I thought

Undo

... That's a pro-us comment

oookay, I think we're done here :p

Cerbrus

@ArtOfCode: Where is that site dashboard in metasmoke's menu

quartata

@Undo I mean I didn't know that that's what he meant by the story-id thing

ArtOfCode

10:36 PM

@Cerbrus linked from the homepage

M.A.R.

Can we talk about something else?

Cerbrus

Ah :-)

ArtOfCode

could also go in the tools menu

M.A.R.

I'm tired of itchy fingers

Cerbrus

That'd be nice

DJMcMayhem

10:37 PM

@M.A.R. cats

K.Dᴀᴠɪs

SoOoOoooooOOOooo..... How's everyone doing

M.A.R.

@DJMcMayhem right. Cold blooded killers

Undo

aye

M.A.R.

Waiting for an opportunity

Cerbrus

Hm, that puts this into context:

@Magisch - I see an imperfect bot. Come back in a year when it's not posted any false positives. — Valorum 3 hours ago

M.A.R.

10:38 PM

@Undo I'll cut your dog food supply for a month

DJMcMayhem

@M.A.R. theoatmeal.com/comics/cats_actually_kill

Undo

cut by how much?

K.Dᴀᴠɪs

@Undo likely the number of fp.. So only between .01 - .05%. You won't notice a difference.

M.A.R.

@Undo 99.75%

Undo

@K.Dᴀᴠɪs aye, that works

M.A.R.

10:41 PM

Naye

Oh no, I am transforming

DJMcMayhem

@M.A.R. naye the science guy?

thesecretmaster

Might be good to make the dash more general-public friendly by excluding all non-autoflagged fps.

Undo

@thesecretmaster That's how it would tend to be used, yes

Maybe a tab the change the context between "autoflagged stuff" and "everything reported"?

M.A.R.

@DJMcMayhem aye

WELZ

@ArtOfCode now that I'm a "blacklister", do I go on that section on /people?

SmokeDetector

10:45 PM

New metasmoke user 'Chris Nevill' created

M.A.R.

@WELZ whoa 'blacklister'. Has a Matrixish thing to it. Do you wear sunglasses . . . at night?

K.Dᴀᴠɪs

I'm offended that I am not an all-round cool people

Well goodnight

storms off

PR the website

10:47 PM

Here's hoping things don't explode

WELZ

The /people page needs to be updated. (I think that some of those people are no longer active here)

Rory Alsop

@M.A.R. but that's how us Scots speak, dammit!

Mithrandir

@WELZ we don't kick inactive people off

M.A.R.

@K.Dᴀᴠɪs you should go to meta Charcoal and ask "Do we need cool people?"

WELZ

@Mithrandir nope, we don't. but if they're team members, shouldn't they be active? (i'm just asking)

Mithrandir

10:48 PM

@WELZ meh

It's volunteer

WELZ

FAQ: How cool do we have to be?

Rory Alsop

@WELZ 6

M.A.R.

@WELZ it's a tag team thing

Rory Alsop

out of 10

WELZ

Answer: Cool-er

or "all-round "

M.A.R.

10:49 PM

@RoryAlsop ay . . . hic . . . Aye hic hic

Well, I've caught it too

Rory Alsop

@WELZ That's a good general answer to things. Just respond with "...er"

@M.A.R. terrible. Implying Scots are in some way associated with drink...

ahem

WELZ

so, how much rep do I need? More-er

Rory Alsop

@WELZ no - that's not enough. It needs to be more-er-er

Andy

@quartata huh. He moved from accusing me to accusing smokey.

Undo

@Andy ... of another bot's crimes

quartata

10:53 PM

@Andy yeah, I was on the fence but after the edit he has to be deliberately being misleading. the comments should be for the benefit of the voters really

which seem to split somehow

@Randal'Thor - I'm finding it intriguing how many of the people above have had zero interaction with the site - quartata, for example has posted no questions, no answers, no meta questions and no meta answers and yet would like to tell us how to run the site — Valorum 22 secs ago

is this for real

Catija

Shog just answered...

quartata

his answer just made my day

completely short circuits the "can't find the spammers"

if we could get that to happen in an official capacity

Undo

Shog is awesome.

So freaking awesome.

K.Dᴀᴠɪs

@Undo always

M.A.R.

@Catija huh, where?

Cascabel

10:59 PM

So it's great to have that there, coming from a CM, but I would note that there was already feedback from multiple mods asking for some form of obvious (easily discoverable/understandable) reports. Shog said it well, in an important place, but it's not just him.

M.A.R.

A Shog answer is worth reading no matter what

Undo

4

A: A machine can flag spam automatically. Can it do better?

The biggest advantage I see in how the Smoke Detector project has operated thus far is its transparency: one of the most frustrating aspects of using these sites is how difficult it can be to determine precisely what happened in a given scenario (much less why it happened) - even for moderators, ...

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