English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

7:00 PM

Well, if you install anything on your PC, you basically give full permissions for everything.

It's not that I couldn't live with the risk.

Matt Эллен

only if you're crazy

Cerberus

Even the minor update that is Jelly Bean makes me consider giving this up.

@MattЭллен ?

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus install things on your pc in a restricted permissions environment and it can't do just anything, only what it's allowed

Cerberus

All right, if you are not an admin.

The discomfort of that is not worth it for me personally, but sure.

But even then...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Google+ is the future of all of Google's personalized services

little by little it will all be rolled into there

Cerberus

7:04 PM

I don't really care about G+ one way or another.

I just dislike it, so I deny it permission.

Then I feel good.

Like praying.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

whatever floats your boat, I guess

Gigili

OK, I ignored Cerb and it feels good.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Why are you so interested in G+?

MetaEd

I drank the Gool-Aid

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I like G+.

Cerberus

7:09 PM

Oh, I'm sorry.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

But I'm not interested in whether or not you use it. Just pointing out that your security app is blocking a whole bunch of Google products unnecessarily. I.e. it is not actually gaining you any privacy.

Cerberus

I know that.

It is also overhead.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I'm just trying to put a bound on the total loss to you should this app completely fail on JB

@Cerberus what overhead

Cerberus

It may be slight, but I feel comfortable knowing that G+ isn't synchronizing contacts every 2 minutes over GPS and satellite drones and whatnot.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Oh, I appreciate it.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus it doesn't synchronize contacts. the contacts app synchronizes your contacts.

Cerberus

7:11 PM

Yeah, yeah.

Matt Эллен

the drones will find you eventually, Obama will see to that

Cerberus

But why does it need to access my contacts at all, if Google already has them?

It seems an extra action, and actions potentially use CPU and memory...

@MattЭллен I will jam and spoof their GPS!

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Because the OS is modular.

actually, I wonder. Maybe it does provide you with some privacy? in the event that you have multiple providers of contacts.....

Cerberus

There is also the chance that, by granting access, I am giving Google "permission" to do stuff to my contacts that it would otherwise not be allowed to, despite its wish to unify its contacts (I think the EU forbade that anyway?).

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 You mean, it could also theoretically access my Skype contacts, say?

(I have three, by the way.)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus if Skype is set up as a contact provider.... perhaps

Cerberus

7:15 PM

I have Hotmail set to not synchronize contacts, but I guess it would treat all contacts synchronized through the regular e-mail/Exchange function as contacts somehow?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Actually I would guess that yes, that is what would happen. Whatever G+ uses the local contact DB for, it would be accessing contacts from all your providers

Cerberus

Even so, Google has my OS, so it can technically access anything it wants.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Well, yes and no. from a programming perspective, yes, but imagine the outrage if they just uploaded your contacts to the mothership for no reason.

esp. your, eg, skype or facebook contacts.

Cerberus

It could theoretically have planted spores in the phone speaker that will cause broccoli to grow out of my ears.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes, exactly.

Something like that is another (minor, because Google has my main contacts anyway) reason why I like to deny permissions to Google stuff whenever I can.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I am trying to set up a facebook account on my phone to see if it becomes a contact provider. I thought the app already did that but I realized, on reflection, that it must not be doing that.

Cerberus

7:18 PM

I won't let Google install any toolbars on my Firefox, for example.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It is not very transparent about such things.

Google stuff magically appears in places.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus nor I, but that's for performance reasons.

Cerberus

That, too.

Meanwhile, I am trying to have Chrome synchronize bookmarks to my mobile.

But it isn't working, probably because I need to do it with the same Gmail account on both devices (I tried to use another on on my PC to confuse Google).

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus yes, you need to use the same acct, naturally

Gigili

@Cerberus Yes, It asks you if you want to use an already-existing account

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Not naturally: I was supposedly allowed to pick a Google account in Dolphin to synchronize with.

@Gigili Dolphin just asks my to pick any Google account, or so it appeared.

Gigili

7:23 PM

What's Dolphin?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

No. It is completely natural that you'd need to have the same account on both devices in order to sync. What would it mean if you had two different accounts? that anyone could sync your bookmarks?

Cerberus

@Gigili A very good browser on Android.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 No, I have to provide a username and password for a Google account in Dolphin's settings.

I was a bit surprised myself.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus that is tantamount to having the same account in both places

Cerberus

?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

you could just add a 2nd google acct to your phone

Cerberus

7:26 PM

It seems the other account would only sync with Dolphin.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus The browser uses your system-wide google acct. So it has to be the same as the acct on the PC which shares the bookmarks.

Cerberus

It is not in my Android list of synchronizing accounts.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 "The browser"?

This is Dolphin.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus You could just add it, and turn off sync for all the other parts of that acct

@Cerberus Chrome

Cerberus

Not Chrome, Dolphin.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

no, we're talking about Chrome, and how it naturally uses the same google account as the PC for sync'ing the bookmarks

Cerberus

7:28 PM

I am talking about Dolphin, always have.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

8 mins ago, by Cerberus

Meanwhile, I am trying to have Chrome synchronize bookmarks to my mobile.

Cerberus

7 mins ago, by Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Not naturally: I was supposedly allowed to pick a Google account in Dolphin to synchronize with.

I will admit that I wasn't very clear before this line.

Chrome on my desktop => Google account on my desktop (in the cloud) => Dolphin on my phone.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus My ponit is, SO WHAT if some other browser, does things differently? Chrome uses the Google account of the system because that's what most people expect. And the same account has to be present on both ends of the connection. Dolphin merely uses that "same account" in an explicitly more limited way. It's still there and if you gave it your username/password it can access your whole google profile.

Cerberus

Not sure what this means.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So when you say "Not naturally", you're wrong. Most people expect that they have one google account with bookmarks in it, and when they're using chrome they use that account.

Cerberus

7:32 PM

In any case, Dolphin lets me pick another Google account, and yet it refused to synchronize with it.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus well, that's odd.

Cerberus

Arg.

And now it refuses to let me log in with my main Google account.

When I log out with my secondary account in Dolphin, then try to log on with a different account in Dolphin, it automatically logs me in with my secondary account.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

have you turned on two-factor authentication on your google accts yet?

Cerberus

No.

Although it would be a pain to lose my Google account...but then it would also be a pain to have to log into anything Google with two factors.

What is the other factor anyway?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

a number, which is delivered to you through some non-internet means

I use the Android app

Cerberus

7:39 PM

Raaah, I cleared Dolphins cache and stuff, but it still won't budge. I guess I have to uninstall it.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

it generates codes

no wait!

Cerberus

Hmm.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

you can clear the app's data

Cerberus

I have done so.

In the "Apps" menu.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

did you force-close it first?

Cerberus

7:39 PM

Yes.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

so you force-cllosed it and cleared its cache and data and it still remembers something from before?

that shouldn't be possible

Cerberus

Yes.

It has these permissions, you see...God knows where it gets its data.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

uninstalling it might not help

try rebooting your phone

Cerberus

Yeah I could try that.

MetaEd

"Rebooting your phone". I hate that.

Cerberus

7:42 PM

It does ask me to log into a Google account when I choose to do so, but then, when I should see the user and password fields, it automatically logs me in instead. So it doesn't keep me logged in, but automatically logs me in. Odd.

But I have to run now, BRB.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@MetaEd heh

In practice I rarely reboot my phone. With Gingerbread I used to have bluetooth problems, but ICS fixed all of those.

MetaEd

I have always wished for my computer to be as easy to use as my telephone; my wish has come true because I can no longer figure out how to use my telephone. —Bjarne Stroustrup

2

Gigili

8:03 PM

Since I'm not a native, could someone explain who "it" is? — Carlo_R. 28 mins ago

[no comment]

And he's a 3k user.

bangs head against wall

Jez

@MetaEd that's rich coming from a guy who invented one of the most cumbersome programming languages ever

Matt Эллен

I quite agree

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

8:30 PM

programming language inventors who don't understand phones? high-rep users who don't understand english? what is the world coming to?

2

Gigili

I know the answer, it starts with 's'.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

8:45 PM

time for me to fly!

flies

Matt Эллен

►

Meat Planet

MetaEd

@Jez C++ doesn't seem any more cumbersome than C to me. In some ways simpler, especially if you are trying to do OO but also the I/O.

So maybe you consider C cumbersome.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 There's always UUCP.

Cerberus

9:01 PM

> Turn out (which means 'to eventuate; result in') uses a PATH metaphor. Whatever turns out of a path exits the path at some point, and that defines the result of taking that turning.

How do you feel about this path metaphor?

Matt Эллен

meh

Cerberus

Do you feel it?

Matt Эллен

I would prefer a metaphor that was different

I get it, but it's not perfect

MetaEd

Maybe it's a baking metaphor.

Cerberus

Are you sure about this path metaphor? I've always thought of it as something hidden that was turned outward to reveal itself—but perhaps that's just me. As to your container, that's probably a more general way of describing something that encloses another thing? Because it makes me think of coming up out of water or earth or a heap of things, not an actual box (as per your "surface"). In an actual box, the typical movement is not down <=> up but rather in <=> out. Conceptual metaphors are interesting. — Cerberus 3 mins ago

MetaEd

9:03 PM

Where you take your pan out of the oven and turn out your buns.

Cerberus

Better...but do you actually turn them in that situation?

@MetaEd I like it

I lik ebuns.

:D

@Cerberus I have a srtong sense of déjà vu.

Matt Эллен

9:04 PM

let's see what the OED says...

Cerberus

@MattЭллен Oh, dear. That will be a lot of work...

Gigili

Pft.

MetaEd

I think OED will suggest a lathe metaphor

judging from what I found at OEtmD

Cerberus

@Gigili Really? I don't remember anything similar.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus not really. I'm htere now!

Cerberus

9:05 PM

@MetaEd Oh?

@MattЭллен Isn't turn a very long entry?

Matt Эллен

ok, so this is the verb usage

@Cerberus yeah, but I can jump to turn out

Cerberus

Ah OK.

Gigili

@Cerberus Wasn't that an answer or something?

Cerberus

No idea.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus which has a lot of entries itself :(

Cerberus

9:07 PM

I knew it.

Matt Эллен

it's intransitive, right?

MetaEd

@MattЭллен Yes I would look at the verb

Matt Эллен

not much in the way of origin

turns out that wasn't very helpful after all

Cerberus

Perhaps it makes more sense if you see what main number it is derived from?

Matt Эллен

cornbread ninja

9:14 PM

@FumbleFingers regarding the new question from our vexatious user, the account merge has already been performed(he asked it with a different name, natch). I believe the working plan is only to close the question if it is a poor fit for the site.

Matt Эллен

Reference link

Cerberus

Hmm yes, not very helpful.

@MattЭллен Can't access it from my normal home connection.

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus no, but I thought it would be fair to the OED to at least provide a link to the stuff I stole

cornbread ninja

@Cerberus that's very pretty.

MetaEd

@cornbreadninja I thought the working plan is to delete the question if it has no upvoted answers.

cornbread ninja

9:18 PM

@MetaEd hmm.

Cerberus

Fair use.

@MattЭллен Very fair. And stole...please!

@cornbreadninja Thanks! I didn't make it.

Gigili

I wish I was Carlo.

@FumbleFingers - I cannot see the deleted users' questions, but I think that this user recently has assumed different identity. — Carlo_R. 5 mins ago

OK, I'll keep my mouth shut!

Matt Эллен

@Cerberus probably. anyway, I'm sure they have a prefered way to be cited. I'll look that up for next time

Cerberus

OK.

cornbread ninja

@Mitch as far as I know. Did you have a listen?

Mitch

10:08 PM

@cornbreadninja listening now.

yeah that sounds like a 'foreign accent' not a ...

►

not a variant English accent (yes I realize that that is a questionable distinction)

Matt Эллен

It's a South African accent

Mitch

but it does sound like all the people I gave in my SAE question (de Klerk, Botha, DIstrict 9, Matt Damon (OK, not so much there))

@MattЭллен but which one? An Afrikaner speaking English as a 2nd language, or -the- anglo SAE accent? (of course presuming there's a difference)

Matt Эллен

@Mitch Well, he's more on the Dutch side. Probably speaks Afrikaans more often than English

IMO

Mitch

@cornbreadninja also, those are the most idiotic lyrics.. 'butterflies', 'I need your protection'? Shut the front door. Please. Behind you.

@MattЭллен that's what my SAE question was about.

Matt Эллен

@Mitch heh, I see. I missed the beginning of the conversation!

Cerberus

10:15 PM

@Mitch That is the weirdest music video I have ever seen.

It does sound like an Afrikaans accent.

Matt Эллен

@Mitch I would say that he has English and Afrikaans as first languages

Cerberus

Probably.

But South-African English is much closer to English English.

It has a tinge of a black accent, but usually not extremely strong.

Matt Эллен

Aye

Cerberus

But I guess there are all sorts of accents in SA that we may not know about.

Matt Эллен

Certainly

Cerberus

10:18 PM

That is really the last country on earth I would ever want to go to.

Let alone live it.

Matt Эллен

Really?

Cerberus

Hope I haven't insulted anybody.

Matt Эллен

It's not so bad.

Cerberus

Violence.

Matt Эллен

I can think of worse places

Cerberus

10:18 PM

Racism.

Mitch

@Cerberus yeah...I was trying to narrow it down to Afrikaners speaking English and(if one can call it that) standard SAE

Cerberus

I guess.

@Mitch Yeah, it's hard, because probably all Afrikaners speak English as well.

Mitch

@MattЭллен sucks to be black there.

Cerberus

And Afrikaans is Dutch with a black accent and English influences...

Matt Эллен

@Mitch Well if the rumours about Texas are true...

Mitch

10:20 PM

@Cerberus right and my question was about if the English that Afrikaners speak is pretty much also the English that the Anglos speak, or if it is really Afrikaans accented English.

Cerberus

OK.

Matt Эллен

But yeah, I know it's bad, but it's improving

Cerberus

My impression agrees with Matt.

Mitch

@MattЭллен I think it sucks to be Mexican there.

Cerberus

But then how often do we hear the accent of the real boeren?

Matt Эллен

10:21 PM

@Mitch :D

Mitch

@Cerberus de klerk, Botha, District 9, Matt Damon in invictus

Matt Эллен

My impression of South Africans that don't speak Afrikaans natively is that their English is much more intelligible to me.

they don't substitute in many words that I don't understand

Cerberus

Are they real boeren?

@MattЭллен Right, makes sense.

Mitch

getting rid of apartheid probably felt great for a bit, but then they realized most blacks are still poor as dirt there. so it's a plus that riot police don't smash your tin house in the middle of the night with no heads up, but you still live in a tin house.

in transit BBL

Matt Эллен

CU

Cerberus

10:29 PM

@Mitch Yes, it maybe have got a bit better for them.

Bye!

Robusto

Nobody cares that linguistics is solving crimes. That's apathy for you.

Matt Эллен

I cared for a few minutes last time you brought it up, but, you know, the constant stream of shiny things vying for my attention is difficult to ignore

Robusto

> In recent years, following Shuy’s lead, a growing number of linguists have applied their techniques in regular criminal cases, such Chris Coleman’s, and even certain commercial lawsuits, ... [including] a suit between Apple and Microsoft over the use of the phrase “app store.”

@MattЭллен Squirrel!

Matt Эллен

@Robusto oh! where?

Robusto

It just jumped out the window of your flat! Quick, follow it!

Matt Эллен

10:38 PM

plunges to broken limbs

Robusto

My work here is done.

Matt Эллен

10:48 PM