English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

> But what if the thief turns off my phone???

Which is what I would do if I were going to steal a phone.

So would I.

@NinjaTurtle whoosh

NinjaTurtle

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 :D

3:06 PM

@Cerberus um, just try it? I don't think it lasts forever.

It's funny how many "This is awesome" reviews there are. It kind of reminds me of when I read people's fortunes and they say "It's all true!"

And internally I roll my eyes and think "You have no idea if it's true or not."

Oh! Taco salad time! brb

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 No, but I'm scared!

►

@KitFox Could be!

@Cerberus well, I just sent an alarm to one of my test phones, I'll let you know how it turns out

you know what you might want to do? go into your phone and check the wifi sleep policy

I'm in the middle of this story from guy who is going to find his wife's phone back...

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It never sleeps.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Haha that guy will be scared to death!

@Cerberus the wifi never sleeps? are you sure? on most of my android phones the wifi sleeps when the screen is off

3:11 PM

Nope.

@Cerberus no, I did it to one of the phones I have

Turns out never letting it sleep is actually better for battery life, don't know why.

@Cerberus I think it is the default behaviour.

It is.

And I left it at that.

But anyway, I'm sure AL can turn on Wifi.

Not sure about AL, but HAL can.

3:13 PM

Almost the same thing!

HALAL?

@Cerberus you left it as "sleep when the screen is off", which is the default?

Hah, I got a Reg reference! Even though I haven't read the book(s).

@MattЭллен Yes. HALAL-9000.

at least, it's the default on all the ones I have here?

3:13 PM

:D

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes, and I believe it is the default.

@Cerberus or seen the films

Journeyman Geek

@RegDwightАΑA: is that the muslim approved homicidal robot? Is there a kosher alternative?

@Cerberus so your WIFI does, or does not, sleep when your screen is off

@MattЭллен Ehm no. I might like to, though.

3:14 PM

I've not seen them either. I've seen bits

@JourneymanGeek The AL in HALAL already stands for "alternative". The rest stands for "kosher", a popular transliteration mistake.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Oh oops, it never sleeps, as was the default.

my point is this: if your wifi sleeps when the screen is off, and a thief removes the sim card, AndroidLost won't do anything while the phone's screen is off

@Cerberus then they must have changed the default, because I have 4 android phones here and they all defaulted to "sleep when the screen is off"

Maybe you should check it in the Wi-Fi advanced settings

Oh la-dee-da. I have four Android phones. Where you keep'em, in your car hole?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 True. But it will also not do anything if the Wifi is not connected to the internet.

3:16 PM

@Cerberus What good is an android phone with no internet and no SIM?

user19161

@Danielδ He might not get the ping or be sophisticated enough to know where to find chat!

@RegDwightАΑA It's ok, I have an iphone too, so that balances my karma at zero.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I read about it when I got the phone, checked the settings, and it was set to never sleep. I left it at that, because my sources said that this was the best setting.

@Cerberus heck, even my tablet had that setting, and it doesn't even have 3G, so it was rather dumb to leave it like that.

Also I don't believe your sources about leaving the wifi on saving battery. That makes no sense to me. unless you turn the phone on and off all the time.

Commie mutant time! U r guay.

3:18 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It is a nice MP3 and video player. But anyway, I was just replying to your Wifi sleep thing: it probably won't help much, because, if a thief won't put in a SIM card, then will he connect it to a Wifi connection?

@Cerberus sure, he might

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 They said it was counter intuitive, look it up.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Right, meant something else that I don't remember now.

@Cerberus the assumption is that your sleeping phone transmits lots of data while sleeping and that it takes more power to do so over 3g/4g than wifi. I don't buy it. besides your phone is still going to be keeping its cell connection open.

yes, transmitting data over cell takes more power because you have to transmit farther. Fine. But how much data is your phone pulling down while it's sleeping at home? Enough to matter? Enough to counteract the fact that you're using two radios instead of one?

I am very skeptical of that claim.

Maybe I should post it on skeptics.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Well, if Wifi is asleep, perhaps that means that the phone can't turn it on by itself while it is asleep?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It's not so much the data.

Maintaining a 3G-connection takes up much more power than maintaining Wifi, and it becomes really a huge battery drain when your 3G has a bad connection.

@Cerberus Well, the phone could partially wake-up and turn it on.

3:23 PM

@Cerberus blah blah blah blah get to the point.

@Cerberus how much do you have to maintain it? If no data is being transmitted, I doubt it uses much power at all.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 One might expect that, but...then what does "Wifi is not awake" mean?

Especially if you're staying in one place.

@KitFox I know!! I'm still halfway.

@Cerberus "wifi is not awake"?

Wifi is either on or off.

3:25 PM

@Cerberus And the woman eating next to him who has obviously heard the story a thousand times.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I believe 3G uses significantly more power to stay connected than Wifi, perhaps twice as much even? But I think it is still very little under normal cirumstances, so the difference won't make that much of a difference compared to what other things there are that drain your battery. It's just an optimization thing. However, when you have bad 3G reception, that's a different story.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It could be some state where the OS allows scanning available Wifi connections when it needs data? I don't know what that setting means.

@KitFox Haha, oh, the joys of marriage!

@Cerberus Remember: the phone's power use on a cell connection is pretty much all in transmitting packets to far-away receivers. Wifi receivers are close-by so they operate at a lower power level.

Yes.

@Cerberus What setting?

But scanning for a lock-on takes lots of power for 3G, if it can't find a decent tower.

I've seen it happen to my phone in the woods.

3:28 PM

@Cerberus why would it be any different than scanning for any cell tower activity? i.e. to receive calls

@Cerberus "So I pull the call log, and I'm like WTF, Sarah, who is this Buck guy?"

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Cell tower scanning also takes up lots of power if you have bad reception, but 3G is apparently worse. They say that's why browsing on your phone uses up extra power, because the 3G needs to scan for new towers all the time.

@KitFox Huh, what? Oh, I should watch the rest of the video, this is getting interesting...

@Cerberus no, browsing on your phone uses power because you're transmitting data... if you're in one place it's not going to hand-off to another tower

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I don't understand this.

@Cerberus No, that would be if it were interesting.

3:32 PM

Browsing on your phone uses more power on the train than at home, on average, because of the constant tower switching. Even having the phone asleep in the train takes more power, because the phone function needs to scan a lot too.

@Cerberus When you're actually using a connection and you're not physically moving, your phone is not trying to hand off the connection to other towers on a constant basis. It is, however, trying to send data to the connected tower in order to actually do the browsing.

@KitFox Ohh I see.

@Cerberus yes but I'm talking about when you're at home, or anywhere you have wi-fi

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes, so?

my phone is sitting on my desk. It is not switching between towers

3:32 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Then I am lost.

"And then Sarah was all like 'That's right, bitch, I'm sleeping with the preacher man!'"

And it didn't have anything to do with stealing phones at all.

Haha, what preacher man?

@Cerberus We are talking about wi-fi compared to cell. Not cell compared to no-cell.

@Cerberus I don't know. They were at a church.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Let me quote myself, then:

8 mins ago, by Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I believe 3G uses significantly more power to stay connected than Wifi, perhaps twice as much even? But I think it is still very little under normal cirumstances, so the difference won't make that much of a difference compared to what other things there are that drain your battery. It's just an optimization thing. However, when you have bad 3G reception, that's a different story.

> But I think it is still very little under normal cirumstances [sic] ...

3:34 PM

@Cerberus So why are you arguing with me then

You were!

Let me quote you:

Oh, I like that.

5 mins ago, by Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Cell tower scanning also takes up lots of power if you have bad reception, but 3G is apparently worse. They say that's why browsing on your phone uses up extra power, because the 3G needs to scan for new towers all the time.

Oh, oops. I thought I had typed "on the train" there.

3:36 PM

how is your phone, at home, not travelling, always using the same towers, scanning for 3g but not transmitting lots of data (because it's sleeping, remember), going to save battery with wifi on

I meant "on your phone on the train".

Tower hop.

yes, but browsing on the train with your wifi on (but presumably disconnected) is worse for battery than browsing on the train with your wifi off.

I accidentally the focus of my sentence there.

4

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes, so?

I just don't think there's a reasonable circumstance where most people will benefit from "wifi always on" saving battery.

3:38 PM

Well, there are 1.) people who commute for two hours a day, and 2.) people who have bad reception at home?

@Cerberus 1) commuting with "wifi always on" will waste your battery, because you won't have any wifi to use but you'll keep scanning to use it

The essential premise is that leaving Wifi on v. Wifi off uses very, very little power, ceteris paribus.

2) your cell radio will still try to scan for towers for calls.

@Cerberus That is false. Using wifi uses power.

And using power != saving power

But apparently not much.

no, it's significant

3:39 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 That's ceteris paribus.

@Cerberus I don't speak latin

?

This is not a common phrase? All things being equal.

@Cerberus never heard it before

Sorry, it is common in German and Dutch.

Mitch

@Cerberus and googlable too.

3:41 PM

@Mitch Well, I don't want to distract Mr S here.

Mitch

it works in english but is not terribly common. mutatis mutandis is slightly more common.

But anyway, I still think that Wifi only saves you power when you're actually sending data.

Mitch

@Cerberus I'd prefer to be distracted. More lego pictures.

I don't have any Lego pix. Will this do?

@Vitaly would like it, I think.

Haha yes, I know that one. Great.

And very true.

3:42 PM

In fact, I may have stolen it from him.

Vitaly

Mar 14 at 20:40, by Robusto

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It is possible. It all depends on the expected power drains of the various radios under various circumstances.

OK, Robusto then.

Why do they put him in such an ugly car anyway?

Our queen has a carriage that is most probably also bullet proof.

@Cerberus Possible? I won't rule it out. Likely? I doubt it.

3:45 PM

@Cerberus I guess the Popemobile is supposed to be God-y instead of just gaudy

Yes, but it is...Kit proof?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I know nothing about power drains except what I read, so I can't help you there. But there appeared to be some kind of consensus.

@KitFox That's Princess Maxima. You'd like her.

I'd probably like her a lot.

3:46 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Gody? It's Goddamnugly!

You'd probably have an interesting factoid about her

I might just, at that.

She is very friendly, laughs a lot.

A bit emotional.

And she's purdy.

In a good way.

Yup.

3:48 PM

But I couldn't take worrying about my hats.

Her approval ratings are almost as high as the Queen's, I think.

I'm just not cut out to be the lover of a Princess.

@KitFox But a hat would look lovely on you!

But I couldn't think about lovely stylish hats.

So I would commit some grave error.

Like forgetting to change my hat for tea.

And it would be a huge scandal.

Oh yes, you really need a good tea hat

and it's different for cream tea and scones

3:49 PM

Oh dear.

I'm sure I'd never get it straight.

@KitFox Your staff would take care of that. Your ladies in waiting.

Do you think Maxima knew all that?

How am I going to have ladies in waiting?

She's just a commoner!

I'm just a commoner.

So was she, and it didn't stop her.

I wonder whether the first gay royal wedding will be.

3:51 PM

So you think she'd slum it with a poor American housewife?

We've already had a royal gym-instructor wedding. The Norwegians, that is.

@KitFox She's from your supercontinent, so that'll be all right.

I'm pretty sure Prince Charles is queerer than a three-dollar bill.

You think so?

He's just English.

lol

I hope so, for his sake.

3:53 PM

Hah.

And poor Camilla?

Where is she to go?

back to the stable?

Fie!

I didn't just!

What are you saying?

What everyone was thinking

3:54 PM

You...republican!

What's wrong with her?

@Cerberus what? don't be silly. The Queen doesn't like her either

Oh, thank goodness.

actually, I don't dislike her. I was just playing up to popular opinion

Why doesn't the Queen like her?

She made Diana's life a living hell. Those meanies.

3:55 PM

Did she?

How?

And Diana was the one who had to have sexual relations with the Gay Frog Prince.

Aww.

lol

I hope Maxima's eldest will be lesbian.

why do you want gay royalty?

3:57 PM

It's fun.

True

It would be fun if Harry turned out to like boys

I don't want commoners, but perhaps an adopted Chinese princess would also be nice.

What will happen when there is an openly gay monarch? They will have problems with maintaining their hereditary succession.....

@MattЭллен You think he might?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Naahhh there are Ways.

He's been on-and-off with that tramp for ages.

3:58 PM

@Cerberus Not really. It's just a thought

Which tramp?

@Cerberus Well, there are ways, but still... how they handle it will be interesting.

I don't know anything about royal houses I guess.

the very notion of hereditary succession is such an anachronism

I can imagine the queue to be a royal surrogate would be huge

4:00 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes, interesting, certainly. But they don't need any children. There are enough relatives.

Like with Elizabeth I

Haha, what?

@Cerberus perhaps

@Cerberus She had no children

Perhaps?

What do you mean?

@MattЭллен So...?

MetaEd

4:00 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yeah, hereditary [Bush] succession [Clinton] is not a problem in an enlightened [Kennedy] country like [Roosevelt] the USA.

That happens all the time. The heir presumptive gets the throne.

1 min ago, by Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes, interesting, certainly. But they don't need any children. There are enough relatives.

I was backing up your statement

Ah OK.

@MetaEd Haha, nice.

At least we have never had two PMs from the same family.

I think we have...

I guess the US are a bit more traditional than we in some cases.

4:02 PM

@MetaEd hereditary succession isn't what's happening there. The problem in the US is that too much of the political process is controlled by money, which IS heredetarily succeeded.

Are the Clintons so rich?

@Cerberus rich enough

MetaEd

It's as much a matter of being born and bred to politics as anything. The English monarchy just makes it more explicit.

But there are a hundred thousand rich enough...

How rich?

@MetaEd Yes, connections and upbringing help.

@Cerberus Well, it's money and connections.

4:04 PM

But is it your own money or fundraising?

But once you have money and connections it's much easier to maintain those. However, that doesn't mean that it strictly follows.

@Cerberus fundraising is a function of connections

Exactly.

So...

like the guy who runs theoatmeal.com, he raised $200k by accident the other day

he was aiming for $20k

How much does it matter in America whether you have one million or a hundred, if you want to become president, as compared to connections?

@Cerberus money makes it easier to make connections

4:05 PM

Yes, but how much do you need?

JSBձոգչ

the two are so highly correlated that i doubt it's possible to separate them

you need to raise millions and millions

it doesn't have to be your own money, though

@Cerberus There isn't some magic number.

But surely it helps if you have a million of yourself to start with.

@Cerberus nowmagazine.co.uk/celebrity-news/536518/…

Anyway, I'm going to get lunch. be back later.

4:06 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 D'oh, but there is a point where the marginal profits start to level out.

@Cerberus If you had no money, you could still try to make connections, and build yourself up that way. But if you have SOME money, it's easier, and if you have LOTS of money it's even easier.

but some really really rich people have tried to become president and failed consistently

@KitFox Ahh I see.

Isn't it such that whoever raises the most money is the most likely to win?

but anyway, lunch.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Exactly. I was just wondering how much a hundred million v. one million matters compared to connections.

As in chances.

4:09 PM

@Cerberus I don't think it's quantifiable.

@KitFox Oh, I read about that just this week.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 No, it isn't, not for humans. But it would be interesting to get a clearer picture of the relative importance.

Stop it and let the man have lunch!

Here, most ministers are not rich at all.

The PM isn't rich at all.

He goes to parliament by bike.

Only because he lives around the corner, I believe. But still.

MetaEd

@KitFox releases maglock

Dammit, he escaped.

4:17 PM

...dynatherms connected...

My son has been into Voltron lately.

It's so very awful. So much awfuller than I remember.

And the song over and over in my head.

I dreamt about Voltron Beyblades last night.

Another random person stopping in to ask me what to do about my neighbor not being in her office.

She was a good smelling pineapple though, so I cut her some slack.

Her Windsong is staying on my mind.

►

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇: Look at this. My phone has been connected to Wifi all the time, no doubt used some data; 3G used no data:

So having the mobile connection on uses thee times as much power as having Wifi on, even when Wifi uses data.

This was over a period of about 4 hours.

user19161

I have capped for the day, thanks for your support.

This is from yesterday.

user19161

4:32 PM

@MattЭллен I thought it was the ten tenors at first!

That mobi.mgeek thing is actually Dolphin, by the way: for some reason it gets registered under the file name of an add-on (not always the same add-on).

user19161

@MattЭллен Sorry but it sounds like a terrible song on a first hearing!